Full transcript
0:00Seduction is an high form of power
0:04because you make people feel pleasure.
0:08You make them feel excited or interested
0:11in you and then their their resistance
0:14to your ideas slowly lowers and you have
0:16the ability to influence them and to
0:18move them in the direction that you
0:20want. If you yell at them like how we
0:22were talking about your child and you
0:23tell them do this, do that, they they
0:25resent it and for good reason. But if
0:27you're subtler, if you're more seductive
0:30in your approach, if you're more
0:32indirect,
0:33people will do what you want or or go in
0:36your direction without ever even
0:37realizing it. So, it was a sub theme in
0:39the 48 laws of power. And so, I was sort
0:42of interested in the psychology of that
0:44and why some people are good at it and
0:45some people are awkward about it. So,
0:47when I finished the 48 laws of power, I
0:50thought this would be a natural segue,
0:53the next book. What are the qualities of
0:57a great seducer?
1:01Well, I like to distinguish between cold
1:03seducers and warm seducers. A cold
1:06seducer is something you don't want to
1:07be. That's the typical image that we
1:10might have of a male seducer, but even
1:12of a female seducer like the great
1:14cortisans where they're just after money
1:16or the men are just after sex. That's
1:19not my ideal. My ideal
1:22is kind of a back and forth quality
1:26where it's not domination. It's sort of
1:29like a game that you're playing. It's
1:30like a mating game. It's like a
1:32courtship ritual where both part people
1:34are kind of seducing each other. And so
1:37what makes for a great seducer is very
1:40simple. I can summarize it very simply.
1:42You are outerdirected.
1:45So when you meet somebody for the first
1:48time or you're on a date or whatever it
1:50is, you're not having that internal
1:53monologue going, "Does she like me or
1:56does he like me? Am I dressed well? Am I
1:58saying stupid things? What can I do to
2:01impress them?" No, you turn it off and
2:03you're outerdirected and you're
2:05listening to them and you're entering
2:07their spirit and you're hearing them say
2:09things that that give you idea of what
2:13they're missing in life, of what they
2:14want, of what their needs are, of what
2:17makes them an individual. You're
2:19absorbing it. You're entering into their
2:21spirit and then you can reflect it back
2:23to them. You can give them gifts. You
2:25can take them to places that show that
2:28you're attentive to them. Because if you
2:30look at how we are in our day-to-day
2:32life,
2:34normally people never pay us attention.
2:37They're always so self-absorbed. They're
2:39never thinking about us. You the I many
2:42the times where you get this sense that
2:44people are actually interested in who
2:46you are as an individual is pretty rare.
2:49If you give that feeling to someone,
2:51it's incredibly powerful because we all
2:53want to be validated. We all want to be
2:55recognized.
2:56So the seducer is not someone who's all
3:00worried about him him or herself and
3:02thinking they're involved in the other
3:04person. They're absorbed like a sponge
3:06inside their psychology inside their
3:08world.
3:10A lot of this is you know very
3:11applicable to romance and dating etc
3:15etc. It feels for whatever reason I you
3:17know not necessarily something I've read
3:19much about in your work but it feels
3:20like dating and romance and
3:23relationships have become much more
3:26complicated in the modern world that
3:28it's it's become much more difficult to
3:30seduce somebody. Um what is the what are
3:34the attributes of someone then that is
3:36not good at seducing?
3:38Anti-seducer
3:40has many qualities. I have a whole
3:41chapter on the anti-seducer. I try and
3:43define it. Uh there there are several of
3:46them. I can't I don't have them all
3:47memorized. But one quality that's very
3:50anti-seductive is preaching and
3:52moralizing
3:54is like telling people, "Oh, that's
3:57wrong what you just said or your
3:59politics are ugly or you're not a really
4:01you're not really good at this or
4:02something or other." Having a moral
4:04superiority, a sense of sanctimonious
4:07sanctimony in a realm which should be
4:10about pleasure, where should be that
4:11kind of equality, that kind of dynamic
4:14where you're asserting your moral
4:16superiority is deeply, deeply
4:19anti-seductive. The element of preaching
4:21to people, not being generous,
4:24and I mean not just with money, money is
4:27important, but not being generous with
4:30your spirit, right? You want to be open.
4:33You want to give as much as you can to
4:35the other person of yourself, of your
4:38time, of your money, of your energy,
4:41etc. So being all kind of crimped and I
4:44don't want to give, I don't want to
4:46spend money. I want to take you to the
4:48cheap place to eat. I don't want to give
4:50you much time is very, very
4:52anti-seductive. When you were talking a
4:55second ago about the person who goes on
4:57the date and they're thinking about
4:58themselves and what they, you know, what
5:01their hair looks like or whatever else,
5:03that spoke to an insecure person.
5:07Is insecurity a seductive quality or is
5:10it a anti-seductive quality? It is
5:14anti-seductive. Now, there is a part of
5:17weakness that is seductive. So I would
5:20say vulnerability is seductive but
5:23insecurity is anti- seductive and
5:25there's a big difference.
5:26>> Why does vulnerability draw people to
5:28you?
5:29>> Because the sense so if I can define
5:33seduction in in in in simple terms
5:37um most of the time we are closed to the
5:41influence of other people particularly
5:43now we have these walls up because life
5:46is harsh. People are coming at us with
5:49their advertisements, with their pleas,
5:50with they're wanting money, with this,
5:52that, and the other. And we've all
5:53learned to be very defensive, right? And
5:56seduction is an openness is the opposite
5:59of that. And you felt it when you were a
6:02child towards your parents. You felt
6:03very vulnerable and open. And and there
6:06was an element of your parents and how
6:08they treated you that was very much like
6:10a seduction, right? So seduction is
6:13about being open to the other person to
6:15the extent where you can even fall in
6:17love. you can fall under their spell.
