$600K Day: Advertorials, Testing & Teams | Jason Kutasi - Q&A

0:00But what was your total spend yesterday

0:03across all brands?

0:04>> It was just over 600,000 yesterday.

0:07>> Yeah, it was a big [ __ ] day.

0:09>> I've got a very special guest, an

0:11absolute inner marketing advertising

0:14legend with me, Jason Koutasi, someone I

0:16connected with like two two years ago. I

0:18met his wife as a am maybe three years

0:21ago, but I actually didn't get a chance

0:23to meet him until he showed up in Vegas

0:24one day after not too long after your

0:28scholastic exit, right?

0:29>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:31>> So, fill everyone in. How how did you

0:33get to spending 600k a day where which

0:37you did yesterday like backtrack so

0:39everyone knows who you are and then I

0:41know you've got some awesome gems that

0:43you we kind of previewed in our bullet

0:45points.

0:46>> Okay. Yeah. So, I'll I'll go through the

0:47background quick. I'm sure guys have

0:49heard me talk about it before, so I'll

0:50just go really fast. Um, most my career

0:54hedge funds, private equity, uh, joined

0:56a startup that we, uh, exited to

0:59Scholastic, which was a digital

1:00marketing platform. Then I cut my teeth.

1:03I got a job working with Akitiff. Um,

1:06saw how much money affiliates were

1:07making and I wrote an advertorial that

1:11just uh, ended up smashing for Hippo.

1:15um running Yahoo Gemini only and then um

1:23>> 2015

1:24I think I think it was 2015 2014

1:27something like that and uh yeah and so I

1:31had this crazy idea that if I wrote an

1:33advertorial that increased conversion

1:35rate and gave it to all the affiliates

1:37my commission would be higher which is

1:39true but if you run your own traffic you

1:41make more money. Um, and then we just

1:43focused on Yahoo for two years. Um, and

1:46then got into,

1:48>> yeah, dude, we the largest advertiser on

1:50Yahoo for two years. It was great. I

1:51had, but like we just knew that traffic

1:54channel like nobody's business. And um,

1:58then we got into Meta. My dad loves to

2:00remind me that for like the first 90

2:02days I couldn't get Meta to work. I was

2:04like, dude, Meta just doesn't work. And

2:05he's just like, you got to you just got

2:07to keep going. And then have into Meta.

2:09So then we started the kids book

2:10business after some policy issues and uh

2:13exited that to Scholastic. Um and then

2:16after that we ran affiliate for a little

2:18bit.

2:20Uh me and my partner at the time and his

2:22right hand and um and then we flipped to

2:25an agency model and I just wanted to be

2:27paid for my time instead of the roller

2:30coaster of the affiliate. That's

2:31probably like the most common question

2:32is like yeah but like you make so much

2:34more money as an affiliate and whatever.

2:36By the way, you can like you totally

2:38can. But for me, at least where I was in

2:42my life two years ago, you know,

2:44married, wife was pregnant, you know, I

2:47got two kid two under two. Well, the

2:502-year-old turned two yesterday, so I

2:51can't say that anymore. And I just

2:53didn't want those like, you know, the

2:55highs and lows of the the the affiliate

2:57the affiliate game, which I still get,

2:59right? like even a day like yesterday or

3:01there's days where [ __ ] shits the bed. I

3:04don't like to see red on the dashboard.

3:07And so anyway, so we kicked it over to

3:08agency about 2 years ago and um

3:13it was supposed to just be like this

3:16little thing until we did the next thing

3:19and then this thing became the thing.

3:21And I think the big thing that really

3:23changed for us is we had a big New York

3:25agency take a run at us uh last year. it

3:27was an aquire for me to run a

3:29performance division. Um, and you know,

3:33very big agency and they didn't have one

3:35and a bunch of their customers were

3:36asking about it.

3:39And so when that number came through, I

3:41was like, "Holy [ __ ] like you can make

3:44a lot of money with an agency from the

3:46equity side of things." And so for me

3:49now it's like how do we grow this agency

3:52and sort of perfect it and make money

3:54along the way? I mean, at some point if

3:56somebody wants to come in and pick us

3:57off, they can. Um, with the, you know,

4:00the north star being a a house on Lake

4:03Austin. So, that's the that's the north

4:05star.

4:06>> Do you do you ever see yourself running

4:08affiliate stuff on the side or would it

4:10become more of a distraction at this

4:12point?

4:13>> You know, it's that's a really good

4:15question. Um, I know a lot of offer

4:18owners that have affiliates, right? I've

4:21just been around a minute and so we do

4:24get hit up still to this day less less

4:27so today. But like we still get hit up

4:30where it's like I got this offer like we

4:32don't want to use you as an agency. Um

4:35do you want to run affiliate? And every

4:36once in a while there'll be an offer and

4:38I'm like [ __ ] like I don't know. I feel

4:41like I could totally smash this but I

4:43feel like it would be a distraction to

4:46the end goal. And so I say, "No,

4:49in my pos my general position is is that

4:52if you do a good job as an agency, it's

4:55cheaper for the client because as an

4:58affiliate, I'm not operating at 10%."

5:00Cuz you're going to have up days and

5:02down days, right? So you're trying to

5:03get 20, 30%, 50, 100%. And so for us, if

5:08we're scaling, 10%'s way cheaper. Why

5:12why do those big advertisers and brands

5:15not want you as an agency if it if it in

5:18theory it's cheaper? Is it just because

5:20they don't want any downside?

5:22>> Yeah. Yep. They don't want any downside.

5:25And you know, I think the biggest thing

5:27that we go through as an agency is

5:32like everybody's had a bad agency

5:34experience, you know, and it's um you

5:38know, there's clients that we've had

5:40where we haven't performed. Um but I I'm

5:44okay if a client churns

5:47if I feel we left it all on the field

5:50and like there's nothing else we can do.

5:52And sometimes we will turn that client

5:55ourselves where I was like, "Hey, like

5:57you're taking some of the guys on the

5:58bench because we only have so many

6:00people. Yes, you can hire more, but at

6:01any given point your supply is

6:03effectively fixed."

6:06And so like if you have a client that's

6:07not scaling, then like that's where we

6:10make our money is is when we scale. So

6:12like if I can't scale it, the

6:14opportunity cost sucks. Um,

6:17but I I will say I've said this before

6:20uh giving a talk. Um, I only know this

6:22metric because of that acquisition. Um,

6:26but in well I I learned a bunch of stats

6:30by the way. When you go through due

6:31diligence and you look in a mirror, you

6:32learn a lot of stuff. But at that time,

6:35every single client who had churned

6:37referred us after they churned. It was

6:40100%. Damn.

6:42>> And yeah, and so

6:45look, sometimes you don't crack an

6:46offer, right? You know, this is an

6:48affiliate. Like, why were you able to

6:51crack an offer that somebody else

6:53couldn't or vice versa? So, the offer

6:56that we scaled yesterday, um, and I

6:58won't talk too much about the details.

6:59It's not my place as not being the

7:01advertiser. Um,

7:04we were the seventh, uh, group in to run

7:08that. And um then we started

7:12>> as an agency or they took in like a

7:13>> we started as an affiliate. We started

7:15as an affiliate.

7:16>> Okay.

7:16>> So we ran that offer. We've run that

7:18offer for two years um more actually. Um

7:23and I knew every other guy who tested

7:25it. And the craziest part is is we were

7:28running um another offer and it was

7:30super choppy. And so I was looking for

7:32something else and I was like give me a

7:33link. I called the owner. I was like

7:35give me a link. And he's like no offer

7:38doesn't work. Nobody can make it work.

7:40Uh, one of the guys was my older at hand

7:43who's a very very good media buyer and

7:46day one it was dollar in $2 out and I

7:49was like, "Oh [ __ ] here we go." Yeah.

7:51Yeah. Yeah.

7:52>> What What do you think you did you were

7:54able to do differently? Cuz this guy is

7:57probably connected to other big dogs

7:58like you that know their [ __ ]

8:00>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, he is.

8:01>> What separated your your ability to get

8:03results?

8:05Um,

8:08I think that we knew the vertical really

8:11well and even before the book business,

8:14we did like we've always done well in

8:16this vertical and so

8:19we literally started with old winners

8:23from three years more five years prior.

8:27So we just basically grabbed those and

8:29ran them. We already had all the

8:30advertorials. We already had all the

8:32copy. Like we just had everything.

8:35>> The vertical just made sense to you.

8:38>> Like it's just like your thing almost,

8:40right? In a way.

8:40>> Yeah. Yeah. So I think like even when I

8:43was an affiliate,

8:45you think about like there's offers that

8:48would move across my desk where I was

8:49like I don't know how to run this. So,

8:51there was an offer years ago called uh I

8:54think it's probably still run. It's

8:55called Yoga Burn and there was a big

8:58offer on ClickBank at the time and I got

9:01introduced to the owner. I jump on a

9:03jump on a call with him and I was like,

9:06you know, about and he's talking about

9:08how amazing this offer is and how sexy

9:10it is and how much money these

9:11affiliates are making and Jason, you got

9:12to run this thing. And I was like, I

9:15don't even know where the [ __ ] to start

9:16with yoga. Like, like where do I like

9:19where do I start? I don't do yoga. Like

9:22I don't do I talk about stretching. Is

9:24it like for back? I can do back pain,

9:26but like I just And so what I realized

9:29is when the ideas and the angles just

9:31aren't popping,

9:33I can't run it. And I and I take that

9:35same approach today with clients who

9:38come to the agency. So as an agency,

9:41like we see a lot broader sample set of

9:45offers than I think what we used to see

9:48as an affiliate.

9:49interesting. And

9:50>> yeah, and so if you get something that's

9:52like totally random,

9:54um

9:56I can all of a sudden go like, "Oh, I

9:58know exactly what I would do." And I

10:00like I would try this angle and I'd run

10:01this kind of a funnel and boom, boom,

10:03boom, boom. Dude, like I'm in. But we

10:08have had those where I was like, I don't

10:09even know how I like where would I

10:10start? And so if it's a challenge, I'm

10:14just not going to run it. But would you

10:17I guess at this point you you can pick

10:19and choose what you want, but like let's

10:21let's go back

10:23>> to your pure affiliate pre- agency time.

10:26Would you if something was like new like

10:29like with what I find like the easy

10:32layups that don't always scale in my

10:34experience is the stuff that's like new

10:35in the marketplace like it's like a in

10:37the lead genen there'll be like new

10:39offers that didn't exist before or they

10:41they were like they gone away because of

10:42interest rates or whatever and they come

10:44back and it's like it's almost like a

10:46market timing rather than like being a

10:48great unique mechanism or something and

10:50then you it's almost like you put it up

10:52and it just kind of works. you you why

10:54do you why do you avoid newer stuff that

10:57could potentially be those home runs

10:59that are just like undiscovered?

11:01>> Oh, we dumped. I love new [ __ ] So, in

11:05fact, like

11:07this is one of the harder pieces I think

11:09about being, you know, being an agency.

11:11So, if you brought me something new, I

11:13can send some clicks and if it's not

11:15working, um, I can go away. But like

11:18I've now made a commitment to you to

11:20like try to, you know, to try to make it

11:22work. But if something is brand new,

11:24it's going to take a little bit of work,

11:26right? And as a as a a personal brand,

11:30like we just don't rip. Like we never

11:32have. So it's not like I have to go look

11:34for spy tools anyway. And like, oh, this

11:36ad's working. I'm going to use this to

11:38jump off. I'm going to rip this guy's.

11:40Like I just don't do that. Um, mostly

11:42because it happened to me so much that

11:45like it just I I don't want it to happen

11:47to other people. Um,

11:49>> but the only time that that does work is

11:52like

11:56you you have to have seasoned operators

11:58behind you. So, we have tried it with

12:01guys who have new offers, but they're

12:03not seasoned. So, they're not patient.

