Dr Ahmed

0:00always felt like it was my

0:02responsibility. It was my problem. It

0:03was something that I need to solve.

0:05>> Just because I have capacity to help,

0:06does that mean I should

0:07>> when he's anxious, she feels anxious

0:10when he can't sleep, she can't sleep.

0:12>> I think that's the greater love, you

0:13know, to be able to tolerate some

0:15difficulty in your child, but you know

0:17that that's in their benefit to grow and

0:19develop and become stronger.

0:20>> Inshment isn't just expected. It's

0:23almost how we measure love.

0:25>> How do you stay connected and together?

0:28We feel ishk towards our sons which

0:30literally translates as passionate love.

0:33The kind of love that you would use to

0:34describe a romantic relationship.

0:36>> Can there be love in the absence of

0:38fusion? And I think the answer to that

0:39is yes.

0:40>> She would handfeed her grown sons in a

0:42room that consisted of their wives and

0:45their children.

0:45>> Is it still loving to care for somebody

0:47and want them to grow in capacity?

0:50>> Welcome Dr. Ahmed to Reflections and

0:52Realizations. I'm so glad you're here.

0:55>> No, happy to be here. Thanks for having

0:56me on. So Ahmed, I want to start from

0:59when I first came and saw you. I came to

1:03Mosley because I wanted some tips and

1:05strategies to help my children be more

1:08emotionally regulated. But you said you

1:11didn't want to see the children. You

1:13wanted to work with me and my husband,

1:16which essentially meant we were back in

1:18therapy again. Tell me, what could you

1:21see that I couldn't see at the time?

1:24>> Yeah, it's one:00 back. Um I think a

1:27couple of things. One is that you were

1:29you know

1:31as as as

1:33um as parents who are educated who you

1:36know had some experience of therapy

1:38yourselves um you know you you were very

1:41psychologically literate I would suppose

1:43or very sort of aware of um many sort of

1:47patterns that you'd already become aware

1:49of in yourselves. Um and so it was for

1:52me I was a bit curious. I wasn't sure

1:54that you were going to be receptive to

1:56it. Um, and but I I I thought there were

2:00some hallmarks there of somebody who's

2:01who's thinking, who's reflective, who's

2:04open-minded, um, you know, who's willing

2:06to learn, who's who wants the best for

2:08her kids, you know, um, and, uh, you

2:11know, has some ideas, but could benefit

2:14from stretching the envelope a little

2:15bit around where where the the current

2:18boundary of thinking was. So for me it

2:20was a bit of an experiment to be honest

2:21and go I'll put this out there you know

2:24as as a as an idea. I've seen it be very

2:26helpful for for other families and other

2:28parents. Um and some people have been

2:32most people have been incredibly

2:33receptive to to it you know once the

2:35initial sort of uh I guess change of

2:39direction is is sort of processed and

2:41and I felt like yeah this is something

2:43worth giving it a go. So, I don't think

2:44it was I wasn't sure. I wasn't 100%

2:47guaranteed. But there were some

2:48indicators for me that you know what?

2:50Let's let's let's let's experiment.

2:52Let's experiment and see how receptive

2:55uh people could be to something like

2:57this.

