Full transcript
0:01I work for Pleine Vie , and this is for
0:02our monthly survey , so I have quite a
0:04few quick questions to ask you . Do you ,
0:08in your own experience , see more
0:10couples , more of these old love stories
0:12, getting back together or finding each
0:14other again years later , or is this
0:16something that has always existed to
0:18some extent ?
0:21Well , it happens , but it's really on
0:23the margins . It’s not super common .
0:26Ah , I see .
0:26It doesn’t — what does happen is
0:28people reconnecting . I have a couple
0:31right now who reconnected with their
0:33childhood sweetheart and , as a result ,
0:35she left her husband to go live with
0:37him . Well , there are some difficulties ,
0:39of course ; it's not ...
0:40We can talk about that later , yeah .
0:42But there you go . Yes , it does happen .
0:44Uh , but it’s not really super
0:46frequent .
0:48It's not necessarily people who
0:50separated , who lived through a story ,
0:52broke up , and then got back together
0:54after ...
0:55That can happen , too . Yes , yes , it can .
0:58There can be breakups , and then , after
1:01some time , they have other
1:03relationships here and there , and
1:05actually , they get back together
1:07because they realize it was still
1:09better between them than with their new
1:12partners , for example .
1:15I see . Ah , well , that’s actually one
1:17of the questions I wanted to ask you .
1:19It’s the reasons that might push
1:21someone to recontact an old partner
1:24years later , it’s not necessarily
1:26right away .
1:27Yes , it's not necessarily right away .
1:29Well , it’s precisely that , I think ,
1:31it could be the ideal I had built up ,
1:33that this person was unsatisfying , or
1:35we were in too much conflict , or they
1:37weren’t a good fit , because there are
1:39stages to go through that aren't
1:41obvious in a relationship ; it’s not
1:43just , we love each other and when we
1:45don't , we leave . So that’s a bit
1:48simplistic . So , there could be a
1:51fantasized ideal of someone perfect
1:54elsewhere , or at least better than the
1:57one in my relationship , or other
1:59reasons that lead us to end the
2:02relationship because , well , I don't
2:04meet your expectations or I'm chasing
2:07you too much or you're too smothering ,
2:10and so on . Regardless of the reasons
2:14for the breakup , it means that it was
2:15unsatisfying . The relationship , it just
2:18wasn't satisfying enough . So , they
2:21break up , they find a supposedly better
2:23partner who is a better match , but
2:25actually , they realize that in reality ,
2:27it's not really a better match at all .
2:30Because when you let someone go , you're
2:32also losing something good . And
2:35especially since we live in a society
2:37where we want passion so much , we want
2:39everything so much , that we can be
2:41disappointed in the , well , in the new
2:43relationship once the energy , the
2:45initial energy of the new relationship
2:47has passed , uh , the honeymoon phase ,
2:49and then it wears off . So , uh , we can
2:52also be in
2:53Is it ? It's it's a
2:54Yes , there is some
2:55misunderstanding of what we are losing ,
2:57of reality , and uh especially when the
2:58relationships aren't toxic , right . I'm
3:01not talking about toxic relationships
3:02here , but when you are attached to
3:04someone , you get a little bored or it's
3:06unsatisfying , and suddenly you
3:07fantasize about someone else with whom
3:09you have more desire and so on . So you
3:10try an experience over there , and you
3:12realize in the end that in reality ,
3:14after 2 or 3 years or whatever , well ,
3:16it's just as complicated . It's not ,
3:18it's not that simple ; other problems
3:20arise that weren't there with the other
3:21person and so on . So these things
3:24happen , and as a result , we don't
3:26really measure when we leave the person
3:29that satisfaction , uh , completeness as
3:31a couple isn't really of this world ,
3:33it's not really meant to be . So there
3:37is something like a fantasy , a romantic
3:39dream of a better elsewhere that is
3:41sometimes a bit excessive and doesn't
3:42hold up in reality . So , uh , well , it
3:45sometimes makes partners come back
3:47saying , I really , I mean , it's that I
3:49loved , I didn't measure that it
3:51actually isn't necessarily better over
3:53there .
3:54Yes , that's it . Perhaps we also confuse
3:57being in love with loving .
3:59Yes , but that's clear . Yes yes , but
4:02that's for sure , there is a more
4:04powerful attachment to passionate love
4:06or the state of being in love than to
4:09oxytocin love , which is the love that
4:11is associated with something more
4:14mundane , more boring , more bland ,
4:16actually .
4:19And that means that in those cases we
4:21continue to be to love the person
4:24despite the separation and that in fact
4:27Yes . Well , yes , absolutely , there are
4:30people who find it hard to detach
4:32because they sometimes don't have much
4:33to blame their partner for . Unless ,
4:36well , when there are many things to
4:37hold against someone , yes , we move on
4:39to the next and we’re convinced that
4:41that partner wasn’t the right one .