12:06they're not they're not upholding their

12:09end of the bargain on the product

12:12marketing side. And so that's typically

12:15where stuff uh stuff falls away. And so,

12:19you know, there was an offer that that

12:22moved across my desk and it was um

12:26it was a bisop offer where you know uh

12:29but like how do I call like it's like

12:31white hat bisop. So the guys do courses

12:35all over the country every weekend

12:37licensed in 50 states like the whole

12:38thing. And he's like, "All right, well I

12:40want to do a deal with like I want to

12:43set up a VSSL and run that. Will will

12:45you run it for us?" And he brought in a

12:48guy to help on the JV and that guy was

12:53too busy to fix all the problems in the

12:55funnel. And so

12:58anyway, we ended up pausing there and

13:00he's just like, "Look, this guy's not

13:01helping. I don't have time to do it, nor

13:03do I know what I'm doing. And so, like,

13:06what do we do? And so, we've had a

13:09couple of those instances. And I think

13:11that I don't know with any business that

13:14you have, you have to like figure out

13:16who your ideal customer is. And so, that

13:19took some time to figure out like what

13:21do I need you as a client to to kind of

13:24have dialed? Um, but new's the best,

13:27dude. Like, you get a new offer that

13:29works. I mean that is somebody asked me

13:32I think yesterday on Twitter it's like

13:34like what's the new ATM? The new ATM is

13:36the same as the old ATM which is an

13:39offer that works. That's like really

13:40what it is.

13:42>> What I know we're going to talk about a

13:45couple of more technical things on our

13:47list

13:49testing structure landers

13:53>> uh how we're looking to reorganize the

13:55team and then the last one is how you're

13:57looking to comp them out. Let's talk

14:00let's talk team first.

14:02>> Yeah.

14:02>> Like what's how are you able to manage

14:04effectively manage 600k a day in ad

14:07spend?

14:09>> I mean yesterday everybody's running

14:11around with their hair on fire. Like

14:13let's not let's not kid ourselves. I

14:15mean I hit refresh so many times. Like

14:16we had to dupe out so much [ __ ] Like

14:19you know campaigns weren't named

14:21appropriately. Like [ __ ] broke. Um but

14:24everything you know everything worked.

14:27Um I think in terms of the team

14:29structure, the way we started was

14:33um we're kind of on our third about to

14:36move into our fourth evolution of team

14:38structures. So when we started,

14:42we had the same sort of team structure I

14:45did as an affiliate, which was just like

14:47you get a guy and the guy writes some

14:49copy, makes some images, writes the

14:51lander and runs the traffic and he gets

14:53um you know uh what were we doing? 20%

14:56of profit.

14:57>> So, junior

14:59>> and within the agency.

15:01>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um,

15:04>> so I guess that's that answers the first

15:06point. You you don't think pure bases

15:09enough to hire the real like the best.

15:12You needed you need performance in

15:14sales.

15:16>> Yeah. Because I view I view marketers in

15:19this role as salespeople. And so you

15:23have inbound and outbound sales. Inbound

15:25sales, you could probably pay somebody

15:28uh you know a decent base and a little

15:31bit of percentage, but outbound sales,

15:33you need a hunter killer. And so like

15:36you need that person that wants to make

15:38a lot of money, is watching campaigns,

15:41is driving traffic. Like

15:45yeah, it's it's like more than just a

15:47job. I mean, and but it's sales too,

15:50right? So like there's the opportunity

15:52to make a lot of money working here and

15:55so that but that was just kind of the

15:57easiest. We had a smaller team I think

15:59at the end of

16:01let's see the beginning of last year I

16:03think we were eight I think

16:05>> and we ended last year with like 18

16:07>> something like that. So we were very

16:09small and then as we wanted to grow the

16:12team and we had more demand than the

16:15supply um another metric I learned from

16:17the due diligence piece we turned down

16:1949 clients through the first half of

16:22last year which is like unheard of on

16:24the agency side but like I was like I

16:26can't take you like I just don't have

16:27guys on the bench. So then we moved to a

16:30pod structure.

16:32So we basically took those guys who had

16:34all the skill sets, put them on top,

16:36copywriter, creative, sort of like um I

16:39forget the title or the the job title,

16:41but guys that are doing uploads and

16:43helping manage clips and media ops kind

16:46of a thing. We did that and um and then

16:51we grew out those pods and the

16:53efficiency just went to [ __ ] It just

16:56was not working.

16:58And so I blew that apart and I went back

17:01to what was working which was you know

17:04you casto are responsible for your

17:06campaigns and like let's just do that

17:09and then um we ran that for a little bit

17:12and then the idea was oh and then there

17:15were video guys and graphics guys like

17:17on those pods

17:19but it just it just didn't work. So what

17:22we then did was we broke people up into

17:25sort of what I consider an assembly

17:27line.

17:29And so you have like creative

17:31strategists.

17:33Uh we have an AI team. So the creative

17:35strategist will come up with the briefs,

17:36the angles, maybe they write their own

17:38copy. We AI [ __ ] goes back to the

17:41strategist for approval and sign off. We

17:43have guys that upload and run the media

17:45and stuff like that. And then we have

17:46graphics and video editors. Basically, I

17:50I view it as an assembly one

17:53>> and that's been working pretty well.

17:56>> Um,

17:57>> what who if if you were to plug me into

17:59like a like a this somewhat of a flat

18:02pyramid it sounds like rather than like

18:04the silos

18:06>> of the pods, what if I'm like

18:10>> upper position? I don't know what you

18:12would call it like senior something.

18:15What are my skill sets? And then who

18:17who's who's like my direct proponents in

18:19this factory process flow?

18:23>> Yeah. So um I actually don't know what

18:25the title is uh for this role but

18:27basically you're in charge of the

18:29marketing team. Um

18:30>> everyone

18:31>> Yeah. So it'll be like VP of marketing.

18:34Um we also have a client success team.

18:37So like most of our clients are very

18:40active on Slack or Telegram. So like we

18:42have a team that manages that puts

18:44together the reports those sorts of

18:46things and um you so you would have head

18:50of creative um head of [clears throat]

18:52AI doesn't really sit under you like the

18:55output does but that sits under uh head

18:58of uh development and tech um and then

19:03you have head of we were originally

19:06going to break up statics and video and

19:09so that's kind of merged. So you have

19:10like a creative lead and then you have a

19:12media buying lead. So what is that? So

19:14that's like four people um that sit

19:16under you. Um and then your you know

19:19your responsibility there

19:22is to just make sure that

19:26I don't it's more than just everybody's

19:28doing their job. Um which is a piece of

19:32it and it's more than just sort of

19:34project management which is another

19:35piece of it. So like with our clients,

19:38we have what we call the customer

19:40promise, which is like the minimum, not

19:42that we want to do the minimum minimum

19:45for you, but like what are the client

19:46expectations? And so, you know, it's a

19:49handful of net new concepts uh a week

19:52plus the iterations.

19:55So, did we hit it? Are we behind? Are we

19:57pacing to hit that on a Friday?

20:00And then performance as well. Like we're

20:02at the end of the day, we're performance

20:04shop. If I had my brothers though,

20:08I wish I was a branding agency and guys

20:10just came to me for reach and uh you

20:12know reach and awareness. Um that would

20:14that's like the most amazing thing. It's

20:16like I have a $100 million budget. Can

20:18you just run reach and awareness? And I

20:19was like burning money in my backyard

20:21happens to be one of my skills. So yes,

20:23I would I would love to. Um

20:26and so then like each one of those

20:28people is responsible for their for

20:30their teams. I think that, you know,

20:33growing a business, the biggest

20:35challenge or the biggest, I not even

20:37challenge, but like the biggest thing to

20:40learn is to trust your team and get out

20:42of the weeds sometimes.

20:44And um and I'm much better at it than I

20:48used to be. And I think it's one of the

20:50things that I coach up my team it, you

20:52know, it's sort of these leadership

20:54manager levels to really try and do. So

20:57your first inclination is to get in

20:59there and just do it and fix it. But

21:02there's no scale to that. And so you

21:05have to be able to rely on your team to

21:07do that. And by the way, if they can't

21:10do it or they they can't learn it or

21:13whatever, you got the wrong person on

21:15the team.

21:17And that's hard. Um it happens

21:20sometimes. But at the end of the day,

21:22like you know, you think about what is

21:26everybody's highest and best use. And

21:29so,

21:30you know, my highest and best use is

21:33getting out there doing sales, talking

21:35to people, shaking hands, kissing

21:36babies, thinking around like more macro

21:40strategies as opposed to like being in

21:43the weeds of a given campaign. I mean,

21:46look, yesterday I was in all the [ __ ]

21:48weeds. Um, and today I was too, but

21:50that's kind of like fun, I guess. Um,

21:54yeah. And then just it's really sort of,

21:56you know, relying on that relying on

21:58that team. And then under each one of

22:01those managers, you have people who are

22:04better than others. And I think one of

22:07the other, you know, examples that's

22:09hard, and I'm sure everybody on this

22:11call has heard this, but like if you're

22:13a a racehorse trainer and you got this

22:17pack of raceh horses, who do you spend

22:19time with? The horse at the front, the

22:21horse in the back, or the horse in the

22:23middle? And so, you know, we had some

22:26leadership changes uh a couple months

22:30ago. And a lot of it was like, you have

22:32to take care of the pack.

22:34And I just don't think that's true. Um,

22:37you need to identify who the next guy or

22:40or woman in the middle of the pack is

22:42going to be the next winner and who has

22:45those skills. Um, and you have to train

22:48those people up. You also have to

22:53make sure that the people in the middle

22:55like have the tools they need and feel

22:59I don't know like safe and supported but

23:02not in not like I'm IDM right like my

23:07job for the most part is to unblock you

23:10right train you and unblock you and so

23:12but like I don't want to spend time with

23:14the guy at the back like I the money's

23:16made with the dude up front but then who

23:18also, like I said, you have to identify

23:21who the people are in the middle of the

23:22pack that you can graduate to the front

23:24of the pack.

23:26>> Um, yeah, it's hard. It's the hardest

23:28thing.

23:29>> How many How many offers are is this

23:33head of everything overseen?

23:37>> About 20.

23:39>> Wow.

23:40>> Yeah. I mean, I can even with like a

23:43good team that's still like you're

23:45looking at 20 different like sets of

23:48KPIs, baseline metrics, like how

23:53>> I'm amazed this is worked better for you

23:55than the pod structure. I was I was

23:57having this conversation with Dennis

23:59>> last week

24:00>> and he was saying like pure pod like he

24:02goes like he doesn't let them talk to

24:04each other.

24:05>> Super interesting. And he also hires for

24:08the head of the pod. they're a a

24:11copywriter, then editing, then they have

24:13editing skills, and then he builds a

24:15team under them.

24:16>> So, we did that. Um, but it didn't work

24:18for us. And one of the big problems with

24:21that structure until your pod gets large

24:23enough where you have sort of like

24:26multiple people at every role. Um, I

24:29look at it this way. So, let's just

24:30assume for an easy example, I got four

24:33people in a pie and one guy quits. He

24:36dies, gets hit by a bus. Well, now I got

24:39a car with three wheels which goes

24:41nowhere. So now I need to bring in

24:44somebody new. Who trains them?

24:47Who trains them?

24:49>> You.

24:49>> And so that Yeah. And so in the new

24:52distributed structure,

24:54you know, that was one of the big

24:57things. So, it's like if I bring in a

24:58new marketing person, the, you know, or

25:01creative strategist or the VP of

25:03marketing's got to train them

25:05and watch them and well, they got other

25:07[ __ ] to do. I got other [ __ ] to do. And

25:10so, a lot of what this structure was

25:13about was around

25:15how do we constantly bring in new people

25:18and get them trained up or trained out,

25:19frankly.

25:21And so, you need somebody that's like

25:23really good at this one skill set. And I

25:26had this business coach and

25:29he's great. And when I was looking at

25:31sort of like switching the team

25:33structures

25:34for most of my career, I trained

25:37unicorns. I grew unicorns. I took I put

25:39up job posts for guys that were

25:42financial analysts or media analysts.

25:44That's what the job post was. Most of

25:45the guys we hired didn't even know this

25:47world existed.

25:49And but they were really good at the

25:50numbers.

