Water Rights Lease Program Stakeholder Forum

0:07Good morning everyone. Um, thank you so

0:10much for being here today. Um, I'm Brian

0:13Murphy. Um, welcome. I'm with B

0:15Consulting and here to help facilitate

0:17the conversation today. Um, I do want to

0:20note that public and we have some people

0:23online in addition uh who are kind of

0:25listening in. Um there are mics in the

0:28ceiling. So just be aware that you

0:29everybody in the room is sort of online

0:31and we're recording this as well because

0:33we really want this to be a super

0:35transparent process. Um there are others

0:38interested in the topic beyond those who

0:40were invited today.

0:43So I'm going to help set the stage. Um

0:45but my role as a facilitator is really

0:48that you don't hear a whole lot from me

0:50and my partner Bethany

0:53in a moment. We're here to help set

0:55stage and facilitate the conversation.

0:58Um the goal today is really to hear

1:00mainly from the invited stakeholders who

1:03are around the table. Uh we'll have you

1:05all introduce yourself in a moment. Um

1:07but our goal today is to hear from you

1:10about your interest um in the water

1:13rights lease program. Um we want to have

1:15some dialogue. what you're looking at,

1:17what your hopes are, what your concerns

1:18are, what your thoughts are, um, on the

1:21particularities of a program that might

1:23be designed. Um, but hopefully you saw

1:26in the pre-eread

1:29that, and George will speak to this in a

1:31moment, um, we're really early in the

1:33program design process. Um, the the

1:36pilot program has been in existence

1:38since 2024, but in terms of like really

1:41shaping a deliberate program, we're

1:43early in that process. Um, and the PUD

1:46asked us to help facilitate an

1:47information gathering session as the

1:49first step really in hearing from the

1:52community about, you know, what are

1:53folks hopes for this? What are your

1:55questions? What are your concerns? So,

1:56that's the focus today. Um, and I might

1:59say that might be like a little bit

2:02frustrating at some point today cuz we

2:04have you all for three hours and thank

2:06you so much for giving three hours of

2:07your time for this really important

2:09topic, but we only have you for three

2:11hours, right? So, we're going to hear

2:13some dialogue. I'm sure there'll be some

2:15questions that go unresolved. I

2:16guarantee you there will be points of

2:19tension or points of like um you know

2:22decision-m that do not get resolved

2:24today. This is not a decision-m process

2:27today. We're just here to listen. The

2:29commission's here, but they are not

2:31acting today. There's going to be a

2:32process that follows this where they'll

2:34take this the input that comes in today

2:36into a proper decision-making process

2:38that of course will be transparent. that

2:40of course will give other opportunities

2:42for input but today is like kind of a

2:44kickoff in a sense to kind of hear from

2:47[clears throat] you all. Um, so we um

2:53we um also have staff here today to

2:55provide some background information. And

2:57so as you saw in the pre-ereads um and

2:59you'll see from 9:15 to about 9:50,

3:02George and team are going to provide

3:03just a little bit of context. Um so we

3:06kind of enter the conversation with a

3:08shared understanding um of the

3:10background of the program and what some

3:12of the some of the context is. Um we'll

3:14have a short break. We're also going to

3:16do we're going to focus primarily on a

3:17poster exercise. You all have a chance

3:19to give your input and then we're going

3:21to facilitate some of that dialogue here

3:23and then we'll we'll wrap promptly at

3:2512:00. Um at any point if you need to

3:28exit the room, um the code for the

3:30restroom is right there on the wall, uh

3:327104. Um there's Wi-Fi code right there.

3:35There's great goodies and stuff, so feel

3:37free to take advantage um of all of

3:39that. So, let's go ahead and do some

3:43introductions. Um I am joined by Bethany

3:46uh Bethany Hoy. So do you want to

3:47introduce yourself?

3:48>> Sure. Good morning everyone. My name is

3:50Bethany Hoy. I'm an analyst and

3:51facilitator with B consulting. And if

3:53there's anything I can do to help you um

3:57be heard today, please let me know how I

3:59can help. Thank you. Great.

4:02>> We've got the three commissioners in the

4:04room as well. So I'm just going to go in

4:05order here. So Commissioner Miller, do

4:07you want to say hello and we'll go

4:08right?

4:09>> Commissioner Miller, president of the

4:10board this year. Thanks for being here.

4:12Joe Linquist, secretary of the boards.

4:15>> Granny Hamburg, vice president of Pet

4:18Gilbert, general counsel.

4:23>> George, you want to say hello?

4:25>> Oh, way over here. I'm George, general

4:27manager. Just a point of clarification.

4:31Brian, we're Nick's listening to the

4:33audio and it might be easier just to use

4:35the ceiling mics only and not even use

4:38the lapel mic.

4:39>> I I really love the mic.

4:40>> I know. Our

4:44ceiling mics are picking everything up

4:45really well and I think that's creating

4:47a different issue. Great. There we go.

4:50>> Any other staff George that you want to

4:51introduce?

4:53>> Uh Bill will come up in our introduction

4:55and we just keep going.

4:57>> Great. Um well, let's hear from from the

5:00stakeholder group and I'm just going to

5:01go here in order. Um there were invitees

5:04out to this group. Um not everyone's

5:06able to join today, but I'm going to

5:08start at the top. um city of Anna Cortis

5:10if you could introduce yourself. You're

5:12welcome to share your pronouns um but

5:14also your role in within the

5:16organization that you're representing.

5:18>> Good morning. Ryan Walters. I'm the

5:19mayor.

5:20>> Great. Good morning. Thank you, Brian.

5:23>> City of Burlington.

5:28>> Oh, okay. City Mount Vernon.

5:30>> Good morning. I'm Peter Donovan, mayor

5:31of the city of Mount.

5:36>> Hello.

5:38Amazing. Okay. Um I did see Ess

5:46that would be you and you just deputy

5:49director at the economic development

5:50alliance this

5:52>> do we have anyone from the port of

5:54Seattle

6:06for salmon

6:08Okay.

6:13>> How about the SC

6:16>> executive director of the Scotty Council

6:18conference?

6:19>> Great. You want to have a seat up at the

6:21table?

6:22>> No, thanks. [laughter]

6:24>> We do hope you'll join support members.

6:28>> Okay, great. Uh, let's see. Then we're

6:30on to Scotty County.

6:32>> Rob, Scotty County Commissioner.

6:34>> Great.

6:35Uh the drainage

6:38will

6:42uh let's see where are we? Uh the

6:44drainage and irrigation irrigation

6:46district consortium

6:48>> writer Jen executive director

6:53>> and the scatter valley farm

6:58>> I don't think so watershed council

7:02okay scatonians preserve farmland I met

7:05earlier there we go and blossom

7:11golden outside council welcome

7:14Uh the upper Scandia Indian crowd

7:16>> David Hopkins general counsel welcome um

7:20ecology

7:21>> good morning society department of

7:23ecology

7:25>> and let's see fish and wildlife

7:29so WSU I have Dom

7:35welcome and western Washington

7:37agricultural

7:39>> yeah Michaela staples board president

7:43All um did I miss anyone?

7:47Let's hear briefly from the folks in the

7:48back. I think it's helpful to know who's

7:50in the room. So Kevin, why don't we

7:51start with you and then we'll go down

7:52the line.

7:53>> Kevin

7:55either

7:57Aaron Taylor

7:59and head

8:04Truman

8:06Mark head

8:10off manager D. Charlie Bush, city

8:13administrator, city of Cedar Hall.

8:17>> Great. Um, I appreciate that like there

8:20is a design here, right? We invited

8:21representatives from these organizations

8:24and those are the folks that we're

8:25hoping to hear from today. Um, there are

8:26many there are others who are listening

8:28online. There'll be a recording as well.

8:30Um, so I think there's a lot of interest

8:32in this topic. We're talking about

8:33water. So interest. It's essential. Um

8:36but we also have we had a desire to kind

8:39of create like a diverse group would be

8:41able to speak to different perspectives

8:42and I expect that some of what we'll

8:44hear today um hence my comment earlier

8:47that we are not going to come to

8:48resolution today or make any decisions

8:50given that the different perspectives

8:51that will no doubt surface in the room

8:54and I promise to try to limit the water

8:57related analogies but they just keep

8:59they just keep coming. Um, any questions

9:02before we move into any process related

9:04questions before we move into some

9:06overviews from George and team about

9:08some related topics?

9:14Great. Happy to like take them as they

9:16come up. Um, also happy to take

9:18questions for George. Like let's try to

9:20stick to these sort of factual

9:21questions. We're just trying to

9:22establish some context here. So, if you

9:24would just raise your hand if you have a

9:26question, I'll call on you. Uh we have

9:28about 35 minutes um for Georgia to set

9:30the stage um and then we're going to

9:33move back into sort of the group

9:34activity starting at about 950

9:38of our timing here.

9:40>> All right, I'll pass you. Thank you.

9:45Good morning everyone.

9:47>> Thank you all for coming. This is a it's

9:50it's a a big meeting for us and so I

9:52appreciate everybody taking time out

9:53today to come. I know it's a challenging

9:56time for different different industry

9:58especially the farming industry right

9:59now. So um as far as the meeting

10:01schedule I appreciate everybody making

10:03time during the day to be here. So thank

10:05you. This is really important to to SC

10:07PD. So on behalf of the PD and the

10:09commissioners and all the staff welcome.

10:11Um it's a big uh program that we're

10:13working on and big in terms of

10:15importance importance for us importance

10:18for the community and I you know like

10:21Brian said water is a it's a big issue.

10:23It's an important issue. Water rights

10:24important issue. So, um, we're happy to

10:27have your feedback and input into our

10:30process. And so, again, thank you for

10:32being here. I along with Bill Truman are

10:36going to share some information. Uh,

10:40it's the same information that we that I

10:42emailed everybody um either as part of

10:46the invitation or the next day. I can't

10:47remember exactly which email it was

10:49attached to, but um there there's a lot

10:53of information related to this this

10:55program water rights and what we're

10:58trying to do. And I just want to

11:01acknowledge that there's a lot of

11:03different levels of understanding and

11:06expertise in this room. So, I'm trying

11:09not to get in too deep into the weeds.

11:11I'm going to try and keep it at a higher

11:13level, but like Brian said, we're happy

11:15to entertain questions if we do want to

11:18dig into something specific, but um you

11:22know, and I know some people understand

11:24this really well and others are here

11:26graciously to represent their

11:28organization or agency and you know,

11:30want to listen. Uh but if you have any

11:33questions or you know, just need

11:35something to help you understand, feel

11:36free to free to ask. So, I'm going to go

11:39through the four different files that we

11:42sent people. Um, a half an hour should

11:44be enough time and I'm just going to

11:48speak on each of them. I added text to

11:50each of the slides and so um when I get

11:53to that point you'll see what I mean.

11:55But

11:57one thing we sent, so this is an

11:59executive summary that we developed um

12:02as a PUB and this is kind of what we're

12:04using to just let people know what has

12:07happened and what we're trying to do. So

12:09I don't need to get into this too much.

12:10This covers just a lot of the high

12:12points. U so that is in your email

12:16inbox. It's also at your table. All

12:17these materials have been printed out

12:19and you should be in front of you if you

12:20want to make notes or or ask questions.

12:24So, we developed this early on to try

12:26and let people know what we're doing.

12:29Uh, and then we developed this early on.

12:31So, this is the process that we want to

12:33go through to develop a water rights

12:35lease program. We are just in that first

12:39box. So, we're like Brian said, we

12:42haven't made any decisions yet. We're

12:44trying to uh facilitate a transparent

12:47process. Make sure we get input and

12:48feedback and go through this slowly and

12:51deliberately. So we come up with

12:52something on the other end that's going

12:54to be sustainable. So we are just in

12:56that first policy development uh box.

12:59Your feedback will be used to used by

13:02the board to help um populate the policy

13:04in the program. So uh just an idea. We

13:07we haven't made a whole bunch of uh

13:10movement on this yet. this is an

13:11important step in this. So, we're at

13:14that stakeholder input and then

13:16hopefully later this year we get to

13:17drafting a policy framework and then

13:20eventually in policy adoption.

13:26I won't keep talking about this. Um

13:29there is again a level of understanding

13:32for different people. We're going to use

13:35units of flow, units of measurement,

13:38acronyms for different things. As an

13:40engineer, we love acronyms. We love, you

13:42know, the calculations and all that.

13:44But, you know, we've we tried to create

13:46a glossery. If you read something or if

13:49we say something that maybe you don't

13:51understand what it is, hopefully the

13:53glossery can answer your question.

