Full transcript
0:00what is shame right well I dream gets a
0:05bad rap these days I think it's quite a
0:08youthful emotion corrective on certain
0:11kinds of behavior but that kind of shame
0:13is it's sad because about being caught
0:18in a mindset and feeling isolated within
0:20it I think and I think in England in
0:26that kind of stratified clast system
0:28there's a lot of shame at all levels the
0:31middle classes are full of shame and
0:33it's self hating shame the working class
0:35is lower middle class particularly
0:36because they kind of stuck between to a
0:39rock and a hard place
0:42yeah the shame of not being understood
0:44or not being able to make yourself
0:46understood is a kind of corrosive type
0:49of shame I think there's the shame of
0:51being how do you say vulnerable loser
0:58like people don't speak about it very
0:59often in its connectivity but for
1:02instance if I was when I was a kid
1:05speaking to my Jewish friends and coming
1:08from my position we would often think
1:10you have a secret thought of why why did
1:14my people submit to this treatment
1:17that's the question you're not meant to
1:18ask in history class why did six million
1:21died why why were there six million
1:23slaves but I think in a small child
1:27there is a kind of reflexive shame
1:30because you can't understand it and I
1:32think when I was a child particularly
1:34when I looked at situation of Jamaica
1:38and Jamaica and migrants you feel some
1:42shame in the sense of you know what is
1:44wrong with my family that's what you
1:45would say in a simple sense but but the
1:48historical knowledge understanding what
1:49had occurred in Jamaica the history of
1:51Jamaica removes that shame because it
1:54gives you information context historical
1:59depth you know the way I was educated I
2:02didn't know anything about Jamaica I
2:04didn't even really understand that
2:06Jamaicans
2:07were not native to Jamaica for example
2:10British education in the 70s and 80s was
2:13quite
2:13concerned with the inequalities of
2:16American culture but kind of pulled the
2:20veil over what happened in Britain so I
2:22found that even writing this book and
2:24doing all the research incredibly
2:26freeing it kind of you replace shame
2:30with this kind of empowering knowledge
2:33pride I don't find pride very useful
2:35emotion though I understand for a lot of
2:37people it is important and I just come
2:42from a different perspective I I assume
2:44people are including myself just deeply
2:49deeply flawed as the shame is usually
2:52quite appropriate on a day-to-day level
2:56but I don't know that might just be my
3:00issue the question is how can you
3:01function practically I don't there's any
3:04point in self flagellation and feeling
3:06sorry for yourself and thinking how
3:08terrible you are but shame is a kind of
3:10productive thing to create change I
3:13guess I do believe in that yeah so what
3:18I'm hearing is that you are saying that
3:19there's a very positive element to the
3:22word shame I've never ever considered
3:25this could you to be shameless is to be
3:28very very dangerous I think in America a
3:33president at the moment it's a shameless
3:34person and I don't know maybe it's um I
3:41know it's definitely a Christian emotion
3:43no and that's why it's so so out of
3:48fashion but I always thought it quite
3:50quite productive in the Gospels the idea
3:54that you assume that you are entirely in
3:58sin I always assume that because all
4:01this noise true there's so many so many
4:05kind of small vanities and I don't know
4:10we're always boasting or trying to put
4:12something over on somebody or that that
4:15seems to be our daily practice so I
4:16think to have in your mind the idea that
4:20you're probably not as great as you
4:22think you are is useful thought I find
4:24it useful anyway writing is all shame I
4:27I was
4:27that would live right is yes then
4:28everybody feels a shame when they write
4:30it's a shameful practice like who are
4:32you who are you to write 400 pages about
4:35anything why should anybody have to read
4:36them it's everything it's shameful also
4:40the exposure if it is if you write
4:43intimately which all writing there might
4:45even if it's the distant historical
4:46novel is from your brain it's your ideas
4:48so it's like being exposed in front of
4:51people and it's often quite shy people
4:53who write so there's a strange conflict
4:55there you see in comedians to stand up
4:58comedians my brother's one where they
5:00did not extrovert people you know if you
5:02submit them in a pub they're kind of
5:04quiet and and cautious and scared of
5:07life but then they go onstage and say
5:09all these outrageous things I think it's
5:10a strange psychological quirk in which
5:14shame is used to kind of propel you on
5:16to something to say things that you
5:18don't really want to say in public but
5:21yes I mean writing is mostly shame and I
5:24guess the thing I have against pride is
5:26that it's all usually so inaccurate like
5:29I can say like in my sentimental moment
5:32I'm so proud of my people meaning the
5:35kind of black diaspora look at all the
5:37amazing things we do look at Stevie
5:39Wonder and Usain Bolt and Neil deGrasse
5:42Tyson and all these extreme Michelle
5:45Obama and both the blood but the bottom
5:46line is I am NOT any of those people and
5:48I have no responsibility for them you
5:52know it's a sentimental idea night and
5:54I'm moved by it but it's also not true I
5:55can't take these people are individuals
5:59who achieved by themselves you have a
6:01collective sense of pride bits usually