25:52And so if you were good at the numbers

25:53and you could see the data and identify

25:55the problems, I'll I'll teach you what

25:57good looks like. I'll teach you how to

25:59write copy. I mean, my best media bar of

26:02all time was my old partner, Andre. And

26:05was his copy that great? No. He had

26:07moved from Russia, I think, like two

26:09years before. He had an English major

26:11actually in Russia, so his English was

26:14pretty good and and way better than he

26:16gives himself credit for. But his

26:18success came from being obsessed over

26:21the analytics,

26:23not from writing the very best copy

26:26or creating the best images. He was just

26:28obsessed so he could identify the

26:30problem and then work to find the

26:32solution for that problem. If you

26:34>> if you were to shut everything down now

26:37and have to start over as an affiliate,

26:39would you build the same structure or

26:41would you build a team more of like the

26:43pod structure?

26:46Um,

26:48I would build I would go back to the old

26:52structure of one dude is responsible for

26:55everything.

26:57Um, I think that to have a team of

27:00affiliates that's wildly successful,

27:04you

27:06you need absolute killers. Like, you

27:09need absolute killers. Now, we would

27:12still have like a video editor and

27:14stuff. Like I'm not expecting you to do

27:15that, but like you're making your own

27:17statics. And you know, when I think back

27:20like AI has only been here for like two

27:22years, right? Which is crazy. Which is

27:26crazy. Like my kids aren't going to know

27:28what it was like without AI. [ __ ]

27:30They're not even going to know what it's

27:31like with a self without a cell phone.

27:33Like you used to have a like a phone in

27:35your house you plugged into the wall and

27:37if you weren't there, nobody could get a

27:38hold of you. I'm like, that's right.

27:40That's right. Um, I was joking with my

27:43dad last night. My parents over for my

27:45my daughter's birthday and they're all

27:47recording videos of the of my daughter

27:50on the phone and I was like, "Hey, Dad,

27:52do you remember when I was a kid and you

27:54literally had like the VHS recorder in a

27:57bag on your shoulder with this camera?"

28:00And, you know, it's just it's a it's a

28:01totally different world. But if I look

28:04back on

28:06um you know my happiest time and best

28:10team running affiliate, I think we had

28:12eight guys. Um you know we had some some

28:14back office support and some you know a

28:17couple graphics guys I think. Um but

28:20dude it was like Wolf of Wall Street. It

28:22was like a boiler room dude. It was

28:23[ __ ] awesome. We were running super

28:26hard, making so much money. Everybody

28:28was making money, dude. It was it was

28:30great. Which reminds me of the story. I

28:32I went out on a second date with this

28:34woman at the time and it was when Wolf

28:36of Wall Street had come out and we walk

28:39out of the movie and we were in Santa

28:41Monica. Walk out of the movie and she's

28:43like, "What did you like?" I said, "What

28:45do you think of that movie?" And she's

28:46like, "This is it was horrible. It was

28:49absolutely horrible movie. Like he's

28:51like abusive and like like how do you

28:53what did you think?" I was like, "I want

28:55to go into the office right now. Like I

28:57want to go back to work." like it was I

29:00just loved it. And so I think you know

29:04an affiliate team is for the most part

29:09it's Navy Seals, special forces, special

29:11ops like you are ju you are just a

29:15killer and I think that that's I think

29:17that that's what it takes.

29:20>> Of those of those eight guys that were

29:21killers at your at the peak of your

29:23affiliate team, what were their like

29:25true skill sets?

29:29I think at the core they were

29:32analytical.

29:34I also think they all wanted to make a

29:36lot of money. Like you're not going to

29:38be successful working for a hedge fund

29:40if you just want a job, right? And I wor

29:43I worked for a hedge fund and I've

29:45worked in private equity and I've worked

29:46for REITs and like the like those guys

29:50just want to make money,

29:52>> make some money. Yeah.

29:54>> Yeah. I mean it's literally that and

29:56that's the com, you know, that's the

29:57common thread. It's the competitive

29:59nature.

30:00So, you know, with this leadership issue

30:02that we had at the beginning of the

30:04year,

30:06there was a argument I had which was I

30:09want everybody on the team to want to be

30:11the best and I want them to be killers.

30:13And they're like, you can't you can't

30:15build a company where it's just like

30:17everybody wants to be the guy. And I was

30:19like, let me reframe it. If we're a

30:22football team and you're one of the

30:25quarterbacks,

30:26I want guys who want to be the starting

30:29quarterback,

30:31right? I don't I don't need the guy that

30:32necessarily says like throw me the ball

30:34every time, right? But like I want to be

30:37the starter. I want to be the best. I

30:39want, you know, the most yardage, so on

30:40and so forth. I think it's that

30:42mentality. And then I also think

30:44selfishly,

30:46who do I want to surround myself with

30:48where I'm the happiest all the time,

30:50right? And so when the culture shifted a

30:52little bit in the beginning of the year,

30:55um I didn't like coming to work that

30:57much, like I just wasn't surrounded by

31:03people with the same energy that I had.

31:06Now when I made the change two months

31:09ago, same people changed the culture,

31:12changed the messaging I had in the in

31:14the company chats, like all of those

31:16things.

31:18like we had those people. They just like

31:20weren't riled up and inspired to like

31:23just crush. And so

31:27I don't know. I think it was I don't

31:28know how to say it and I I guess I've

31:30never really thought about how to say

31:32it, but

31:34like as a leader of any team or

31:37organization for that matter, like your

31:39job is to bring out the very best in

31:41people and bring out what you want for

31:44your company's culture. Now, did I

31:47expect that some people were going to go

31:48like, and I've had this on the affiliate

31:50side, by the way? Um, where they're

31:54like, "Yeah, dude. Like, this does not

31:55align." Like, I just, you know, my

31:58weekends are my weekends. And so, I'm

32:01like, "By the way, I totally get it.

32:02There's nothing wrong with that." But

32:04you understand that all the money's made

32:05on Saturday and Sunday, right? Like, you

32:07get that. And so those should be the

32:10days where you're the most excited and

32:12um you know you're hitting refresh and

32:15like

32:15>> well you need that you need them

32:17incentivized and aligned in that way

32:19too. That's that's where like a

32:20disconnect would be with having the

32:22killers versus

32:24just like someone that's skilled and

32:26wants a job.

32:27>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so, um, you

32:30brought up a another interesting

32:32question about like

32:34how do you handle that many offers,

32:36which was also this very interesting

32:38piece, uh, in terms of like how I think

32:41the next generation of the agency goes,

32:44which I got a bunch of [ __ ] on Twitter.

32:46I think it was last week or two weeks

32:47ago where I had this post and it was

32:49like, I think performance marketers are

32:52more important than creative

32:53strategists.

32:54And so, you know what? What I realized

32:58is that as an agency, in order to do

33:01right by your clients and to be able to

33:04handle a higher volume of offers with a

33:07lower headcount, like you can make a

33:10bunch of [ __ ] on AI and just like, you

33:12know, you're just you're try you're

33:13trying to hit a bottle on a on a fence

33:15post and you're just like just waving

33:18the freaking gun around hoping to hit

33:20it. But really what I think about is

33:25how do you move the bullets or how do

33:27you get closer to the target over time?

33:29And so a lot of what we do is we focus

33:31on what I call the smoke test. And so

33:34it's like does this angle have legs?

33:38Like are you even close? And so that's

33:42kind of that testing ethos. And then

33:44from there, as soon as you realize that

33:46something has legs,

33:48that's when you double down and you go

33:50kind of affiliate mindset and you're

33:52like, "Okay, I know that apples are

33:55going to do better than banana, so we're

33:57going all in on apples." And, you know,

34:00then we're just printing a bunch of

34:02stuff trying to figure it out. Is it

34:03apple slices, apple pie, apple sauce?

34:06Like, what is it? Um, but I'm like I'm

34:09trying to get closer to the target

34:13before I pull out the big guns, if you

34:15will.

34:16>> So, let's let's jump into testing

34:17structure. How what does this actually

34:19look like and be uh channel specific too

34:22if we talk different channels?

34:25>> Yeah. So, most of our traffic is on

34:26meta. Um, we'll start there and then

34:28we'll do some stuff with Google um as a

34:30deriv uh as a derivative of that.

34:35But

34:36m maybe it's best to start with like how

34:39I think about offers. I generally think

34:43that

34:44every offer

34:46solves five maybe 10 pain points just at

34:50the macro level and I'm thinking like

34:53you know sort of health and beauty um in

34:55this example

34:57and then you have this problem and then

34:59you have like how does the problem

35:01manifest itself for a given type of

35:04person and so and then like what's their

35:06desired outcome what's their future

35:08state what's the unique mechanism like

35:11how did they discover it? Um, you know,

35:14unique solution like you have a unique

35:17mechanism problem, unique mechanism

35:18solution. So, like I think of that in

35:20terms of copyrightiting. And so once you

35:23start to identify those, you know, those

35:26sort of individual sets, first of all,

35:28it gives you infinite angles, literally

35:30infinite.

35:31And then I'm just I'm starting with like

35:34the largest TAMs. So the first thing we

35:37do is like we spray wide with broad

35:40concepts.

35:42And so like does this even hit? And at

35:45this point I'm not even looking at being

35:49profitable. I'm not looking at click

35:52costs. I'm not looking at CPMs. I'm

35:55looking at funnel metrics around

35:57percentages decoupling

35:59the cost.

36:01So, for example, I have a campaign and I

36:04put it up and um you know, the purchase

36:07CPA is coming in at 100 and I'm I want

36:11to be a 50. The initiate checkout uh is

36:14coming in at uh let's see if I'm at 50,

36:17it's a 3 to one, let's call it 20 bucks,

36:19but it's coming in at 50. It's too high.

36:21I'm paying attention to those

36:22percentages because now I'm like, "Oh

36:25[ __ ] the percentages are on target."

36:28And if they are, now I know I have a CPC

36:31problem.

36:33And so I'm trying to identify sort of

36:35where those problems are. And so then if

36:37I'm like, all right, this idea is good,

36:40this concept is good, I'm going to slice

36:42it up and go deeper on that.

36:45And we do a lot of that with AI. Like a

36:48lot of it. Now the decisions in terms of

36:50are you using, you know, apples or

36:52oranges comes from the creative

36:54strategies at this point. But like

36:56they're picking sort of which direction

36:58they want to go and then we're just

37:01trying to get past that that smoke test.

37:03I got another buddy um I know he

37:05registered for this. I don't know if

37:07he's on the call or not, but um Nikki

37:09and he uses um test proof scale. And

37:13when he first described it to me, I was

37:15like, "Dude, it's so brilliant." And

37:18it's kind of obvious. And we were doing

37:19it anyway, but the way that he described

37:22it to me is I was like, "Oh [ __ ] that's

37:24like exactly what we need to be doing or

37:26should be doing." Um and so for us, we

37:30primarily start with statics. And I'm

37:33doing that because I'm testing concepts.

37:35And so I think a lot of people think

37:37about, oh well video's the way and like

37:39we're going to do this, you know, these

37:41videos and we're going to test with

37:43that. And I'm like, yeah, maybe if you

37:45know an offer or vertical really well

37:47and you already know what works, but if

37:49you don't or there's some like new lead

37:52you've never run or a new unique

37:54mechanism you've never run,

37:57you you're just adding so many more

37:59variables to your testing structure that

38:02are unnecessary.

38:03So, I mean, you can pick something as

38:06simple as like, who's the actor in your

38:08video? Is it an old woman? Is it a young

38:10woman? Are they tall, short, black,

38:12white, Hispanic? Like, I what do they

38:14sound like? What's their hair color look

38:16like? You know, for anybody that's run

38:18static images of just faces, you know

38:20that not all faces are the same, right?

38:23What do they sound like? How do they

38:24speak? And so, for me, I realized the

38:27most important thing there um is the

38:30script. And so like after we get a

38:33concept that's like looking good and

38:35it's working and this isn't a cost issue

38:37by the way. This is a methodical

38:39approach to cracking offers so that you

38:41can rinse and repeat it and do it

38:42repeatedly. Um and so after we have a

38:46concept and like hey this is looking

38:48good then we'll move to basically like

38:51two-minute yapper videos. And all I'm

38:53doing there is I'm testing the script.

38:56That's it.