13:57Uh, there's two pages of

14:00all right.

14:02So, I on our meeting on May 26th, so we

14:06meet twice a month, every second and

14:08fourth Tuesday. On May 26th, I gave a

14:10presentation

14:11about a water rights lease program and

14:13its operational consideration. So things

14:16that

14:17uh how we think about this program from

14:20an operational point of view from the

14:22PUB. And so this presentation in in its

14:25entirety is on our YouTube web page. So

14:28you can go to it and listen to the whole

14:30thing, watch all the slides. Um it's

14:34probably half an hour long. Uh, I

14:37selected a few slides out of that and

14:39emailed it to everybody and I added text

14:41on it for context. So, I'm not going

14:43through that entire thing, but if

14:45there's pieces that you feel like are

14:47missing or I didn't cover, it's probably

14:49in that original presentation. I'll go

14:51back and look at it.

14:53Um, so only selected slides are included

14:56in what we're going to talk about today.

14:58And so, the beginning of that

15:00presentation and these slides include

15:02information about water rights. And so

15:03I'm going to ask Bill Truman who's our

15:05engineering supervisor to talk about

15:07these. Again, there's a lot of

15:09background and a lot of history with

15:11these and we're not going to go

15:13backwards and and tell you how we got to

15:15where we are. It's more about here's

15:16where we are and here's what we want to

15:18look at going forward. So go ahead,

15:21Bill.

15:24Yeah.

15:25>> Good morning. Uh yeah, I'm Bill Truman.

15:28I've been involved with Rights P since

15:312012.

15:33So there's been a lot that's happened

15:35since then, but there also was quite a

15:37bit that happened before that.

15:40A lot of information, as George said, a

15:42lot of details. And George talked about

15:44the presentation in May that that he

15:47provided related more primarily to

15:49operational constraints. I presented

15:52also to the commission in April, if I

15:54remember, a little more detail than what

15:57I'm going to go over today. There's

15:59information there. And over the years

16:01we've given a number of presentations

16:03also that are out there related to our

16:06water rights and the uh temporary

16:10transfers that have been occurring

16:13since 2015.

16:15So this slide is a little bit of highle

16:18information related to our water rights.

16:20With water rights, there are two primary

16:23numerical limitations that we operate

16:26under an in a maximum instantaneous,

16:29which is primarily what we're going to

16:32focus what we focus on in this

16:33discussion. Uh, as far as the the

16:36maximum instantaneous withdrawal rate

16:38that can happen from your source related

16:40to your water rights, the other

16:42limitation is the total annual volume,

16:44also known as the annual quantity.

16:47uh but that's that's not really a big

16:50part of this conversation. So the two

16:52tables at the top of this slide help

16:55paint a picture of the suite of water

16:57rights that the PV holds related to the

16:59Judy system. We have other water rights

17:02related to satellite systems. We have

17:04some standby and preserve water rights

17:06related to the Judy system that that uh

17:09weren't talked about in the 1996 MOA.

17:13They're still related to the Judy

17:15system. Uh so that these tables are

17:17split around that con that uh topic of

17:21the 1996 MOA. So prior to 1996, the PB

17:25held a number of water rights that that

17:28are quite old and the

17:33QI the instantaneous quantity for those

17:35water rights totals to 40.1 cubic feet

17:38per second. That's the unit of measure

17:41that we're probably going to use the

17:42most in this conversation. Like George

17:44said, we're geeks on details and we also

17:46bounce back and forth between different

17:48units of measurement. It can get

17:49confusing often, but we tend to stay

17:53with cubic feet per second in this

17:56conversation. So those water rights were

17:59related to our original sources in the

18:02Cultus Mountains, which are due east of

18:04us here. That's where the PD uh

18:07historically received their water in

18:10addition to two sites on the Scadget

18:12River or in close proximity to the

18:15Scadget River. And the what the MOA

18:18brought about was uh making some changes

18:21related to those especially those

18:23Scadget River sources to be able to move

18:26them to our current pump station

18:28location. And

18:31then we also had

18:35have now water rights on the right. Some

18:37of those were already in play as far as

18:39applications and process when the MOA

18:41happened. Some others have uh came about

18:44since then. And

18:47what those are related to is acquire

18:50being able to realize our total

18:51hydraulic capacity which originally was

18:54at the cultist mountain streams. But

18:56with the MOA uh the PUD was enabled to

19:01use that total capacity at a combination

19:04of the Cultus Mountains or the Scadget

19:06River. There's there's a lot of

19:08flexibility there that it really helps

19:10the PUD serve our water system and will

19:13help it serve the water system in the

19:15future. So that's what the table on the

19:17right is. So those water rights on the

19:19right, those are as we call

19:21interruptible water rights. They're

19:23junior to the Scadget River flow rule

19:26that came into place after the MOA in

19:302001. And the water rights on the left,

19:34those are the senior or uninterruptible

19:37water rights that are often that are in

19:38the center of the conversation as it

19:40relates to the temporary water rights

19:43transfers. So those are the water rights

19:45listed on the left. So our total

19:48capacity as far as instantaneous

19:52uh withdrawal rate is 55.39

19:55cubic feet per second. That's our total

19:56capacity that we could take at any

19:58combination of all those sources. And

20:01but that is interruptible in part

20:03because as as the tables help you see

20:06some of some of the water rights that

20:07make up that total suite are seen

20:12and it restates that uninterruptible

20:14amount of 40.1 CFS that the PUD holds.

20:23A few minutes about the history of the

20:25water rights transfer since 2015. Again,

20:28a lot there's a lot of information.

20:30There's there have been adjustments and

20:31changes over time, but in 2015, that was

20:35the first time that the PUD engaged in a

20:39temporary water X transfer. Uh that was

20:41a period of state declared drought and

20:45it happened in two phases.

20:47There has been a little while. I might

20:50miss a few details on this, but uh I

20:53think it was in June of 2015 when this

20:56was all coming together. There was a

20:58one-time 24-hour transfer that happened

21:01where the PUD transferred water rights

21:04to the irrigation districts 15 and 22.

21:09And then later on in the summer, a more

21:13uh extensive transfer occurred for the

21:17rest of that year. And same situation,

21:19it was 5CS.

21:21Um, a part of that, uh, change that

21:24occurred was a provision of having title

21:27restrictions where the irrigators that

21:31were using that transfer, those new

21:33sources, those temporary source points

21:36of withdrawal, had to operate around

21:38title restriction, which was 3 hours

21:41before until 3 hours after the two high

21:44tides of each day.

21:49And then in 2019 and 2021, those were

21:54also state declared droughts where

21:56similar transfers occurred and they also

22:00had the title restrictions as a place of

22:02those transfers. through those transfers

22:05of 2015 um all the way through 2023

22:10the PUB operated Scadget River pump

22:12station as we normally have and and

22:15that's we'll talk about that a little

22:17more in the next slide but our

22:20withdrawals were not brought into the

22:22conversation except that we have to

22:24manage that total withdrawal limit of

22:2740.1 that we talked about we have to

22:29make sure that whatever the combination

22:31of the PD and the irrigators doesn't

22:34exceed that because it is our water

22:36right regardless of it being used by

22:38another entity. It's it's our water

22:40right that's being put in play. Our

22:42limitations still stay up there. So we

22:44had we had to manage that

22:47but generally we run u we'll talk about

22:51it on the next slide but two usually two

22:53pumps there's been a few times three

22:55pumps uh at at the pump station during

22:59the summer. Then 2023, that was another

23:03repeat of very similar to 2019 2021

23:07state declared droughts.

23:10And then George mentioned the pilot

23:12program that's been in place since 2024.

23:15So those transfers were

23:20not related explicitly to a state

23:22declared drought. They're a non drought

23:23transfer with Department of Ecology. So

23:25there's they're not under those

23:27emergency provisions. So we had to we

23:29went through public knows that's

23:32required as a part of those transfers

23:34and

23:36those have been in place 24 25 and 26.

23:40There have been state declared droughts

23:43during those time periods but the

23:45transfers were not bound by by that

23:50and in 2026. So let me take a quick step

23:54back. In 2024 when we created the pilot

23:58also Scaj Valley Farms a private farm

24:00corporation was brought into the mix and

24:03also received the transfer of to CFS.

24:06you can see in the middle of the tape.

24:08[clears throat]

24:08And then in 26, Department of Fish and

24:11Wildlife approached us with the college

24:14in partnering um to help facilitate a

24:17project. Department of Fish and Wildlife

24:19has out of Delta. And this year in 2026,

24:23we have a a small transfer that has been

24:26authorized. It's not been put in

24:28operation yet with Department of Fish

24:30Wild of

24:3205 CFS, which is about 20 gallons per

24:35minute of withdrawal.

24:38And the last thing I'll say about the

24:41pilot program is the title restrictions

24:43were not included in that. And George

24:47may talk about this more, but there

24:50there was a provision an agreement by

24:52the PD to limit our withdrawals at the

24:56pump station when the transfer is in

24:59play, a river is below the indirect flow

25:02to one pump

25:08and I'll have a little more information

25:09on that. So, what's SRD?

25:13>> I'm sorry for the acronym. It's it's our

25:16our acronym for the Scadget River

25:17diversion. It's our pump station

25:19facility if it's on the Scadget River

25:22right across the river from Sea Woolly.

25:25Good question. Sorry about that. Uh so

25:28this bar chart helps

25:31depict a little bit better the various

25:34types of instantaneous withdrawals that

25:36have been happening or can happen. And

25:39the the top yellow line is that that

25:45interruptible limit that to that overall

25:47maximum limit that we talked about of 55

25:50CFS. So all our sources cannot at any

25:53one time exceed that value. And then the

25:57blue line is the senior or interrupt or

26:00uninterruptible limit of 40.1. So first

26:03bar on the left we're just we'll just

26:05move from left to right. First bar on

26:07the left helps paint a picture of

26:10that's the maximum amount. We we do

26:12reach that most years at some point of

26:14the year and have reached that most

26:17years that at some point of the year not

26:18every year depends on how we're managing

26:20the reservoir. Uh the cultist mountain

26:23streams they have limitations that arose

26:26out of the MOA also where we have

26:29instream flows we have to manage to on

26:30those creeks. So that's our maximum that

26:34that can happen as far as instantaneous

26:37And then the bars beyond that help paint

26:40a picture of different scenarios when

26:42the river is below the instream flow

26:44amount. So

26:46the second and third bar from the left

26:49that's helping see two or three pumps.

26:53So these are we have five pumps in the

26:55pump station and they're not adjustable.

26:58You turn 1 2 3 4 5 on. there's not uh a

27:02way to really massage that in a fine to

27:05fine manner yet with how that pump

27:07station was built. So, it's a bit coarse

27:09and how it actually comes into play uh

27:12when we're running it. So, that's where

27:14you can see three pumps, two pumps.

27:16Historically, two pumps has been enough

27:18if we manage the reservoir well, had

27:20decent water coming in in the winter

27:22time from the from the creeks, the

27:24culpus mountain creeks.

27:27uh two pumps is around equivalent to our

27:30summer peak demand from our water system

27:33currently. So just where we're at

27:34currently with the water system, it

27:36balances out pretty well. Depends on

27:40different situations, but that's in

27:42general.

27:43And then the fourth [clears throat] bar

27:46shows those emergency transfers that I

27:48talked about in 2015 through 20 23. And

27:55the blue bar is the PD again operating

27:58in general running two pumps. And then

28:00the orange or whatever call color you

28:02want to call that that's depicting the

28:06uh the two irrigation districts 22 and

28:0815 that were in action during those

28:11emergency transfers. Shows shows the

28:14difference in total cumulative

28:16withdrawal. We were still below the the

28:1740.1.

28:19But during those times, we the title

28:21restrictions were occurring where that

28:24bar related to the irrigators was only

28:27in play half the day, 6 hours around the

28:30high tide, the two high tides.

28:34>> A good question about that.

28:36>> So your 40 CFS is prior to the entrance,

28:40senior to the flow. Is that correct?

28:42>> Correct. And so when you're making that

28:45the one two three the fourth bar there

28:48showing the maximum uh withdrawals that

28:51you provide during the droughts that's

28:53still remains below the instream flow

28:55rule or that's not below the entry flow

28:58rule it it's below your senior right to

29:01the inream flow. That's correct.

29:03>> Yep. So we are assigning

29:08it's not in this slideshow thing. We'll

29:11we'll see here. Forgive me on that.