2:58>> Because when you think of child therapy,

3:00I do envision the child in the seat and

3:02the parents outside

3:04>> and the child does the work and then the

3:06parent is like thinking they're doing

3:08best because they brought their child to

3:10therapy. I never envisioned it the other

3:12way around. Yeah, I think that's that's

3:14it's such a you know very common thing I

3:17think and very natural you know the the

3:20society the sort of general direction of

3:23of mental health treatment and therapy

3:25tends to be there you know and that's

3:26not to to discount that you know the

3:28research on on those sort of child

3:30focused therapies is incredibly strong

3:32um and so it's understandable why people

3:35you know come to this conception that

3:36you know that's that's what therapy is

3:39you know um but you know therapy is a

3:41big word and there many different

3:43versions of it. And I think of I heard I

3:46heard a story once of of John Cle that

3:49John Cle narrated and um it's a it's a

3:51popular story not not uh not not his not

3:54his work but the example of you know

3:57there's a man walking down a down a lane

4:00dark at night one night um you know

4:02street lights are on he's on the foot

4:03path and he comes across a man on the

4:05floor on his hands and knees sort of

4:07scrambling and looking around and um so

4:10you know he's kindhearted and thought

4:11you know I'll help this this man he

4:13seems seems to be in some some sort of

4:15pickle. And so he asks the man, "What

4:16what what's going on?" Um, and so I've

4:19lost my keys. I'm, you know, I'm

4:21desperate for my keys. I need to get

4:22back home. And so the man says, "Okay,

4:23I'll help you." And so they're looking

4:25around for for sort of 5 or 10 minutes

4:27or so. And then the man sort of says,

4:28"We can't find the keys. You know what?

4:31Are you sure you lost them here? You

4:33know, are you sure this is where the

4:34keys were the last time? You remember?"

4:36And and so the the man says very puzzled

4:39Lee says, "No, no, they're not here at

4:41all." you know, and the man's is

4:43astonished, is taken aback. He's like,

4:44"So, why why are we looking here?" Um,

4:48and and then the man says, "Well, well,

4:50this is where the light is. This is

4:51where the street light is." You know, so

4:53where did you lose your keys? Oh, back

4:54in the alley there where there's no

4:55light. So, I think it's it's a very

4:57natural thing to sort of look for, you

5:00know, the the solution and the problem

5:01in the same place or where it's

5:03convenient or where it seems apparent.

5:05Um, but uh yeah, very natural, very

5:08understandable.

5:10It's also switches your way of thinking

5:12as well because when you see a problem

5:15in somebody else and a relationship

5:18perhaps or some a member of the family,

5:20there's this natural assumption that

5:22they're the problem.

5:23>> So, they should change. They need to be

5:25fixed. They need to be helped. It's very

5:28unusual, I would say, to flip it on to

5:31hang on, perhaps I need to do things

5:33differently. Maybe I need to change. So

5:34I think the switch in thinking is not

5:37obvious to most people.

5:39>> No. How did you make the switch? What

5:41what helped you? I'm curious now.

5:45>> Uh I think my culture helped me do that

5:48cuz it's like Yeah. I think I will talk

5:50about that more later on.

5:52>> I think the my the background that I'm

5:54from, we're very quite quick to blame

5:58>> uh ourselves for things that go wrong.

6:00And I think the the in a way because

6:04we're so interconnected and we're so in

6:06tune with each other, there's almost a

6:08case of like I'll give examples

6:10sometimes like if the husband is

6:11struggling in life or not showing up his

6:14as his best self self or maybe he's not

6:16calling his parents, it becomes the

6:19wife's fault. Or if the children are

6:21failing at school, it's the parents

6:23fault. Everything is like somebody

6:25else's fault. Very rarely is it the

6:28individual's problem. it's somebody

6:29else's problem. So, I find Bowen's way,

6:32which I want to talk to you more about,

6:35just so I don't know if I say ahead of

6:38ahead of the time, but very different.