38:57So you found the con conceptual

39:00conceptual idea around the script and

39:02now you're like split testing scripts is

39:05level two.

39:06>> Yeah, that's correct. And then you

39:08figure out that this works. So then what

39:10do you do next? Well, now I'm going to

39:11go make the polished video. Like we had

39:14god, when was this? Probably like 90

39:16days ago. Uh one of the guys is an

39:20amazing copywriter,

39:22creative strategist. He's also He then

39:25grabs like one of the very best editors

39:28and the dude just literally made like an

39:30Academy Award-winning

39:32ad. It was beautiful. It was so awesome.

39:36It was so engaging and it flopped so

39:38hard after it took 3 days to do.

39:41>> Wow.

39:41>> And I was like, but you didn't know if

39:44we knew the concept worked, but we

39:46didn't know if the script worked. And so

39:48like that's the core of it. I mean, even

39:51a movie today is all about the script.

39:53Unless it's like Transformers and you're

39:54just blowing [ __ ] up or or um what's the

39:57alien one that was like 3D

40:00um Avatar, you know, some something like

40:02that. But like people are going to see

40:04that movie differently. And I think that

40:07and I suspect as people are listening to

40:09me talk about this, they're like, "Oh,

40:11but like your job is to make money."

40:12Like, and it just seems like you're

40:14taking a lot of time to to do this. We

40:17don't move as fast as affiliates on the

40:19front end. We don't. But we also like

40:23don't show up and then disappear. Like I

40:25also can't do that. I was like I don't

40:27know dude. I spent like five grand, 10

40:28grand, whatever. It didn't work. I'm out

40:31right. Like I can't do that. And so you

40:35just have to be more methodical about

40:36the process

40:38until you get to a point where

40:40something's working or multiple things

40:42are working. You hope. And at that point

40:46then we go back to that affiliate

40:48mindset of like let's just go go and

40:51you're cranking.

40:52>> Yeah. Yeah.

40:54>> Yeah. And so like I was talking to one

40:57of the guys on the team about this this

40:58morning on the video. So like you have a

41:00yapper video. The script is working. You

41:02make a better video that's working. You

41:04got a hook that works with it. What do

41:06you do now? Well, now I'm just rotating

41:09through all the avatars on the base

41:10video. I'm changing who they are, where

41:12they are, how they how they look, how

41:14they sound, and I'm iterating a [ __ ] ton

41:17of hooks, and all the testing budgets

41:19that we're using are way bigger because

41:21I have confidence. And so, like, this

41:25piece hasn't changed from an affiliate

41:27to an agency owner. But I think our

41:30primary goal or primary metric is to

41:32decouple risk, right? It's like I was

41:35saying at the top of the call about the

41:36media buyer who was running this traffic

41:38on a big day yesterday was like, "Dude,

41:40this doesn't [ __ ] go well. Like, you

41:42know, we're we're screwed." And I'm

41:43like, "We had so much headroom

41:45yesterday. Like, [ __ ] would have to go

41:47really really bad." And plus, I felt

41:50that there was a finite window given all

41:52the business managers went down and a

41:54bunch of affiliates just aren't running.

41:57Um, a lot of our competition went away.

42:00And so I was like, "Dude, we got like a

42:02week, I bet." So, um, let's sprint.

42:07>> So, if you could rank for me, you've

42:08already kind of hit a few of these

42:10levels. Yeah.

42:12>> Of not just the testing from A to Z, but

42:15also it sounds like where the leverage

42:17is in the outcome.

42:19>> So, first, you're looking for the

42:20conceptual angle.

42:22>> Yeah.

42:22>> Second, you're you're taking that

42:24conceptual angle and then split testing

42:26actual scripts within that conceptual

42:29angle. after we after we prove the angle

42:31with statics and copy and landers and

42:34all of that, like we're super lander

42:36heavy, like super lander heavy. Um, I

42:40guess we just always have been. And I

42:42also feel like Meta is putting a lot

42:43more weight on the the landers than they

42:45used to. It's a hunch. I don't know this

42:47for a fact, but I guess

42:48>> this be like advertorial cuz they're not

42:49giving you control of their store like

42:51>> Yeah, that's correct. That's correct.

42:53Yeah, advertorial.

42:55Um, you know, and that's part of our,

42:57you know, our unique selling proposition

42:59is, you know, we do advertorials and

43:02most of our clients are responsible for

43:04providing advertorials to their

43:06agencies, which is like crazy to me, but

43:08whatever. Um, cuz it's such an important

43:12piece of it. And so, you know, we

43:18closer, you know, closer to center. The

43:21other thing that we don't have that

43:22affiliates do is if I don't scale this

43:25up really [ __ ] fast, there's going to

43:27be 10 affiliates behind me and they're

43:29going to take the cap. They're going to

43:30rip my ads. And you know that like if

43:34you're running an offer and you get a

43:36certain amount of distance behind uh in

43:38front of uh the other affiliates, it's

43:40kind of hard for them to catch up. Um,

43:43and so, you know, if you're spending 20,

43:4530, 50,000 a day on an offer, the guy

43:49who wants to jump into it, even if he

43:51rips you, is going to be challenged.

43:54And so, um, yeah, I mean, back in the

43:58day as an affiliate, uh, you know, we

44:00only ran exclusive offers. Um, you know,

44:03it took us some time to get the name

44:05that like people knew that we could

44:07drive uh volume,

44:11but I was like, "Yeah, I want it

44:12exclusive." And if we don't hit an

44:15agreed upon threshold, you can open it

44:16up. Like, I'm never going to block you

44:18from making money, but like I don't want

44:20to get ripped. I don't want to compete

44:22with a bunch of people. Um,

44:25you know, and if I'm not making enough

44:26money,

44:28then we'll lose the exclusivity. And

44:31that's cool. That's fine. So, what will

44:34be the next layer or levers you will

44:37pull after you've already validated your

44:40conceptual angle, you found maybe some

44:42good avatars, you've got a a solid

44:45script, where else do you go to pull

44:48more better performance from there?

44:51>> Yeah. So, I think there there's really

44:53only

44:55there's really only three levers. One is

44:57like a brand new script, brand like

44:59you're starting over again kind of,

45:00right?

45:01um those are big swings.

45:04Then I think you have um little swings

45:08which are just all the iterations you

45:11can make around um like who the avatar

45:15is, what do they say, like what's the

45:17pain point, maybe hitting a different

45:18audience, right? So if you're running a

45:20testosterone offer for example, and

45:23maybe your uh your pain point is low

45:28energy, you don't sleep well, like

45:29whatever. If you're a farmer in Kansas

45:33and you're a high-powered attorney in

45:35New York, that same problem shows up a

45:37different way in your life. And then, by

45:40the way, even if you are that lawyer or

45:42you are that farmer, it can show up

45:44differently in the lives of different

45:45farmers. Maybe it's you sleep through

45:47your alarm clock and you're not feeding

45:48the cattle, right? Or you're you're not

45:50meeting your ranch hands out there in

45:51time. Maybe it's you come back at the

45:54end of the day and you're exhausted and

45:56you're not spending any time with your

45:57wife and kids or you're super grouchy

45:59and just being a [ __ ] dick. Same

46:01problem. Save Avatar, but the way that

46:03it manifests itself is different is

46:05different. Um,

46:08so we're just kind of like rolling

46:09through those. So like the body changing

46:13the actor and the body and then you're

46:15changing a bunch of hooks or leads or

46:17you know what, however you want to

46:18define it. And then the middle piece

46:21I think about is I don't know like I

46:25haven't coined a way to say it but it's

46:26like the way that the concept is being

46:30delivered. And so in my head I think

46:33about hey John I want to give you a book

46:35to read. Am I giving it to you on a

46:38piece of paper written with a pencil? Is

46:39it on a Kindle? Is it hardback? Is it

46:41paperback? Right? It's the format in

46:43which it's delivered. And a good example

46:45of that is like okay are you doing a

46:48podcast style? Are you doing a talking

46:50head yapper? Are you doing um you know a

46:54Pixar? Are you doing Pixar with with

46:55music today? Right. And so like that's

46:58just the unique way to kind of deliver

47:01that concept or you know I'm sure most

47:03of the guys on the calls have seen those

47:05ads with just like the copy like the

47:07super long form copy just like scrolling

47:10right. It's the same angle. It's the

47:12same offer. you're just delivering it in

47:14a different way um

47:16>> in a different format of delivery save a

47:21script or concept with the angle.

47:26>> Sorry, I ask the question again.

47:28>> Can a different delivery format going

47:31from podcast style to street interview

47:34or UGC front-facing or some other weird

47:37organic style of the video? Yeah.

47:40>> Can that save a average script or

47:44conceptual angle that's not popping?

47:48>> It it depends how you define save. So I

47:51have a $100 CPA and I I'm I'm just like

47:54sitting at 110. Can that format get me

47:57to 90? Sure. But if I'm at 150, can it

48:02get me to 100? I mean, maybe. But like,

48:05why would you spend your time and energy

48:06and effort there? because maybe you get

48:08lucky and you like you figure out yes

48:12there's this one this one ad or this one

48:15it just hits it and it's happened to me

48:16it's happened to you I'm sure and it's

48:18happened to everybody listening on this

48:19call but that's not scalable right so

48:22like I look for winners and that very

48:27frequently means a concept or a certain

48:30way to describe a problem in the

48:32solution and the future state and so on

48:34and so forth that you can rinse and

48:36compete and so like a lot of our dude I

48:40don't know how many ads we had running

48:41yesterday. I should probably like go ask

48:43Hermes to to figure it out

48:46but we have so many iterations and so

48:50many different landers and so and so

48:52like you're but I know that they all

48:55work right and so some are going to work

48:58better than others but they're all going

49:00to work. The only ones that don't work

49:03or that didn't work yesterday were dupes

49:05of [ __ ] that worked.

49:07So like, and that's just a meta thing.

49:10Like I don't control that. And so when I

49:12find it, you just kill it. Um or pause

49:15it or maybe you go again. But I don't

49:17know. That's more on the media buying

49:19side, I guess.

49:21>> For for Landers, this is a big point for

49:23you too.

49:25you you specifically stated

49:29how important are landers? Tell us how

49:31how important are landers, Jason? I

49:34think they're wildly important and I

49:36think they're wildly overlooked. So,

49:40most of the traffic yesterday went video

49:43lander VSSL.

49:46And I'm sure there's a bunch of guys on

49:48this call that's like, "Wait a minute,

49:50you don't take a video ad and run to a

49:52VSSL." And I'm like, "Nope, I don't. I

49:56don't." And the number one reason that

49:59we don't do it is a really good lander

50:02will lower bounce rate, which will lower

50:05CPMs and qualify the person better. And

50:09so I think of that as the person who

50:11greets you at the front of retail

50:14um if you walk into a store. And so

50:17you're like, "Yeah, yeah, but let's

50:19assume your video is 1 minute. you can

50:21make it 5 minutes and it's like a VSSL.

50:24And I was like, yeah, but that's like

50:26selling somebody on the street. I want

50:28to bring them into my store where I can

50:30control the environment. And by the way,

50:32I don't know how. Yes, you can look in

50:34the aggregate and see how much of the

50:35video they watch, but like I don't know

50:37how much video they've watched, right?

50:39They could just look at enough and

50:41they're like that girl was pretty in

50:42that act. Click, right? and they and

50:45they get on a a VSSL that they didn't

50:48expect to see or whatever else. But I

50:51mean, you can see in the the statistics,

50:53it's like you go from ad of any format

50:57to a VSSL which all have like the same

51:00kind of look like ah [ __ ] like I'm not

51:03watching another one of these, you know,

51:05another one of these.