4:43But , but that’s not always the case ,
4:45because there is good and bad in a
4:47relationship , and even in what we find
4:49in a partner . So sometimes it’s more
4:52complicated to be completely sure , to
4:54say , yes , well , I’m leaving for good
4:56reasons , so we leave and we also lose
4:59the good parts of the relationship with
5:01the person we were attached to . And so
5:05we want to find that again . I have the
5:08example of one of my patients like that
5:11, who really loved his wife and family
5:13but who became infatuated with another
5:15woman who suited him , with whom the
5:17connection is actually much more
5:19powerful .
5:22Connection .
5:24Soul-to-soul connection , on the same
5:25wavelength , even though he got along
5:27well with the first one . But it was
5:30less connected . So , well , at some point
5:32he couldn't help but leave with the one
5:34he was more connected to . But since he
5:38still loved his wife , he had , well ,
5:39nothing to hold against her , except
5:41that , well , it just wasn't , well , it
5:43wasn't the other one . And , well , so ,
5:47well , he , 2 years , yeah , 3 years later ,
5:49he is still oscillating between " I
5:51regret what I lost " and " at the same
5:53time , I’m glad to have gained what I
5:55find with the other one because it’s
5:57more connected . " But , uh , there are
6:01also difficulties in reality , but he
6:02has trouble ...
6:04Ah , he has difficulties , ah , he has
6:06difficulties , uh , to finally ...
6:07Well , because it’s not perfect either
6:09, but it’s , it’s also good with the
6:11new one . But it’s also good , uh ,
6:12there is also the family with the other
6:14one , and then it’s also good with the
6:15first one .
6:16Well , that’s it , but neither of them
6:17wants to share him , that’s always the
6:19problem . So , as a result , well , he’s
6:21unstable , actually , it makes him , uh ,
6:23he regrets the first , but he loves the
6:25second , but he also loves the first ; he
6:27doesn't know where he stands , really .
6:29And so , uh , we see cases like that .
6:32Yes , that’s true . You were talking
6:34about idealizing elsewhere when you're
6:36in a couple , and the reason why we
6:37might break up ; we can also idealize
6:39the other person because they belong to
6:41the past , a form of nostalgia , a little
6:43bit .
6:43Yes . That is completely true . We often
6:46idealize , uh , impossible loves , the
6:48stories where we were on fire , which
6:51fizzled out , the stories where we sort
6:53of , uh , projected ourselves , uh ,
6:55thinking it was so beautiful what was
6:58happening with us , between us , but it
7:00wasn't possible to make it work ; it was
7:03left hanging in the air for some X or Y
7:05reason . And yes , yes , there is some
7:08romantic fantasy involved , yeah . A
7:11projection of something unfinished .
7:14That indeed , we want to rediscover , uh ,
7:16people often find each other on social
7:18networks or , uh , there's social media ,
7:20etc. , they find each other later . And
7:22there's this , uh , taste of the
7:24unfinished that wants to be finished .
7:28And sometimes , some take the leap , well
7:30, they try the experience ; others who
7:33are married , who can't really , but who
7:35continue to fantasize anyway , by , by
7:37seeing their ex again , and , uh ... but
7:39they fantasize like crazy because they
7:41can't live in , in reality . If they are
7:44married , they don't necessarily want to
7:46leave the couple they have formed . So
7:49it's always somewhat complicated
7:50stories , but the fantasy is always , uh ,
7:53well , the idealized and projected
7:55fantasy is always much more powerful
7:57than what we experience , uh , in our
7:59daily couple life . It messes with your
8:01head , as they say .
8:02Well , it happens , it happens at some
8:04point when you're no longer vibrating
8:05as a couple and it's going ...
8:06Yeah , that's it . Exactly , that's it .
8:09With both .
8:10Exact . That's it . So vibrating ... so the
8:12question is , why am I bored in ? Why am
8:14I vibrating ? Why am I ? That's a
8:16question to ask yourself , uh , and what
8:18is my responsibility in this , uh , and
8:20that of the other person , etc.
8:22It's not really the topic , but , uh , but
8:24can we manage to distinguish an
8:26authentic love , uh , I mean , the fact of
8:29coming back to , uh , a ... ? Is it that ,
8:32uh , how to know if it's real love or
8:34more of a need to ...
8:36Oh , well , because when you go back for
8:38seconds , it goes better . Well , it's
8:41more peaceful , it's more ... Yes , it's
8:44more peaceful , it's more of a deep love
8:46. I would say it's more of a , uh , less
8:49passionate , but , pro-more profound love
8:51. We've let go of some stuff . So we're
8:54not in the same place as back when we
8:55first saw each other .
8:57Yeah , exactly , that's it . When we come
9:00back a second time , is it necessarily
9:02different from the first , and does it
9:05have to be ?
9:07Well yes , because we aren't the same
9:09people . We are always changing . So we
9:11can't be in the same place , even if at
9:13first we're on the same page , you know .