29:13We're assigning specific portions or

29:15specific water rights of our senior

29:17water rights in these transfers. So we

29:19we have that package that was in the

29:21left table. We we uh account for that.

29:25We we have a portion that's reserved

29:27that are in play when we're running our

29:30withdrawals during the low flow periods.

29:33And then we have specific water rights

29:35that are trans that the temporary

29:37transfers are related to for the

29:39irrigators that are in play. At the end

29:41of the day, it has to be it must be

29:43below the 40 mark.

29:48>> Just for my clarification, um there are

29:51some cultural people taking out of a

29:53hydrant. Is that included in this or

29:55that's totally separate?

29:57>> So that's coming out of our pipe water

29:58system. So if it really is apples

30:00totally separate. Yeah, that's that's

30:04>> that's the supply for those temporary

30:07uses of the fire hydrants is coming out

30:09of the blue bar. So that's our raw water

30:12that's coming into the duty system to

30:15supply supply those needs.

30:19>> I'm curious um if it's a senior water

30:22rate, why is it interrupted?

30:25>> Which one?

30:27the the transfers

30:30as far as the title restrictions.

30:32>> Yeah.

30:33>> So that

30:39I don't know how best to answer that.

30:41Jordan, if you want to speak in on that.

30:43>> It was a it was through a negotiation of

30:46I think when one of the first transfers

30:48were done. Um [clears throat] that was

30:51the agreement that was made was that you

30:54know to to make the process smoother

30:56with ecology the application

30:59um that we could transfer them apply the

31:03title restrictions and then it could

31:05happen quickly. It was just like kind of

31:07a negotiation to make that decision

31:09happen at the time and then that just

31:11carried through to the other years as

31:13well.

31:15There wasn't any

31:17uh study done or anything like that. It

31:20was simply through negotiation

31:26that answer the question.

31:27>> Yeah.

31:30>> Are these just different possibilities

31:32or these are situations that have

31:34actually happened? I'm just a little

31:35confused about what this what each one

31:37represents.

31:37>> Sure. Yeah. Well, they all of these have

31:40happened.

31:41Why does [clears throat] the amount of

31:42water that you use fluctuate so

31:45dramatically?

31:47>> So George was in the next couple slides,

31:49Jordan talked quite a bit about that.

31:50>> Okay, so that that's a good question and

31:52it does fluctuate dramatically

31:54throughout the year depending on a lot

31:56of different circumstances as far as

31:58managing Judy Reservoir, which is a

32:01billion and a half gallons of water that

32:04is raw water that we manage to feed our

32:06water treatment plant throughout the

32:08year with these variations in the

32:09swimsuits. So there is quite a variety

32:12compared to you look at a a system like

32:14the city of Van Cortis is pumping right

32:16out of Scadget River. That's their only

32:18source. They don't have a reservoir like

32:20Judy Resbor. They're pumping very

32:22similar to their immediate demand

32:26there.

32:28These are QI. They're just like

32:30snapshots of time. They're they're QI.

32:32So what? Correct. This is

32:35depicting the maximum [cough] the

32:38maximum QI [clears throat] allowed or in

32:41in play at that time period. So like

32:44like on the left that we don't often

32:47operate withdrawing that large of an

32:49amount for long periods of time, but

32:51there are days throughout the year where

32:52we will hit that.

33:02>> We should keep going. Yeah, sure. So, I

33:04can wrap this up now just to say that

33:05the one on the right, the far right bar

33:08chart that we were talking about is

33:09showing the pilot program where we have

33:12the consortium

33:14that uh was still involved. We also had

33:16Scadar Valley Farms, the very small gray

33:19bar. What's not shown in this it's very

33:21again would not really show up is in

33:232026 the department of fish and wildlife

33:27transfer that it's very small related to

33:29those orders of magnet.

33:35So that's that's the over overview of

33:37the water rights pretty pretty crash

33:39course there but I'll turn it over to

33:42George. Yes.

33:46>> Thank you. Good question so far. Um, and

33:50yeah, we're

33:52getting a lot of information out there.

33:54So, I think this this might go directly

33:56to your question line. So,

33:59this is uh something that we produce

34:02internally to gauge how well uh we're

34:07doing as far as the Judy the health of

34:08the Judy reservoir. So, this is um a

34:12chart that spans a year. So, on the

34:14bottom it's calendar year. The amounts

34:17on the sides aren't really that

34:19important, I guess. Uh the red line is

34:21the surface elevation of duty reservoir.

34:24So the reservoir when it's full has 5

34:281/2 months worth of raw water that we

34:30can store and serve our customers. So

34:32it's a really it's a resilient system in

34:34that we can store a lot of raw water and

34:36serve our customers in case of some kind

34:38of emergency or you know uh

34:42environmental issue. So, we track the

34:45reservoir elevation. That's the red

34:47line. We try and keep it as obviously

34:49high as we can. I think that gray bar

34:51just above it is the um the spill level

34:54at Junior Reservoir. The other things

34:56that we track are these two different

34:59colored bars throughout the year. And

35:02so, like Bill said, we get water from

35:04the Culp Mountain streams and we also

35:06get it from the Scadget River.

35:09So the streams are typically running

35:12when it rains when there's snow pack,

35:13right? So we typically get water from

35:15the streams in the fall, winter, spring.

35:18When those dry up, then we get then we

35:21turn our focus to the river and we get

35:23water can get water from the river in

35:25the spring, summer, fall. So there's

35:27this,

35:29you know, you can kind of picture

35:31when there's when there's a spike in the

35:33green. So starting way over at the left,

35:34if you know, you see the grain spiking

35:37up, you know, above 15 million gallons

35:39per day. Now we're using a different

35:40unit. I understand that's like, you

35:42know, two pumps. We turn two pumps on at

35:44the or sorry, that's 50 million gallons

35:47coming from the creeks. The river, the

35:50the water in the creeks was clear. It

35:52was good enough for us to take into Judy

35:54Reservoir. So we took a bunch of water.

35:57Well, maybe it stopped raining that

35:59January and we didn't get any more after

36:02that. So then there's a gap. So it

36:04fluctuates. The amount of water we get

36:06out of the streams fluctuates based on

36:08environmental conditions. So you'll see

36:10us taking water whenever we can. That's

36:13free water coming from the streams. So

36:14we like that water, but we don't get it

36:18consistently. It just whenever it rains

36:20and whenever it's not really turbid, we

36:22try and take it, but it fluctuates

36:24pretty consistently. And then so

36:26following along with the green, you

36:28know, June through September,

36:33there's an instream flow uh limitation

36:35on the streams as well, but we don't

36:36really we can't usually don't get any

36:38water out of the streams in the summer.

36:40And then we do get some in the fall and

36:42winter as well. So you see some green

36:44there. So that's it's not a typical Oh,

36:47this is just in 2022. It could be a

36:49typical year, but it changes every year.

36:52We track how much water we get out of

36:53streams. And in the light tan bars,

36:56that's what we're pumping out of the

36:58river with the Scadget River divergent.

37:01So there's overlap. Um that costs money

37:05to turn those pumps on. Cost a lot of

37:06money. Those are big pumps down on the

37:08river. We turn them on when we need to.

37:12[clears throat]

37:12And we need to because we need to manage

37:14the surface elevation of the reservoir.

37:16We want to keep that reservoir full,

37:19right? As full as we can.

37:22So you can kind of see that tan graph.

37:25It's kind of like there's two like tops

37:28to it. In the spring there's kind of

37:31that's like one pump that's been turned

37:32on. You know, it fluctuates, but it's

37:34usually about one pump. In the summer in

37:3722, we ran, you know, a month or a

37:40couple of months where we turned on and

37:42off one or two pumps. You can see kind

37:44of the upper limit there. So yeah, we

37:46ran all these scenarios. One pump, two

37:48pump, one pump with streams coming in.

37:51It's a combination of all those events

37:54to try and manage the reservoir

37:56elevation. And we did a good job this

37:58year, right? We've the total fluctuation

38:00in the reservoir is not even 10 ft. So

38:03that's good. That's a really good buffer

38:05for us. Good for our customers.

38:08>> So in 2022, did you have the ad

38:10diversions?

38:11>> There was no this is a non-transfer

38:12year. This is just a regular operational

38:14year. And we we present this graph. You

38:18can look at any of our meeting packets.

38:19We presented every meeting to our board

38:22to see where we're at. Where's the

38:23reservoir elevation at? Are we pumping?

38:25Are we not pumping? Are we taking water

38:26out of the streams or not? So, this is

38:29something that we continually manage and

38:31operate and observe because we have to

38:34make a lot of decisions. So, the slides

38:35we're going to get into about all the

38:36decisions that we have to make in order

38:38to manage the reservoir. This is a

38:40really important like the most important

38:43asset that we have is this reservoir. So

38:45managing is very important.

38:49Does that address that question better?

38:52That's good.

38:57Um, Bill mentioned this and it shows up

39:00in that graph I just showed. We have a

39:03lot of variability in our streaming

39:04flow. So we might think in the summer,

39:07well, the reservoir is getting low. Um,

39:10we've only got one or two pumps on,

39:12whatever it may be. But that's okay.

39:15when it turns calendar turns to October,

39:17the streams will start running. It'll

39:18start raining and we'll get more water

39:19into the reservoir. It doesn't always

39:21happen that way. We get a lot of

39:23variability in stream flow. So, we're

39:25not guaranteed to replenish the

39:28reservoir just because it's fall or just

39:30because it's winter. And so, that's why

39:32we have to really manage it during the

39:34year cuz we're not guaranteed. I went

39:36back and looked at data all the way back

39:38to 2012. And between October and

39:40December, it's more likely that the

39:43reservoir will actually decrease in

39:44elevation than increase between October

39:47and December.

39:48So that would tell you that it's it's

39:51not just there's not a cap up in the

39:53stream that's filling our reservoir.

39:54It's more likely to actually go down

39:57after January 1st. You're it's 50/50

40:00whether the reservoir is going to

40:01decrease in elevation.

40:04So that that's just facts, you know, I'm

40:06not making a judgment about it. That's

40:08just what we've observed, which then

40:10again feeds into our decision making

40:12early on. It's hard to be reactive

40:16because when you need water, the

40:19decision to get water has to be made

40:21months earlier, not at that time because

40:23you may not get the water you want. So

40:26that's what this is.

40:31There's a lot of variability in running

40:33that. Mike Fox is back here and he can

40:35talk about that. Um, so to get to

40:37Commissioner Whis's question. So

40:40this is this, it's not the same graph as

40:43I show. It's only the line at the top.

40:45So this is the surface water elevation

40:46of Judy Reservoir during two transfer

40:49years. So you can see what happened

40:52recently.

40:53The blue line is 24 and the red line is

40:5625.

40:58Different things happen in different

40:59years. Not every year is the same.

41:01Sometimes it rains a lot in the winter,

41:03sometimes it doesn't, right? And so you

41:05can't predict. In 24, following the blue

41:08line, we started off the year really

41:10low. And we had to turn on I we might

41:13have had three, four pump stations on,

41:15three pumps on at that time to get the

41:17reservoir level up. So in 24, we worked

41:21hard to raise the level of the reservoir

41:23and then it slowly dropped over the

41:25summer. So that was that was good.

41:28Um the red line is 25

41:34and

41:35so we started off the year a little bit

41:37higher.

41:39U fluctuated a bit in the spring and by

41:42June we got it up to about elevation

41:44460. Wasn't as high as the year prior.

41:48And so then you can see the impact

41:51during a transfer year where we only

41:53have one pump at the river. That was

41:54what we agreed to, right? Bill talked

41:56about that.

41:58To eliminate the title restrictions, we

42:02limited ourselves to one pump instead of

42:04two. That's the impact of one pump. The

42:08red line came [snorts] down. There's a

42:10slight flattening in July last year.

42:12There's a little bit of rain, but you

42:14know, that's that's the slope of a line

42:16when there's only one pump on in the

42:18summer.

42:21Um

42:23oh hanging

42:25there

42:27this is a really rough estimation but um

42:31so looking at 25 specifically just

42:33because it's more dramatic. You can see

42:35the slope of a line with one pump and

42:38slope of a line with two pumps. So

42:40that's something we have to consider.

42:43Like right now we only have one pump on

42:46during a transfer. It's a transfer year.

42:48was one pump. That line's going down.

42:50Might not be the exact same slope cuz it

42:52depends on weather, depends on demand,

42:54system demand, depends on a lot of

42:56factors, but

42:58the point I'm trying to make is that it

43:00goes down a lot steeper with one pump

43:02versus two. And so that's something that

43:04we just have to keep in mind. We did a

43:07really good job this year of getting the

43:10uh reservoir elevation up even high, you

43:13know, higher than we did last year. So

43:14we have more buffer than we had in 25.