6:19And the sense of letting go of your ego,
6:22letting go of your defensiveness and
6:24letting other another person enter your
6:26world is being seduced. It requires
6:30vulnerability. If you meet the typical
6:34um scenario is of a man who's not
6:38vulnerable at all. He's so powerful and
6:40in control and everything has no
6:42vulnerabilities. It's frightening, you
6:45know, for a woman. It could be very
6:48frightening like this. He's he's so
6:51strong, he's so invulnerable that
6:53there's something wrong about it. You
6:54know, maybe he's a serial killer. Maybe
6:56he's got skeletons in his closet.
6:58Something isn't right about that. What
7:01what seduces you about a puppy, about a
7:04child, about an animal is their
7:06vulnerability. It makes you want to hug
7:08them. It makes you want to help them,
7:10right? the sense which if you came upon
7:12a a tiger that's there and they don't
7:15need that well that's not seductive I
7:17mean on your screen it is but if they're
7:19there in your living room that's not
7:21seductive but that puppy is right
7:24vulnerability the sense that somebody
7:27needs protection or help brings out
7:30qualities in us that we don't normally
7:32have that I think allow for seduction so
7:36that is being vulnerable that is
7:39I can be influenced by that other
7:41person. I am open to the to their
7:45spirit, right? That's being vulnerable.
7:48The word vulnerable, I hate to sound
7:50like a professor here, so excuse me, and
7:52seduction comes from the ro the root of
7:55it means a wound, vulner
8:07means I'm so self-absorbed. I'm so
8:10worried about myself that I can't get
8:13out of it. And we've all had that
8:15experience when you meet somebody and
8:18they and you can sense you can smell
8:20their insecurity in them. I'm not
8:22judging them because we all have
8:23insecurities.
8:24It makes you feel insecure. It makes you
8:27feel a little bit awkward. Whereas if
8:29you meet someone who's not like that,
8:31who's confident, etc., it brings out
8:33that quality in you. So if you're on a
8:35date and there's someone who's you smell
8:38that kind of insecurity, it makes you
8:40awkward and insecure. It creates a kind
8:42of a problem. So that would be the
8:43difference between the two.
8:46There's going to be a lot of people
8:47listening to this that are single
8:50and ready to mingle.
8:52Um what advice would you give them in
8:55terms of being great at dating? You've
8:57talked about the importance of
8:58vulnerability there and how that kind of
9:00forms connection between humans in a
9:02very innate way. What else is great
9:04dating advice for this for the single
9:06people out there?
9:07>> Well,
9:08the thing is, okay, there's several
9:11things. So, first of all, we live in a a
9:14culture where people think you don't you
9:17shouldn't have to put effort into
9:18something like love and romance. You
9:20should just be who you are, man. I don't
9:23have to put on a role. I don't have to
9:24play a game. That's manipulative. Blah
9:26blah blah blah. No, I'm sorry.
9:30Love and romance is something that is
9:32almost biological. If you look at
9:35animals and mating rituals, they're
9:36incredibly elaborate. Seduction is a
9:39mating ritual. And so, the worst thing
9:42you can feel is that this person isn't
9:46putting any effort into something. Let's
9:48just say it's it's from the woman's
9:51point of view. This man, he just shows
9:53up wearing jeans and his usual sloppy
9:56outfit. He doesn't comb his hair, etc.,
9:59etc., etc. He takes me to the pub for
10:02dinner on our first date.
10:04You know, he he he's not thinking about
10:06me. He's not willing to put any effort
10:08into it if he's not willing to put any
10:10effort into it. What's it going to be
10:13like 3 months down the line when he
10:15completely takes me for granted, which
10:17is what happens in a relationship? Am I
10:19not important enough? Right? Whereas the
10:23ability to have a little bit of effort
10:25to think of it as kind of theater and
10:27drama and that there's nothing evil
10:29about that. So I'm going to dress
10:32nicely. I'm going to it doesn't have to
10:34be fancy, just that I'm going to, you
10:37know, I'm going to put some effort into
10:38how I look. I'm going to take her to a
10:41place that isn't is you know, I'm not
10:44talking about candle lights and roses
10:46and that kind of crap. It doesn't You
10:48can be creative. It can be somewhere
10:50that that's scuzzy, that's on the wrong
10:52side of town, but it's different and
10:54it's appealing to and you put some
10:55thought into it. There's a reason you're
10:57taking her there, right? I have a friend
11:01who went on a date and she came back
11:04from the date and was complaining
11:06because the person that she date went on
11:09that first date with was using a took
11:12her to a spot where he had an available
11:14valid discount code like 2 to1
11:18>> and and
11:19>> talk about anti- seduction. There you
11:20go.
11:21>> Why is that anti- seductive? In that
11:24case, one might say that male is being,
11:27you know, economically savvy,
11:29financially savvy. They, you know, if
11:32you're not able to let go of your of
11:35your kind of tightness when it comes to
11:38a woman, then something's wrong with
11:40you, man. Just let go. Spend some extra
11:42money. Spend the extra 10 quid that you
11:44might need to spend on taking her to
11:46someplace different. But it signals a
11:49kind of cheapness. And it's not about
11:51money. It's about a cheapness in your
11:53spirit, right? She's not worth, you
11:57know, letting go. Okay, maybe you don't
12:00have that much, but my god, you you have
12:02enough. It's not going to like make if
12:04you're that poor, then then, you know,
12:06okay, maybe. But probably not. You can
12:08afford it. Show that you that that it it
12:11means something to you.
12:14Seduction is a language. It's not a
12:16language of words. It's a language of
12:19gestures that we're paying attention to.
12:22We're paying attention to people's body
12:23language. We're paying attention to
12:26their actions, to the things that they
12:27never say. So when you signal that
12:33discounts are so important to you that
12:35even on the first date you have to have
12:36a discount, you're signaling that it's
12:39not there's something tight about you in
12:41your nature and it's not very pleasant.
