Full transcript
0:00Olivier: Hello! Hello Stéphanette. Thank you for coming. Hello John-Peter.
0:09John-Peter: Hello.
0:10Olivier: Enchanted. Get comfortable. (they sit down)
0:12Well, first of all, thank you for both coming to the meeting as we discussed together
0:20on the phone. We spoke face to face, well not face to face but two
0:26by two on the phone some time ago to discuss the subject that concerns you; and then
0:32so that it would be an opportunity for me also to explain to you a little how it was all going to happen,
0:38how it was going to work. Would it be useful for you, before we start,
0:44for me to rephrase a little, to tell you again how it will happen, how we will work...?
0:52John-Peter: Yes. Olivier: Yes? All right. So the first thing that
0:55is important is that it is a conversation that is going to take place there, and this conversation
1:00belongs to you, it is your conversation. This means that you tackle the subjects you
1:06want, in the order you choose, you spend the time you think is necessary,
1:12you talk about them in the way you want, both of you...and I am here to support
1:20this conversation, to listen to you, to accompany you in this dialogue... Hum... there you go,
1:30and perhaps this conversation... as it develops,
1:33will allow everyone to between you to perhaps better understand the other's point of view...
1:41perhaps also to clarify your own thoughts, your own opinion on things. Hum... there you go,
1:51so maybe the objectives, one's own objectives, the other's objectives etc. These
1:56are things that you will perhaps address, and which will probably, perhaps, make you
2:02progress on... on this subject on which you disagree and which opposes you today.
2:09You obviously have, we're going to give ourselves around thirty minutes, eh, roughly
2:16for this first exchange. So this time, as I said, you use it as you wish,
2:22and if one or the other of you feels the need at any given moment to take a moment aside
2:29with me to tell me something something in private, it is entirely possible, and if one asks,
2:37perhaps the other will want to do the same. It's open, it's whatever you want. OK?
2:42John-Peter: Okay
2:43Olivier: So perhaps before we start, would you like to set your own rules of the game
2:53in relation to this conversation, on which you would agree.
2:57John Peter: Not for me.
2:59Olivier: Not for you?
3:01Stéphanette: No, I'm actually counting on you. Olivier: Okay, you're counting on me, and you don't feel
3:04the need for rules of the game either. Ok, so we can go. Perhaps one
3:09of you would like to start, tackle a first subject?
3:16John-Peter: Well, it was you Stéphanette who complained about me to the manager,
3:23and it would be up to you to say why you did that.
3:26Stéphanette: Ok. So... already I would also like you to know that we are here on my initiative,
3:37that I really want things to calm down, for things to take their
3:44proper place, because indeed things got out of hand, ... that's why I asked for this
3:52mediation because I think we need it. We need it because what has happened in
3:59recent months on the projects that are common to us, on our teamwork,
4:05does not suit me at all. That I was greatly hurt, tested by this,
4:12and that I absolutely did not understand or accept the last intervention that
4:19you made purely in your name by voluntarily and completely excluding me from management.
4:25Olivier: Stéphanette, you specify that it was you who wanted this exchange
4:30because you were deeply hurt by certain facts, by the attitude of John-Peter,
4:37in particular with regard to the presentation
4:39of this project to management from which you felt totally excluded.
4:45S: Yes.
4:48John Peter: From there to going directly to the manager
4:52and then complaining about this situation, I found that completely unacceptable Stéphanie,
5:00in the time we have worked together. Since we... No, I haven't taken it
5:05Olivier: What you found totally unacceptable, John-Peter,
5:08Stéphanette should go and talk to the manager about this directly.
5:13JP: Yes, I experienced it like a knife in the back.
5:16Stéphanette: Hm hm. JP: I asked myself all kinds of questions. Did you want
5:21to make me look bad, did you want to have...my face? In any case, I didn't understand anything.
5:28Olivier: Yes, you experienced it like a knife in the back,
5:30and you wondered what Stéphanette's intentions were against you.
5:36JP: Yes, of course. Of course.
5:37Stéphanette: But that gives you an idea of what I felt when you didn't put my name on
5:41the presentation of the last project. We're equals there. We felt exactly the same thing.
5:46JP: No, not at all. Stéphanette: Well yes.
5:46JP: Not at all.
5:48Stéphanette: It’s a stab in the back for me too, to be excluded in this way.
5:52Olivier: Stéphanette you believe that the fact of having been excluded from the, we will say,
5:56from the signature, from the display of those who had worked on this
5:59presentation was for you also a knife in the back, an exclusion.
6:03Stéphanette: Clearly.