43:1725 we didn't quite get it as high as we

43:19wanted to. This year we're doing better.

43:22It's staying up higher.

43:25>> Uh [clears throat]

43:26I have a question.

43:27>> Yeah. Um

43:29I mean I guess this this is the core of

43:32some of the concerns that we've heard

43:34coming out of the eye community

43:35districts I think reflected by this

43:38slide.

43:40It seems to put exact transfers and the

43:43ability to recharge Judy into conflict,

43:46this one pump limitation. Um, and uh,

43:51you know, I understand these title

43:52restrictions were a deal you made and so

43:56is this one pump thing, but I I'd like

43:57to know, you know, you have the right

44:00regardless of drought, regardless of

44:02anything to pump 40.1 CFS at the SRD

44:06Woolly. Correct.

44:08So what additional environmental impact

44:10[clears throat] arises from pumping that

44:12water 10 15 miles downstream the

44:15district's point of diversion it's being

44:17medicated for?

44:19>> I that's not a question I can answer.

44:22>> You you can't answer if there's

44:24additional environmental impact from a

44:27drop downream.

44:28>> No, I I think in in the sense that it

44:31doesn't exist.

44:32>> I I I can't make a judgment on whether

44:35it does or doesn't. We haven't done

44:36there's no studies I haven't looked you

44:38know we haven't done any investigation

44:40into what it does or doesn't do

44:42>> right I [clears throat] mean if you're

44:43withdrawing at the SRD and you have the

44:45right to do it at full 4140.1 CFS and

44:50then instead you draw that 10 15 mi

44:52downstream what additional environmental

44:54impact to the river to the fisheries

44:56resource does that create

44:59>> yeah I'll repeat my answer I don't know

45:01okay

45:01>> in terms of volume bunk it's the same

45:03volume bump

45:04>> correct

45:05>> the impact I I that's not

45:07>> Wouldn't it presumptively be lesser if

45:09the withdrawal is a distance downstream?

45:11I mean, logically [clears throat]

45:12speaking,

45:13>> at least that's not for me to answer.

45:16>> Okay. Thank you. when we move into the

45:20closer exercise, I encourage you to put

45:22these concerns and these potential

45:24benefits even up on the

45:26>> Yeah, like I think that that

45:30is going to be helpful to our board if

45:32it's phrased as like a recommendation or

45:35a concern that we can address cuz yeah,

45:38I I can't answer that question, but if

45:40it's something that as a group and that

45:43we the commission needs to investigate

45:45or look into, then that's something we

45:47can act on. It's I don't have any answer

45:49to that.

45:50>> Well, I mean, do you see my point? It

45:52seems to have inserted a bit of this

45:53agreement seems to have inserted a bit

45:55of a poison pill into the act water

45:57transfers and there was presumably some

45:59additional environmental impact was

46:01being mitigated. Uh and and so I think

46:04that I guess I was just trying to

46:06understand what that is.

46:07>> Yeah, I I wasn't there during the

46:10discussions. This is a the world that we

46:12live in and I don't want to make any

46:13assumptions. Fair. [clears throat]

46:19Yeah.

46:20>> When do you as a manager start to get

46:22nervous? Because you know me as a lay

46:24person, I'm seeing 450 ft of water and

46:27that seems like a lot to me, but I don't

46:29know the system. So, it's actually the

46:32the elevation of the the reservoir. So,

46:34it's not depth of water. It's the actual

46:36elevation. So, that's one clarification.

46:39Um the historical minimum at the

46:43reservoir is about 440 ft. So

46:47there's 5 and 12 months worth of water

46:49and it goes from about 440 ft in

46:51elevation to about 400

46:5465. And so that's the water that we're

46:57dealing with.

46:59>> When when do I get nervous?

47:01>> Yeah,

47:01>> probably around well 455 is when you

47:05really start paying attention. Then 450

47:07would be that point.

47:08>> And then how much does that equate to in

47:11the level of the resal?

47:13>> I think I have a slide. Okay. Well,

47:16>> George, I'm just going to interject that

47:18we do need to I want to make sure we

47:19have time to hear from folks about what

47:21their their hopes and their concerns

47:23are. So, we want to move through the

47:24rest fairly quickly.

47:26>> I think we can move through this.

47:28There's other So, there's quantity

47:30considerations, but there's other water

47:32quality considerations that we have as

47:33well. Um, so getting to your question,

47:36Don, we have concerns about the

47:38reservoir elevation because that buffer

47:40reduces our factor of safety to supply

47:42customers. We also have um we don't want

47:46algae to grow in a reservoir. It can

47:47cause taste and odor issues. So when you

47:50get less water and it's not being mixed

47:54with pumps and it's just stagnant water

47:56drain and you know you can get water

47:58quality issues as well. So we have that

48:00concern. Um these slides are in there. I

48:02don't need to cover this in a lot of

48:04detail. When we're dealing with low

48:06water

48:08levels in the reservoir there are some

48:10causes, right? our pumps can't keep up.

48:13We don't like the quality of the water,

48:15so we don't want to pump it or like in

48:17the case of the fall, sometimes there's

48:19not enough flow from creeks. So, there's

48:21some remedies. Basically, the remedies

48:23say proactively do things which

48:26primarily are pump water into the

48:27reservoir. It's never a bad idea to fill

48:29the reservoir when you can.

48:32Um, so maybe this gets to your question,

48:34D. So, when you get to 450, we've got

48:37about 40 days at peak summer demand. get

48:40to 4:45, you got about 19 days.

48:44>> So, yeah, we get nervously

48:47make me nervous.

48:48>> Top part of that.

48:52>> Um, and then the second part is the

48:55water quality.

48:57And I think some of you can understand

48:58this,

49:00just organic levels in the reservoir. If

49:02we had water from the river, it's got

49:04less organics. That's a good thing. Um,

49:07the water from the river is colder. So

49:10if we can add that that's also good and

49:12it helps promote mixing in the

49:13reservoir. So again just like the

49:15quantity concerns the quality also is

49:19the general consensus is that adding

49:22water from the river is good.

49:27And then this is um something we came up

49:30with. It's meant to be green is good,

49:32red is bad, yellow is, you know, iffy.

49:36And that's kind of our that blue circle

49:39is our ideal pumping window at the SRD,

49:42our best pumping months. We don't like

49:44pumping in the winter. It's red. It

49:46costs a lot more. PSC charges us a lot

49:48of money to pump in the winter. Um, we

49:51get usually get good water from the

49:53river. The SRD pumping window, that's

49:55usually our best water quality.

49:57that other slide I showed earlier,

49:59stream inflows,

50:02they're iffy at the end of the year, but

50:03they're usually better at the beginning

50:04of the year, right? So, you start

50:06overlapping all these things. And that's

50:08kind of our best pumping window, April

50:10through September.

50:12Um, and we tr try to really hit it hard

50:15in April and May. That's usually our the

50:18time when we have at least two pumps

50:21running, if not three, just to get it

50:23topped up for the summer.

50:26Can I ask then just

50:29>> a basic question is that if the summer's

50:32the best pumping window, why are we not

50:34running two pumps in the summer?

50:37>> Yes, this gets back to the

50:40the negotiation that was done to

50:42eliminate the tie restriction. There's

50:44going to be a lot of questions and

50:46[clears throat] concerns about that.

50:47Yes, it's tied to that.

50:51We'd like to run two. Yes.

50:54We'd like to run three.

50:57>> You've got five.

50:59The more the better.

51:02I I think you're going to Everybody's

51:03going to recognize a theme.

51:06>> I have a I have a basic question since

51:08we're asking questions. You uh pump

51:11water into Judy Reservoir, then you

51:13treat it, and then distribute it.

51:15>> Correct. How come you're not able to

51:17eliminate the algae to the treatment? It

51:20it's just increased treatment costs. We

51:22can Yes. And we've had to do that in the

51:24past. We just try and reduce our

51:26treatment costs and our, you know, our

51:28backwash times. We can be we try to be

51:31selective about the water that we take

51:34from the streams and the river. If we

51:36can be selective at the front end and

51:38say, "Well, that's dirty. I don't want

51:39it."

51:39>> Sure.

51:39>> It'll save us on treatment costs.

51:43>> And so, we can keep the al keep the

51:44algae from growing. That's just going to

51:46save us in the long run, too. We can we

51:48can deal with it. Yes.

51:49>> You have a lot of tubity that settles

51:50out in the reservoir.

51:51>> It's a big settling pond. Yeah.

51:53>> And what is the maximum elevation of the

51:55reservoir?

51:56>> 465.

51:58>> Thanks. Yes.

52:05I Okay, now we're ready way over time.

52:07Uh there's a sample agreement which we

52:09can get into if there's other specific

52:11questions later on. This is an agreement

52:13from 2025. Just so you can see the terms

52:15of agreement that we had with district.

52:18This is with 22. So those are in there.

52:23It shows the diversion points um where

52:26we transfer with both districts,

52:30the background information. And then

52:34this is a memo written by Dan Hower from

52:37Geocentech Consultants. um is our water

52:40rights consultant and this basically our

52:45is his evaluation of the regulatory

52:47considerations we need to think about

52:49while we're doing this.

52:51Don't need to get into all the details.

52:53Um time to get into them but uh we're

52:57we're in a we've been doing things well.

52:59We're in a good spot. um there's not any

53:02huge things that we need to worry about

53:04about getting into a whole lot of

53:06there's some questions that he poses and

53:08then answers in there.

53:10Um,

53:12yeah. No, I won't get into this in

53:15detail.

53:18>> Okay. I ask one more question.

53:20>> Yes.

53:20>> I didn't see it in the package, but you

53:22referenced an agreement as it relates to

53:24title restrictions. Can you make that

53:26available to all of us?

53:28>> I can send it. Yeah, it was it was done.

53:30It's part of our meeting packet in our

53:31minutes from it was a meeting in 2024.

53:34>> Okay.

53:34>> Yeah, there's a there's an understanding

53:36there. Okay.

53:37Yeah, we'll go get that email. But who

53:39were the parties today?

53:41>> Us and the swim.

53:48>> Was that George? Was that for 2024 or

53:51was that a long-term continuing? Was

53:52that one year? What was it?

53:54>> It that was a one year with a

53:58verbal commitment to continue it to

54:00subsequent years.

54:05was called

54:07now. No. [clears throat and cough]

54:15>> Okay, that is the sorry for going

54:17quickly at the end here.

54:19>> Okay, I'm going to interject for one

54:20quick moment here. So, I want to make

54:22two quick points as [clears throat] we

54:23start to move over into like hearing

54:25from the stakeholder group. One is that

54:27a lot of this is technical and some of

54:29you are technical and some of you are

54:30not and that's okay. like your questions

54:34are are [clears throat] what we're after

54:36today and your concerns and your

54:38potential benefits. And some of you

54:40might phrase a point in a very technical

54:41way, you might not. That's just fine.

54:45The other point I want to make is the

54:47focus here

54:49is on determining like a more formal

54:51program. There have been emergency

54:53transfers going back to 2015

54:55>> of highless programs for 24 25 states.

54:59there's pressure to like kind of give

55:00some certainty for next year, but we got

55:02to pause and say like are there

55:04questions that need to get addressed so

55:06the commission can design a thoughtful

55:09well-formed program and so anything

55:11there's no decisions that have been

55:13made. George has told us this multiple

55:15times if we kind of prep for this. So

55:17today is a chance to kind of roll it way

55:19back up and look at at what are the

55:21potential benefits of a program. What

55:22are the potential concerns around a

55:24program and then what are the

55:25characteristics that might a program

55:27might might embrace or might have. Um

55:30and so we want to hear from you and

55:32Bethany will kind of set this up. I mean

55:34the commission is going to

55:36be out of

55:38>> one quick question. If this process

55:41takes a while, which I'm guessing it

55:43will, there's a possibility for the 2020

55:46for the pilot program to be extended

55:48into 2027.

55:50>> That's yeah, definitely something we can

55:51consider.

55:54That question makes a lot of sense.

55:56Yeah, there are desires for that longer

55:59evenings coming.

56:02>> All right. Wonderful. Um, I'm going to

56:04introduce our poster exercise. Um, in

56:07the interest of time, wonderful

56:09questions and background information, we

56:10are running a little bit behind schedule

56:12and we want to make sure that we have

56:14time for our discussion and the

56:16intricacies of of what we put on these

56:18posters. So, by 10:30, we want to be

56:21back in our seats starting that

56:22discussion. Um, we are going to ask you

56:26to sort of consolidate the break and

56:28this activity. Please tend to your needs

56:30and also complete this activity.