51:07And so like what's worked really well

51:09for us recently is we run really long

51:12avertorials now. Um, and what happens is

51:15your dwell time goes up. And if your

51:17dwell time goes up, your CPMs go down

51:20because you were it's the easiest signal

51:22to send back to Meta that the person is

51:26ingesting content that they expected to

51:29see,

51:31right? Like it's the you hit on an ad

51:33for an apple, you get there and there's

51:34an image of a horse and you're like,

51:35"What the [ __ ] is this?" And you go

51:36back. So Meta can track that. Like it's

51:38the easiest thing. And so if I can get

51:42somebody on a page and if the page is

51:44well written and you know if there's

51:47enough time I can sell anything at the

51:50bottom of an advertorial with anything

51:52at the top. So, I could have an ad for

51:55an apple and it's like, why are moms,

51:57you know, eating more apples and then it

52:00goes to the bottom and maybe it's a gut

52:01health thing or maybe it's, I don't

52:04know, maybe it's a piece of clothing,

52:06right? And so it's, you know, this mom

52:08had this, you know, saw this apple and

52:10it makes you feel a lot better. And so

52:12she started buying apples and then she

52:14met this guy in the grocery counter and

52:16the guy turned out to be a doctor who

52:18started describing that the right like

52:21or or the guy happened to have a pet

52:24food company and now I'm selling pet

52:27food off of a woman who had wrinkly skin

52:29and was looking for an apple or

52:30something. I don't know. Now, there's

52:33always going to be some kind of click

52:34loss or like bounce on the avatar or the

52:38lander.

52:39>> Let's say 50% on average. I don't know

52:41what you see, but the idea is if you're

52:45have if you have a let's say 1% raw

52:47click to sale running direct to the

52:50brand page or or the offer itself or the

52:53VSSL, you the idea is with a good lander

52:56and obviously everything else done

52:58correctly, you'll lose half your clicks

53:00on that advertorial, but your net click

53:04to uh purchase is going to be let's say

53:08one and a half with 2%. even with the

53:10the the bouncing off.

53:11>> Yeah. I mean, I've never had an offer

53:16outperform direct compared to the right

53:20apparatorial.

53:22And so, like that very first offer we

53:26cracked running Yahoo, which was Hippo's

53:28lifting firm, I think it was lift, the

53:31dark spot one, I don't I can't remember.

53:32I think it was Lift and firm. [snorts]

53:34Um

53:37the advertorial I put in took the

53:39conversion rate from.7 to 2.3

53:42>> raw like click to

53:44>> off the click.

53:44>> Yeah.

53:45>> Wow.

53:46>> And so why? Because you qualified those

53:48people. And by the way, like if I tell

53:51you, "Hey John, I got this movie you

53:53should see." And you're like, "Cool,

53:54send me a link." And you click it and

53:55you're, you know, and it's a movie about

53:57um lions. And you're like, "I [ __ ]

54:00hate lions." You leave, right? But if

54:03you click and it's like, "Hey, by the

54:05way, um, here's a quick summary of this

54:07movie about lions and why lions are so

54:09amazing and how you can own your own

54:11lion." And you're, you know, and 2

54:14minutes and by the way, John, 2 minutes

54:15in, we're we have a special offer on how

54:17to get a line delivered to your house.

54:19You're like, "Oh, that's crazy." So now

54:22I'm getting you to commit to a longer

54:24duration of the next of the next step,

54:27whether it's long form, whether it's a

54:28PDP, whatever it is. But if you don't

54:31like lions, you're the [ __ ] out of there

54:32anyway. What do I care? Unless I'm

54:34trying, you know, unless you're telling

54:36me that I need to convince you that you

54:37need to like lions, which was what the

54:39advertorial is trying to do also.

54:42So I I just it's more salesmanship. It's

54:46just more salesmanship. I see so many

54:48hats that are just like straight to PDP

54:50and I just and if they're profitable and

54:52they work, like that's great,

54:55but you could be doing a much better

54:57job. like is there a certain level of

55:00economics that it needs that needs to be

55:03there either on the front end see like

55:05payout if if you're an affiliate or I

55:07guess in the brand you have LTV and

55:09other things you could

55:10>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It depends. I mean we

55:11have targets like we have rorowaz like

55:14LTV target all sorts of [ __ ] on the lead

55:16side we have lead quality. Yeah.

55:18>> Like let's say you're running auto

55:20insurance easiest leg lead genen

55:22affiliate example those payouts are

55:24going to be on average somewhere between

55:26$10 to $15. probably should be like 20

55:2825.

55:28>> Yeah. Yeah.

55:29>> But the economics of the co average cost

55:33per click for that vertical on meta

55:36assuming you lose half your clicks on

55:37like a long form avitorial from the

55:39bounce. I I just don't see how like for

55:43those types of offers the the math will

55:45work in your favor versus just trying to

55:47get them through get them through the

55:49the flow of the offer. Like do you see

55:52that what I'm I guess what we're trying

55:53to ask is does the pricing and value of

55:55the conversion need to be at a certain

55:58baseline for for like the the click loss

56:01through the advertorial to like justify

56:04it.

56:05>> Yeah. So like I mean we used to run a

56:07lot of lead genen back in the day like a

56:09lot a lot. It was all advertorial.

56:12Um all of it. And I mean [ __ ] I mean

56:16just refine solar. It was all

56:19advertorial. Why? Right? Like everybody

56:23did it. Why? And so I just think it's,

56:26you know, there's you're hitting some

56:27curiosity there and whatever, but like

56:28all I have to do is put in my

56:29information. I have to pull out a card.

56:31So I think as soon as you pull out a

56:33card, I think you're automatically going

56:36to need some more salesmanship. Um, or

56:38if you take a look at like why Tik Tok

56:40shops do so well and where for the most

56:42part does it do really well, tends to be

56:45lower ticket impulse buy like here you

56:48go, right? and is but if you move up

56:51market and it becomes more expensive

56:53your consider [snorts] you're just your

56:56consideration is going to go up right

56:58like you're you're just going to think

57:00about it a little bit a little bit more

57:03um and so yeah I mean yeah that that I

57:08mean it definitely matters

57:11>> one question we didn't touch on for the

57:14team building side

57:16>> uh just real quick share with us what

57:19type of comp you you have with your new

57:21structure. And then also, I'm curious

57:23too, when you had your peak affiliate

57:25team with those eight killers, what type

57:27of comp structure were you going there?

57:30>> Yeah, that comp structure was $5,000 a

57:32month, uh, effectively a draw. Um, and

57:3620% of all the money you made.

57:38>> And but the percentage would be just

57:40regardless of if there was like a $100

57:42in profit or you would deduct out the 5k

57:45and then anything on top would be

57:47>> Yeah, it's on top. So you got you got to

57:48make the you got to make the 5k back.

57:50And I remember I had this conversation a

57:52couple times too is guys were like well

57:54you're taking like 80% of this that and

57:56the other and

58:00net of overhead and a bunch of other

58:01stuff. It I think we generally sat about

58:05I think it got closer to like 40. So 35

58:08or 40. And I was like okay well I'm

58:10paying for your video guy. Uh, I'm

58:13paying for, you know, volume, the

58:15bookkeeper, the office, your insurance,

58:19the 401k, like, you know, and I didn't

58:23show share this with everybody, but um,

58:25not because I [clears throat] was trying

58:26to hide it or whatever, like you can see

58:28how much money we make, but I think that

58:30one of the things is you're like, "Dude,

58:32you're making a million dollars and like

58:34you're giving $200,000 to the team and

58:36you're keeping 800." And I'm like,

58:38"Yeah, let's just take a look at the

58:40P&L, right? And and I'm sure you've had

58:43this experience. I feel like every month

58:45I look at the P&L and I'm like, "Where

58:47the [ __ ] is all my money going and then

58:49you see where it's going and you're

58:50like, "God damn it, it makes sense." And

58:54then you do it again the next month. Um

58:56I remember when I brought Andre in as a

58:58partner on the agency side and for the

59:01first time we started like going through

59:03the the P&L and the first time he's

59:05like, "Where's all the money we made?"

59:06And I was like, "Ah, I love this

59:08conversation. Let's go through the let's

59:10go through the pan out. Um, you know,

59:13com structure is always always a very

59:16very tough a very very tough thing. And

59:20so the what I think about now with our

59:23team is like you have to remember that

59:26the creative strategist isn't doing the

59:28media buying anymore. They're not making

59:32the um videos. They're not building the

59:37AI tools that support them. They're not

59:40doing the reports for the client.

59:42They're consulting with the the, you

59:44know, the customer um client team. I

59:46forget what we call them. So, like their

59:49roles and responsibilities just went way

59:51way down. However,

59:54you want comp plans that are very easy

59:57to understand without a bunch of

59:59complications. Um, that was something

1:00:02else that happened in the beginning of

1:00:03the year. We redid the comp plan and

1:00:04there were like all these checks and

1:00:06balance and I was like if I if I was

1:00:08working here like I have no idea how

1:00:11much money I'm making and there were

1:00:12soft metrics. Did like uh do reports get

1:00:16delivered on time? I'm like how who's

1:00:18tracking this? Like I don't even want to

1:00:20build anything to track this.

1:00:22And yes, you could track it, but it just

1:00:24it just doesn't make it just doesn't

1:00:26make sense. And so you know I think for

1:00:29me where it starts is for everybody in

1:00:33every role what is the one thing they

1:00:35are responsible for. So um let's go to

1:00:39client management. What are they

1:00:41responsible for? Like oh well they have

1:00:43to do the reports. They have to respond

1:00:45to the client fast enough. They have to

1:00:47make sure as you know they're one of the

1:00:50the the teams or people that looks at

1:00:52the stats and makes sure that we're on

1:00:54target. But really they have one job.

1:00:58Their job is to make sure that the

1:01:00client is happy. That's it. And so like

1:01:04if you have an affiliate, you know, sort

1:01:06of team, which you know, a lot of

1:01:08affiliates on this team on this call,

1:01:09I'm sure. Like you just got to make

1:01:12money. So what does it mean to make

1:01:14money? Well, there are all these other

1:01:15things, but at the end of the day, if

1:01:17you're not making enough money over a

1:01:19long enough period of time to earn what

1:01:21I pay you and keep the lights on in the

1:01:23office, bye-bye. Right. And so, um,

1:01:28yeah, it was it was a hard one. We went

1:01:30back and forth on like a whole bunch of

1:01:32stuff. So, how much weight goes to the

1:01:34media buying team? So, like how much

1:01:37does he push? How much breaks? What

1:01:39about client management? What about the

1:01:42you know one of the things we're doing

1:01:44now is I'm teaching all the video

1:01:45editors we have nine of them to

1:01:49understand the data because I want

1:01:51iterations to not have to go through the

1:01:53creative strategist.

1:01:55So like somebody on the performance team

1:01:58or the media team whomever is like hey

1:02:00by the way this video is doing very very

1:02:02well just go iterate

1:02:05just just go by the way here's you know

1:02:08here's a couple bucks for that and if

1:02:10that [ __ ] scales you get more couple

1:02:12bucks

1:02:14and so um but that's a hard one it it's

1:02:17hard to say broadly how it how it would

1:02:20go but I would say you know the lion

1:02:22share is going to be the creative

1:02:24strategist because they're on a

1:02:26percentage basis because they are tied

1:02:28to a finite number of offers versus the

1:02:30media buying team is all offers you know

1:02:34customer uh again I can't think of the

1:02:37name of that group but they touch

1:02:39everybody right and so um I think that's

1:02:43an important piece the other thing that

1:02:46I've been thinking a lot about that I

1:02:48haven't rolled out um

1:02:53is setting up comp in a way which is

1:02:56like really aligned with the goals of

1:02:59the company and the goals of a position.

1:03:03So let me tell you where this came from.

1:03:05So we were going through this

1:03:06acquisition last year and what I learned

1:03:08is the bisdev team got uh their

1:03:11commission was like let's just call it

1:03:1210% for all the new clients that they

1:03:14brought in

1:03:16the first year. The second year it went

1:03:18to five. The third year went to two and

1:03:21a half and then it went away. And the

1:03:24reason was because they always want to

1:03:26be bringing in new clients to grow the

1:03:28portfolio of clients because otherwise

1:03:30you get one whale and you're like,

1:03:33"Well, I'm [ __ ] done. I'm just going

1:03:34to sit back and just take the 10% cuz

1:03:36these guys are just growing like a

1:03:38rocket ship and I don't got to do shit."

1:03:40So, like one of the things that I've

1:03:43been toying with a lot is like

1:03:46if you get um let's just use for round

1:03:49numbers. Um you get uh 10% commission,

1:03:54which we don't pay like 10% like that,

1:03:57but you get 10% commission if you crack

1:03:59an offer. But here's what happens.