6:04JP: So you're completely wrong. Listen… this presentation,
6:11it’s true that we started together.
6:14S: Yes.
6:15JP: But very quickly, you were taken with your new mission in Toulouse,
6:22and I had to continue on my own. I really felt, at first,
6:29very helpless. We work well together, and there I had half the team missing
6:35. So I had to continue almost alone. So if your name wasn't there,
6:44for me it reflected reality. So there's no knife in the back there.
6:49Olivier: Yes, so you completely disagree on the meaning of the fact that your name,
6:55Stéphanette, is absent from the report presented by John-Peter. You, Stéphanette, believe
7:01that it is the symptom of exclusion, of betrayal, of a knife in the back;
7:06while you, John-Peter, point out that this is just a demonstration of reality and
7:14that it symbolizes the absence of Stéphanette on this file for some time.
7:18JP: It was a faithful reflection of reality as I have seen it
7:23since your departure for Toulouse, where I can no longer count on your expertise,
7:30your experience which complemented mine; and I had a very difficult time with it.
7:36S: So, excuse me but earlier you said... you didn't say that I wasn't
7:42present at all; you said I was almost no longer present. There is still... there is the almost,
7:47and you even unconsciously used it yourself: almost no longer present. And you,
7:50with this act of not putting me on the presentation, you completely eliminated me. So,
7:56you complain about my lack of work on this file but you exclude me completely yourself.
8:01So my position is really... I don't know what you expect of me anymore,
8:05management is sending me to work elsewhere on a big project as well and I'm forced
8:10to carry everything, and I'm still getting this stab from “ok now
8:15you are kicking me out of this project”. That's how I experienced it. You chased me away...
8:20JP: I'm not chasing you, I'm just observing the facts. It is therefore an
8:27act of will on my part, I am once again in a very painful situation,
8:33I had to seek coaching in relation to gaps in my expertise,
8:38my experience, to compensate for your absence in this project . And since
8:42I didn't want it to be known, I paid for this coaching out of my own pocket.
8:46S: Ah yes, so you do everything, you do things,
8:51that’s my problem. You do a lot of things under the radar,
8:55you're going to pay coaches out of your own pocket, you're not going to ask me. If I don't know,
9:01if you don't explain things to me and you don't come and give me the information,
9:05how do you expect me to be able to... You blame me for an absence when you don't come to ask me.
9:12JP: Before coming to the coaching solution, how many emails did I send you to try
9:19to make an appointment with you on Skype? Never any availability on your part... you turned a
9:27deaf ear to me, Stéphanette, it was not with joy of heart that I came to this solution.
9:34Olivier: This is a point on which you seem to differ strongly,
9:37that is to say that Stéphanette you say that John-Peter leaves you aside,
9:42does not solicit you, while you John-Peter underline that you sent many emails
9:48and requests of all kinds to try to keep her with you.
9:52JP: Yes, I went to look for you and you weren't there.
9:56S: But I gave you my availability but unfortunately, on this specific point,
10:01over a period of one week, they could not converge….
10:04JP: A week? One week ?
10:07S: Yes. One week.
10:08JP: Weeks!
10:09S: Yes, on a specific point that was urgent, it was a week.
10:12JP: In any case, that's not my recollection of things, I had the impression that
10:17you no longer had availability for me, and for my project,
10:21and that you almost gave me the green light to "manage yourself." , go ahead,
10:26I'm busy in Toulouse, I'm overwhelmed, and no, no more time for you John-Peter » S:
10:31no Olivier: For you John-Peter, it's not so much a question of agenda but you
10:35experienced it more as a desire on the part of Stéphanette to no longer
10:40work, to no longer (JP: a disinterestedness…) get involved with you..a disinterestedness…
10:43JP: Yes. O: …in relation to your joint work.
10:46JP: Yes, I experienced it like that.
10:49S: But you know very well, John-Peter, what the management has put me on, you know very well that I
10:54am also... I have a huge workload in Toulouse and I think that you could also
10:59put yourself on a little in my place and understand that unfortunately sometimes I cannot fit
11:05into your availability, I cannot be at your service at the moment and at that moment,
11:09there are times that is not possible, and it is not with joy of heart. That's why I
11:13answered you very precisely about the slots, sometimes I gave you very short slots but
11:19telling you even if it was half an hour, that as soon as I had half an hour free, I told you.
11:22I told you that half hour possibly… I am available for you. But more than that,
11:30we have the same management, and you know very well what responsibilities fall on me. I don't
11:35understand, you are accusing me of my intentions as if I had abandoned you, you are the
11:38victim and I am an executioner. Really, that's what I don't understand, and that's why
11:42I went to find a mediator and spoke with our manager, it's because
11:47I see clearly that you're positioning yourself as a victim and you don't hear me.