12:43I from doing this podcast and speaking
12:46about topics like love and sex and
12:48dating and you know dating apps even one
12:50of the um comments I saw quite
12:54frequently was from young men who are
12:58struggling to seduce a woman
13:02>> or or vice versa. um specifically young
13:05men that you know and then I read some
13:07stats. I think Scott Galloway came on
13:09the podcast and talked about how
13:11going to butcher these numbers but a
13:13staggering amount of men haven't had sex
13:15in the young men haven't had sex in the
13:16last 12 months. Um and then when I
13:20looked at the comment section
13:21specifically on YouTube, I saw I kind of
13:23saw that energy reflected where it
13:25looked like young men in particular were
13:27struggling to seduce um a mate, a
13:31partner in the modern world.
13:33Is is that real in your view? Is there
13:36is there something that has changed in
13:38society? Has that always been the case?
13:41Um, is there anything we can do if we're
13:43we're a young man that's struggling in
13:44the modern world because of the internet
13:45and computers and this and dating apps
13:47and [sighs]
13:49>> Well, a lot of it is, I'm afraid to say,
13:51is internet porn where you get the idea
13:55that, you know, sex is something that
13:57should be very easy and quick and that
13:59women should have look have that kind of
14:02body and physique etc etc and that
14:05becomes your norm etc. That can be that
14:08can be very damaging. But the idea that
14:11things must come easy and quick is is
14:13very prevalent. And to win over someone
14:18like a say you're a man and it's a woman
14:20who might be reluctant to have sex for
14:22good reason or reluctant to have a
14:24relationship
14:26requires some effort. It requires some
14:29thinking. You can't just hack your way.
14:31You can't just swipe and get it. You can
14:33you can have your internet sex, but
14:35you're not going to get that in real
14:36life. It doesn't work that way. It takes
14:39time. It takes patience, you know, and
14:42you're going to have to work and you're
14:43going to be rejected. Being with people
14:46is a skill. Being a social animal,
14:49although there's a part that comes
14:51naturally, if you spend all of your time
14:53here, you're losing that skill of how to
14:56respond to people's body language. You
14:58know, half of the thing is you're
15:00sitting in a bar opposite, let's say
15:03it's a woman, and how she crosses her
15:06legs, how she sips her drink, how she
15:10looks at you, how she touches her hair,
15:12she's signaling things. It's a language.
15:15It's a beautiful language, right? You
15:18have to learn it. And you're not going
15:19to learn it here because you can't. You
15:21have to be in person. It has to be
15:23skin-to-skin. You have to get a feel for
15:25what other people are thinking and
15:27feeling. And we're actually really
15:29really good at that. Humans have that's
15:31what makes us human. It's called mirror
15:34neurons. I can sense what's going on in
15:36your mind. I can read your body
15:38language.
15:40You have to get out in the world and you
15:41have to be put yourself physically out
15:43there and try and try and try and have
15:46rejection. And I know it sounds awful,
15:49but it is a skill in a way where you're
15:52learning how to like understand and deal
15:55with people and and and and understand
15:58their what they're who they are and get
15:59inside their spirit. It takes time and
16:02effort and patience. So for young men,
16:05you have to realize that, right? You if
16:08you if you think everything has to be
16:10easy and quick, it's never going to work
16:11for you. In the and I talk about the
16:14actor, the Hollywood actor Errol Flynn,
16:17who was perhaps
16:20numerically the greatest sedu male
16:22seducer ever because estimated that he
16:24had seduced close to 3,000 women and he
16:28died when he was 50. And if I I did the
16:30math one day, what how can that possibly
16:33be? Um, and I I tried to research what
16:37was his secret and it was hard to find
16:39out. Finally, I found a book written by
16:41a woman whom he had seduced, another
16:43actress. And she said he was so relaxed
16:48and so comfortable. It was like being it
16:50was like an animal type thing. And then
16:52when I would sit with him, it was almost
16:54as if I had drunk two martinis just
16:57sitting next to him. His comfort and his
17:00security and his confidence, his relaxed
17:02attitude, it just made me drunk. So
17:06feeling relaxed, feeling confident and
17:09not defensive and comfortable with
17:11yourself is a very powerful seductive
17:15quality. I mean there are many of them
17:16but that's one that I would point out.
17:18Have you ever figured out what builds
17:20confidence? You you earlier on you were
17:22talking about how children need to
17:24experience things firsthand. You can't
17:26just tell them. You can't just tell
17:28someone, for example, to be confident.
17:29Preaching doesn't seem to work. What
17:31what is it in your view that that does
17:34build that true or you also can't fake
17:36confidence?
17:37>> No.
17:38>> I remember I say we talked about
17:39rejection a second ago. I was rejected
17:41by pretty much every girl that I was
17:44pursuing between the ages of of 16 and
17:48I'd say 22.
17:49>> Really?
17:50>> Yeah. Like and I do you know what it
17:52was? I I was faking confidence. It all
17:55changed when I was actually had a sense
17:57of security in myself. But in the period
17:59where I was like faking confidence, I
18:01was pretending I was confident. Um it
18:04was like they could they just could read
18:06past it. That's almost how I look back
18:08on the situation. So I came to learn
18:10that you can't fake confidence. You
18:11can't pretend to be it because there's
18:13so many sort of micro expressions that
18:16>> that you that look that end up reading
18:18more like insecurity than confidence. Um
18:21but what is real confidence and how does
18:22one build it in your view?
18:23>> Well, you've kind of answered your own
18:25question there in a way. So, um, you
18:28know, conf fake confidence is like
18:30bravado, right? And you're you're
18:32putting on an act and particularly women
18:36who've had to deal with this for, you
18:38know, millennia, they can smell it, they
18:40can sense it. They don't have to it
18:42doesn't have it's not in your words,
18:43it's the body language, etc., etc. Real
18:47confidence comes from actual um actions,
18:51from your actual things you've
18:52accomplished, right? So, you know, when
18:56you're 22, 21, it's hard to have that
18:58confidence because what is it based on?
19:01You know, maybe it's based, okay, maybe
19:04you're you're really good-looking if you
19:06happen to have that good fortune and you
19:08can feel confident about that and you
19:10don't have to try so hard. All right,
19:12maybe that might work. Or maybe you're
19:14really good at sports. Or maybe you're a
19:17really good dancer or you're a really
19:19great singer. But it's based on
19:21something real. you have a skill. You
19:24have something that separates you. You
19:25have something that you can do that you
19:27can accomplish. Because when you're 21,
19:29it's hard to have those. You know, I
19:31look back on myself when I was that age.