1:04:01Somebody has an offer that's scaling.

1:04:04The offer that's not working doesn't get

1:04:06any attention. Everybody's focused on

1:04:08what's working, right? Which you have to

1:04:11do, but like you still have to focus on

1:04:14those other clients. So then I was like,

1:04:16"All right, well, if you can crack two

1:04:19offers, your total comp goes to 20."

1:04:23>> And if you can crack three offers, which

1:04:25I would cap this, it goes up to like 40.

1:04:28So I was looking at a multiplier that

1:04:30way, not 40%, but like a multiplier

1:04:33there. So like what what do you need?

1:04:35And so there were other there are other

1:04:37sort of gates that I look at without

1:04:40over complicating stuff and they're very

1:04:42binary, but like you only get paid if

1:04:45you were on target for the CPA. So if

1:04:48your CPA target is 100 and you come in

1:04:51for the month at 101, I don't owe you a

1:04:53dollar. I'll still pay like I'll I'll

1:04:55still pay off of a dollar, but like just

1:04:58know that this like you have to spend a

1:05:01certain amount to cover your base and be

1:05:04on target

1:05:06and you have to do more than one offer,

1:05:10right? Because otherwise you end up with

1:05:11a bunch of churn. And so like I've

1:05:13really I've really thought a lot about

1:05:16what are the what are the core metrics

1:05:18of the um

1:05:22of the company and what do we need and

1:05:24what do our clients need and structuring

1:05:26it the right the right way. You know I

1:05:28know I know guys who one of them is on

1:05:31this call. They do a percent to you a

1:05:35percent to your team and a percent from

1:05:36the company so that you help the other

1:05:38people.

1:05:39And so I've toyed with ideas around

1:05:42that. So like you could have one offer

1:05:44that pays for the entire agency. You

1:05:46totally could. But then you have these

1:05:48these other ones. So like if you support

1:05:50the guy next to you and you know again

1:05:53you got two offers. Like what happens

1:05:55there? Um or I or you got the video

1:05:58editors now paying attention to the

1:06:00metrics because they want to find

1:06:01something that they can dupe and then

1:06:03scale and iterate off of and then make

1:06:05some more money. So like now everybody

1:06:07on the team is kind of pulling in the um

1:06:09in the same direction,

1:06:11>> but it's alignment. Like you have to

1:06:14great way to say it.

1:06:14>> You got to summarize it. It sounds like

1:06:16regardless of whether they're a client

1:06:18success manager or whatever you call

1:06:20that

1:06:20>> or the guy that's just making creative

1:06:23or responsible for the whole damn offer.

1:06:26They need alignment in a way where they

1:06:28can't game it against you. not intent

1:06:30intentionally or unintentionally but

1:06:33then like where that that alignment like

1:06:34as like multi-aceted

1:06:37serving I is a way to say it right.

1:06:40>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean it just it Yes. And

1:06:43so like you know we're all inbound. Um

1:06:46we don't have outbound sales team but

1:06:49like one of the things when we do have

1:06:52that person is so you bring in a new

1:06:53client that we sign up um you know maybe

1:06:56we do let's in this example do a 90-day

1:06:59trial. Like, can we even [ __ ] crack

1:07:00it? Like, I'm not in the interest of

1:07:02building just a [ __ ] ton of clients just

1:07:04to build retainers. It's uninteresting,

1:07:06frankly.

1:07:08And so then you're like, "All right,

1:07:09cool. Well, if you sign a client up, I'm

1:07:11going to give you a $1,000 bonus.

1:07:12Congratulations. Well done, Johnny."

1:07:14Right? Like, good job. But your bonus

1:07:17doesn't kick in until that client goes

1:07:20into the six-month agreement afterwards.

1:07:24Because otherwise, you're just bringing

1:07:25in [ __ ] all the time. And if they all

1:07:27alignment with retention,

1:07:30>> bingo. Yeah. And so I think about that

1:07:33kind of stuff too. Um but comp is comp

1:07:36is tough. It was the easiest on

1:07:37affiliate. Like it's dollar in dollar

1:07:39out. Like it was by far the easiest.

1:07:42>> Um but I think it's just important to to

1:07:45sit and think through to understand like

1:07:47what are the goals of the company that

1:07:49really matter and then you have to keep

1:07:51the comp plan generally very simple. so

1:07:56that you can um

1:07:59the people on the team can look at the

1:08:01dashboard and for the most part

1:08:03calculate what their comp's going to be.

1:08:06>> Interesting.

1:08:08>> Let's let's jump in the Q&A.

1:08:10>> Yeah.

1:08:10>> Uh we got 176. Still going strong.

1:08:14>> You dropped a lot of [ __ ] great

1:08:16information then. Um by the way guys,

1:08:19Jason was kind enough. I twisted his arm

1:08:21a bit, but he said we could record this.

1:08:22So you will get access to this on

1:08:25YouTube later. Uh something also we're

1:08:27thinking about doing for these Q&A is

1:08:28maybe leaving either a portion of the

1:08:31speakers like sauce drop we'll call it

1:08:34private and only on the live or the Q&A

1:08:38will only be on the live. So if you're

1:08:40on one of these calls live you get

1:08:41everything and obviously there's no

1:08:43charge which is cool too. So guys drop

1:08:46some questions in the Q&A. Uh we'll

1:08:49we'll go back through the ones already

1:08:50there. Jason, do you want to go uh do

1:08:53you want to pull people up or do you

1:08:55want to go just like spitball whatever

1:08:58pops and and we uh answer.

1:09:01>> Um why don't we just go Why don't we

1:09:02just go down the list and just answer

1:09:03them? I think it's easier. There'll be

1:09:05less delay.

1:09:05>> I was saying do you want me to allow

1:09:06them to talk?

1:09:08>> Oh yeah, they can talk. Yeah.

1:09:09>> Okay, cool. Let's uh let me try to

1:09:12facilitate this.

1:09:15I think Piffco might be the first one.

1:09:17He's got his hand raised, too.

1:09:22Mr. Bivco,

1:09:24>> what's up? Can you hear me?

1:09:26>> Yeah. What's up, man?

1:09:27>> How you doing?

1:09:28>> What's up, Jay? How you doing, bro?

1:09:30>> We're doing all right.

1:09:31>> Great little ramble.

1:09:32>> I think you've heard the record.

1:09:34>> Um

1:09:36I'm curious when you're thinking about

1:09:40um either a new offer or a new angle or

1:09:43like even a new client.

1:09:44>> Yeah.

1:09:44>> Um

1:09:46>> are you immediately going to Okay. uh

1:09:49like what advertorials do we need to

1:09:51write? Is that is that like the

1:09:52framework for a start for you or is it

1:09:55just ads to existing funnels to

1:09:57measuring

1:10:00ads to existing funnels?

1:10:03[sighs and gasps]

1:10:03Um

1:10:07I hate starting this way, but like it

1:10:09depends. So if that client has something

1:10:13that's working um on an advertorial,

1:10:15we'll we'll start with that advertorial.

1:10:17like we're just trying to get some legs

1:10:19under us.

1:10:20>> How often are you inheriting a client

1:10:21with like something working?

1:10:25>> Um, a pretty a pretty I mean there's

1:10:29only there's only two types. So you're

1:10:31either you either have something working

1:10:34I mean like you're a nine figure brand

1:10:37let's say maybe you're doing 70 80

1:10:38million like whatever it is or you're

1:10:40doing 120 or 200. Um, and then there the

1:10:44other kind that's like that's a pro

1:10:46operator that'll bring you something

1:10:47that's effectively brand new, right? Um,

1:10:51and so they're like, I don't know if

1:10:52that works. If they go, I don't know if

1:10:54it works, usually they'll have some kind

1:10:58of a list or dropped the list or they

1:10:59have some sense of the angle because

1:11:01they created the offer. Um, and we'll

1:11:04we'll jump off there. I mean, you can

1:11:06spit out an advertorial

1:11:10like an okay get started 35% advertorial

1:11:15CTR like all day long. Super easy,

1:11:18right? Just like a a regular like

1:11:20squeeze page. Super super quick.

1:11:22Millions of American women across the

1:11:24country have found that there's a

1:11:25brilliant way to fix this discovered by

1:11:28a doctor who like super super simple,

1:11:31right?

1:11:33Um,

1:11:35I think a a derivative of that question

1:11:37which is interesting that I talk to my

1:11:39team a lot about is where like how do

1:11:41you start like do you think about the

1:11:43angle or what I realized 50% of the time

1:11:47I think about the image first.

1:11:50So, and then I write the angle. So, I'm

1:11:53like, "Oh, you know what' be really cool

1:11:55is if there was an image of like this

1:11:58thing." And so then I'll go whip up an

1:12:01image real quick

1:12:02>> and I'll write the copy.

1:12:03>> Interesting.

1:12:04>> Yeah. So like we ran a skin care ad

1:12:08um uh offer

1:12:11>> I don't know how long ago this was like

1:12:12two years ago or something like that. We

1:12:14were running this skincare offer. Um and

1:12:16I was like, you know what's a really

1:12:17interesting image? a woman who's a coal

1:12:19miner where her face is all black and

1:12:23she's wearing a a pearl necklace and

1:12:26like one of those hats with the lights.

1:12:29And then I wrote the copy about the coal

1:12:31miner who spent 30 years working in the

1:12:33coal and after retirement wanted to feel

1:12:36beautiful for the first time in her life

1:12:37because she could.

1:12:39>> What a wild way to start the hero image

1:12:41of an advertorial. That's crazy.

1:12:44>> Okay, cool. I'll give the floor back to

1:12:46somebody else, but I love that nugget.

1:12:48I'm going to put it to the test.

1:12:50>> Yeah, Adam.

1:12:51>> Thanks,

1:12:54>> okay, next. Uh, do you want me to pull

1:12:57more up or do you want me to hit some of

1:12:58these like anonymous questions and you

1:13:00just banging?

1:13:02>> Whatever you want to do. It's your show.

1:13:03I'm just here to spitball.

1:13:05>> Couple questions from and answer

1:13:08whatever you choose to answer. You're

1:13:09not obviously obligated to drop all the

1:13:11insights.

1:13:12>> Yeah.

1:13:13>> Uh, anonymous attendee. So first

1:13:14question, what's the what's the media

1:13:16buying setup now? So much talk around

1:13:18ABOS, CVO, big counter, hallscap,

1:13:21>> what's what's the answer there for you?

1:13:22>> Yeah, so probably like the most, you

1:13:25know, negotiated thing in on Twitter.

1:13:28Um, for us it's [ __ ] out of the gate

1:13:31always like I want to control the spend.

1:13:34I want to force the data. Um,

1:13:37>> one after adset or you do like a similar

1:13:40>> No. So, we'll So, we have two sort of

1:13:44different different kind of setups. Um,

1:13:47a lot of what we're doing now is what we

1:13:50call a multi-angle. So, let's assume for

1:13:53a moment I'm selling fruit baskets. And

1:13:55so, I'll have a campaign that's like

1:13:57this is fruit b, you know, the fruit

1:13:59basket campaign. And I'll have uh apple

1:14:02copy, banana copy, this is the smoke

1:14:04test pair, like whatever. and then um

1:14:08and then like five images in each adset

1:14:11and that's just a smoke test. And I

1:14:14think that one of the luxuries that we

1:14:15have as an agency is we can go slower,

1:14:18spend lower budgets, give it a little

1:14:20bit of time. Um

1:14:22>> what are you looking for in the smoke

1:14:24test? Because obviously you're not

1:14:25looking for like a home run CPA.

1:14:27>> No, I'm looking for um I'm looking for

1:14:31CPCs. I'm looking for CPMs. I'm looking

1:14:33for lander CTR. all sort of like the

1:14:35front half of the metric

1:14:37>> on a purchase campaign so you don't get

1:14:39false flags with like traffic or

1:14:42something.

1:14:42>> No, I don't give a sh I don't give a

1:14:43[ __ ] about that. I mean I do but like

1:14:45>> but like you're setting it up as a

1:14:47conversion campaign not as like a

1:14:48traffic or engagement objective.