11:51O: Stéphanette, you emphasize that it is not with joy that you were not able to
11:55make yourself available, and that it is mainly because of the heavy workload associated with your
12:01new project in Toulouse, and that it hurts you, and that it bothers you to be considered
12:06the executioner in this affair when for you the motives are external to yourself.
12:12S: Yes. (time of silence) S: I would like us to free up more time to be on these projects
12:21but I'm all alone on the Toulouse project, I... I don't have 4 arms,
12:27and at some point … I can not do any more.
12:31O: You would like to have time to be on the project with John-Peter…
12:35S: Oh well yes! O: …or you wish you had.
12:36JP: Is that true? S: But yes, obviously. Obviously. I hold on
12:43to the charge I have as best I can, and that's also what you need to hear.
12:46JP: I haven't felt any of that since you left.
12:48S: It's because I...
12:51JP: I'm skeptical, I hear that but that's not what your gestures, your words,
12:57your lack of gestures and words indicated. Since you left, really not.
12:58S: Well listen… come see what I’m doing in Toulouse and you’ll see. Come,
13:09you too, you can come too. Paris, you have the impression that you are the center of the world
13:14and that it is the province which must move to Paris. It's not possible for us. Paris
13:20Toulouse it takes me 6 hours to go from my home to the Paris office, 6 hours. I am asked to hold meetings
13:27during the day, I get up at 4:30 a.m. to take the train at 6. You have to
13:34understand that it’s difficult for me too. And there is an excess of fatigue and tension,
13:40I try to hold on and at a given moment I can't be everywhere.
13:46O: Stéphanette, you would like John-Peter to understand more that
13:49it is difficult for you and that this distance, the transport difficulties to go to Paris,
13:55to go back and forth are real constraints.
13:57S: Yeah. JP: But Stéphanie, Stéphanette, from there to going directly to the manager, complaining about something
14:09that in time we would have resolved in an instant...If there was a problem,
14:15maybe it wasn't on the place of work, it was while having a drink
14:18afterwards... We sorted it out as we went along but we didn't leave it...
14:23S: Well listen... Yes?
14:24JP: …rot!
14:26O: What you consider John-Peter is that the situation has “rotten” and that… that’s what’s
14:35really unacceptable, difficult to accept, is that she went to see the manager behind your back .
14:40JP: But yes, listen… I come from the Montreal office,
14:48I have to learn my skills in Paris. And you know that it's hard, Paris, that there is competition,
14:56that there is competition in the Paris office. With this email, it's a
15:01black mark in my file. That's what you don't measure in your frustration at not being cited
15:06in a report, that's how much... No, I think you've made a storm in a glass of water,
15:11and with important consequences for me and my advancement in the firm, in the cabinet.
15:17S: Ah well there you go, you only think about yourself. Once again.
15:21JP: (stutters) I can't see how you would say something like that. This is my name…
15:29your name is good; my name is less good since this. Listen, the email,
15:39George... It's remonstrating with me, this shouldn't happen anymore,
15:46these questions: and gnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagnagn) (taps on the table)
15:49O: John-Peter…
15:50JP: It wasn't… It wasn't fun to read that email. It really wasn't fun.
15:57O: You insist John-Peter on the impact that this email can have for your image,
16:03you who have this challenge of integrating into the Paris office, and that...
16:07JP: It was going well, it was going well.
16:09O: …this email with all these reprimands that
16:11are in it are a black mark in your file…
16:14JP: Correct.
16:14Olivier: …and risk slowing down….
16:15JP: Yes O: …your advancement
16:16JP: That’s it. That's what I couldn't digest, Stéphanette.
16:18S: George is not stupid, he deals with problem by problem and sees clearly that it is just on
16:26this point that we needed him to clarify, and that we need a mediator
16:31today. It's not going to spread over your entire career and life...
16:35JP: But why didn't you clear it up with me!!
16:38S: But because you're not available either,
16:40I'm the one who has to go to Paris every time. It's me who has to
16:44go... "Come on, let's go have a drink in Paris to talk".. I can't!
16:48JP: And Skype? Skype doesn't exist? S: No Skype we never…
16:50JP: 15 years ago yes but today there is Skype
16:52S: Yes today there is Skype but we never… We would have done a Skype you m would have
16:57said “oh well uh before we resolved problems face to face. » I no
17:02longer know how to deal with you, I no longer know what is needed, I no longer know
17:04how to communicate. I don't know anymore, I no longer have any bearings.