56:34Um so there are six posters located

56:36around the room uh going from sort of

56:39the highest level which will start our

56:40discussion over here and we'll move

56:42around um and end our discussion over

56:45here. Um you can see the questions up on

56:48the screen. Um so we'll have about 30

56:50minutes which is 5 minutes per question.

56:53You'll hear my chimes in the background

56:54if you need some help timekeeping of

56:56those five minutes. Um, in addition to

56:59these five questions, we have an other

57:01considerations board and we've reserved

57:02time for that as well in the discussion.

57:04So, if you have things that are not on

57:06one of these boards, please feel free to

57:08do the other considerations board as

57:10well. Um, we will at the end of the

57:13activity, Brian and I will facilitate

57:16the discussion about what is on the

57:19posters. Are there any questions?

57:22No. All right. Wonderful. Um, so please

57:26feel free to um, we're going to move

57:28right into the activity, but if you need

57:29to take a break, the restrooms are

57:31around the corner and there are

57:32refreshments up in the fall.

57:33>> Eat some food. Eat some food.

57:35>> There are post-it notes at each of the

57:37stations. You're also welcome to write

57:38on the floor

57:41points up. Feel free to ask questions

57:43too on the board. [clears throat]

57:47>> Thanks. And we'll go ahead and be

57:51>> all right. So, the remainder of our

57:53time, we're kind of going to read out do

57:54a readout on each of the posters. And

57:57we've got Stephanie and I have done a

57:59little bit of clustering just to move

58:00the post-it notes around and be able to

58:02share out some of the themes that we

58:04see.

58:05>> Um, we'll try to do that real time and

58:07represent what we see on the boards and

58:09then we might ask some questions. It's

58:11also a great opportunity for you all to

58:13ask questions. Um timing is we'll have

58:16about 10 minutes or so for each topic

58:19and we want to make sure we leave a few

58:21minutes at the end

58:22>> for George to talk about next step.

58:26>> So are we live online?

58:29>> Yes,

58:29>> we are. Okay, great.

58:31>> So I'm going to start I'll do the first

58:32three. They're kind of related in that

58:34they're fairly general questions. They

58:37they could come up a lot. So, we're

58:39asking about the primary benefits of a

58:42seasonal water program, the primary

58:44concerns around a seasonal water

58:46transfer program, um, and the potential

58:48priority users or uses for the water

58:51drift past. So, I've kind of organized

58:54this from left to right being like more

58:57general to sort of more specific. So,

58:59let me give you a quick readout on this

59:01and then I'll pause and see if there's

59:02any questions or observations. So in

59:05general like a the the potential

59:08benefits of a seasonal water transfer

59:10program it offers a proactive solution

59:13to a problem. Um it would be monitored

59:16and legal access to existing water

59:18rights.

59:20The program makes productive use of

59:22water that's genuinely surplus in a

59:25given season and it creates greater

59:27drought resilience.

59:29So the theme I see there is that it's a

59:32wellthought through intentional program

59:34that makes responsible use of a water

59:36right that's available.

59:39Um using uh getting a bit more specific

59:42um one person has said we should use

59:45this valued water right to directly

59:47support the Scadget County comprehensive

59:49plan goals. And we'll see this as a

59:52theme too when we get into the priority

59:53users is a desire to focus on the the

59:57comprehensive plan. So, I want to put

59:59here with a lot of energy. I'll say it's

1:00:01underlined in two exclamation points.

1:00:03Um, a potential benefit would be

1:00:04economic development. Um, and I'd love I

1:00:07think I might ask that person like

1:00:10generally or specifically economic

1:00:12development. Um, this group of four

1:00:14post-it notes here is about food

1:00:16production and agriculture.

1:00:18So clearly some in the room really want

1:00:21to you know would would focus on

1:00:22benefits to agriculture and I note that

1:00:24it would provide greater predictability.

1:00:28Not a farmer myself but I would think

1:00:30like having predictable access to water

1:00:33would be really important both for

1:00:35agriculture maybe for other users as

1:00:37well. water use and I think this comes

1:00:39up in concern that is in unpredictable

1:00:43is certainly less valuable for folks to

1:00:46meet.

1:00:48So any um questions about what we see

1:00:52here in the observations George I'll

1:00:54kick it off.

1:00:55>> Good [clears throat] the link to the

1:00:57Scanti County um was a comprehensive

1:01:00>> comprehensive plan. Just wondering if

1:01:01somebody could elaborate on that like

1:01:03which part of the plan need what

1:01:05specifically like so I don't understand

1:01:08the comment but

1:01:10>> uh it wasn't our comment but like

1:01:14>> I can I can comment on it. I didn't make

1:01:15a comment.

1:01:16>> Nobody has to own it if they don't

1:01:19>> I wrote it the goals of the plan.

1:01:21>> Okay.

1:01:21>> So there's goals outlined in the

1:01:25>> Okay. So Okay. Well, I can say that uh

1:01:28the Scamp County Comprehensive Plan, I

1:01:30think it don't goes without saying that

1:01:32it um prioritizes the protection,

1:01:36preservation of farming and farmland on

1:01:40the Scadget Delta partly because it's

1:01:42part of our culture, partly because it's

1:01:44a catastrophic flood plan and there you

1:01:46know it's not a good place to build big

1:01:48buildings. Um the comprehensive plan in

1:01:52various places

1:01:54uh at least in one place uh specifically

1:01:58says that one of our objectives one of

1:02:01our policies under a comprehensive plan

1:02:04is to ensure a stable long-term water

1:02:06supply to support agriculture because

1:02:09without a water without a stable

1:02:10long-term water supply we we have

1:02:12agriculture. So uh I would say that is a

1:02:16direct there is a direct linkage there

1:02:18and of course there's the requirement

1:02:20under the law for consistency between

1:02:22PUD's water system plan and the comp

1:02:24plan which is why when you go around and

1:02:26update it you see sign off you know from

1:02:29the juris from all the jurisdictions

1:02:30actually the county particular

1:02:33>> the comp plan specifically calls out

1:02:35agriculture as the dominant factor of

1:02:37scatter county. Okay. All right. I it

1:02:40might be beneficial for us to get that

1:02:42plan as part of our reading materials.

1:02:45Sure, we understand it.

1:02:47>> The comp plan also might put too fine a

1:02:49point on it. It's a state law uh

1:02:51requirement to conserve agricultural

1:02:53lands.

1:02:55>> So, it's not like a scattered county

1:02:56policy. I mean, it it is supported by

1:02:58scattered county policy, but it's a

1:03:00state law policy.

1:03:02>> So, I would take maybe two takeaways

1:03:03from this comment. One is more general.

1:03:05It's like let's have the water uses be

1:03:07aligned with state policy with county

1:03:09policy and planning long range planning

1:03:11or comp plan. It's like a primary sort

1:03:13of localized articulation of that and

1:03:15within that perhaps agriculture is a

1:03:17priority use. Uh but I think

1:03:20commissioners are being encouraged to

1:03:21think about the water use within that

1:03:23like sort of long range planning context

1:03:25and the work that's been done and

1:03:26adopted within Scott County and at the

1:03:28state level.

1:03:30>> Yeah. Dude,

1:03:31>> so I wanted to reflect on the economic

1:03:34development. Yeah, great.

1:03:35>> Tag and fish.

1:03:40>> I think that it's really important to

1:03:43understand, at least from a piscatch

1:03:45perspective, that fish do better in

1:03:50environment where there are farms as

1:03:52opposed to an environment where there's

1:03:54a tremendous amount of buildings, uh,

1:03:58development, things that can cause all

1:04:01types of additives to the streams. that

1:04:04would be harmful to the fish. And so

1:04:07economic development from a scatter

1:04:10perspective that would be beneficial

1:04:11would place an emphasis on both

1:04:13fisheries and on egg because both of

1:04:16those industries create quite a bit of

1:04:18revenue scattered. We don't see them as

1:04:21being in conflict with each other.

1:04:28>> Would anyone else like to expand on the

1:04:30comment on economic development? And

1:04:32then Jenna, I think you put your hand

1:04:34up.

1:04:34>> I had a question about that one

1:04:35actually. So, um, is that economic

1:04:37development that would use untreated

1:04:39water through the seasonal transfer or

1:04:41is that

1:04:43>> I didn't write that, but I have

1:04:44[laughter]

1:04:46>> mayor, please. You don't have to own

1:04:47your post

1:04:50behind it. I guess piggybacking off of

1:04:52of you all um and um the tribe as well,

1:04:56uh the bringing the

1:04:59>> water back into AD that then brings it

1:05:01the produce right back into our our

1:05:04cities um and supporting that. So that's

1:05:07where that really went.

1:05:09>> Okay.

1:05:12>> So it sounds like it's the economic

1:05:13development that's aligned with the

1:05:15existing agricultural focus and the

1:05:17natural systems and the trees that are

1:05:19here.

1:05:20So we don't we don't we're not smoke

1:05:22stacks.

1:05:23>> No. No.

1:05:25>> Okay.

1:05:26>> Is there I think to if I could ask a

1:05:28question I mean I think a bit of the

1:05:30elephant in the room is what I've heard

1:05:32at least is a fear on the part of

1:05:34agriculture that you know that that

1:05:37others will come along and can pay more

1:05:39for raw water.

1:05:40>> Uh I mean that that seems to be the

1:05:42underlying fear. Uh we we we certainly

1:05:45have that's been real right. We had teas

1:05:48uh trying to site it would have been the

1:05:50world's largest bottle bridge called

1:05:52water bottle bridge and they're trying

1:05:54to site an Anacortis

1:05:56uh didn't happen. uh there's a lot of

1:05:57community resistance for those of you

1:05:59who remember it, you know, and there's

1:06:00other things. Data centers use a lot of

1:06:02water, this sort of thing. Not focus on

1:06:04that. But in an effort to kind of

1:06:07separate out, you know, the real from

1:06:09the theoretical, are there any um other

1:06:13users at this point that anybody has

1:06:16talked about or actually considered that

1:06:19would use this untreated water? Are we

1:06:21talking about theoretic future concern?

1:06:23Is there is anything real on the table

1:06:24here?

1:06:26or is it a

1:06:29meress that [clears throat]

1:06:33>> we have not been approached by anybody

1:06:35other than the current program

1:06:36participant?

1:06:40>> Yeah,

1:06:40>> thank you.

1:06:41>> Yeah, I you know I I just editorialized

1:06:45that Mike on it. You know I don't think

1:06:48an industry would want an interruptable

1:06:50supply of water. That's my opinion. U

1:06:53nobody's come to us and asked for it.

1:06:56But to get an interruptible

1:06:59supply of water between May and

1:07:02September, I I don't know if I invest a

1:07:04lot of money into an operation that

1:07:06would do that. Not to say that somebody

1:07:08wouldn't, but I don't think that's a

1:07:10potential participant in this.

1:07:13>> Well, I'm missing something, but I mean,

1:07:15isn't this coming out of your year round

1:07:17continuously available senior water,

1:07:19right? It's only being made available in

1:07:21the summer.

1:07:22>> But but that's a discretionary policy

1:07:24decision by by this entity like there's

1:07:28no legal impediment.

1:07:29>> No, there's none.

1:07:30>> Yeah.

1:07:31>> So theoretically that is possible, but

1:07:33it's not currently policy PD is what

1:07:35you're saying.

1:07:37>> It's not the goals of the program.

1:07:40>> So it sounds like the seasonal extent of

1:07:43the water transfer program could be a

1:07:45policy factor.

1:07:47>> It could change. In other words, at the

1:07:48discretion of this board.

1:07:50>> Correct.

1:07:52Just noting that. And then I am noting

1:07:53on the concern board, right? Primary

1:07:55concerns, there was a concern that this

1:07:57would be um if water is priced that it

1:08:00becomes a competitive market um and it

1:08:02might um sort of exceed the ability of

1:08:05agriculture to participate in that

1:08:07market. Um and also that it's I think

1:08:10there's a comment here that it's sort of

1:08:12yeah it's it's creating a market around

1:08:15a very critical input

1:08:19for for

1:08:21>> I just wanted to make one addition so

1:08:23the the the

1:08:25districts on the consortium the you know

1:08:27the pilot program participants

1:08:30they [clears throat] have water rates so

1:08:32they can pump um and they're authorized

1:08:34to pump and divert water until such time

1:08:36as the rule goes below the threshold.