1:14:50>> Oh yeah yeah yeah always always

1:14:52purchase. Although I have thought about

1:14:55uh testing initiate checkout events to

1:14:58get the upper funnel metrics, but when I

1:15:00did it last time, it just dirties the

1:15:02pixel a little bit. Um, and that's I

1:15:06don't know. But basically, so we'll have

1:15:09these just basically like these adets

1:15:12where I'm just looking to see what does

1:15:14well and and what doesn't. So, we had we

1:15:17ran a comparison uh campaign last week

1:15:20and it was Coke, Pepsi, Diet Coke,

1:15:23regular Coke, Coke Zero, Bud Light,

1:15:26Coors Light, like all these different

1:15:27things. And I'm just smoke testing on

1:15:30what the CPMs are like and what the

1:15:32click-through rates are. And so, like

1:15:34beer was 80. Uh, Pepsi Diet, sorry,

1:15:41Pepsi Coke was like a $130,

1:15:44but the click-through rate on the very

1:15:47vanilla lander was like 20. It was like

1:15:5225 on beer and 35 on Diet Coke and Pepsi

1:15:55or Coke and Pepsi. And so you have way

1:15:59cheaper traffic on the beer, but like

1:16:03they're just like curious like I don't

1:16:04know like why why is somebody holding

1:16:06why is somebody holding beer up? And so

1:16:09then I know the next step if that's the

1:16:11cheapest traffic I'm going to focus

1:16:13there because the messaging was the

1:16:15same.

1:16:16>> Well, cheapest doesn't always translate

1:16:18to the best, right?

1:16:20>> That's correct. That's correct.

1:16:24status of that campaign today is I think

1:16:26beer is going to be dead. Um, we took we

1:16:29ended up taking two two bikini models

1:16:33holding the beer in bikini tops and I

1:16:37think the highest lander CTR we got was

1:16:39like 27%.

1:16:41>> And so like I'm very close to killing

1:16:43that one, right?

1:16:46>> But what it but what it does is it tells

1:16:48me where to focus. So I was like this is

1:16:50looking good. I'm gonna focus here and

1:16:52if I can't get the lander CTR up then I

1:16:55know that this angle is never going to

1:16:56work um at least today and so then I'm

1:16:59going to go focus on something else.

1:17:02>> Next two questions probably

1:17:04>> oh sorry last part.

1:17:05>> Oh sorry

1:17:06>> then then scale is highest volume and

1:17:10then like yesterday was about 5050

1:17:14highest volume in bitcap. Uh rorowaz

1:17:16actually surprisingly [ __ ] the bet

1:17:18across the board.

1:17:20as goal like objective.

1:17:22>> Yeah. Yeah. Just just literally I we've

1:17:24had it rorowaz work on some other offers

1:17:26but this one it just I don't know why

1:17:28but it just did not um

1:17:31>> do you over target if if it's a $100

1:17:33like target are you going 120 or you

1:17:36coming in like low on like 80 with a

1:17:37baked margin for your big house?

1:17:39>> No, we'll go we'll go higher. So, like I

1:17:43think that one of the differences

1:17:45between agencies and affiliates is like

1:17:49if a client gives me a $100 target,

1:17:54sure, they're happy if I come in at 90,

1:17:56right? Like, they're great. That's

1:17:57that's fantastic.

1:18:00But the target they give me is the

1:18:01target they want with the most number

1:18:04with the most amount of supply at that

1:18:06target. if that target for whatever

1:18:08reason is no longer working for them or

1:18:10their refunds are too high or they want

1:18:12to increase margin for or they want to

1:18:15increase margin or maybe their LTD is or

1:18:18their AOVs today aren't as good or they

1:18:20don't have the upsells dialed they'll

1:18:22pull it down and so like we're trying to

1:18:25hit the number as opposed to like as an

1:18:27affiliate you're trying to get as much

1:18:29volume as you can as low at a lowest

1:18:32cost or which we are also

1:18:35but like if we have that margin, we're

1:18:37going to spend more. And if the client

1:18:39decides to pull the margin down, that's

1:18:40on them.

1:18:42>> Got it. Uh, do you mind sharing your JB

1:18:45deal structure as an agency or prefer

1:18:47not to?

1:18:49>> My JV deal structure?

1:18:51>> Yeah. Like what's your comp structure

1:18:52with the with the brands?

1:18:54>> Um, yeah. No, I'll walk through it. So,

1:18:57this is kind this is kind of

1:18:58interesting. Um, we started and we had

1:19:03no retainers and it was 10% of ad spend

1:19:05and it was flat.

1:19:07And then we moved to five. And then we

1:19:09moved to 10. And then we moved to 12 and

1:19:13a half. And we're at 15 now. But here's

1:19:16how I here's how I structured it. And

1:19:18this is actually kind of this is an

1:19:19interesting story, I think. Anyway, um

1:19:24I pitched So what you get for $15,000 a

1:19:28month is you effectively get the smoke

1:19:30test. um two net new concepts

1:19:34um with you know sort of five different

1:19:35sub angles per ad set per week, static

1:19:38images, no videos unless we decide to

1:19:41use videos, but this is kind of the

1:19:42minimum promise plus a lander for each

1:19:45one of those and no percentage of spend

1:19:48until you get to uh 50,000 bucks in a

1:19:52month.

1:19:54And I had an I had a a buddy of mine um

1:20:00go through this this new pricing model

1:20:02and go walk me through the pricing

1:20:04model. And so I he's like, "I'm not

1:20:06paying you 15 grand for this whole

1:20:08thing." Like that's crazy. Like 15,000.

1:20:10And I was like, "Yeah." So let me let me

1:20:12tell you how I got here because this is

1:20:15interesting. I think

1:20:18I have a friend of mine who has worked

1:20:21for me two times who is the CMO of a

1:20:25nine figure brand and they hired us and

1:20:30to launch a new offer and the offer

1:20:33wasn't working and it just like it

1:20:35wasn't working. It wasn't us. he knows

1:20:37how we run and whatever. And so he's

1:20:39like, "Hey, we're going to have to pause

1:20:41this offer." And I was like, "All

1:20:43right." He's like, "Really?" Because I

1:20:46have to hire somebody to run this and

1:20:47like right now I'm running it and I got

1:20:49too much [ __ ] to do. So like, give me 90

1:20:51or 120 days. I'm going to go hire a guy

1:20:52and he's going to be the product manager

1:20:54of this thing and then you guys are

1:20:56back. By the way, you're undercharging.

1:21:00And I was like, "What?" And he's like,

1:21:01"You're undercharging. Don't raise the

1:21:03price on me because I'm telling you

1:21:04this, but we have a creative agency that

1:21:07we pay $10,000 a month and here's what

1:21:09they give us. We have a media buying

1:21:11agency that we pay $20,000 a month and

1:21:13this is what they give us, which

1:21:15basically no ads and nobody gives us

1:21:18landers. We have to do all of them.

1:21:21And so I was like, "Holy shit." So

1:21:23anyway, so I'm talking to my friend

1:21:24workshopping this new pricing model and

1:21:26I was like, "Okay, so I'm going to

1:21:27charge you 15 grand. Here's what we give

1:21:29you. if I charged you for the creatives,

1:21:32for the media buying, and for the

1:21:33landers, what would you expect to

1:21:34charge? And he's like, way more than 15.

1:21:36And I was like, that's right. And then

1:21:39as soon as, like, look, I look at 50

1:21:41grand and spend. That's 2,000 bucks a

1:21:43day. That's [ __ ] nothing. It's

1:21:45nothing.

1:21:46But it's enough to test. And then as

1:21:49soon as we start to cross that, we are

1:21:52now in what he called, and now I use

1:21:55this term too, whatever the [ __ ] it

1:21:57takes.

1:21:59That's as many videos, as many landers,

1:22:01as many many many many to just drive

1:22:03scale, which is the only place we make

1:22:05our money.

1:22:07And so, you know, at a headcount of of

1:22:0930 and you're making I actually know

1:22:11exactly what my margins are, but if

1:22:13you're charging 15 grand for this, are

1:22:15we making money? Yes. Are we making

1:22:18anything that's like

1:22:21interesting? The answer is no. And so

1:22:25and then I was originally trying to oh

1:22:28we had no term in our contracts which

1:22:30we're now doing 90 days. So, like if you

1:22:33come to us, you got we got 90 days to

1:22:35date and then after 90 days it goes to 6

1:22:38months. And by the way, you can like

1:22:40fire us. And um you know, one of the

1:22:44things is like how do we test you for a

1:22:45month? And I was like, dude, I just

1:22:47don't have like a bunch of dudes sitting

1:22:49on the on the bench that I can pull in

1:22:51and have them do work and you know, just

1:22:54do all that stuff. Unless you just want

1:22:56us to just oneshot a bunch of AI [ __ ]

1:22:58which I'm happy to do, but then at 15

1:23:00grand, you're probably overpaying, too.

1:23:03So, like, I also don't want I also don't

1:23:05want to do that. You do need some

1:23:07direction. Um,

1:23:09but that's how we're pricing it today.

1:23:12Um, and we have one uh we have a $20,000

1:23:16a month retainer which just gives you

1:23:18more net new concepts which if you are a

1:23:21much much larger brand and it's like you

1:23:24know we had this this um this was the

1:23:26first time it's it happened. We were

1:23:27testing what I would call conservatively

1:23:30and how we would work for most clients.

1:23:33And um they were also a nine figure

1:23:36brand. And he's like, "Hey Jay, you got

1:23:39to be testing at a minimum $5,000 a day.

1:23:43Like if you lose $5,000 a day or you

1:23:48double the $5,000 a day, it changes the

1:23:51course of our business." Zero. Like I

1:23:54don't care. Like you have to go faster.

1:23:56And I was like, "Fuck." Okay. So, we

1:23:59have a bigger one that is not for most

1:24:01clients to be honest. They just don't

1:24:03have the Unity economics behind them to

1:24:06support that. Um, but it's an option.

1:24:09>> Jordan Duskski who spoke a Greek out. I

1:24:12think you might

1:24:15>> Jordan hop on if you want. If not, I'm

1:24:17going to read your question regardless.

1:24:19Uh, raise your hand if you want to come

1:24:21up. He asked, "Was Vid asked?" Here we

1:24:25go.

1:24:27Jordan, my man, I'll let you read your

1:24:28question, brother. Go for it.

1:24:31>> Sup? Can you hear me?

1:24:32>> Got you, man. How are you?

1:24:34>> Very good. Very good. Uh, I wanted to

1:24:36ask you, so you hit these pretty much

1:24:39record numbers. How much of this was

1:24:42because you guys focused more on video

1:24:44this year?

1:24:47>> Great question. Great question. Um, I

1:24:51think a large portion is because we

1:24:54focused on video. A large portion was

1:24:56because we have a [ __ ] ton of iterations

1:24:59um on the videos that are working. Like

1:25:02a [ __ ] ton. And then um the other thing

1:25:06is is that it would have been bigger if

1:25:09we focused more on statics for this

1:25:12client.

1:25:14>> So yeah. So for the guys on the call,

1:25:16like video was pretty I don't know.

1:25:18We've been doing video for forever, but

1:25:20like video was a small small piece and

1:25:24like I don't know 10% of traffic. It was

1:25:27a small piece um all of last year and I

1:25:31was like we really need to get more into

1:25:32video and then we got to this place

1:25:34where video was 80% of our traffic and

1:25:37um we're a little bit less than that

1:25:39now. It's a metric that the leadership

1:25:41team looks at um every week and I think

1:25:45it's too much. And so I told the team

1:25:49last week, I was like, "Hey, go back, go

1:25:52grab all the old winners on statics and

1:25:54refresh that [ __ ] and guess what makes

1:25:57money." And so we're behind on the

1:25:59static side. And I think it comes down

1:26:01to the way in which the content is

1:26:03delivered. Some people just have, you

1:26:05know, some people want clickbait, some

1:26:07people want long form stories, some

1:26:08people want a short story, and so like,

1:26:11how are you just getting them into the

1:26:12store? And on the internet, there's so

1:26:14many people to sell so many different

1:26:16ways. Um, but I think in a perfect

1:26:18world, we would probably be, you know,

1:26:21very close to 50/50.