6:41>> I think it is. I think it is. And, you

6:42know, it's it's it isn't about, I guess,

6:45you know, assigning blame, but perhaps

6:47that makes it easier to accept what's

6:48what's on offer. Um, but yeah, it's it's

6:51it's really easy and I think it's very

6:53natural. It's very human. Um, you know,

6:54families do it, societies do it. You

6:56know, we can see it in politics all

6:57around the world. Um particularly now

6:59you know the fingers are just pointed at

7:01at somewhere else you know um it's

7:04difficult to sit with the responsibility

7:06or the or the the you know the emotions

7:09that come with oh maybe I'm part of the

7:13problem you know and so you end up with

7:14this polarization of I blame myself for

7:16everything or I blame everyone else and

7:18there isn't sort of this medium in

7:20between where I can take responsibility

7:22but also expect others to to take their

7:24responsibility and I think that's the

7:25gist of what what the conversation might

7:27start to become about um but yeah I

7:30think it's it's such a common thing

7:31right you see a problem you go well

7:32there's the problem fix it over there

7:34it's very it's a very cause and effect

7:36almost medical model you know type

7:38thinking there's the disease treat the

7:40disease uh you know give the penicellin

7:42give the the antibiotic there's the

7:44problem um and you know that that works

7:46for medicine uh it's just that it's not

7:48it's a bit more complicated in the

7:50psychological realm I think um yeah

7:53>> I I had a previous guest on the podcast

7:55who shared the same that it takes a a

7:57long time for us to realize maybe it

8:00wasn't the friendship, maybe it wasn't

8:01that man that I was dating, maybe it

8:03wasn't current affairs or the world.

8:05Perhaps the common denominator is me in

8:08in this issue, but I think it takes a

8:10long time and a lot of introspection to

8:12get there.

8:13>> Oh, absolutely. Cuz it's complicated

8:15too, right? It's harder work. It's it's

8:17simpler in a way um neurobiologically to

8:20just have one simple answer to a

8:22solution to a problem. Um but to

8:24complicate it takes extra cognitive

8:26resources and that's hard. So it's it's

8:28very understandable why people people

8:30think like that. Yeah.

8:31>> Yeah. So Dr. Ahmed, you work in Mosley

8:34as a child psychologist specializing in

8:37the Bowen family systems theory. So for

8:40somebody who's never heard of Bowen, how

8:42would you explain it?

8:44>> It's a good question. Um it's it's a

8:48somewhat difficult concept sometimes to

8:50get across. Um, but if I was to simplify

8:53it, I think it's it's the idea of

8:56looking. So, I think there's two ways I

8:58would answer that. One is

9:01looking it's a way of looking at a

9:03problem more holistically. It's looking

9:04broader. It's looking more

9:05comprehensively at the different parts

9:07of the puzzle. Um, you know, it's not

9:10just looking at the the the within child

9:13or within person kind of struggles. It's

9:16looking how is all of this

9:17interconnected. You know, think of it

9:19like a um you know, family is is seen as

9:22a unit, an emotional unit. You know,

9:24think of it like a one pot dish. You

9:25know, whatever you put into one part of

9:27the dish is going to affect the rest of

9:28the dish. So, it's it's moving away from

9:31this linear cause and effect and going,

9:33"Okay, everything's connected. All the

9:35relationships are connected. The

9:37symptoms are connected to the

9:38relationships. Um and how do we help,

9:42you know, this family function better?

9:44How do we find the the people most

9:47capable of enacting the most change um

9:50for the family's benefit? Cuz the

9:52child's symptoms are not seen as

9:54anything other than, you know, almost

9:56like referred pain. You know, they're a

9:57signpost to to a broader struggle, you

10:00know, and often it's often the the child

10:02that's the most symptomatic is, you

10:05know, the one who's maybe the most

10:06perceptive or the most sensitive or the

10:08most, you know, emotionally uh kind of

10:10intelligent, you know, so they sort of

10:11attract perhaps. Um, and so it's it's

10:14really zooming out and going, we're not

10:16here to blame the child. We're not here

10:17to blame the parents. We're just looking

10:18at the big picture. you know, let's step

10:21back um and help,

10:24you know, the leaders of the family, I

10:26guess, uh grow in their ability to to

10:29think clearly under pressure, under

10:31relational pressure, under emotional

10:32pressure, maintain that thinking, um you

10:34know, develop some observation skills,

10:36be able to see the reality of the child

10:38in front of them rather than, you know,

10:40the the worry based or the hope based uh

10:42kind of cognitions that might be driving

10:44things. So, I don't know, that's a

10:47simple way to to start thinking about

10:49it. Um, and it's a it's a journey. It's

10:52a journey. It's not something that

10:53happens quickly. It's a slow burn. Um,

10:55it's it's not a quick fix by any means.