1:08:38old. So there's a there's an entrylevel

1:08:41uh water rate and and then the transfer

1:08:45goes into into effect when the rule

1:08:48falls below the threshold. And that's a

1:08:50kind of a key part of the pilot program

1:08:51that I'm not sure was made

1:08:53>> entirely clear. So there um you could

1:08:56get a water right that's junior to the

1:08:58flow and exercise that water right which

1:09:02[clears throat] is what the districts

1:09:03do. uh the challenges with the threshold

1:09:06and the junior nature of

1:09:09the water rights,

1:09:11>> right? Just to be clear, they are using

1:09:13interruptible water rights that they

1:09:15have. Correct. Until

1:09:16>> the river gets down to a level,

1:09:18>> they can't use that anymore and then

1:09:20they're using the catch.

1:09:21>> Yep. Yeah. And and the program has been

1:09:24really effective. One of the ways um you

1:09:27know unlike I guess it would be Yakama

1:09:29where you have sort of a curtailment

1:09:31schedule the way it works in the Scadget

1:09:34is that as soon as the river goes below

1:09:35the threshold junior water rides are

1:09:37just completely curtailed and so the PUB

1:09:40can fill in

1:09:42um quite successfully with the metering

1:09:45system that's in place.

1:09:50So we've talked some about the benefits

1:09:52and I think it's starting to surface

1:09:53some of the concerns as well and I think

1:09:55one of those concerns the potential for

1:09:58competition you know for for those

1:10:00limited seasonal rights. So again left

1:10:03to right kind of being more general to

1:10:04more more specific uh concern around

1:10:07what the what the water use rights will

1:10:09be. um uh potentially committing today's

1:10:13surplus in a manner that could restrict

1:10:15tomorrow's residential and economic

1:10:17growth and then availability of water is

1:10:20limited for PUD and aggregate. So in my

1:10:23mind I think I'm saying like I'm tying

1:10:26this to like there's a concern that like

1:10:28use of the transfer may restrict sort of

1:10:30general PUD water use for commercial and

1:10:33residential customers. Is that a fair

1:10:35interpretation of that?

1:10:39That's not how the system works, is it?

1:10:42>> Well, it's only because of the agreement

1:10:44to reduce the water pump if that's the

1:10:46case.

1:10:47>> Right. But as long as they have the

1:10:50water, right, they can put in their

1:10:53pipes and service the community.

1:10:55Correct.

1:10:56>> I think is it more of a theoretical

1:10:57concern than something specific to

1:11:00what's going on now?

1:11:01>> I think it might be phrased as that. Let

1:11:04me ask. Yeah, let me ask just like just

1:11:06in the spirit of like rather than me

1:11:07interpreting it, would this potentially

1:11:09commit today's surplus in a manner that

1:11:11could restrict tomorrow's residential

1:11:13and economic growth?

1:11:19Any thoughts on that?

1:11:24>> Yeah, I don't I don't know how to

1:11:26address that briefly. Um

1:11:30yeah, we we have

1:11:32like Bill covered, you have

1:11:34uninterruptible and interruptable water

1:11:36rights. We're still growing into them at

1:11:39the current time. We have excess rights

1:11:41as our system is still growing. The

1:11:44hopefully we get to fully grow into

1:11:47those water rights. So, um the intent is

1:11:49for us to serve all of our customers now

1:11:52and in the future with the water rights

1:11:53that we have. Um these are temporary and

1:11:57seasonal transfers.

1:12:00Um and I think it's one of the other

1:12:02questions [clears throat]

1:12:03u or it's stated in different documents

1:12:07the amount that can be transferred

1:12:11may not always be the same as we grow

1:12:13into our water right.

1:12:16But you're projecting your current water

1:12:18rights with projected growth in your

1:12:21service area is in the last 40 years or

1:12:24something. Yeah.

1:12:26>> Can I give you an exact number? But yes,

1:12:27we Yes. Pass our time

1:12:32in this problem. [laughter]

1:12:35>> We have

1:12:38like [laughter]

1:12:41>> Who are you talking about?

1:12:44books have a junior right on that time.

1:12:47>> Generally speaking though, that is it

1:12:49does it track the growth projections

1:12:51that inform the comp plan that are

1:12:52coming from the from the state we are

1:12:54operating on. What what's the how is

1:12:56that growth projection drive?

1:12:58>> I'm going to know Mark

1:13:01the growth in the county hasn't been as

1:13:04much or as fast as what I think what was

1:13:07anticipated even 101 15 years ago. So

1:13:09the growth has been slower. Um, so yeah,

1:13:12we're not growing as fast and so we're

1:13:14not growing into that water rate as

1:13:15fast,

1:13:16>> but we are forecasting a growth over the

1:13:19in the future. We have it's not

1:13:24Yeah, it's fairly slow for the 20-year

1:13:26forecast period in a large system, but

1:13:28it's still an upward trend and

1:13:31this water supply is all that would need

1:13:35to be asked for future growth of the

1:13:37community.

1:13:38Okay. So, kind of understanding that

1:13:40envelope, right, of how much their

1:13:42surplus water in a seasonal basis for

1:13:44how long and could it be used for

1:13:47productive uses during that period or at

1:13:49some point do you run out of that

1:13:50surplus? Um, so I think George, you're

1:13:53stressing like it's temporary, it's

1:13:54seasonal, like there it comes with some

1:13:57uncertainty, but there's a desire to

1:13:59create greater certainty yeartoear.

1:14:02Well, I do think it's important to

1:14:04reflect that Ann forest has I think what

1:14:06almost doubled Pud's water right is

1:14:09perfected, right? So PUD is not a

1:14:11community's only by stretch but within

1:14:15the service area.

1:14:17>> Yeah, there's a service area

1:14:18distinction, right? The

1:14:20>> transfers where that we're making are

1:14:22the PUB service area not service.

1:14:26Yeah, it's a great question and and is a

1:14:29a very uh real concern. Uh we've asked

1:14:34for multi-year agreements, but the time

1:14:35frame is still much I think full build

1:14:38out of Stanate County.

1:14:40>> Uh the districts, the consortium

1:14:42definitely trying to work with partners

1:14:44on a longer term secure uh water supply

1:14:47and that includes investing in

1:14:49irrigation wells and working

1:14:51cooperatively. So there there is a

1:14:53longer term goal of securing a for water

1:14:58uh water for egg

1:15:00>> and I I remember when you know when this

1:15:02was coming to a head 15 years ago that

1:15:07at least my recollection I won't speak

1:15:09for myself that this was intended to be

1:15:11a temporary fix until a better solution

1:15:14could be found recognizing that you know

1:15:18someday this water you know at least

1:15:20according to projections

1:15:22As humans, we're remarkably bad at

1:15:24predicting a long-term future, but

1:15:25according to projections, we're going to

1:15:26grow into this up. And so, this was

1:15:30intended all was in the be a temporary

1:15:32solution.

1:15:35I'm going to continue to read out left

1:15:37to right here and then I want to just

1:15:38pause and see if there's other voices

1:15:40that want to join the conversation. And

1:15:42I think these are sort of on the theme.

1:15:43So, a concern about having it go away,

1:15:45right? We begin to like depend on it and

1:15:47then it may go away. Um and also that

1:15:50this is viewed as a solution that then

1:15:52diminishes a focus on conservation.

1:15:58There's a lot of focus I think in the

1:16:00benefits about the use of water and this

1:16:02is like a note just saying like does

1:16:03that ease off the pressure on some

1:16:05conservation. That's an interesting

1:16:06policy question.

1:16:09Um over on the right here we've got some

1:16:11more specific comments. Um I don't agree

1:16:13with restricting pumps at the river.

1:16:15Should be able to use them. So, and then

1:16:18a reflection that um around this the

1:16:21agreement with the Swinmish tribe um

1:16:24it's not shown in the charts and wanting

1:16:26to kind of understand how that affects

1:16:28the water supply.

1:16:32There's also as we noted earlier there's

1:16:34kind of a concern that PD is creating a

1:16:35market for water particularly if we get

1:16:37to cost and I think that's one of the

1:16:39specific questions we'll get to in a

1:16:40moment and that might outstrip the

1:16:43ability of egg and I'd like to say other

1:16:45some users to participate in that in

1:16:48that market and I think some concern for

1:16:50shared earlier questions were concerned

1:16:52about how the community would put a

1:16:54price on this water and maybe we'll get

1:16:56to that in more more detail when we get

1:16:58to that poster.

1:17:01So, let me pause. We've heard from some

1:17:04of you. Are there any other concerns or

1:17:06questions about concerns that folks

1:17:09would want to raise before we move on?

1:17:13>> Can we flesh out the conservation

1:17:15question? I mean, that's an important

1:17:16issue that's come up a lot on this and

1:17:17whoever wrote that clarified maybe.

1:17:19>> Yeah, let me read the post-it note and

1:17:21I'll give folk a moment here. uh concern

1:17:24that it is viewed as the solution when

1:17:27all the player needs all the players

1:17:29need to do their part of conservation.

1:17:35>> I didn't write it but I'll talk from an

1:17:37agriculture standpoint. I know Donald

1:17:39more did quite a bit of study with

1:17:41irrigation systems for agriculture, the

1:17:44big guns, how much evaporates compared

1:17:46to the boom system to do that. And so

1:17:49the farmer's incentive is to use things

1:17:51more efficiently and use less water cuz

1:17:54running a ton longer costs money. So

1:17:56they're looking at all those things. If

1:17:57you look around the valley, there aren't

1:17:59as many big guns. There used to be 10

1:18:0115%

1:18:0530%.

1:18:07So farmers are aware that when they're

1:18:09private beach for use.

1:18:12>> Absolutely. And unfortunately with

1:18:14western water law you're you know

1:18:16they're in this use it or use it or lose

1:18:19it scenario which doesn't incentivize

1:18:22them to conserve. And so I think

1:18:26probably not within this group but in

1:18:27the bigger collective like we need some

1:18:30change for western water law that would

1:18:33encourage more conservation

1:18:35>> maybe electricity rates take care

1:18:47move us ahead.

1:18:50>> So starting to get a bit more specific.

1:18:52This question asks what users or what

1:18:54types of users should get priority in a

1:18:57seasonal water transfer program and why.

1:19:00U

1:19:02permanent public water obligation should

1:19:04factor strongly when considering

1:19:06temporary beneficial use. I think that

1:19:08back on that topic we were talking about

1:19:10like continued growth of of Scatcha

1:19:12County and or the area served by the

1:19:14PUBG.

1:19:16um those that benefit from seasonal

1:19:19water use um and not supplementing high

1:19:21water users all year round.

1:19:26direct out of river uses. Prioritization

1:19:29should be in alignment with the

1:19:31comprehensive plan goals that we heard

1:19:33before and again alignment with

1:19:34comprehensive plan which recognizes that

1:19:37agriculture is a key priority supporting

1:19:40one of the last a economies in Puget

1:19:42Sound and then following that three

1:19:45post-it notes not that we're voting

1:19:47right but like a gets kind of noted as a

1:19:50important consideration.

1:19:54Any

1:19:56questions? I want you what I just read

1:19:58out.

1:20:03This is not a term I'm familiar with.

1:20:04So, I'm just going to ask um when it

1:20:06says direct out of river uses, what does

1:20:09that or maybe that's a question I could

1:20:12ask you?

1:20:13>> I'm interested in the context for that.

1:20:17>> On your map, you showed some of those

1:20:19districts were had their own pumps and

1:20:22were pumping directly out of the river.

1:20:23So,

1:20:24>> oh okay. To focus on them as a

1:20:26recipient.

1:20:27>> Yeah. Okay.

1:20:28>> And so they were not in your system

1:20:30where they were taking directly out of

1:20:32the river because they were downstream

1:20:34of control.

1:20:35>> So somebody that's already doing that

1:20:38>> or be a focus

1:20:40>> or have the ability to move.

1:20:41>> It's difficult to pump four miles six

1:20:43miles away from the roof.

1:20:45>> Well, I don't think we'd be allowed to

1:20:47do that as part of this program. So

1:20:49yeah. Okay.

1:20:54Yeah, I if you look at the river and the

1:20:59potential for people to be able to do

1:21:01that, it's fairly narrow.