9:15That doesn't last because we’ve each
9:17had other experiences since , we aren't
9:20the same anymore , we don't have the
9:23same outlooks , so naturally as we
9:25mature , we don't see things the same
9:27way . And we don't need the same things .
9:30So we can't pick up exactly where we
9:32left off , because we aren't there
9:34anymore .
9:35Hmm .
9:36And it's all the more interesting to
9:38rework the bond where things were
9:40dysfunctional . If the reasons were , say
9:43, geographical distance that separated
9:46us , well fine , but if it's because
9:47there were conflicts , if it's because
9:49one wanted to see other people and the
9:52other didn't , etc. , that's different .
9:56What were the reasons we separated , and
9:58if that's been reworked , if it's calmed
10:00down , then it's okay . Ah , exactly .
10:03So , does the fact of having finally
10:06matured during this period of
10:09separation , can that be a guarantee of
10:12better , or at least a success , so that
10:16it's better the second time ?
10:19That's completely true , completely true
10:21. Yes , we don't see things the same way
10:23anymore . Because we've had other
10:26experiences and we've understood
10:28certain things , and yes , so we no
10:30longer want to keep repeating the same
10:32experiences that don't lead very far ,
10:34you know .
10:37But despite everything , there are those
10:39that don't work a second time .
10:42Absolutely , absolutely . There are some
10:44who get back together and it doesn't
10:46work at all because they haven't
10:48reworked things . They still have the
10:51same hopes but they haven't reworked
10:54them , or " reworked " in the sense of
10:56having realizations about what the
10:58mechanics were between them that were
11:00dysfunctional . So if we don't see that ,
11:04well yes , and if we don't see what
11:06we're doing differently , then we keep
11:07doing the same things as before and it
11:09can't work any better since we're
11:11repeating the same thing .
11:13But then , what is it , what needs to be
11:16put in place for it to work ? And that
11:18depends on each person , but maybe there
11:21is still ... well , it's self-reflection .
11:23It's first : why didn't it work between
11:26us ? Well , if it’s not , let’s say ,
11:29some kind of geographical distance that
11:31kept us apart , okay , but if it’s , I
11:33don’t know , like you were chasing me
11:35too much , you were too needy — anxious
11:37attachment and avoidant attachment for
11:39example — and the other was always
11:41running away , and there was no real ,
11:43authentic communication , for example ,
11:45we’re no longer able to communicate
11:47without blaming each other , and well ,
11:49one of us has changed , for instance ,
11:51talks more , is less emotionally
11:53over-controlled and all that , well ,
11:54naturally , it’s smoother . So there
12:00really needs to be , either both
12:02partners , or at least a diagnosis of
12:04what was not present enough or too
12:06present at the time that caused the
12:08couple to split up . So , the diagnosis
12:12of the separation , the reasons for the
12:14breakup , and seeing how we’ve made
12:16that evolve .
12:18But we’re still the same people ,
12:19though . Well , no .
12:21I mean , we’re still the same , but
12:22we’re not the same .
12:24Yeah , that's it . But we’re still
12:26going to start falling back into the
12:27same old patterns after a while , even
12:29if ...
12:30No , not necessarily . Take communication
12:33, for example ; if we’ve truly learned
12:35— it is a skill , after all — to use
12:38much more authentic communication and
12:41it’s possible , and then when we
12:43disagree , we find common ground , well ,
12:46then it’ll work out . Because the
12:49better we know each other , the less we
12:51fear the other will abandon us every
12:52five minutes . There’s that , too .
12:56There’s a taming process , a sense of
12:57security that settles in ; we’re less
12:59afraid to get angry , for instance ,
13:00thinking , " Oh no , if I get mad because
13:02I don’t agree , they’ll run off . "
13:04Well no , they already , well , they left
13:05once , but they came back , which means
13:07they really care about me . So it’s
13:09something that also deepens over time ,
13:11this sense of security . Especially if
13:14we bring back the elements that were
13:16missing back then , bring them back into
13:18the picture . It’s often communication
13:22, though there can be other things , but
13:25like , sex for example , anything sexual
13:27or physical .
13:29Well , often with sexuality , it’s
13:32usually psychological blockages . I
13:36don't think I'm meeting your
13:37expectations ; I feel rejected , you're
13:39smothering me , you have too many
13:41demands . Actually , it's often more
13:43about me putting pressure on myself to
13:45satisfy you because you're important to
13:48me . And that's psychological . So that
13:52can also be looked at , uh , either by a
13:55therapist or perhaps , well , because
13:57when we get back together , we still
14:00want things to go well . Otherwise , we
14:03wouldn't be getting back together ,
14:04right ?
14:05Oh , well , yes .
14:06And so
14:07it goes well , at least in the beginning
14:08, because otherwise
14:09Well , yes , yes , yes , yes . Otherwise , we
14:12aren't going to start things up again ,
14:13are we ? And so , we need security ,
14:17meaning that both partners find a sense
14:19of safety in getting back together .