17:09O: Stéphanette, you are a little lost,
17:10you no longer have any guidelines on how to communicate with John-Peter…
17:14S: Yeah.
17:14O: ...the way of asking, the way of establishing communication with him...
17:18JP: In any case go directly to the manager, without talking to me in advance, without giving me the
17:28chance... To explain to you the circumstances of this report, which was printed at night...
17:36outside of working hours because there was an emergency to get this report out...
17:41Maybe it wasn't so intentional as you think, that your name does not appear on the
17:48report... There were emergency circumstances, it's you who attributes intentions to me. It's true
18:00that I felt your absence, and I spoke about it, but there is also this context of urgency.
18:06O: John-Peter, you insist on the fact that you had no negative intention
18:10or intention to harm by excluding Stéphanette from the report… And…
18:15JP: I did not exclude her! I didn't exclude her, but I was thinking more about Stéphanette.
18:21So, in a hurry, in the big bang and then the report came out, came out at the appointed time
18:30, and then I was able to present it, it went through…But that piece fell out.
18:37So it wasn't by exclusion, it was by… Well you're no longer there, so you're no
18:43longer there, you understand? It's not me who excluded, on the contrary, I would like
18:49you to come back from Toulouse so that we can work together. We were a good team together.
18:54S: Well yeah, but that’s if you hadn’t explained it to me before now. For me,
18:58this absence on this... On the printing of this report, it was a gesture that you made knowingly
19:06to exclude me. And now, what you just told me, I've never heard it before.
19:10JP: It’s the truth, it’s the truth. S: I'm happy to hear it...
19:14JP: I'm overwhelmed, overwhelmed, there wasn't just this report, there was the other
19:18report a few days before, another report a few days later
19:27. So bing bing bing, then pffff… I was just overwhelmed by events, overwhelmed.
19:32O: John-Peter, you recall that you were overwhelmed by events in a period of
19:33heavy workload with several reports to complete,
19:36and indeed the fact of omitting the name was not intentional at all.
19:40S: Well I can hear that. I can hear it because it's also what I experience on my
19:46side, and that's really something, if you tell me, I can hear it. If
19:51you don't tell me, well we know very well that at the level of fatigue we are at,
19:55everything is subject to interpretation. No matter how hard we try to hold on to the rope,
20:00it stings emotionally. And that if I hear it, well it does me good to hear it.
20:06O: Stéphanette, you say that you can hear and understand what
20:09John-Peter says about this forgetting because you experience
20:13the same thing yourself and it makes you feel good, you are happy with that.
20:16S: For me it changes things, a lot.
20:19JP: In any case, you... You say things that may make sense to me now,
20:26hmm, but at the time of these events, it didn't make sense. So today,
20:35it’s like… I feel like I’ve found you again, Stéphanette. I'm touched.
20:42S: Well me too.
20:43JP: I’m touched.
20:45O: John-Peter, you are touched because you have the impression
20:48of finding the Stéphanette that you knew.
20:50JP: That’s true. S: And me too, and what I mean is that... the light is completely
21:00different and in view of that, I really apologize for this gesture that I made of sending
21:05an email to our administrator. It's the same thing... it's all of a sudden,
21:11I don't know what to do, I'm lost, it's prickling my nerves, I... And.... And I apologize, I
21:19really do, and I understand now, and thank you. It's not the same, it changes.
21:25JP (tears in his eyes): Of course,
21:26I accept your apology, and I was stupid with you in the cafeteria.
21:32S: And I was stupid too. (They laugh)
21:32JP: I'm not proud of myself.
21:34S: (joking) Now, I'd like us to fight over who's the stupidest,
21:39because... I don't know, that's it. It feels good. It feels good.
21:47JP: And I think that what we need to do is prevent these things from happening again because
21:54you are still in Toulouse, it's true it was supposed to be temporary, maybe it will be
21:58permanent, but in any case it is always my wish that you can come back with me to Paris.
22:04O: John-Peter, you insist on the fact that it is your wish, your desire,
22:07that Stéphanette comes back to work with you; and at the same time that you would like to find
22:11ways to prevent this from happening again, this type of situation.
22:16JP&S: Yes. JP: It’s painful. It disturbed me, it disturbed me… I took it too much to heart.
22:25O: You were troubled, disturbed, you take that to heart…
22:32S: I think that in light of what we have experienced, precisely, we are not going to say that we are going to make
22:41perfect things because it's not true we will never do perfect things; but on the other hand
22:45it is a good lesson. It's a good lesson to say that, even, ok, that the 5 minutes we have, it
22:53can be to communicate, or it can be to make a call...or it can be so that we communicate
23:01and that we don't Don't go up in towers like that. Because it hurts and it's energy…..