10:58Um, and and some parents find that some

11:00families find that really frustrating.

11:01Um, but if they can tolerate it, you

11:04know, um, the outcomes are generally

11:07very interesting in a in a relatively

11:08short amount of time.

11:12>> I agree. I remember in the first session

11:14you shared with me that if I had my

11:16child in that seat for the next um you

11:20know few months how will that child feel

11:22about themselves maybe they will feel

11:24that there's something wrong with them

11:25or they're the problem or they're the

11:27issue and that really resonated with me

11:29because then I went home and I actually

11:31shared with my children that mommy's

11:33going to be going to therapy so that she

11:35learns how to be a better mommy

11:36>> for you guys as opposed to you're the

11:40problem and you need to be fixed And it

11:42was really a switch in mindset that I

11:44think helped me and also helped me pass

11:47that information on to the kids.

11:49>> Yeah. And and I think that's that's a

11:50common story, right? Kids feel scapegoed

11:53or or you know why am I Yeah. And kids

11:56are very sensitive. They're aware of

11:57what's happening in the family perhaps

11:59more than other people are, but they

12:00don't necessarily have the language for

12:01it. You know, they act out in behavior

12:03or they act out in in sort of an

12:04emotional symptom. Um so I think it's

12:06helpful to to take take them as a

12:08signpost. Um, and you know, that's not

12:10to say that there isn't any space for

12:12for a child being in therapy or being

12:14part of the process. Um, there's still

12:16some benefit in that potentially, but

12:18um, yeah, I think that's it's a it's an

12:19interesting I don't remember saying

12:21that, but uh, yeah, I'm glad that

12:23landed.

12:25>> Yeah. So, one of the things that was

12:27really interesting in our sessions is

12:29you talked about differentiation of self

12:31>> and I found that so fascinating because

12:34I connected it with my um personal

12:36experiences where in my family my mom's

12:38registered blind

12:40>> and my nan trained me from a very young

12:42age to look after my mom. So, it almost

12:45felt as if if my mom made a mistake or

12:48she tripped or had a fall, it somehow

12:50felt

12:51>> Yeah. Even though nobody said it, nobody

12:53actually blamed me, but I always felt

12:55like it was my responsibility, was my

12:58problem, it was something that I need to

12:59solve. What does Bowen say about

13:02differentiation of self?

13:04>> Yeah, I think that's what um

13:07what I would say is that that's sort of

13:09the core of of the whole thing, right?

13:10So this is the differentiation of self

13:12is is the goal of the whole therapy. you

13:14know, how do we help um individuals

13:17within the family? You know, reminds me

13:20of of Roger Kipling's if poem almost if

13:23if anyone's interested, you know, that

13:24that sort of lays it out, I think. Um,

13:26you know, this ability to to stay

13:28steady, you know, in the midst of

13:30relational pressure, like I was saying

13:31earlier, you know, pressure from from

13:33parents, from from spouses, from other

13:35family members, from your children even.

13:37How do you keep your head, you know,

13:39while others are losing theirs, you

13:41know, when when the anxiety, when the

13:43emotions, when the when the when the

13:44outrage or the or the worry is sort of

13:46circulating, you know, like a whirlwind,

13:48how do you maintain that? How do you um

13:51you know, stay steady in the midst of

13:53your inward pressure, you know, your own

13:54worries, your own reflections, your own

13:56concerns, your own uh you know, uh

14:00thoughts and and and assumptions and

14:02rules and and these sort of things that

14:04are internal. Um,

14:06and in a way it's it's how do we help

14:08how do we help parents and family

14:10members become more like trees. You

14:12know, think of a tree in the wind. Um,

14:16you know, it's it's steady, you know,

14:18it's got strong roots, the wind blows,

14:20it rains, you know, there's a blizzard,

14:22you know, the tree will bend a bit, you

14:24know, but it will stay steady, you know.