6:04it can run so quickly into something
6:07that is dangerous and unhealthy
6:10nationalism or all kinds of collective
6:13thoughts
6:14so I've rather talk in those in those
6:18situations of love to say I love these
6:20people I love what they've done I
6:21appreciate and love it but pride in it I
6:24don't I don't see why that's useful
6:27I sometimes older writers will tell you
6:29you know you're in your study and you
6:33take down an earlier book and just on a
6:35whim you start reading it and then them
6:37you can have a feeling like oh it's not
6:39bad but
6:41always feels quite distant partly
6:44because when you're writing it's such an
6:45obsessive thing and then when you're
6:47done it's very um it's like pushing
6:49something out of your body you don't
6:51want to be involved with it anymore but
6:54I have that sometimes like I'll pick up
6:55a novel and read a chapter or something
6:57but a very I kind of merge of reading
7:00any of them from beginning to end the
7:02only thing I read with some pride
7:04occasionally is an essay because it's
7:06shortened yes okay for those painful to
7:11do yeah but but I think you can't deny
7:14the satisfaction of I think marty name
7:16is sort of having written that I think
7:19is very strong it's not very active
7:21emotion but um it's nice to know that
7:25you have written some things that's nice
7:28when you started out writing you might
7:32have been a singer or a dancer perhaps
7:35not right but this is a quite wonderful
7:38palette to have to choose from I think
7:42we're talking about it last night and
7:44it's a mother writers around the table
7:47who have these other talents there's a
7:49theory that I think it's Foster Wallace
7:50had that every writer someone who could
7:52do something else very well but not
7:54quite well enough and that I found to be
7:57true got a lot of ex portsmen actors
8:00dancers singers people who had some
8:03skill in a different area but but not
8:06quite enough to do what they wanted to
8:08do I think writing gives the most
8:09possibility of improvement I was never
8:12gonna be Stevie Wonder no matter how
8:14hard I tried but with writing you can
8:16get better and you might even get to
8:18meet Steve yeah you can get better and
8:22and I think for a lot of writers the
8:25problem is performance think of Wallace
8:29playing tennis for it even that it's
8:31they like the act but they don't want to
8:33do it in front of people writing is
8:35wonderfully solitary and I'm reading I
8:39read those crazy right wing websites
8:41kind of interested in the psychology of
8:43those people and I think you have to
8:45imagine that for eight years they were
8:47covered in shame it might seem
8:49impossible to imagine but they hated the
8:52country they were in they were ashamed
8:54of their president
8:55they felt like strangers in their land
8:57they were completely alienated that's
8:59the only way I can really comprehend it
9:01because I think that there are many
9:02people who felt that way and I think not
9:04being able to see that will not help the
9:08left you have to try and conceive of it
9:11as unpleasant is it doesn't mean you
9:13have to agree with it or submit to it
9:14but you have to be able to see that for
9:16what it is that all these sometimes
9:20occasionally unthinking pleasure I took
9:23in Obama pleasures I don't mean
9:25politically but pleasures of personal
9:27identification which I think was very
9:28strong for a lot of liberals he likes my
9:31music he reads my kind of books he's my
9:33kind of person he talks like me all of
9:35that which such--such seems such a
9:37pleasure quite aside from what actually
9:40went on politically in that
9:41administration was equally infuriating
9:44to many people who found him to be alien
9:47entirely to their sensibility to their
9:49taste to their ideas to the way they
9:51talked I think you have to conceive of
9:53that and how much rage builds up over
9:56eight years and and then feeling the
9:58full force of it now I think you have to
10:02think of emotions as real even when
10:05they're extremely alien to you I think
10:07that's the first step
10:07in them having some form of
10:10communication is that actually a
10:12writer's thing I mean you you slip into
10:15the skin of others yeah it's part you
10:18know but I also think you know I I meet
10:24people with fairly extreme views when
10:26I'm on the road or when you're in a taxi
10:28or it is possible to talk to people but
10:32you need to talk to them and you need to
10:33listen to them as well first the feeling
10:36of not being even listened to is it's
10:38very difficult I think to stand I'm
10:40amazed how much of it comes down to
10:42language I think that's the one thing
10:43that really strikes me about the
10:44right-wing sites is that when you get
10:45down to the core complaints the things
10:49that really upset them are linguistic
10:51like black lives matter has driven them
10:55literally up the wall they find that
10:59those three words so provocative then
11:04it's deranging people I find that
11:06fascinating part
11:08you know the my gut instinct is rage ful
11:13I feel like are you saying to me that
11:16after two hundred and fifty years of
11:18this twisted racial history I can't even
11:19say these three words without you
11:21feeling hurt and mortified and raged
11:25like I feel the rage but my rage
11:27matching their rate is pointless I think
11:29it's more interesting to think about
11:30what it is about white people that find
11:37the idea of any collectivity that
11:40excludes them so upsetting I've always
11:43thought that's very interesting even