14:23That's super important , and then
14:25there's the more vibrant side . So ,
14:28sexuality , what are we going to share
14:30together , what are we not going to
14:32share together ? What connects us ? Is
14:35there a plan ? Sometimes the plan is
14:38just that we're together and we see
14:39each other often ; there's no need for
14:41big plans , you know . But what do we
14:44share during the time we spend together
14:45?
14:46Well , there are still things that need
14:48to change despite everything .
14:49Oh yes , and you have to put your finger
14:52on them .
14:52Yeah .
14:54And in any case , are we the same , or
14:55are we not the same ? We really need to
14:59pinpoint the present compared to the
15:01past , since we've matured , we've had
15:03other experiences : what have we learned
15:04, what do we no longer want to
15:06experience like before ? For example , I
15:09would set my boundaries more than I did
15:11before , I would speak up more about
15:12what I want , I would ask you for
15:13support , I wouldn't force myself to do
15:15things . Basically , we really need to
15:17point out what has changed since the
15:18last time .
15:21And then , conversely , you mentioned
15:23toxic relationships earlier , there are
15:26so many people who get back together ,
15:29but in the context of , well , in toxic
15:32relationships , it's very , very common ,
15:35there are even a lot of breakups and
15:38makeups ; what actually distinguishes a
15:41relationship like that ?
15:44Well , it means that we get back
15:46together because we're very in love ,
15:48and it's very passionate , and we are
15:50very dependent or we are codependent .
15:53Uh , and so , uh , it's going to end up in
15:55another , we're going back for another
15:58spin on the carousel . But there isn't
16:00that security that we're also looking
16:03for elsewhere .
16:05Yeah , where where exactly is the
16:08toxicity ? In the in the ?
16:10The the the on the suffering . That is ,
16:13on the feeling of insecurity . I don't
16:15feel safe with this person .
16:17Hmm .
16:18I I think uh , yes , and uh , that's it ,
16:20I'm not I don't feel safe , so I don't
16:22feel at peace inside , you know .
16:25Yes , yes .
16:26OK . And so , uh , as a result , well , as a
16:29result , well , there you go , so it
16:31creates uh stress and suffering . That's
16:34why I talked a lot about the feeling of
16:36security , uh , because if this element
16:39is missing , then the passionate couple
16:41will quickly become
16:42passionate-fissionate again . It starts
16:45all over again .
16:46Passionate-fissionate .
16:48Yes , because I didn't invent it , I
16:50think it was Vincent Cespedes or
16:51someone else , I don't remember where I
16:53read it . But uh , yes , it's , it's forced
16:56, it's , it's , we can't , we are
16:57dependent . So , we can't help getting
17:00back together because it's intense and
17:01all , we can't do without each other .
17:05But since there isn't that security
17:06which is the base for being able to go
17:08about your business , you know , because
17:09why is the feeling of security ? Because
17:12that way , I can unfold in my life ,
17:14otherwise , I can't unfold . I am I
17:16centralize everything on the
17:17relationship , I'm stressed , the other
17:19person is my savior , otherwise I can't
17:20continue my path actually . So it's not
17:23very interesting , you know , after a
17:25while , we burn ourselves out in it , it
17:27doesn't it doesn't radiate .
17:29Hmm . And what what to say what to say
17:33to someone what what would you advise
17:36someone who is considering recontacting
17:39an ex ?
17:43Well why not , but on the condition that
17:45uh that it's peaceful , that we don't
17:47start over like before if it was a
17:49fiery relationship or one that made me
17:51suffer .
17:54Well , on the condition of the real the
17:56reasons for which you're doing it
17:57because
17:58Well yes , why did we ? If we separated
18:00and one of us was suffering a lot , we
18:01don't get back together from the same
18:03place . I shouldn't start suffering
18:05again , you know .
18:07Yes , because in the other direction ,
18:10you can have someone who wants to get
18:13back with their partner because they
18:15feel a void , but the one who left was
18:18the one who was suffering .
18:22Exactly . When you leave for reasons
18:25related to emotional or sexual
18:27dependency , as long as you haven't
18:29resolved that issue of dependency ,
18:31you’re in trouble . Well , you get back
18:34together for the wrong reasons , so
18:36obviously , it’s going to be
18:37complicated .
18:39Uh , as for childhood or teenage loves ,
18:42where a couple often breaks up and
18:45nobody even knows why .
18:47Yes .
18:48Uh , I’ve had several cases like that
18:50where things come back years and years
18:53later . How do you explain that ? What is
18:56the ?
18:57Uh , there’s that youthful , teenage
19:00aspect , like " this is my great story , " "
19:03the story of my life , " there’s a
19:05somewhat idyllic projection that
19:07ignores reality . And so it remained
19:11imprinted , those first love stories ,
19:14it’s often something very strong ,
19:16actually . Very engaging . Well , at least
19:20for the one who fantasized , it’s ,
19:22well , it’s an imprint , a strong
19:24memory of an emotional state from those
19:27first loves that lasts .