23:13JP: Yes it sucks energy, it's exhausting. This story exhausted me
23:15. And you talk about the telephone, but I'm really a Skype lover and
23:21then... In Montreal we used it often, so maybe it's less customary for you...
23:29S: (laughs) I'll do a effort!
23:31JP: But because we don't just have the voice, we have the person in front and then
23:41for me it's more complete. Especially when there are delicate questions to deal with,
23:45like the one we had. It seems to me that seeing the person and not just hearing them
23:53can be more helpful in gradually clarifying these situations which
24:00may be unclear or ambiguous. And to clarify as we go. I would like
24:09to suggest that we can meet weekly, on Skype as long as we have not completed
24:17the cycle of projects that we have started together, or as long as you are not back at Paris, I
24:24don't know what you think, Stéphanette, of this proposal... It doesn't have to be at a
24:31fixed time, on a fixed day, but we don't let a week go by without having at least 5-10
24:37minutes, as you say, on Skype. Do you think you can find time in your schedule for this?
24:49S: Yes, I think I can find time to rediscover this subtlety that we had together,
24:59and which cannot exist at a distance without seeing each other. So indeed, I will make an
25:05effort on Skype (laughs) even if it's not what I like and... What I also wanted to say
25:15is that... I am aware of... In fact, the 5 minutes I will have them, and above all
25:28this conversation has given me the energy to fit this into the 5 minutes that I have. Before,
25:35even if I had 5 minutes, I didn't want to call to confront me,
25:39and to lift things that were too heavy because I already have enough things that are too heavy.
25:44O: Stéphanette, you are ready to make this effort to go on Skype,
25:50and above all to use the 5 minutes that you may have here and there
25:55in your calendar for this communication with John-Peter,
26:00to reestablish this communication and rediscover the subtlety of your relationship and your exchanges.
26:06S: Yes. JP: Yes, it’s true that with email we lose nuance. It's... How many
26:16arguments based on emails that we perhaps sent too quickly,
26:22without weighing the words... Email is a trap. We think we're communicating,
26:31and sometimes it's bad communication that we generate with that. It's... So, is Skype okay with you?
26:38S: Mmh mmh.
26:41JP: That reassures me. That reassures me, Stéphanette. Thank you very much.
26:45S: Thank you for accepting and... Sorry for this email,
26:55I will be taught that sending emails like that too quickly, just to deal with the problem... In
27:01fact that's what I did. Treat the problem. It was on my list, I dealt with the problem.
27:06JP: And if you could, without breaking the confidentiality of what happened,
27:12what was exchanged here... If you could have a moment to come back with George,
27:16to say that it was really...contextual, a context difficult, that... that finally
27:26we found a certain good understanding. It would help me, I think,
27:31in terms of my reputation at the firm. I'm not forcing you to do it but it would be...
27:40S: No, no. JP: But if you get a chance to do that, I would really appreciate it.
27:43S: He’s coming to Toulouse next week…. I'll be able to talk to him...about that.
27:54JP: So you are not closed to this idea. Perhaps, just to restore...
27:58O: You will be able to take the opportunity Stéphanette,
28:01of your boss's visit to Toulouse to... Make comments, at JP's request, on
28:11this approach, and how the situation has evolved.
28:14S: Yes. It's even just taking my responsibilities in this matter,
28:19it's not... It's also important for me to take back my responsibilities in this matter,
28:24and indeed… The responsibility of this email that I sent to you.
28:31JP: And then I'm sorry for the altercation in the cafeteria,
28:36I wasn't at my best and I'm not proud of myself... please accept my apologies.
28:41S: (laughs) I accept.
28:41JP: And then I will be very careful in the future,
28:49regarding recognizing your work, whether in Paris, Toulouse or Montreal
28:54(laughing). If you're going to work on a file, your name will be on it with mine.
29:02O: John-Peter, you repeat your intention to be careful to include
29:06Stéphanette's name on any work to which she has contributed with you. Stéphanette, John-Peter,
29:14we have 3 to 4 minutes left compared to the time we had
29:17set. How do you want to use this time from now on?
29:22Jp: For me, it’s complete.
29:24O: Is it complete? S: I suggest we go and have coffee together.
29:29JP: Well, if we have three minutes to drink coffee… (laughs)
29:31S and O laugh O: You invite me then! Thank you. Thank you.
29:43S: Thank you very much. Okay, let's go to a café.
29:44JP: Thank you. S: Thank you.