11:45when I was in school on a bus and I'd
11:47see group of white people getting angry
11:49because for Bengalis were talking
11:51Bengali what is I was voice fascinating
11:55what is the Aang what is making you so
11:57angry and I think part of it is like if
12:01you've ever been in a marriage or any
12:02relationship it's insecurity jealousy
12:07and a kind of vanity that you should
12:09always be included in all things so I
12:10think trying to understand the
12:12motivations behind it is interesting why
12:16is it so why'd you turn that moment of
12:18mystery where you're not sure what's
12:20going on immediately into rage why does
12:21it have to be transformed into range
12:23could it be transformed into something
12:24else like curiosity concern interest
12:28acknowledgement that maybe this
12:29particular thing isn't to do with you
12:31it's okay sometimes for things not to be
12:33to do with you of course minorities are
12:36so used to things not being to do with
12:37them that they don't tend to get rageful
12:40at that you know now there's just push
12:42back the idea of representation about
12:43being seen here on TV shows and
12:46magazines when I was a kid the idea that
12:47I wasn't present in anything was just
12:50the way it was you know but do you think
12:53actually when you are a writer and and
12:55keep evolving that you are in a sense
12:58erasing what you did to go on to
13:00something else but you bring something
13:02along from what you already did that's
13:05how I feel like I'm always trying to
13:08destroy what came before you know just
13:12in order that you have somewhere to go
13:14but I I think writing is more
13:18conservative when I think of people like
13:20Lori Anson for example real
13:23artists it's the only word for them
13:25there is a kind of truly destructive
13:28urge in artists like that they're just
13:30constantly making and tearing down
13:32writing is a little more linear it's
13:35more like building on something but I'm
13:39always hoping for a kind of revolution
13:42in the sentence something new to happen
13:44yeah also perhaps because writing is a
13:47bit old-fashioned
13:49it is very old-fashioned right but I
13:51really don't mind that when I write I'm
13:54really thinking primarily of my
13:56generation and I guess the people older
13:58than me and that I'm writing for them
14:01and taking this little thing to the
14:03grave and when I think about younger
14:04people I'm always delighted if they read
14:07me but always quite surprised as well I
14:09don't I don't expect it and I also don't
14:12expect the novel in this form to go on
14:15infinitely I think there are many more
14:18interesting and immediate mediums that
14:20that generation are going to use you
14:22know and almost I'm saying this that's
14:26tough I I just think there are other
14:29ways of doing it
14:31I think you can do an incredible mixture
14:34of visual aural text I just can't
14:37imagine people continuing to write these
14:41tomes I'd be surprised we'll see but as
14:46long as I can write my until I go I'll
14:48be I'll be happy enough for that but do
14:50you feel that the young people have now
14:52from Twitter and and texting and a
14:57different language no I
14:59I mean I'm reading a book by someone who
15:01was 22 when she wrote it's absolutely
15:04fantastic the form is different um there
15:09were little clues like even if I didn't
15:12know her age and I didn't I would know
15:14she was obvious generation like my
15:16husband pointed out we were reading a
15:17lot of books by young people young women
15:19how many times in these books the
15:21character usually the first person will
15:22say something emotional what happened
15:25and instead of responding either in the
15:27narrative or vocally as you would in a
15:29traditional novel the character will
15:32pinch a bit of their skin until it
15:34bleeds or do this
15:36or hold their draw as so straight as if
15:37the body was a dissociated thing you
15:39know he said that to me and I put my two
15:41fingernails into my hand until it bled
15:43though I keep on finding these lines
15:44over and over again that's very
15:47fascinating to me you know they don't
15:49have they don't the idea of verbalizing
15:52an emotion is quite distant and the body
15:55is treated like this strange thing you
15:57have to drag around after you've
15:59finished your text messages and emails
16:02and your virtual life why why have I got
16:04this flesh bucket that I'm carrying
16:06around I'm very struck by that
16:08perspective when I keep on finding it I
16:10think that's very different from the way
16:11we wrote though so that's really
16:13interesting to me it's it's not a
16:15particularly sad thing and the arc of
16:18these novels quite often seems to be the
16:21character starts out very arch and and
16:25completely embedded in ideology argument
16:28internet argument and by the end of the
16:30book realizes simple things like I have
16:34a body I might actually want to Baby
16:36Love is complicated you can't just love
16:40anyone in any direction they learn these
16:42very things which would have been for us
16:44first principles they learn at the end
16:47but I don't think that means they're
16:48slower it's just that they're saying
16:49here are these things we've been given
16:51they don't seem to have any relevance to
16:52our lives
16:53oh wait actually I I do have this flesh
16:56packet and it has these various
16:58irrational desires and needs so I find I
17:01find that all really interesting but I
17:03I'm very engaged by it by the way their
17:06writing so disassociated from themselves
17:09that's cool
17:19you