19:29It’s idealization .
19:30Yes .
19:31Or not , for that matter .
19:32Well , yes , it’s often idealization .
19:35Well then , how can we explain that it
19:37might work out , despite everything ?
19:40Because the reality principle will
19:41always be the deciding factor . So ,
19:45it’s only by getting together that
19:47we’ll see if it works or not .
19:49Yes , I agree with that .
19:51Well , yes , only real-world experience
19:52can verify if it’s going to lead to
19:54something or not , because otherwise , we
19:56won’t know .
19:58I , I have trouble explaining it myself ;
20:00I had someone tell me , " Deep down , I
20:03should have trusted the teenager I was .
20:05" Although , she doesn’t regret having
20:07lived another life , you know , having
20:08lived that life , and then .
20:10Yeah .
20:11Having returned , having crossed paths
20:13again with her childhood sweetheart who
20:15, ultimately , hadn't really existed ,
20:17since her current husband , actually ,
20:19her childhood sweetheart wasn't in love
20:21with her back then , basically . So , she
20:25was telling herself that , well , she
20:27should have listened to her teenage
20:29self , that in the end , she hadn't
20:30really changed that much . And , actually
20:34, that's it : even though you'd think
20:36that having 30 years of experience and
20:39returning to the person you were as a
20:42teenager ... I mean , it seems almost
20:44strange that it works .
20:48Yes , it's rare . Well , it's rare because
20:50it's a fantasy , really . Uh , so , just to
20:54know the end of the story , did she get
20:57into a relationship with him , or ?
21:00Oh yes , they're together , they have
21:01children , they're married , uh .
21:03And is it going well ?
21:04Well , apparently , yes .
21:06Yeah . So , she doesn't regret it at
21:09all . No , no , she doesn't regret it . Not
21:10at all . She even finds it , actually , I
21:14think there's also a form of pride
21:16behind it , in the end , or even not
21:19pride , but the feeling , when they talk
21:21about it ... I had another one who spoke
21:24to me about it too , like " it's
21:26wonderful , life is incredible , " as if
21:29it were a bit , uh , it was ... I have the
21:32things in English and it was " it was
21:34meant to be , " you know .
21:37Yeah . Uh , OK . Uh , so is it quite
21:44possible that , in principle ,
21:46reality-wise , the love story from back
21:48then works ? After the " it's wonderful ,
21:52I triumphed with him , he's the man of
21:55my life , da-di-da-da " thing , uh , I'm
21:58convincing myself , that's not entirely
22:01true . It's just me convincing myself ,
22:03but there are problems with everyone
22:04since nobody is perfect . But that
22:06doesn't mean the relationship isn't
22:07going well . That's all . But it's going
22:10well , just not " wonderful . " It's just
22:12that it's going well and it works well
22:14between them . Well , that's a good thing
22:15.
22:18Yes , yes , no , but it's , I , there was
22:20still a questioning about the fact ,
22:22despite everything , of always returning
22:25to something from before , because it's
22:27still , I mean , even if there aren't any
22:29beautiful stories behind it and you
22:32don't get back together , I mean , it's
22:34so common , for example among , uh , I
22:36don't want to make it a thing , but
22:38there are many men who reach out , uh ,
22:41go looking into the potential past of
22:43people who mattered . Uh , well , I think
22:47it's quite common , I don't know .
22:50It's common because they don't like
22:51being alone as much , they're less
22:52equipped to be alone during breakups .
22:55So they go looking , not all of them ,
22:56though . But some will go back to their
22:59exes thinking it's the easy way out .
23:02Well . Uh .
23:04Not , not that much , actually .
23:05Well no , not that much . Well , because
23:07in fact , we're making the thesis here ,
23:08we can make the thesis and the
23:09antithesis . Yes , it can work if we're
23:11not in the same place , if we've changed
23:14, if , and it might very well not work .
23:17Hmm .
23:18So , uh , it's not a sure thing at all .
23:21Oh no no no , well no , and then there
23:22are the codes , the codes to reset , you
23:24know .
23:25Uh , it's also , for some men or some
23:27women , a way to find their childhood
23:30sweetheart because there's a positive
23:32projection . Uh , it's my childhood love ,
23:35my great love , it was left unfinished ,
23:37we couldn't go all the way . So there's
23:39a kind of positive projection uh to the
23:41idea of getting back together , and then
23:44the reality principle will take over .
23:46But sometimes we are so powerful at
23:48convincing ourselves that it's
23:49wonderful that it actually becomes
23:51wonderful .
23:54Then there's also the question of , I
23:55don't know if you'd agree with this ,
23:57but a matter of timing , actually ,
23:58people aren't in the same place at the
24:00same time . There can be people with
24:02whom things are going well , but it's
24:04just not the right moment .