19:33I had nothing. No wonder I got rejected.
19:36You know, um so it comes from what you
19:41do in life. Okay. the the finest sense
19:44of confidence is actually creating
19:47things and having success and meeting
19:50goals and achieving things and having a
19:53record of that, you know, and maybe what
19:55goes with that is having some money, but
19:57it's not necessarily because you don't
19:59have to have a lot of money. And you
20:01don't have to be good-looking to seduce.
20:03That's a myth that I try to explode in
20:06the art of seduction. Some of the
20:07greatest seducers, male and female, were
20:09not good-looking at all. It's about
20:12psychology and it's about how you carry
20:14yourself.
20:15But the confidence comes from actually
20:18what you can do, not how you feel or
20:21what you say. Well, it is how you feel,
20:23but the feeling is based on things that
20:25you actually can do, skills that you
20:27have that separate you, that make you
20:29feel really confident, you know. So,
20:33>> body language.
20:35>> Yeah. I I find it fascinating that, you
20:37know, there's quotes and things that say
20:3980% of our communication is non-verbal,
20:42etc., etc. Um, body language is so
20:44interesting to me because again, I think
20:46that's one of the things that it's just
20:48impossibly hard to fake. I was reading,
20:50you know, a couple of books on there was
20:52a phase when I was, I don't know, 20,
20:54probably just after being rejected all
20:55the time when I was maybe 22 where I
20:57started reading books from pickup
20:58artists and they would obsess
21:01on the topic of body language. And one
21:03of the things they'd say is, and I I was
21:06explaining this to my girlfriend a
21:07couple of weeks ago, that when when a
21:09man is lower confidence and when he's
21:11desperate, he does this thing called
21:12pecking in a nightclub where he'll like
21:14lean in and like shout in your ear. And
21:16when he's higher confidence, he kind of
21:18leans out and he'll he'll wait for you
21:20to lean in. Small things like that,
21:22subtleties like that that in intuitively
21:25we we're reading and understanding and
21:27communicating and etc. But someone that
21:30doesn't have the confidence probably
21:31isn't even aware that they do. So when I
21:33reflect on my rejection phase, I think
21:36gosh, my body language must have been
21:38exuding desperation and low status and
21:41low value, low self-esteem. What's your
21:43thoughts on body language? And well, um,
21:46in my last book, Human Nature, I wrote a
21:48whole chapter on it. I quoted the figure
21:5195%, but who knows what it really is.
21:55>> [clears throat]
21:55>> The thing it is that um we evolved for
21:58hundreds of thousands of years before
22:00language existed, right? And our
22:02earliest ancestors depended on the group
22:05for their survival and getting along and
22:07their powers came from observing other
22:10people and their body language. You
22:12could read it. So it's a skill that's
22:14wired into us, wired into our brains.
22:16It's very unique skill that we humans
22:18have. It's just that you don't learn
22:21that when you're a child. when you're 2
22:23years old, you have it because your life
22:25depends on it.
22:27You you have to see what if your mother
22:29is is loving you or or your father is
22:31kind to you because if not, you know,
22:33you could be abandoned. Your life
22:35depends on it. You're great at reading
22:36that. And children have a are incredibly
22:39adept at picking up body language. So if
22:42someone is fake, if someone's an
22:45impostor, they hate being around
22:47children because children see through
22:48you, you know, like, you know, like
22:50radar, right? because they're so attuned
22:53to it. You had that skill when you were
22:55very young, but you lost it because you
22:57became so oriented with words and you
23:00became so self-absorbed that you're not
23:02paying attention.
23:04But it's extremely important, right? So
23:08the whole body is involved in it. So
23:11you've got to first stop thinking about
23:14people's words so much because the one
23:16thing about words unfortunately is
23:18people can lie. They can say whatever
23:20they want. They can say, "I love your
23:22screenplay. That was fantastic. You were
23:25great in that movie. I thought you were
23:26great, etc., etc." They can say anything
23:28to please, to flatter, to control you.
23:31But body language, man, it doesn't lie.
23:33Right? So, I talk in that book about the
23:36eyes and the fake smile. The fake smile
23:40is something you see every single day,
23:42but you're not paying attention. It's
23:43like, [laughter]
23:46it's kind of tight, right? It's like,
23:49[gasps] yeah, right. But a real smile,
23:52your the whole face gets animated and
23:54there's a little crinkly thing here as
23:57your face as you as it lights up and
23:59your eyes light up. It's it's hard to
24:01even put into words, but it's there. You
24:03can see it. It's real. It's not faked.
24:07Knowing the difference between a fake
24:08and a real smile is really important in
24:10seduction, in business, or whatever to
24:13know if someone is like, "Yeah,
24:14[laughter]
24:15I like that idea." No, they don't
24:17really. They're saying that to please
24:19you. They actually hate your idea. You
24:21master that language. You can start
24:23deciphering all this people are
24:25giving you. The face, you can disguise
24:28it a little bit. Actors know that. But
24:30you know what? You can't fake. It's your
24:33voice.
24:34If you're nervous, not even the finest
24:37actors in the world can fake that. Your
24:40voice betrays so many things about you.
24:43It betrays your weakness. it portrays
24:45your lack of confidence or it portrays
24:47the other quality etc. Right? So pay
24:51really attention to the tone of people's
24:53voices to how fast they talk. People who
24:56talk fast are very nervous. Someone
24:58who's talk I know I'm probably talking a
25:00little too fast here. Sorry. Uh my mind
25:03races so I I do that. Normally I don't
25:05talk so fast but um you know you you
25:09talk slowly. You have a certain tone.
25:11You have a certain intonation that kind
25:13of reveals confidence. Okay. Body
25:16language, posture. You were talking
25:18about pecking, right? When you go and
25:22look at a meeting of people in in a
25:24business meeting, you'll see all the
25:27employees kind of leaning forward,
25:29nervous, and you'll see the boss kind of
25:31leaning back, arms like this. You know,
25:34I'm the powerful one. You come to me.