14:26Um, so how that's that I guess that's

14:29the simplest way that I could say

14:30keeping keeping your thinking online in

14:33the midst of emotional or relational

14:35pressure internal or external

14:38>> and not letting it like connect to

14:40whatever's going on outside, not letting

14:42it affect how you show up.

14:44>> Yeah.

14:45>> Especially to parenting. Yeah.

14:46>> You know, not let it drive you. I think

14:47it it's going to affect you inevitably.

14:49You know, you're still a human and the

14:50emotions should still be some guide. You

14:52know, they're they're they're a

14:53communication form that your body's

14:54trying to tell you something. Um but

14:56they shouldn't be the guide you know

14:58they shouldn't be the the the driver you

15:00know it's how do I consider the emotions

15:02how do I con consider the relationship

15:04how do I consider my willingness to be

15:06or my values around you know how I want

15:08to connect or how I want to be and

15:10maintaining that in the midst of

15:12pressure um across all of that and

15:15that's that's a skill to learn and it

15:17takes a lot of lot of work but that's

15:20that's the gist of it and I think you

15:21know the families families are are a

15:24combination of sort of a a togetherness

15:26falls you know and and I think we may

15:28get to this when we start talking about

15:29inshment a bit more but um you know it's

15:32that balance between how can I be

15:33together with the family but also a

15:35level of separateness you know so

15:38there's a an example sort of a funny

15:42story of of like hedgehogs um you know

15:45think of think of a a family of

15:46hedgehogs almost you know in a in a

15:48blustery night you know it's it's

15:50blizzard snowing it's cold you know in

15:53the middle of of a UK hair winter or

15:55something like that. Um, and you know

15:58this this bunch of hedgehogs, they've

15:59got a problem. They got a problem. They

16:00need to they need to survive the night.

16:01And so, you know, they they sort of

16:02huddle together for warmth and realize,

16:04you know, that's that's going to help

16:05us. But then they get too close and then

16:07they prick each other with their with

16:08their spines, you know. So, they sort of

16:10recoil and go back outwards. And then

16:12now they're too far away and they're

16:13getting cold again. So, they sort of

16:14come back together again and they they

16:16get spiked again and then they go

16:18further but not as far as before. And so

16:20it's this process of eventually finding

16:21some

16:23dis appropriate distance where you don't

16:25get pricricked but you know still

16:28connected and the warmth and and the

16:29sort of the resources of the family can

16:31still be within your orbit. So I don't

16:33know that's that's my way of thinking of

16:35it. Sometimes

16:36>> it it does make sense um the idea of the

16:39importance of togetherness but also

16:41being separate as well. But I can also

16:43see how this gets quite blurred. Like my

16:45sister for example, she's someone who's

16:47very attuned to the needs of her

16:4912-year-old son. So she often says that

16:52when he's anxious, she feels anxious

16:54when he can't sleep, she can't sleep.

16:56She even says when he has a tummy ache

16:59or feels nauseous because of his

17:00anxiety, she physically feels the same

17:04symptoms. So I have to ask, is that a

17:06mother's love or would Bowen disagree?

17:10>> Oh, it's a it's a it's a big question. I

17:12I think love is there. Um, but I think

17:16it's it's got something else going along

17:18with it is what I would say, you know.

17:20So, it's it's there's there's a what

17:22Bowen would call sort of an emotional

17:24fusion. You know, there's so much

17:25sensitivity and all families are

17:26sensitive to each other. It's not it's

17:27not good or bad. It's not right or

17:29wrong. Um, but it's it's about being

17:31aware of that and going, okay, is my

17:33response to my son's anxiety guided by

17:37my own anxiety that I'm feeling from him

17:39or is it, you know, can I sort of

17:41consider that but have something else

17:43direct how I interact. So that that's

17:45that would that would be an example of

17:46of fusion or inshment, you know, in

17:48other models um that you feel I feel

17:51what you feel, you know, and you feel

17:52what I feel and there isn't sort of this

17:55boundary around where I end and you

17:57start.