1:26:26>> That makes a lot of sense. Thank you.

1:26:29>> Y

1:26:31next. You might have kind of already

1:26:33answered it, but I'll still ask this.

1:26:34Brian Grayson asked, "How do you budget

1:26:36for cracking a new offer versus when you

1:26:38walk?" Is that probably just not a

1:26:40client?

1:26:41>> Wait, wait. Say,

1:26:43>> "How do you budget for cracking a new

1:26:45offer versus when you walk?" I'm I'm not

1:26:48sure what he means that last part. How

1:26:49do you budget for a new offer? Just

1:26:51depends on the on the client at this

1:26:53point.

1:26:54>> Um, no, it's all based on um the CPA

1:26:58target and then the cost of initiated

1:27:00checkout and the ratios.

1:27:02So, um,

1:27:03>> do you know those ahead like when you

1:27:05get handed the offer or do you just know

1:27:07from the vertical like what a health

1:27:09>> a funnel could change too?

1:27:11>> No, I know. So, you have a vertical but

1:27:12like you could be running a supplement

1:27:15offer for $30 or 300,

1:27:18>> right? Yeah.

1:27:19>> Yeah. And so, like you just need bigger

1:27:22budgets. um like if you're going to test

1:27:25tele medicine you need a budget that is

1:27:27much much bigger than lead genen just

1:27:29because if nothing else just the

1:27:31variance in the CPA so we generally know

1:27:35because if somebody brings me an offer

1:27:36I'm like what's your CPA target so first

1:27:38I ask because um not all the time but

1:27:42sometimes they're just super

1:27:43unreasonable so like we had a tele

1:27:46medicine guy pitch us

1:27:49and um and I was like uh okay so like,

1:27:52"What's your CPA target?" And they're

1:27:53like, "We want to be in at $100." And I

1:27:56was like, "Yes, yes you do. And by the

1:27:59way, I would want to be in at $100,

1:28:01too." And like Pivco is probably

1:28:03drooling right now, uh, if you could get

1:28:05a a CPA, you know, at 100 bucks or

1:28:07whatever. But I'm like, that's just not

1:28:10realistic. So, you do get it on that

1:28:12portion of the of the qualification, but

1:28:14let's assume 100 is great for an offer.

1:28:16I know on average that the initiated

1:28:19checkout for that offer is going to be

1:28:2133 bucks give or take. And so on a broad

1:28:26smoke test I am trying to get three

1:28:29initiate checkouts per concept per day.

1:28:33And so like one of the things that we're

1:28:35seeing is um meta is just taking longer.

1:28:39Like it just it's just taking longer

1:28:41than it used to. Like an ad might not

1:28:43hit today. It might not hit tomorrow,

1:28:45but then it like hits on day three. If

1:28:47it doesn't hit on day three, like I'm

1:28:48[ __ ] out. But that's why we have the

1:28:52amount of net new concepts is to

1:28:54basically

1:28:56it's a way to help not not I guess

1:28:59portion of it is to qualify the client,

1:29:02but like to also help them understand

1:29:03what budget they're going to need. So,

1:29:06um, you know, there was another there

1:29:09was another gentleman that came to me

1:29:10with a a supplement sort of suite of

1:29:13things and the CPA was $400. And I'm

1:29:16like, by the way, like I'm just telling

1:29:18you like we're going to have to spend a

1:29:20lot of money to test that. I'm just

1:29:22telling you, like that's your target.

1:29:23That's it's very expensive to the

1:29:25customer. That's going to be a lot more

1:29:27than your your standard $69,

1:29:30you know, supplement or $39 supplement.

1:29:33Um,

1:29:35yeah. And so that's just what I'm

1:29:36looking for. All of our testing is

1:29:38always done off of initiate checkout

1:29:39metrics.

1:29:41>> Interesting.

1:29:42>> We're still running purchase. I just

1:29:44look at initiate checkouts three times

1:29:46the data

1:29:46>> for especially for like a higher ticket

1:29:48payouts and CPA targets.

1:29:50>> Yeah.

1:29:51>> How are you finding good offers?

1:29:54[sighs and gasps]

1:29:55>> I wish I had a better answer for this.

1:29:57Uh, they find me. Um, and I think the

1:30:00next phase of the agency to grow it is

1:30:02we need to start doing some outbound.

1:30:04Um, but for, you know, so far for the

1:30:07history of the agency, we have more

1:30:09business than, frankly, we can handle.

1:30:11Um, and grow at a point where like we're

1:30:15actually maintaining quality, right?

1:30:16Like you could go hire five media buyers

1:30:18right now to run more offers. It's going

1:30:19to be a [ __ ] blood bath because four

1:30:21of them are going to be [ __ ] and um

1:30:23you're just going to lose money. So, you

1:30:25know, we have the same problem. Eton

1:30:27asks, "When you're testing and running

1:30:29multiple landing pages, are you using

1:30:32redirect links so one ad can rotate

1:30:33landers or are you having one dedicated

1:30:36link per campaign?"

1:30:38>> Yeah, that's a great question. Um,

1:30:40there's been a lot of So, we're

1:30:41rotating. So, um, with a redirect and

1:30:46there's been a lot of chatter about

1:30:48running direct and just like one ad

1:30:51lander A, you know, same ad lander B and

1:30:54sort of letting Meta sort of figure that

1:30:56out.

1:30:57Um

1:30:59I think for us

1:31:02I would rather where I want to go is I

1:31:04want to move all of our landers to post

1:31:05hog. So they're all HTML now we used

1:31:07unbounce for years but like with AI and

1:31:10stuff it's just easier to use cloudflow

1:31:12worker and so then I would like to

1:31:15basically move all that stuff to post

1:31:16hog for multivariant testing because

1:31:19it's just more efficient with I think

1:31:20it's more efficient with ad spend. Um,

1:31:25yeah, I I it's something we've talked

1:31:28about internally a whole bunch and I

1:31:30know a bunch of guys who are doing it.

1:31:32>> Next question. Could you explain the

1:31:35logic behind 3,000word

1:31:38long static image ads? I think you might

1:31:40have already kind of explained this. Do

1:31:42people actually read that is like the

1:31:44second question to it.

1:31:46Um, so the idea behind it is, and this

1:31:49is based on sort of tinfoil hat theory a

1:31:52little bit, but um, it's built, I think

1:31:55a lot of it is contextual.

1:31:58So you're basic, so there's two benefits

1:32:00to it. So one, you're getting some

1:32:01contextual targeting because you have

1:32:03like I mean, Meta has AI just reading

1:32:06this thing and trying to figure out who

1:32:08that audience is for all of that copy.

1:32:10The second thing I think is interesting

1:32:12is you're trapping the user.

1:32:15And one of the ways that or one of the

1:32:18things I talk a lot about in our

1:32:19company, even if it's an advertorial, is

1:32:21how the copy is structured and

1:32:23formatted. So if somebody sees an ad and

1:32:27they hit read more,

1:32:29and now the only way out, by the way, is

1:32:32to scroll all the way to the bottom.

1:32:35That means that instead of having a

1:32:38single door on like Main Street in Park

1:32:40City or some ski town or whatever,

1:32:42imagine if your store was this much

1:32:44longer and you had like five different

1:32:46doors with five different salesmen. You

1:32:48have more opportunity

1:32:51to get that per like to get that person

1:32:53hooked in.

1:32:55And it's more impactful on a lander than

1:32:59it is in a long form ad text. Um,

1:33:04I mean, use emojis or whatever, but like

1:33:06I don't know. We don't use too many

1:33:07emojis. I I just think it's I think the

1:33:09big driver is contextual and just almost

1:33:11like trapping them and hoping that they

1:33:13read something while they're while

1:33:15they're just going like this

1:33:16>> trying to get out of it.

1:33:18>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

1:33:20>> Good hires like where are you finding

1:33:23your team at?

1:33:24>> Oh, this is leaders like where Yeah,

1:33:28>> this is one of my favorite topics. Um,

1:33:29but I'm gonna go fast. uh thread that's

1:33:32a you know I'll make a video at some

1:33:34point and share it uh all LinkedIn

1:33:38so everybody that we're hiring is in the

1:33:40Americas uh just around time zones and

1:33:44so I have this just and we look we have

1:33:47a guy in Turkey we got a couple guys in

1:33:49the Philippines who are who are we got a

1:33:51guy in Estonia and and I get it but like

1:33:55my general belief is that

1:33:58the human body is meant to sleep during

1:34:02the night. And so I just think you're

1:34:05innately going to have more cognition

1:34:06during the day and whatever. And so we

1:34:08for the most part hire in the Americas

1:34:10and it's all linked in. And the very

1:34:12quick way we do it, we run them through

1:34:14a quiz funnel with a bunch of knockout

1:34:16questions. I've shared this with you,

1:34:17John. And you ask some bunch of

1:34:19questions to take it from a big list to

1:34:21a small list. Then we do a video ask so

1:34:23I can tell if they're reading AI, if

1:34:24they can speak [ __ ] English. Oh, this

1:34:26is the most recent unlock. Then I do um

1:34:29not this part part after then I do a

1:34:3120-minute culture fit and um and then we

1:34:35started using case studies. Now this is

1:34:39[ __ ] nuts. So, the last round of

1:34:41creative strategists we hired, we had

1:34:43519

1:34:46um applicants over I think a 10day

1:34:49period. And we got to

1:34:54we had

1:34:57five or six people do case studies,

1:34:59which I'll tell you what those are in a

1:35:00second, and we ended up hiring one.

1:35:04>> A case study is going to take you six

1:35:06hours to complete. You basically have to

1:35:08create a PowerPoint presentation. You

1:35:10have 30 minutes to present it to us and

1:35:11then we get to ask you questions for 30

1:35:13minutes. And all I'm trying to do is

1:35:16test how you think and some of your

1:35:18skills. So you have to make a research

1:35:20brief. How do you do it? You have to get

1:35:23a creative brief. Make me one. You have

1:35:25to write some copy. You have to either

1:35:26rip some images that you like because

1:35:28I'm just looking for the eye or create

1:35:29some images. And then I give you sample

1:35:31data and tell me what you keep, kill,

1:35:32and scale.

1:35:34And then there's like some other stuff

1:35:36in there. Dude, it is amazing. And so

1:35:39the drop off on that step was really

1:35:41high. And so somebody on the on my team

1:35:43was like, I know it is, but they're

1:35:45like, dude, it takes like 6 hours. Do

1:35:48you think we should shorten it? I'm

1:35:49like, they're coming to us asking to uh

1:35:54asking for us to pay them $100,000 a

1:35:57year or more. If you can't take six

1:36:00hours of your time to prove to me that

1:36:03you were worth $100,000 a year or more,

1:36:07get the [ __ ] out of here.

1:36:10Like otherwise, you're going to get

1:36:12hired. You're going to be here for 30

1:36:13days. I'm going to waste all this time

1:36:14and I'm going to fire you. So, like that

1:36:17one was a really really big unlock for

1:36:19us. And so I think there's I think you

1:36:22can develop shorter case studies for

1:36:24different roles that might not be as

1:36:26demanding. But um yeah, dude, it's it's

1:36:30it's great. It's my favorite. It's my

1:36:32favorite thing these days.

1:36:34>> Jason, I got to run, man. I appreciate

1:36:36you. There was like 50 more questions we

1:36:38didn't get to. I'm going to have to

1:36:40carve out like three hours. So next time

1:36:41we do this, thank you, man. Uh guys,

1:36:45Jason's a G. He took his time. He asked

1:36:47for nothing in return. Uh, I'm sure if

1:36:50you had other questions, he's he's

1:36:51always down to help. Just drop them in

1:36:54the bulletproof scaling telegram. I'm

1:36:56sure I'm sure he'll answer if he sees

1:36:58it. But, uh,

1:36:59>> yeah, just tag tag me in it. Tag me. I'm

1:37:01happy.

1:37:02>> Thank you again, brother. Have a great

1:37:03day, guys. Thanks for having me. All

1:37:04right. Byebye. Yeah.