24:05That's often the case . That's often the
24:07case . Someone , yes that's often the
24:09case , uh , well it's not the right time
24:11because I'm already married or I'm
24:13already committed to someone , uh you're
24:16not , uh , but now , uh , we meet again ,
24:18well now we're both married or , uh , how
24:20do we ? We don't want to hurt our
24:22partners whom we care about . Yes , yes ,
24:24that's very often the case . And so , uh .
24:27Well , in fact , for , yes that's it , for
24:29a relationship to work , there are ,
24:30there are , there are basic ingredients
24:31after all .
24:32Oh well yes , there are couples . Oh , I
24:34often hear stories like that from
24:36patients who say : " But it's an
24:37impossible love because he or she is
24:39married and , uh , he or she doesn't want
24:41to , to , to , to blow up , uh , the couple
24:43and the family , even if , uh , I'm really
24:45no longer the right person , well I'm no
24:47longer in connection with him or her ,
24:49but , uh , he doesn't , he doesn't want to
24:51let go of his children or she doesn't
24:53want to let go of her children . " " there
24:56are plenty of
24:57It's very common and so there is there
24:59is what will maintain the passion with
25:01the the the the second partner since
25:04what maintains it is the transgression ,
25:06it cannot happen . Everything that is
25:09impossible increases the state of being
25:11in love , so necessarily it remains a
25:13fantasy and
25:14it's the same , it's doomed finally it's
25:16it's the same it's doomed to failure
25:17too if
25:18Well , it's above all above all
25:19fantasizing about someone with whom we
25:21know very well that we can it's not
25:23possible in we can't be a couple . What
25:25I often say , I often say well listen
25:30love is not enough to be a couple , the
25:32proof since it's complicated it's not
25:34the right time he can't because of his
25:36children , I don't know what , well . So
25:40it doesn't mean there is no love , it
25:42means that in matter this couple cannot
25:45form .
25:47In matter Ah yes , that's it .
25:48matter meaning in the in the real world
25:50, it can't form . However , we can really
25:53love someone uh uh who still lives but
25:55it's not possible for this couple to
25:58exist on a daily basis for example in
26:00terms of not being a couple .
26:02Hmm . Hmm .
26:03Because it's not the right time because
26:05there are imponderables because well
26:07that's how it is . Uh however it's not
26:11love that is enough to because there
26:13are really romantic illusions that love
26:15is enough to blow everything up if he
26:18really loved me he would have left I
26:20don't know what things like that .
26:23Yes .
26:23No. No.
26:25No because there are different forms of
26:27attachment and yes no but there is love
26:29is not enough you really need several
26:31ingredients .
26:32But yes but we are really we are we are
26:34soaked in
26:35Yes .
26:35Lots of slightly naive things , like "
26:38but love should be enough " . Well no ,
26:40sometimes it's not enough , it's the
26:41reality principle that is definitive .
26:44And then : " But I don't understand , if
26:45he really loved me , he would have let
26:46go of his children , he promised me . " "
26:49I had one yesterday , and I told her : '
26:51It's not that ... he was sincere , but
26:53there was a part of him that felt
26:55guilty about leaving his wife and kids ,
26:57and ' and that part takes over . " So he
27:00preferred to cut ties and protect
27:02himself , and it makes him suffer with
27:05you because it's too painful to stay
27:07connected to you knowing he can't
27:09commit to you . And she just couldn't
27:11understand that . I had to read the same
27:13thing to her three or four times . That
27:15she really , there wasn't , there wasn't ,
27:17there was
27:17because there must have been some form
27:19of insecurity in her too .
27:21Well , meaning she was married , but she
27:23wanted to , she was ready to commit to
27:25him , and he , well , he said , " Yes , I'd
27:27like to , " but he preferred , he chose
27:29his wife and his children . And there
27:31you go , so that was her take : " So he
27:33can't , he doesn't love me , it's certain
27:34, I don't understand , he doesn't love
27:36me . " But it's not that he doesn't love
27:37you .
27:38Yes , that has nothing to do with it .
27:39No.
27:40I mean , it doesn't have anything to do
27:42with it , anyway .
27:42Well no , but that's , that's why , that's
27:44the representation : love should allow
27:46us to be together since
27:47since we are bathed and nourished and
27:51soaked in
27:52that's the soulmate stories : " We are
27:54soulmates , our love is greater than
27:56everything , so it should allow us to
27:57find each other , to live together , and
27:59to have a great , a great story , " but
28:02And that's a bit , that's a bit of the
28:03feeling I get when hearing about those
28:05who find their childhood sweethearts
28:06again . Less so than those who were
28:09actually confronted with reality and
28:10separated , then got back together , so
28:12there's likely some form of reflection
28:14between the two .
28:15Yeah , I think so , yeah .
28:16Yeah , that's it .
28:17Yeah , that's it . Well yes , because
28:20we've analyzed , we point out what
28:21didn't work , I mean we have more
28:23maturity , we have more of an adult self
28:25. That's the daydreaming , it's the
28:28daydreaming , it's a projection , you
28:30know , it's a fantasy .