17:58um you know and so this responsibility

18:01that that mothers feel and and fathers

18:03too you know um fathers too around what

18:07you're feeling I have to do something

18:08about that I'm feeling it and that's me

18:11being loving I think it's being

18:12sensitive um and perhaps it is perhaps

18:15it is a part of love I don't know um but

18:17there's there's fusion along with that

18:19you know so is it possible to I think

18:20the the question that comes to my mind

18:22is can there be love in the absence of

18:26fusion and I think the answer to that is

18:28Yeah,

18:29>> that's what I want to know. Like

18:30>> where does what's love and what's in

18:32meshment and where is it right and where

18:35does it go too far? Like I struggle to

18:37see the difference.

18:38>> Yeah.

18:41Well, share some thoughts. What where

18:42where have you been on that journey

18:44around trying to figure that out?

18:46Well, just even like for example in it's

18:48an interesting one like in this culture

18:50in many cultures around the world

18:52parents will address their children as

18:54ya mama which means oh my mother which

18:57is um linguistically can almost

19:00translate as you are me and I am you and

19:03I know I know Ruby would love this but

19:07what's to be said about is this love or

19:09is this in meshment? Yeah.

19:12Well, yeah, it's it's that's a it's a

19:15big question, I think. You know, how do

19:16you define love? Um, and what is love,

19:18you know, and I think every culture has

19:19has its own version of that, you know,

19:21is love

19:23um sacrificing yourself for for the

19:25other, you know, is that a demonstration

19:27of love, you know? Um

19:30this this sort of sensitivity of feeling

19:32everything that the child feels, is that

19:33love, you know? Is it I'm with you

19:36wherever you are, you know, and I'm with

19:38you in every and I don't know, maybe

19:40that's not a helpful way to look at it

19:42or or not a productive way, but you

19:44know, I think parents always loving um

19:46but it's it's how that is manifested and

19:49and what other ideas need to be part of

19:51that because it's not a child doesn't

19:52just grow up from love. You know, they

19:54don't develop into adults just by being

19:57loved. That's a necessary component, but

20:00they also need to develop independence.

20:01They also need to be able to be capable

20:02and competent and um so there are other

20:05parts of the child's needs that are you

20:09know need to be there and so

20:11you know that the concept of kind versus

20:14nice I think comes into it you know so

20:17if I'm being

20:19nice because I'm you under the guise of

20:22sort of sacrifice or love or you know

20:24whatever you want to use you know how

20:26does that manifest how does that

20:27operationalize in your dayto-day with

20:29with the child you know if you're if

20:30you're being nice. And let's say, you

20:32know, the child is is anxious, like that

20:34example with with your sister, you know,

20:35and and she's trying to rescue him and

20:38save him from his emotions and make him

20:39feel better. And okay, but we also have

20:43to think, what are the consequences of

20:44that? What is that doing to the child?

20:46It helps him in the in the in the

20:48minute. Sure, that's great. Okay.

20:51But what is it doing for his resilience?