1:21:07>> Why are there restrictions on who can

1:21:09accept the water? They have to be people

1:21:11with some degree of existing rights or

1:21:14it be anyone or how does that work? Um,

1:21:17so the memo that I did that I went

1:21:19through really quickly as part of my um,

1:21:22presentation, there's a memo written by

1:21:24Dan Hower that I think addresses that

1:21:26question. And I mean to put Casey on the

1:21:28spot, but there are there are things

1:21:32that we can require to do the transfer,

1:21:34but that it wouldn't necessarily be a

1:21:36regulatory requirement. We could say,

1:21:39"Yes, we want you to have a water

1:21:40right." I I don't think that's something

1:21:43that has to happen, but we could say

1:21:45that as part of our policy. But are

1:21:47there other things like they have to be

1:21:49hydraulically connected to the river if

1:21:52there's some other kind of transfer uh

1:21:55participant? I

1:21:58don't know if Casey has some specific

1:22:00thoughts about that.

1:22:01>> Yeah, just in terms of the technical

1:22:03aspect, we still have to

1:22:07be consistent with the law. So we didn't

1:22:09need it to be the same source of water.

1:22:11So what we've seen with the districts,

1:22:13they already have pumps down river. So

1:22:16we've been able to just transfer those

1:22:18diversions.

1:22:20Um so I think what George was saying,

1:22:23you know, we couldn't do a groundwater

1:22:24source 10 miles away from the river.

1:22:26That would not consider leaving.

1:22:30We ecology do not require or need

1:22:35somebody to already have a water right

1:22:36to do that seasonal transfer as we've

1:22:39done. I think that has just happened. Um

1:22:42districts 15 and 22 do have other water

1:22:46rights. Scadget Valley Farm has other

1:22:49water rights but not for all of their

1:22:51properties. So um they're in a slightly

1:22:54different situation. They're not

1:22:55necessarily shutting off at the instream

1:22:58flow. they may have properties that have

1:23:01no water rights at all that they have

1:23:02learning to irrigate. So, I think it's

1:23:05just been kind of the the situations um

1:23:09the PUB has entered into an agreement

1:23:11with, but it is not a legal requirement.

1:23:15>> Surface water, surface water is a big

1:23:17one.

1:23:18>> Yeah.

1:23:20>> Okay. Okay. So, there's that focus and

1:23:22then I want to reread this post today

1:23:23because I think I didn't give it justice

1:23:25and then I see there's a question as

1:23:26well from the commission but there's an

1:23:29encouragement for the commission to or

1:23:31the policy to focus on users that

1:23:34benefit from seasonal water use.

1:23:37So, within that time window not

1:23:39supplementing high water users all year

1:23:41round. So it's kind of like a more

1:23:44targeted I would say type of use that

1:23:46benefits the app that see

1:23:49on this third theme over here of a um

1:23:52can you go a little bit deeper into sort

1:23:54of what specific a users um we're we're

1:23:57discussing whether it's districts or

1:23:58individual users farms uh when we're

1:24:01thinking about who should get priority

1:24:03this policy

1:24:08>> just from my perspective in this farmer

1:24:12are in the drainage and irrigation

1:24:14district is because of where farmer is

1:24:16located and so I don't see a difference

1:24:18in the drainage and irrigation district

1:24:19from the property owner because they are

1:24:22basically the micro community the same

1:24:30because they're in a district and if the

1:24:32district it will pay to get the water

1:24:35from the district

1:24:41just a little bit about how the

1:24:43districts operate. So the district 15

1:24:45and 22 currently in a pilot program they

1:24:48make the water available to a huge

1:24:51variety of individual land owners. So

1:24:54there's a collective benefit that far

1:24:56exceeds sort of making it available to

1:24:59one individual farm although that's also

1:25:01important. And so part of what the

1:25:04districts do is um distribute the water.

1:25:08So make it available. Not everybody's

1:25:10irrigating every day. I think Don sort

1:25:13of touched on that. Well, a lot of the

1:25:15crops that are grown in those districts,

1:25:18just talking about a fraction of

1:25:19supplemental irrigation that's needed.

1:25:21It's very different than the way Eastern

1:25:22Washington works. And many of the crops

1:25:25grown in those districts

1:25:27um benefit from just water table

1:25:31management. So you could grow hay for

1:25:33example because we have a lot of marine

1:25:35in the system because of the Texas we

1:25:37have to compete the ditch network

1:25:40and water available supplemental

1:25:42irrigation that's required to produce a

1:25:45crop is less. So you're getting a

1:25:47landscape benefit um that far exceeds

1:25:50sort of people with overhead. uh the

1:25:53overhead irrigation is really important

1:25:54when you're talking about high value

1:25:56crops which are essential but they

1:26:00rotate throughout the landscape. So

1:26:03depending on the crop it's anywhere from

1:26:054 to 20 years and so you know

1:26:08prioritizing irrigation districts that

1:26:10have a place of use that's quite

1:26:13extensive provides a lot of flexibility

1:26:15and benefits uh to people in those

1:26:18districts. And then, you know, it's a

1:26:20it's a we're public entities and there's

1:26:23some consistency with working with

1:26:26public entities and public entities

1:26:28um in a way that's different if you're

1:26:31working with private. So, my my general

1:26:34impression is there's enough water um it

1:26:38would be good to get a little bit more

1:26:39to make the system.

1:26:42>> For a little background, we irrigate in

1:26:43acre inches. in eastern Washington home

1:26:46in California that iridate

1:26:49>> you an advantage that I mean that

1:26:51Jenna's articulating is putting in plain

1:26:54language for folks is you know in a lot

1:26:57of places let's say in NKAC it's sort of

1:27:00every man or woman for themselves each

1:27:02piece of property that's playing out

1:27:04there right now we have an advantage in

1:27:07Scag which is these districts and their

1:27:09infrastructure afford a much more uh

1:27:12collective approach to this water

1:27:15problem and how to deal with it. I don't

1:27:16I know we don't think of farmers as a

1:27:18big fans of collectivism but actually

1:27:20instead everybody work together to

1:27:22create this stuff and go about it. So it

1:27:24is one advantage that we have because if

1:27:26that water you provide it with the

1:27:28district it charges you keeps the sponge

1:27:31wet when we del

1:27:34and uh really makes it sense a lot

1:27:36easier to solve this problem otherwise

1:27:38might be

1:27:41I don't know if this was how that

1:27:42question was intended but might have a

1:27:45different twist on it. Um, so there's

1:27:47the consortiums, the the collective,

1:27:51which we have agreements with, we've had

1:27:52them for years. But in this pilot

1:27:55program, we introduced a private farms.

1:27:58>> So maybe the question or if not, I'll

1:28:01just ask it. How do we treat like a

1:28:02private farm versus a consortium? What

1:28:05if another private farm were to come to

1:28:07us? How is that like what's the feedback

1:28:11on that? Sorry.

1:28:13>> Tony's Tony's farm. We have a with with

1:28:17the consortium and the districts we have

1:28:18interals,

1:28:20>> right?

1:28:20>> With him, we have a contract.

1:28:22>> Yeah.

1:28:23>> So, how how do we differentiate or

1:28:26distinguish between priority in terms of

1:28:29consortium and private partners?

1:28:33>> Well, last question for me, George.

1:28:36[laughter]

1:28:37>> I will say that

1:28:39>> I don't want it's not that we want to

1:28:40get rid of Tony. That's not the point.

1:28:41But just you know if theoretically if

1:28:43something were to come up which what's

1:28:45what's the priority? What do you think

1:28:48the priority should be?

1:28:50>> Personally I would say if they're

1:28:52producing food uh high is better.

1:28:56>> No

1:29:00clear

1:29:03a question for discussion.

1:29:04>> It's a [clears throat] question it's a

1:29:05good question for discussion. I think

1:29:07part of what I was understanding the

1:29:09agreement with Tony was that when he was

1:29:11getting curtailed, he was hooking up to

1:29:13the fire hydrant and draining the system

1:29:16and impacting the district.

1:29:18>> And so there are other

1:29:20considerations

1:29:22um and I think we need to talk through

1:29:24that. But um

1:29:26>> when you've got a without further

1:29:29changes, we've got a defined amount of

1:29:31water. And so then it's how do you

1:29:33divide that up, right? So then if

1:29:35there's one extra or

1:29:39somebody in the consortium or or

1:29:42somebody at Scandi farm decides to fire

1:29:45more land and now that land water how do

1:29:49we add people even if it's not new

1:29:52contractor inter

1:29:54within that same pot of water.

1:29:56>> It's a good question. I mean, my general

1:29:57sense is that the demand still far

1:29:59exceeds the supply that's available and

1:30:02how we navigate that um is really

1:30:05important. Um right now you're seeing a

1:30:08lot of lost opportunities rather than

1:30:11>> right

1:30:12>> um you know

1:30:16crops and making decisions is our work

1:30:18and the plan. So it's a good question. I

1:30:21mean I I would like to get to the point

1:30:22where we could have those conversations

1:30:24but I think for today you know getting

1:30:26getting through this discussion

1:30:29and you know

1:30:32our hope is that we establish that a is

1:30:34the priority to use and then we can have

1:30:37additional discussions about how

1:30:39>> split that up is the next step. Yep.

1:30:41>> But I mean all summer we haven't gotten

1:30:44real clear. I mean that a is the

1:30:46priority of use and I think that's my

1:30:48understanding of why we're here today is

1:30:50to set some policy direction. Um if we

1:30:54get to a place where a is determined to

1:30:57be the priority use it's a it's a win

1:30:59right and then we can have a

1:31:01conversation.

1:31:03>> Laura

1:31:04>> I apologize if I missed it. What was the

1:31:07seasonal transfer with WPFW?

1:31:10What would they

1:31:14>> watering? It's it's planting, right?

1:31:17They're establishing a

1:31:19>> so I don't know the whole scope of their

1:31:21project, but they're doing an

1:31:22improvement project in development. They

1:31:26somebody else there might be able to

1:31:27speak to that, but right is for dust

1:31:29control and irrigation. uh the plantings

1:31:32that are related to that project for

1:31:34that environment.

1:31:36>> It's 16 island units project

1:31:39>> 0.05 5 CFS minutes took a pipe that big

1:31:42right

1:31:48>> and it was I think this year and next

1:31:50year and then the project done is to

1:31:52establish vegetation right

1:31:55control for the brought down

1:31:58multiple a few years after that

1:32:01establish

1:32:04>> I'm kind of hearing you know a desire to

1:32:06focus first on sort of a categorical

1:32:08prioritization And within that there's

1:32:09lots of decisions. Don I appreciate you

1:32:12sort of raising the cost the cost of

1:32:15water as an options that is how our

1:32:17society allocates a lot of resources and

1:32:19we're going to come to a topic about

1:32:21like what should the cost of water

1:32:23behind

1:32:27question. Um so is the current water

1:32:30amount fulfilling the need of the

1:32:31districts or if there was more water

1:32:33available would the district's current

1:32:35curtail right and do you exceed the

1:32:37current transfer amount?

1:32:42>> So the district 15 and district 22 have

1:32:45um junior water rights that are higher

1:32:49than what we can transfer under the

1:32:51seasonal. So they can pump up to that

1:32:52limit when we're above the threshold.

1:32:55And when we go below the threshold,

1:32:57they're required to um throttle back on

1:33:00the pumps and meet the QI uh the tick

1:33:03containment project. And so there's a a

1:33:07curtailment built into this seasonal

1:33:08transfer because the water's not

1:33:10available

1:33:15[clears throat]

1:33:15>> with the transfer that's happened. Have

1:33:18that been sufficient or would there be

1:33:19demand for even more?

1:33:22>> Yeah, I mean there's a demand for

1:33:24>> Yeah. Yeah,

1:33:25>> that's what I thought.

1:33:26>> And the other question is where's that

1:33:28water eventually end up? It

1:33:31[clears throat] stays in the river goes

1:33:32out. If it goes through the irrigation

1:33:34system eventually for too much it goes

1:33:36out just

1:33:39what happens to it.

1:33:41>> Yeah. So all of the district diversion

1:33:43points um and and honestly sketch valley

1:33:47farm are below the PUB's diversion

1:33:50points transferring into downstream

1:33:51direction. So the water's bypassing the

1:33:53scadget pumps and staying in the river

1:33:55longer. Uh with the district's favorite

1:33:58water is titly influenced and so the

1:34:01water normally you would say for a

1:34:03certain CFS you have a certain river

1:34:05stage but in a title it might fluctuate

1:34:08as much as a couple feet on the tide

1:34:10cycle. And so um and so then you would

1:34:14be pumping in that area where the stage

1:34:16is not entirely rocket for a second when

1:34:20there's no linear relationship.

1:34:27Good. I was tracking until that point.