28:32With a stroke of luck , or with luck ,
28:34for it to work out , you know .
28:36Yes , and it can work out at the same
28:38time because , since it's a coin toss ,
28:40sometimes it works , but often it
28:41doesn't work that well because there
28:43are many positive projections
28:45you know .
28:46But that , yes , that prevents seeing
28:48that there isn't always , we won't be
28:50totally — no partner on earth will ever
28:52fulfill me completely . No. Totally , no .
28:56Well no .
28:57Hmm .
28:57There is no situation . So that is the
28:59basic principle . So once you've grasped
29:01that , things go better . But that's the
29:04Yes , but that's the problem . Otherwise ,
29:06we're in a world of perfection .
29:07Yeah .
29:08It would be perfect , my one true love ,
29:10today it's wonderful and our whole life
29:12is wonderful , they'll always understand
29:14me and love me for who I am . Well , no .
29:18They'll love me Well , no , no . It's not
29:20It's not perfect . So so no , that
29:22doesn't work .
29:24Very well . Well , listen , thank you very
29:26much .
29:28Did I think Did I , in your opinion ,
29:30cover uh Well , it seems Did I forget
29:32some ?
29:33Yeah , the title was uh
29:36They loved each other a second time .
29:37Uh second time . Must leave it to the
29:40conclusion uh uh Must say yes , it's
29:43possible . Yes , it's possible because
29:45it's true , it's possible and besides ,
29:47there are examples that prove it .
29:48Hmm .
29:49It's not the majority because often
29:51what's complicated for second times is
29:53really not to put
29:55Hmm .
29:55uh not to redo what we've already done .
29:58Hmm .
29:58Uh because it's not possible , that that
30:00won't work . Especially if we've already
30:02had a couple experience before , right .
30:04Uh after uh it's possible , it's maybe
30:07easier when it was just brief romances ,
30:09a bit projected and then well , we So we
30:11didn't really date that much , we didn't
30:13really act as a couple . So then , well ,
30:16we act as a couple , we see if it works
30:17or not . Uh and then uh it can be on the
30:20contrary very disappointing uh if uh we
30:23expect uh we tell ourselves we expect
30:26too much from the relationship because
30:28we don't like being single
30:31Hmm .
30:32We don't like living alone and we say
30:33to ourselves I'm going to get my ex
30:35back and then uh there were so many
30:37good moments between us that I'm going
30:39to relive that , it will save my life ,
30:40it will do me so much good . There ,
30:42there is a risk of having
30:43disappointments nonetheless .
30:46OK . Thank you very much and then and
30:52then so how do I introduce you how uh
30:58Ah yes , uh so uh yes , Véronique Kohn ,
30:59so I am a psychologist , psychotherapist
31:01specializing in romantic relationships .
31:03And if you could put a little uh link
31:05to my site because that's where there
31:07try . Yeah yeah , I'll put that .
31:09veroniquekohn.com and uh and there you
31:11go and after that people find
31:12everything uh
31:13Yeah .
31:13a YouTube channel where generally
31:15people know me from my channel .
31:16Ah yes , you have a ? Got it .
31:18Oh , I don't know how you found me then .
31:20Through my channel .
31:21I looked for , uh , I looked for , I
31:23looked for some kind of — well , I don't
31:25know , I used keywords like usual , uh .
31:27Oh yeah . Yes , because generally I have
31:29a channel and I'm known from my channel
31:30or from my site where all the events
31:31are , there you go .
31:32But that's why you have this , this
31:34incredible equipment .
31:36Oh , well yes .
31:38Oh yeah . It wasn't , uh , I hadn't seen ,
31:41you see .
31:41You knew ? Well , I was sure that you had
31:43me on , uh , that it was my channel .
31:45From your site , I don't remember how ,
31:47but .
31:47Ah yes yes , no , but I have a channel
31:49where I constantly give lectures ,
31:51constantly , constantly , constantly , so ,
31:53uh .
31:54Oh , okay .
31:55Okay , well , there you go .
31:59On a personal note , I’m closing up
32:01shop here , but on a personal note , uh ,
32:02you were talking earlier about
32:04anxious-avoidant attachment ; I have the
32:06impression that the anxious person goes
32:07toward the avoidant and vice-versa , is
32:09it —
32:10I have an online course that I just
32:12finished , by the way , an online
32:14coaching program called " Anxious
32:16Attachment , Avoidant Attachment :
32:18Breaking free from this neurotic
32:20pattern . "
32:22Well , we see it everywhere , everywhere ,
32:24yeah , you're not the only one .
32:26Because it is — The famous , uh ,
32:31hyper-neurotic pattern that creates the
32:33state of being in love , by the way . And
32:36one runs after the other , and the other
32:38flees , and then yes , and then the other
32:40—
32:40Oh , yes , that's the foundation of that
32:41state ?