25:37I'm the leader. I'm the I'm the top dog
25:39or she. It's a woman. I don't need to be
25:42like this. I'm like this. Body language
25:45reveals a lot about leadership
25:47qualities, etc., etc., etc. You know, if
25:51you go, you're at a party
25:54and you come up to someone that you're
25:55meeting for the first time and they're
25:57talking to you and you notice that their
26:00feet are angling away from you, that
26:04means that they're not really, they're
26:05looking for any moment to try and walk
26:07away and escape. they're not really into
26:09you whereas their feet are facing you.
26:12They're engaged. They want to talk to
26:13you. Right? This is a whole art you can
26:16learn. You can sit there and you can
26:18read it. And I talk about I give the
26:20story in laws of human nature of a man
26:22named Milton Ericson, the founder of NLP
26:26and hypnotherapy. Probably one of the
26:28most brilliant psychologists who ever
26:30lived. When Milton Ericson was 19 years
26:32old or so, he had polio. He nearly died.
26:36His entire body was paralyzed. The only
26:39thing he could move, the only muscle he
26:41could move were his eyeballs. Now
26:43imagine that he was a young man with a
26:45very active mind. He can't talk. He
26:48can't do anything. All he can do is move
26:49his eyeballs a little bit. He was so
26:52bored. Can you imagine how bored you'd
26:54be like that? You can't read. You can't
26:55do anything. People would come in to
26:57visit him. All he could do was look at
27:00them and study them. He became the
27:03greatest reader of body language ever in
27:06the history of mankind. People said it
27:08was he was almost had ESP. He could read
27:11everything about who they were just by
27:14look because he ended up recovering. He
27:15became a psychologist because his life
27:18depended on developing this skill. He
27:20was going to just die from sheer boredom
27:22if he didn't learn how to read body
27:24language. He mastered that language much
27:27like somebody could master French. And
27:29it's an incredibly powerful language
27:31that I I I can't emphasize enough.
27:34>> You know, we can go about learning the
27:36language of body language and I'm sure
27:38that will help, but it's such a complex
27:44um like v there's like a thousand things
27:47with my body language at all times like
27:49how I'm speaking, my eyeballs, my where
27:51I'm looking, my posture, my arms, like
27:53am I crossing my arms, am I crossing my
27:54legs, all of these things. So the the
27:57challenge of mastering all of that feels
27:59a little bit overwhelming. Um am I right
28:01in assuming the easiest the easier
28:04challenge to master is in fact just like
28:06my sense of self very well put because
28:10you know if you feel confident if you
28:12feel secure if you're not all inward and
28:16insecure and worried about yourself it
28:18will naturally radiate through your
28:20gestures. Yeah. And you don't have to
28:22sit there and pay attention to your
28:23fingers, your arm, your ears, your eyes.
28:26It's just there. It's natural. So yeah,
28:28that is the solution. So the two game
28:30parts [clears throat] of the game, it's
28:31your own body language. Be aware that
28:34people are judging you for that. Right?
28:36And you can't, as you say, be monitoring
28:39everything or you'll drive yourself
28:40crazy and you'll look very weird, right?
28:43So the best solution is to feel these
28:45certain things that are going to radiate
28:47and to not give the fake smile but when
28:50you're really happy to just show it and
28:53and show your emotion that way. And the
28:56other side which is more is I think
29:00really important is learning other
29:01people's body language and that can come
29:04from study and is much more a logical
29:06thing than than constantly thinking
29:08about everything that you do.
29:12your next book that I have here,
29:15Mastery.
29:16Why did you write a book called Mastery?
29:20Well, to be honest with you, it came uh
29:22the idea for it was in around the year
29:242010, 2009. I was getting a little
29:27worried that people who were reading my
29:29books, particularly young men who were
29:31reading Power and Seduction, they caught
29:32they were thinking that's all I need in
29:34life, man. I just need to be a
29:35manipulator. I just need to play
29:37political games. That's what success is
29:38all about.
29:40And I was worried that, you know, if if
29:43you don't understand how to make
29:45something, what's going to be the future
29:47of mankind? Are bridges just going to
29:49fall down? Are hotels going to collapse?
29:52People don't know how to make things
29:53anymore. We don't know how to use our
29:54hands anymore, right? So being able to
29:59be good with people is extremely
30:00important as a social animal. But
30:02perhaps higher up in the hierarchy is
30:05being able to do things, to be able to
30:07have great skill and to be able to
30:09create something and know how to master
30:12a subject and to, you know, build
30:14something that can last. That's really
30:17important. And I'm feeling like because
30:20young people, this is back in 2010,
30:22imagine now, have this idea that
30:25everything comes quick and easy because
30:27you can click, click, click, and things
30:29come to you. that everything in life
30:30should be that way. That we're we're
30:33becoming alienated from the human brain
30:35and how the human brain operates because
30:37the human brain requires time. If you
30:40know how the human brain operates, we
30:42have what are called neural pathways.
30:44And every time you repeat something, a
30:46neuropathway is created and strengthened
30:49and strengthened and strengthened. It's
30:51why we get addicted to things, but it's
30:53also why we develop skill. So, if I'm
30:57sitting there shooting free throws day
30:58in and day out and day out, my brain is
31:00wiring it. It's learning it. It's
31:02learning that motor skill, that hand
31:04mind thing, and it's getting better and
31:06better and better at it. It takes time.
31:08It takes repetition to build those
31:10pathways. And I explain in mastery that
31:14you reach the proverbial 10,000 hours,
31:17which some people dispute nowadays. So,
31:18it's just a number. It's not it's not a
31:20fact. you ever spent so long learning
31:24something that there's so many pathways.