20:52What is it doing for his capacity to

20:54grow in his ability to manage his

20:56emotions? What's going to happen if

20:57mom's no longer there? you know um life

21:01happens mothers pass away you know so

21:04the stories I have are are numerous

21:07around

21:09and and they're extreme and they're life

21:10and death you know these are not sort of

21:12small effects the these are fatal

21:14effects I I remember one one family I

21:16had many years ago back in Australia you

21:19know the mother was you know she was a

21:21lovely mom you know um by all accounts I

21:23never met her but she passed away and

21:25she was always the one you know whenever

21:28her son was was anxious, scared, sad,

21:31angry. She was the regulator. She was

21:33the one who would go in and help him

21:34calm down and was with him through every

21:37difficulty at school. And um and so I I

21:41might spend a bit of time on this

21:42example because I think it hopefully

21:45gets somewhere in the conversation. So

21:46let me know if it's if it's helpful. Um

21:49and then we had,

21:52you know, the father and and and a

21:54daughter. And the mother did everything

21:56for everyone at home. You know, by all

21:58accounts from everyone, everything

21:59everyone said, she was so loving, you

22:01know, she was so caring. She was

22:03dedicated. She was, you know, an

22:06absolute poster mom, you know, in every

22:08sense. She did the cooking and the

22:09cleaning and the washing and the caring

22:11and the and the compassion and the love

22:12and the nurturing and, you know,

22:14everything that could feasibly be done.

22:17She passed away from a sudden illness at

22:18a very young age. You know, she had a

22:2016-year-old and and a 17-year-old, I

22:22think, or 18year-old. Um,

22:26and so this child, this 16-year-old who

22:28was who was the one who came to me, he

22:29went from being, you know, top student

22:32at a at a very good school to stopping

22:35going to school, becoming a recluse,

22:37depressed in his room for about a year

22:40and a half. Didn't leave his room

22:42essentially. No one in that house could

22:43cook or clean. No one could maintain the

22:45house. No one had domestic skills. Um, I

22:48visited the house myself. It was

22:49atrocious. You know, it was it was

22:51shocking the the the squalor they were

22:53living in. you know, there's cat poop

22:54everywhere. Uh, you know, they didn't

22:55know how to clean. So, what what I'm

22:57getting at this is that, you know, mom's

23:00love

23:03was also, I don't want to use a

23:05contaminated, but, you know, it was it

23:07had so much fusion with it, too. And as

23:09a result, three other members of the

23:11family completely collapsed when she

23:12left the scene, you know. Uh and so what

23:16is that what is that doing to build

23:17other people's capacity to survive life?

23:20You know, is it building a dependency?

23:23Is that love? You know, um I don't know

23:26if you help somebody in the minute, but

23:27then that's to the detriment of their,

23:30you know, 21-year-old self, you know,

23:32the person that that 20 21-year-old who

23:34never develops an ability to regulate

23:36their emotions, who never learns how to

23:38manage themselves in the absence of mom.

23:40What happens when that person goes into

23:42a relationship with someone else? you

23:44know, then then that his wife is stuck

23:46with that role, you know, and then that

23:48has its own problems in the marriage and

23:49and the relationship and the kids and

23:51and you know, so there there's a there's

23:54a real big questions I think around what

23:57what does it mean to love and is love

23:59the only dimension with which we're

24:00looking at things or you know, can it

24:02still be loving? Is it still loving to

24:03care for somebody and want them to grow

24:05in capacity? You know, and my answer to

24:07that would be yes. I think that's the

24:10greater love, you know, to to be able to

24:12tolerate some difficulty in your child,

24:15but you know that that's in their

24:16benefit to grow and develop and become

24:18stronger and more courageous and more

24:20capable and, you know, so

24:24I don't know. That's that's how I'm

24:26thinking about it that love is is not

24:27the one dimension that I think there's

24:29other facets to this that need to be

24:31considered. Um, does that make sense? I

24:33don't know.

24:34>> Totally. And when you're speaking, I'm

24:36thinking of my family as well. And I saw

24:38a lot of this mother son dynamic growing

24:40up. So my nan was one of those um

24:43individuals as well who um I remember

24:46she would handfeed her grown sons in a

24:49room that consisted of their wives and

24:51their children. And looking back it was

24:54quite bizarre. But it wasn't unusual

24:57though. And it also wasn't unusual from

24:59for women from that community to say

25:01that we feel ishk towards our sons which

25:04literally translates as passionate love.

25:06The kind of love that you would use to

25:08describe a romantic relationship.