32:42Well yes , the state of being in love .
32:44Oh yes , didn't I tell you ? I say it so
32:45often . But you'll listen to me on my
32:47channel , I don't stop repeating it all
32:48the time .
32:49Yeah , but it's not as obvious as all
32:51that , in the end .
32:51Oh yes , I was sure that everyone was —
32:53I say it so much that , uh , the basis of
32:55the state of being in love , the major
32:56ingredient , is that the other person
32:58escapes me . The other person doesn't
33:01make me feel that secure . As long as
33:03they escape me , as long as there is
33:05tension , uh , well , I run after them . Uh
33:08, as long as I know they are truly ,
33:09totally , completely secured , well ,
33:11I’m happy , but , uh — especially women
33:12— I’m happy , but hey , there you go ,
33:14well , it's nice , right ? Well .
33:18But , but then I get tired of it and I
33:20get bored .
33:22Well yeah , I kind of snooze , I rest on
33:23my laurels , but well , there you go .
33:25And the avoidant , they don't do it on
33:27purpose , going toward an anxious person
33:28to , uh —
33:29Uh , uh he is drawn to that very warm ,
33:33empathetic , and complementary side ;
33:36warm , exuberant , extroverted , uh very
33:39cuddly , very smiley , there you go . And
33:44so he also finds warmth and love there
33:45because he’s a bit cold himself . So
33:48that suits him well . And then later , uh
33:50, he can’t take it anymore because
33:52the other person becomes dependent and ,
33:53well , it suffocates him , actually ; it
33:55feels intrusive .
33:56Hmm .
33:59So you have too many expectations .
34:01Exactly , so that’s a classic , let’s
34:03say , neurotic relationship dynamic , but
34:04it’s just so classic , you know . Which
34:07makes both of them work on themselves . "
34:08Toxic " and everything , I find those
34:10words , uh , completely excessive .
34:12Uh , yes , because there are a lot of "
34:13narcissists " being thrown around
34:15everywhere , while in fact , it’s not
34:16as true as that . But what we see quite
34:18frequently instead is anxious
34:19attachment with avoidant attachment .
34:22That is a , a big , a big piece ; that’s
34:23why I created a coaching program for it
34:25, so people can see things more clearly
34:27. Which makes both the avoidant and the
34:30anxious person work on themselves .
34:33Well , the avoidant still has to be
34:35willing to work on it .
34:36Yes , I do have avoidant clients , you
34:37know . It’s interesting because they
34:40also suffer eventually because , by not
34:42working on themselves regarding how
34:43they cut themselves off from their
34:45relationships , well , they repeat
34:47relationships where they end up alone ,
34:49and that’s not great either , you know
34:50. That’s not what they want .
34:52Hmm . Yeah . Uh , the whole foundation is
34:57therefore the attachment we received .
35:00Yes , that’s part of the imprinting .
35:03So , uh , we are imprinted by our
35:05attachment histories , by our , our , our
35:07parental figures , and there is also the
35:09transgenerational aspect in a broader
35:12sense .
35:13Oh yeah .
35:13Uh , which will play a role in genetics ,
35:15you know . Uh , so it’s , and culture
35:17also plays a role in our , our , our
35:20behaviors . So it’s , it’s a whole
35:23set , including our interoception ; if we
35:25are tired , if we are sick , we don’t
35:27react the same way . So it’s a bit
35:29multifactorial . It’s not just the
35:31initial attachment .
35:32Hmm .
35:33It’s also what environment I find
35:34myself in , you know . It’s a bit more
35:36complex than that .
35:37Hmm .
35:38Uh , but , uh , there you go , you have to
35:40examine , a bit , all these factors
35:42before saying , " Oh well , it’s just my
35:44attachment , just my background . " There
35:46you go .
35:47Yeah , the idea is perhaps not
35:48necessarily to go and understand why we
35:50are like this , or at least not to dwell
35:52on it .
35:53Having those realizations , it helps .
35:54When I identify that I have an anxious
35:56attachment , then I can start doing the
35:58work .
35:58Oh , absolutely . But understanding the ,
36:01knowing the ...
36:02Yeah , no , no , sometimes , uh , no ,
36:04sometimes it doesn't help , no .
36:05That's true .
36:06Sometimes it's not worth getting too
36:08worked up , no , it doesn't always change
36:10things , no .
36:10No , and , uh , we'll never have the ,
36:12there isn't really any of that .
36:15Anyway , once you know where it comes
36:16from , well , uh , the idea is how do I go
36:18about transforming that , right ?
36:19Exactly . Hmm .
36:21And , okay .
36:22Yeah , I think so . Uh , thank you so much
36:24, we have a , a side track , sorry .
36:26My pleasure .
36:27In any case , I'll definitely check out
36:28the channel .
36:29Yeah , my pleasure . My pleasure . Have a
36:32good day .
36:32Thanks , have a good day . Goodbye .
36:34Goodbye .