1:34:31[laughter]

1:34:34We're going to move on into the next

1:34:36three questions and they're a little bit

1:34:39more specific. So, let me just pause for

1:34:41a moment and say if we talked about

1:34:43benefits, concerns, and potential

1:34:45priority users, does anyone have any

1:34:47sort of new points, not not repeating

1:34:50what we've already heard, but a new

1:34:51point or a new question that you want to

1:34:54raise?

1:34:58>> I think there's one thing people need to

1:35:00realize. Agriculture, they rotate their

1:35:02crops. So, it's not potatoes every year

1:35:04on this piece. They're not spinach,

1:35:06whatever. They rotate it around. So

1:35:09that's why sometimes these crops are

1:35:11different locations. So the transfer is

1:35:13really important. They can still use the

1:35:15water. So most people if you aren't an

1:35:18egg you don't understand that field

1:35:20isn't always corn.

1:35:25Guess I'd like to just add the

1:35:27conservation question was I think Don

1:35:29did a good job of answering it in terms

1:35:31of onfarmm use and you know efficiencies

1:35:36but the conservation of of the voluntary

1:35:39one pump is something that I think that

1:35:41commissioners should try to think about

1:35:44um in terms of making more water

1:35:46available not just for irriators but

1:35:49also for PD operations and start to

1:35:51balance there and if it's um something

1:35:54that you guys could engage in. I think

1:35:57we would definitely be looking to have

1:35:59more water available for a transfer

1:36:02program and it sounds like you guys

1:36:04would be looking to have more water

1:36:05available for operational flexibility

1:36:08into the reservoir.

1:36:13>> Great.

1:36:17>> Yes.

1:36:20All righty. Moving into um our next

1:36:23three questions.

1:36:25Um, next question is about uh the length

1:36:28of the transfer agreement. Um, so there

1:36:30were a few a few themes here. Uh,

1:36:32definitely multi-year was a theme. Um,

1:36:36so uh consider multi-year agreements to

1:36:39provide predictability to add

1:36:41irrigators. Um, the length of the

1:36:44agreements should factor in uh to the

1:36:47Scadget uh county comprehensive plan

1:36:50goals. Um, pairing that comprehensive

1:36:52plan tie in again. um a 3 to 5 year

1:36:55agreement window suggested on this um

1:36:58with annual assessments, determinations

1:37:00and clear language uh that can

1:37:03[clears throat] um that quantity can

1:37:06decline as PD demand grows. So really a

1:37:09comprehensive suggestion there um

1:37:11that'll touch on multiple of these

1:37:13posters. Um

1:37:15and then uh Scadget County's largest ad

1:37:18crop uh is potatoes 11,000 acres. Did

1:37:21not know that. um a three-year crop

1:37:24rotation. Um so aligning the water

1:37:27transfer to three plus years uh would

1:37:30facilitate planning for all parties. So

1:37:32that three to five year window is in

1:37:34this range. Um someone suggested four

1:37:37years to set to the presidential

1:37:39election and then [laughter]

1:37:42um five years

1:37:45uh on the far end to provide more uh

1:37:48stability. Um, so a sort of a three to

1:37:51fiveyear range suggested here among

1:37:54among all of the post-it notes on the

1:37:56board. I'm curious to hear if there are

1:37:58perspectives outside of this range.

1:38:03No. Are there other sort of factors that

1:38:06should be considered sort of in thinking

1:38:08about these multi-year agreements? Um

1:38:14and and the pros what what and the uh

1:38:19benefits that that the multi-year

1:38:21agreement you assume would would allow

1:38:23for for your for your parties.

1:38:29I think the benefit again it's been said

1:38:32but just predictability and crop

1:38:33planning and our ability to better um

1:38:36anticipate what the needs will be. Um I

1:38:39think you know the districts through

1:38:41this trial period have demonstrated

1:38:43accountability and and good uh

1:38:46performance results and again having

1:38:48that that predictability becomes even

1:38:51more important as we look at uh crop

1:38:54rotation the diversity of crops there's

1:38:56a lot of um research and interest from

1:38:58farmers in Scatic County right now to

1:39:00look at other crops high value crops

1:39:02what can we add into rotation but

1:39:04without the u predictability of water it

1:39:08makes those investments extremely

1:39:09challenging.

1:39:12>> Uh so some of the the smaller text up

1:39:14here um just clarifies and I just want

1:39:18to um understand this adds complexity to

1:39:20that planning process but um it because

1:39:24if the transfer agreements uh would be a

1:39:26commitment to work with the PUB over

1:39:28that defined period the water would not

1:39:30necessarily um it it's not a guarantee

1:39:33the water would be available. So, how

1:39:34does that complexity sort of play into

1:39:37the the length of the agreement that

1:39:38would be ideal for you?

1:39:41>> In my opinion, it's the nature of

1:39:43farming. There's every year we're

1:39:44confronted with challenges and we know,

1:39:47you know, farming is inherently uh

1:39:49risktaking. That's just part of the

1:39:51game. And so, that's something that's

1:39:53known, but having, you know, an, you

1:39:56know, eventual um or hopeful uh

1:40:00additional water available, I think, is

1:40:02important. Um, but again, there's always

1:40:04that risk and there's going to be years

1:40:06that uh plans don't work out and we

1:40:09understand that. But, um, having it as

1:40:12something that could be available in

1:40:14other years is important. And again, you

1:40:17know, if if you have one out of three

1:40:20years that that water isn't available,

1:40:22at least there's two years that when you

1:40:24had that higher value crop on those

1:40:26fields that you're able to utilize it.

1:40:30>> Yes.

1:40:31I'm just from a drafting perspective

1:40:34uh a reopener provision that would take

1:40:37into account some of the considerations

1:40:39would provide the certainty that a is

1:40:42talking about and potentially some

1:40:44certainty on the part of the entering

1:40:46resources as well to say we can we can

1:40:50agree to a longer term but it's subject

1:40:52to reopener if these conditions occur.

1:40:55Forgive my ignorance, but I'm gonna ask

1:40:57the question in case others in the room

1:40:58don't know what a reopener provision is.

1:41:01>> It just means that you'll come back the

1:41:03parties all come back to the table and

1:41:04say it's subject to negotiations.

1:41:06>> I see.

1:41:09>> Yes.

1:41:12>> Oh, we haven't talked about

1:41:15like there's the length of the agreement

1:41:17and there's also the quantity and those

1:41:19might have interplay.

1:41:21>> I don't know. We probably haven't

1:41:23reached this but if there's competition

1:41:25we could have say okay each of you

1:41:26income water and that might affect the

1:41:29length where someone's getting all the

1:41:31water that would affect how long that

1:41:33might

1:41:37>> so the the interplay between the amount

1:41:39of water that's being used over a period

1:41:41of time

1:41:42>> and this slide four you have that your

1:41:44graph it reflects you know how much has

1:41:47been authorized so it's 2015 10 cfs

1:41:50looks like it hovers between 10 and 15

1:41:52CFS basically. How much of that is

1:41:55actually used at any instantaneous

1:41:58moment?

1:42:00>> Uh well for instantaneous I think

1:42:03>> well yeah what's how close are you

1:42:04getting to that authorization? uh close

1:42:07on the instantaneous and then I think on

1:42:08the uh seasonal annual it's 300 acre

1:42:11feet per season I think is the agreement

1:42:14and then if you go over that amount you

1:42:16can each district could pay more for the

1:42:19additional volume of water and I think

1:42:22district 15 went over that not sure if

1:42:24district so yeah they're they're

1:42:26definitely using the water and just like

1:42:28PED operations district operations are

1:42:30extremely variable depending on what the

1:42:33patterns and such but yeah the districts

1:42:37both can pump higher than what's

1:42:38allocated

1:42:40um under the current wat

1:42:43terms of an instantaneous um they have

1:42:45the water rates and the pumping capacity

1:42:47already in place um

1:42:52>> yeah yeah

1:42:55>> Jenna how much is lost to evaporation

1:42:56for refugees

1:43:00question

1:43:02depends

1:43:05>> [laughter]

1:43:06>> Uh I don't know with that type of

1:43:08victim. Um a couple other things to

1:43:10think about in terms of uh if these are

1:43:13longer term agreements. There's other

1:43:15things that could be added like capital

1:43:17investment in variable speed drives to

1:43:19allow more pumping flexibility. It's for

1:43:22organizational structures by which you

1:43:25could start to mimic a joint board of

1:43:26control where you could say don't pump

1:43:29today. are going to increase because we

1:43:32need it. You're back on tomorrow. You

1:43:34could there are a lot of things if we

1:43:36have longer agreements in terms of just

1:43:38operations and coordination. They could

1:43:45any other perspectives that haven't been

1:43:48haven't been offered to the group.

1:43:52Can I just mention um I want to clarify

1:43:55one point and just make it clear for

1:43:57everybody who's not been a part of the

1:43:58transfers that

1:44:01from ecologies understanding everybody

1:44:03has been within the quantity quantity

1:44:07for for their seasonal water right so

1:44:09Jenna commented on there was different

1:44:11thresholds with their agreement for

1:44:13payment for the QD that's separate than

1:44:16the legally transferred quantity and so

1:44:19everybody's been doing great within

1:44:20those limits.

1:44:22Um and the other point I just wanted to

1:44:24make comment of just on behalf of the

1:44:27state and probably the QD is that I

1:44:30would expect that there would be some

1:44:31economies of scale of employee work time

1:44:34and going from a one-year seasonal

1:44:38transfer to a multi-year. So, not only

1:44:41does that provide like a a longer

1:44:43planning landscape for the funding

1:44:45community, but that you know, if you're

1:44:48doing it for a three-year period or a

1:44:50fiveyear period and we're able to do

1:44:52those transfers, you're saving, you

1:44:54know, having done it once instead of

1:44:56three times. So, there's some benefit to

1:44:58that as economies and scales working.

1:45:04see a question over here about the sort

1:45:06of the maximum length of time you could

1:45:08see supporting or I don't know if

1:45:11approving is quite the right word um a

1:45:14program like the skill we're looking at

1:45:16a longer term predictability is there an

1:45:18upside

1:45:20>> so to my knowledge we have not done what

1:45:25are so we have a seasonal transfer which

1:45:27is for one season and we think it's

1:45:30going to look longer temporarily

1:45:32transfers. Do you have done those

1:45:34between two to five years?

1:45:41Does

1:45:41>> that answer the question?

1:45:44>> Wonderful. I'm going to move us along to

1:45:45the next one. And I realizing we have

1:45:48other slides that we've not been enough

1:45:51to

1:45:54follow us through uh to our next

1:45:56question which is about the rates. Um so

1:46:00the cost uh what factors should be

1:46:02considered in determining the rates or

1:46:05cost for water users for the program. Uh

1:46:07and there are really two themes with the

1:46:09sticky notes. Um for these uh sort of

1:46:12elements there was uh a theme about um

1:46:17uh this one was actually more complex so

1:46:19I'm going to read it. Um but water is a

1:46:23public asset. maximize revenue while re

1:46:29sorry recovering recovering admin

1:46:31metering and pumping costs. Uh consider

1:46:35uh to some extent the market value um of

1:46:39the asset scarcity and availability. Um

1:46:43and then there's a one that has uh it

1:46:46says agricultural with an arrow up that

1:46:48says highest bidder and I I would love

1:46:51some clarification on that. That sounds

1:46:52like highest bidder is the the

1:46:55suggestion. Um but I'm curious the a

1:46:58arrow up. Um seems a little bit uh

1:47:02contrary to what we heard earlier about

1:47:04some fear around a being outbid. Um so

1:47:07I'm curious if anyone is uh willing to

1:47:10speak up on that.

1:47:11>> Yeah, that's my um so

1:47:13>> I put highest bidder and then I thought

1:47:15oh well then it you know I could get out

1:47:17of bed in that process. So I wanted to

1:47:18make sure that it was silly.

1:47:20>> Okay. Um, you know, for me it just makes

1:47:23sense. It works for eBay and so why

1:47:25could it work for water as well?

1:47:28>> Interesting. Highest speed of the bag

1:47:30producing

1:47:30>> egg only. Yes. And I think it should be

1:47:33focused on food production myself. Um,

1:47:35and just for reference in Scadget County

1:47:38there's a lot of crops that don't get

1:47:39irritated. Um, and so, you know, there's

1:47:44the needs to be focused on high value

1:47:46crops. And so

1:47:49that's why

1:47:51so much verification.

1:47:59[laughter]

1:48:00>> What would you suggest?

1:48:03[clears throat]

1:48:04>> We'll we'll we'll