31:27It's like this amazing
31:30uh inner landscape with all these
31:32connections going on in your brain. And
31:34now you can be creative. Now you can
31:36come up with things that nobody's ever
31:38thought of. You can play chess on a
31:40higher level. You can be pelle on soccer
31:43or Lionel Messi making passes that no
31:45one had ever seen before because you're
31:47not having to think, right? You don't
31:49have to think anymore. Your body just
31:51does does what it wants. Imagine 20,000
31:54hours, which is possibly just people
31:56sometimes attain in certain fields.
31:58You're almost like a genius. You're
32:00almost like superhuman, right?
32:03If you're someone who's so locked into
32:05the internet to getting things
32:07instantly, you can't get past 100 hours,
32:09let alone 10,000, you're never going to
32:11develop skill and you're going to find
32:13life really, really difficult for you.
32:16So I wrote the book because I was
32:18actually deeply worried that we were
32:20losing a part of of how the human brain
32:23operates something elemental part of our
32:26wisdom.
32:28>> The interesting throughine between that
32:30and the subject matter we've discussed
32:32in power and seduction is that by
32:34learning to master something you build
32:36that sense of self-esteem and confidence
32:38that we're looking for um to to be good
32:41at the former topics mentioned. But on
32:44the topic of um mastery, the first
32:46chapter in this book and really the
32:48first question a lot of people ask is
32:49this question about finding your
32:51passion. And I've always had a difficult
32:52relationship with this question because
32:54it sometimes assumes that there's one of
32:56them and that you have to go in search
32:58of it somewhere. In the first chapter of
32:59your book, you talk about discovering
33:01your life task. Um why why is it
33:05important? Is it the same thing? Is is
33:07finding your passion and finding your
33:09life task the same thing?
33:10>> No, I just recorded this yesterday. Uh,
33:12on my own podcast, I went on a rant
33:15about how it's not about passion. It's
33:17not about finding your passion. I
33:19actually don't like that word passion.
33:20It kind of makes me cringe because if
33:23you think about it, passion to succeed
33:26at anything requires time and effort and
33:29boredom and tedium. So, let's just say a
33:32simple example. You're learning to play
33:34the piano. When you first sit down at
33:36the piano, you have to play these really
33:38incipid tunes. It's so boring. you have
33:41to learn, you know, um I forget what
33:43they call it. Um finger exercises and
33:45scales on any instrument, you have to
33:47learn scales, etc. It's tedious, man. If
33:51you think it's got to be passion, forget
33:54it. You're never going to get far. The
33:56thrill comes after a year of playing the
33:58piano and you get better at it and
34:01better and better and now it starts
34:02coming fun. Then 10 years it's more fun.
34:05Then 20 years, it's fantastic. You know,
34:08I've got my own life to lead. Ignoring
34:11petty things is the ultimate form of
34:13power. Assume for looseless. I know that
34:16law number that's 48. I use all the
34:19time. But I can't emphasize enough
34:21because I've received so many emails
34:23from people who said I'm not an evil
34:26person. I'm not a bad person. But man,
34:28your book saved me from so many bad
34:31situations, from outshining the master,
34:34from talking too much, from putting too
34:36much trust in friends. Thank you,
34:38Robert. So, you have to learn the art of
34:41what to ignore and what not to pay
34:43attention to and understand that you're
34:45wired to see those kind of red alert
34:48buttons on Facebook or on Next Door,
34:51wherever they are. And it it's just it's
34:54it's negative. It's like a candy rush
34:56and you have to avoid it. People think
34:59you don't you shouldn't have to put
35:00effort into something like love and
35:02romance. You should just be who you are,
35:04man. I don't have to put on a role. I
35:06don't have to play a game. that's
35:08manipulative, blah blah blah blah. No,
35:10I'm sorry.
35:12Love and romance is something that is
35:15almost biological.
35:17If you look at animals and mating
35:19rituals, they're incredibly elaborate.
35:21Seduction is a mating ritual. And so,
35:24the worst thing you can feel is that
35:27this person isn't putting any effort
35:29into something. Let's just say it's it's
35:33uh it's from the woman's point of view.
35:34man. He just shows up wearing jeans and
35:37his usual sloppy outfit. He doesn't comb
35:40his hair, etc., etc., etc. He takes me
35:44to the pub for dinner on our first date.
35:47You know, he he he's not thinking about
35:49me. He's not willing to put any effort
35:51into it. If he's not willing to put any
35:53effort into it, what's it going to be
35:55like 3 months down the line when he
35:58completely takes me for granted, which
35:59is what happens in a relationship? Am I
36:02not important enough? Right? Whereas the
36:06ability to have a little bit of effort
36:08to think of it as kind of theater and
36:10drama and that there's nothing evil
36:12about that. So, I'm going to dress
36:15nicely. I'm going to It doesn't have to
36:17be fancy, just that I'm going to, you
36:19know, I'm going to put some effort into
36:21how I look. I'm going to take her to a
36:24place that isn't is you know, I'm not
36:27talking about candle lights and roses
36:29and that kind of crap. It doesn't have
36:31you can be creative. It can be somewhere
36:33that that's scuzzy, that's on the wrong
36:35side of town, but it's different and
36:37it's appealing to and you put some
36:38thought into it. There's a reason you're
36:40taking her there, right? I have a friend
36:43who went on a date and she came back
36:46from the date and was complaining
36:49because the person that she date went on
36:52that first date with
36:53>> was using a took her to a spot where he
36:56had an available valid discount code
36:59like two to one.
37:01>> And and
37:01>> talk about anti-seduction. There you go.
37:04>> Why is that anti-seductive? In that
37:06case, one might say that male is being,
37:10you know, economically savvy,
37:12financially savvy. They, you know, if
37:15you're not able to let go of your of
37:17your kind of [clears throat] tightness
37:20when it comes to a woman, then
37:22something's wrong with you, man. Just
37:23let go. Spend some extra money. Spend
37:26the extra 10 quid that you might need to
37:28spend on taking her to someplace
37:30different. But it signals a kind of
37:32cheapness. And it's not about money.
37:34It's about a cheapness in your spirit,
37:37right? She's not worth, you know,
37:40letting go. Okay, maybe you don't have
37:43that much, but my god, you have enough.
37:45It's not going to like make if you're
37:47that poor, then then, you know, okay,
37:49maybe, but probably not. You can afford
37:52it. Show that you that that it it means
37:54something to you.
37:57Seduction is a language. It's not a
37:59language of words. It's a language of
38:01gestures that we're paying attention to.
38:04We're paying attention to people's body
38:06language. We're paying attention to
38:08their actions, to the things that they
38:10never say. So when you signal that
38:16discounts are so important to you that
38:17even on the first date you have to have
38:19a discount, you're signaling that it's
38:22not there's something tight about you in
38:24your nature and it's not very pleasant.
38:26I from doing this podcast and speaking
38:28about topics like love and sex and
38:30dating and you know dating apps even one
38:33of the um comments I saw quite
38:36frequently was from young men who are
38:40struggling to seduce a woman
38:44>> or or vice versa. um specifically young
38:48men that you know and then I read some
38:50stats. I think Scott Galloway came on
38:51the podcast and talked about how
38:54going to butcher these numbers but a
38:56staggering amount of men haven't had sex
38:58in the young men haven't had sex in the
38:59last 12 months. Um, and then I when I
39:02looked at the comments section
39:04specifically on YouTube, I saw I kind of
39:05saw that energy reflected where it
39:08looked like young men in particular were
39:09struggling to seduce um a mate, a
39:13partner in the modern world.
39:16Is is that real in your view? Is there
39:19is there something that has changed in
39:21society? Has that always been the case?
39:24Um, is there anything we can do if we're
39:25we're a young man that's struggling in
39:27the modern world because of the internet
39:28and computers and this and dating apps
39:30and
39:32well, a lot of it is, I'm afraid to say,
39:34is internet porn where you get the idea
39:38that, you know, sex is something that
39:40should be very easy and quick and that
39:42women should have look have that kind of
39:45body and physique etc etc and that
39:48becomes your norm etc. That can be that
39:51can be very damaging. But the idea that
39:53things must come easy and quick is is
39:56very prevalent. And to win over someone
40:01like a say you're a man and it's a woman
40:03who might be reluctant to have sex for
40:05good reason or reluctant to have a
40:07relationship
40:09requires some effort. It requires some
40:12thinking. You can't just hack your way.
40:14You can't just swipe and get it. You can
40:16you can have your internet sex, but
40:18you're not going to get that in real
40:19life. It doesn't work that way. It takes
40:22time. It takes patience, you know, and
40:25you're going to have to work and you're
40:26going to be rejected. Being with people
40:29is a skill. Being a social animal,
40:32although there's a part that comes
40:34naturally, if you spend all of your time
40:35here, you're losing that skill of how to
40:38respond to people's body language. You
40:41know, half of the thing is you're
40:43sitting in a bar opposite, let's say
40:46it's a woman, and how she crosses her
40:49legs, how she sips her drink, how she
40:53looks at you, how she touches her hair,
40:55she's signaling things. It's a language.
40:57It's a beautiful language, right? You
41:00have to learn it. And you're not going
41:02to learn it here because you can't. You
41:04have to be in person. It has to be
41:05skin-to-skin. You have to get a feel for
41:08what other people are thinking and
41:10feeling. And we're actually really
41:12really good at that. Humans have that's
41:14what makes us human. It's called mirror
41:16neurons. I can sense what's going on in
41:19your mind. I can read your body
41:21language.
41:22You have to get out in the world and you
41:24have to be put yourself physically out
41:26there and try and try and try and have
41:29rejection.
41:31And I know it sounds awful, but it is a
41:33skill in a way where you're learning how
41:36to like understand and deal with people
41:39and and and and understand that what
41:41they're who they are and get inside
41:42their spirit. It takes time and effort
41:45and patience. So for young men, you have
41:48to realize that, right? You if you if
41:51you think everything has to be easy and
41:53quick, it's never going to work for you.
41:55In the in I talk about the actor, the
41:57Hollywood actor Errol Flynn, who was
42:00perhaps
42:02numerically the greatest sedu male
42:04seducer ever because estimated that he
42:07had seduced close to 3,000 women and he
42:10died when he was 50. And if I I did the
42:13math one day, what how can that possibly
42:16be? Um and I I tried to research what
42:20was his secret and it was hard to find
42:22out. And finally I found a book written
42:24by a woman whom he had seduced, another
42:26actress. And she said he was so relaxed
42:31and so comfortable. It was like being it
42:33was like an animal type thing. And then
42:35when I would sit with him, it was almost
42:37as if I had drunk two martinis just
42:40sitting next to him. His comfort and his
42:43security and his confidence, his relaxed
42:45attitude, it just made me drunk. So
42:49feeling relaxed, feeling confident and
42:52not defensive and comfortable with
42:54yourself is a very powerful seductive
42:58quality. I mean there are many of them
42:59but that's one that I would point out.
43:01Have you ever figured out what builds
43:02confidence? You you earlier on you were
43:05talking about how children need to
43:07experience things firsthand. You can't
43:09just tell them. You can't just tell
43:11someone, for example, to be confident.
43:12Preaching doesn't seem to work. What
43:14what is it in your view that that does
43:16build that true or you also can't fake
43:19confidence?
43:20>> No.
43:20>> I remember I we talked about rejection a
43:22second ago. I was rejected by pretty
43:25much every girl that I was pursuing
43:27between the ages of of 16 and I'd say
43:3122.
43:32>> Really?
43:33>> Yeah. Like and I do you know what it
43:35was? I I was faking confidence. It all
43:37changed when I was actually had a sense
43:40of security in myself. But in the period
43:42where I was like faking confidence, I
43:44was pretending I was confident. Um it
43:47was like they could they just could read
43:49past it. That's almost how I look back
43:51on the situation. So I came to learn
43:53that you can't fake confidence. You
43:54can't pretend to be it because there's
43:56so many sort of micro expressions that
43:59>> that you that look that end up reading
44:01more like insecurity than confidence. Um
44:04but what is real confidence and how does
44:05one build it in your view?
44:06>> Well, you've kind of answered your own
44:08question there in a way. So, um, you
44:11know, conf fake confidence is like
44:13bravado, right? And you're you're
44:15putting on an act and particularly women
44:18who've had to deal with this for, you
44:21know, millennia, they can smell it, they
44:23can sense it. They don't have to it
44:25doesn't have it's not in your words,
44:26it's the body language, etc., etc. Real
44:30confidence comes from actual um actions,
44:34from your actual things you've
44:35accomplished. Right? So, you know, when
44:39you're 22, 21, it's hard to have that
44:41confidence because what is it based on?
44:44You know, maybe it's based, okay, maybe
44:47you're you're really good-looking if you
44:48happen to have that good fortune and you
44:51can feel confident about that and you
44:52don't have to try so hard. All right,
44:55maybe that might work. Or maybe you're
44:57really good at sports. Or maybe you're a
45:00really good dancer or you're a really
45:02great singer, but it's based on
45:04something real. you have a skill. You
45:07have something that separates you. You
45:08have something that you can do that you
45:10can accomplish. Because when you're 21,
45:12it's hard to have those. You know, I
45:14look back on myself when I was that age.
45:16I had nothing. No wonder I got rejected,
45:19you know. Um so it comes from what you
45:24do in life. Okay. the the finest sense
45:27of confidence is actually creating
45:30things and having success and meeting
45:33goals and achieving things and having a
45:35record of that, you know, and maybe what
45:38goes with that is having some money, but
45:40it's not necessarily because you don't
45:42have to have a lot of money and you
45:44don't have to be good-looking to seduce.
45:46That's a myth that I try to explode in
45:48the art of seduction. Some of the
45:50greatest seducers, male and female, were
45:52not good-looking at all. It's about
45:54psychology and it's about how you carry
45:56yourself.
45:58But the confidence comes from actually
46:01what you can do, not how you feel or
46:04what you say. Well, it is how you feel,
46:06but the feeling is based on things that
46:08you actually can do, skills that you
46:10have that separate you that make you
46:12feel really confident, you know. So,
46:16body language.
46:18Yeah. I I find it fascinating that, you
46:20know, there's quotes and things that say
46:2280% of our communication is non-verbal,
46:25etc., etc. Um, body language is so
46:27interesting to me because again, I think
46:29that's one of the things that it's just
46:30impossibly hard to fake. I was reading,
46:33you know, a couple of books on there was
46:35a phase when I was, I don't know, 20,
46:37probably just after being rejected all
46:38the time when I was maybe 22 where I
46:40started reading books from pickup
46:41artists and they would obsess
46:44on the topic of body language. And one
46:46of the things they'd say is, and I I was
46:48explaining this to my girlfriend a
46:50couple of weeks ago, that when when a
46:52man is lower confidence and when he's
46:54desperate, he does this thing called
46:55pecking in a nightclub where he'll like
46:57lean in and like shout in your ear. And
46:59when he's higher confidence, he kind of
47:01leans out and he he'll he'll wait for
47:03you to lean in. Just small things like
47:05that, subtleties like that that in
47:07intuitively we we're reading and
47:09understanding and communicating and etc.
47:12But someone that doesn't have the
47:13confidence probably isn't even aware
47:15that they do. So when I reflect on my
47:17rejection phase, I think gosh, my body
47:20language must have been exuding
47:22desperation and low status and low
47:24value, low self-esteem. What's your
47:26thoughts on body language? And well, um,
47:29in my last book, Human Nature, I wrote a
47:31whole chapter on it. I quoted the figure
47:3495%, but who knows what it really is.
47:37[clears throat] The thing it is that um
47:40we evolved for hundreds of thousands of
47:42years before language existed, right?
47:45And our earliest ancestors depended on
47:48the group for their survival and getting
47:50along and their powers came from
47:51observing other people and their body
47:54language. You could read it. So it's a
47:56skill that's wired into us, wired into
47:58our brains. It's very unique skill that
48:01we humans have. It's just that you don't
48:04learn that when you're a child. when
48:05you're two years old, you have it
48:07because your life depends on it.
48:10You you have to see what if your mother
48:12is is loving you or or your father is
48:14kind to you because if not, you know,
48:16you could be abandoned. Your life
48:18depends on it. You're great at reading
48:19that. And children have are incredibly
48:22adept at picking up body language. So if
48:25someone is fake, if someone's an
48:28impostor, they hate being around
48:30children because children see through
48:31you, you know, like, you know, like
48:33radar, right? because they're so attuned
48:36to it. You had that skill when you were
48:38very young, but you lost it because you
48:40became so oriented with words and you
48:43became so self-absorbed that you're not
48:45paying attention.
48:47But it's extremely important, right? So
48:51the whole body is involved in it. So
48:54you've got to first stop thinking about
48:56people's words so much because the one
48:59thing about words unfortunately is
49:01people can lie. They can say whatever
49:03they want. They can say, "I love your
49:05screenplay. That was fantastic. You were
49:08great in that movie. I thought you were
49:09great, etc., etc." They can say anything
49:11to please, to flatter, to control you.
49:14But body language, man, it doesn't lie.
49:16Right? So, I talk in that book about the
49:19eyes and the fake smile. The fake smile
49:23is something you see every single day,
49:25but you're not paying attention. It's
49:26like, [laughter]
49:28it's kind of tight, right? It's like,
49:32yeah, right. But a real smile, your the
49:36whole face gets animated and there's a
49:38little crinkly thing here as your face
49:40as you as it lights up and your eyes
49:42light up. It's it's hard to even put
49:45into words, but it's there. You can see
49:46it. It's real. It's not faked. Knowing
49:50the difference between a fake and a real
49:51smile is really important in seduction,
49:54in business, or whatever to know if
49:56someone is like, "Yeah, I like that
49:58idea." No, they don't really. They're
50:01saying that to please you. They actually
50:02hate your idea. You master that
50:05language, you can start deciphering all
50:06this people are giving you. The
50:09face, you can disguise it a little bit.
50:12actor.