25:10>> And I think like you mentioned as well

25:12when that individual passes away there

25:15is such a loss that can never be

25:17replaced by anyone else because the wife

25:20is never going to take on that role. And

25:21it does lead to frictions in the

25:23relationship because they can never be

25:24mom because they're not mom. And when

25:26they do act like mom, then there's

25:28resentment because you don't want your

25:29wife to be mom. So it's so

25:32>> messy in the long term, but who thinks

25:34that far ahead?

25:35>> Well, yeah. And I think that's that's

25:36the invitation here, you know, is to

25:38think about the big picture, you know,

25:39that this isn't just about now. is, you

25:41know, and and yeah, it's got real real

25:44effects of of seeing, you know,

25:47adults or or very old, you know,

25:51children being so dependent, you know,

25:54emotionally, physically. Um, you know,

25:57there was another story I heard from uh

25:59from um Gaba Mate around, you know,

26:03there was there was a a physician. I

26:05think he was a doctor. He's talking

26:06about the story of, you know, he he's an

26:08adult. He's got three kids. He's

26:10married, you know, he's got a wife. Um,

26:12but he was so, you know, fused with his

26:15mom that he would every day have dinner

26:18with her and then have a second dinner

26:19with his m with his wife because he

26:21couldn't disappoint his mom and couldn't

26:22disappoint his wife. So he spent his

26:24whole life never disappointing and he

26:27died you know from a from a quite a you

26:30know severe illness. Um and so this

26:33fatalistic the some some of these

26:35beliefs can become fatalistic you know

26:36around

26:39so anyway yeah there there's there's a

26:41lot in this around this fusion and you

26:43know this conflation of fusion and love

26:45and yeah

26:47>> I'm laughing because this son who would

26:49have dinner with his mother and then

26:51later his wife that's a good son in my

26:54culture that's a very good obedient son

26:57so that I don't hear the red flags here

26:59which is

27:01which is amazing

27:02>> which is interesting how much we yeah

27:05>> and and maybe it works in certain

27:06cultures. So again this is not about

27:07saying this is good or bad you know but

27:09it's about saying that if this gets

27:10stuck if this becomes you know out of

27:14awareness and you know it can be done

27:16deliberately that's fine you know but

27:17it's it's choice driven it's it's not uh

27:20not something else driven you know

27:21anxiety or or fear of of something else

27:24or dependency driven you know it's very

27:26deliberate and I think that's yeah and I

27:28think that's very different

27:29>> um so this is not about saying certain

27:32cultures are right or wrong or good or

27:34bad you know and that that might work in

27:35a certain culture and that's fine you

27:36know, um, but it was just an example of

27:39like

27:41that's how far it can go sometimes. You

27:43know, you can't disappoint anyone and

27:45how will you go in life if you can't

27:46ever disappoint anyone, you know, that

27:48that's that's going to be a a very

27:52uh that's going to hold you back a lot,

27:54you know, in work with your kids when

27:56you need to parent. Um, cuz then you

27:58can't disappoint your kids either. And

28:00times it's important to disappoint your

28:02kids, you know, that's healthy to

28:04frustrate them and and uh but yeah.

28:07Yeah. It's it's it's a tricky one. Yeah,

28:09>> it is. It's interesting you say that

28:11because Shivas and I we often talk about

28:14how

28:15>> we feel sometimes in our childhood there

28:17were needs that weren't met like perhaps

28:19every parents evening wasn't attended or

28:21every incident of bullying wasn't um

28:23addressed. So here we are trying to

28:26overcompensate and make sure we're there

28:29for everything. We're present for

28:30everything and if they get stressed out

28:32they we are trying to fix everything but

28:36are we doing right by them?

28:40>> It's a question right and then the fact

28:41that I think that you're asking that

28:42question is is is

28:45um is where it's at. It's like are we

28:47just you know there those families that

28:50you know will copy what the previous

28:51generation has done you know verbatim

28:54you know this is what my parents did

28:55this is what I'm doing this is what

28:56worked you know um and maybe that's

28:58maybe that works you know um and then

29:01others go to the opposite extreme of you

29:03know overcompensating like you said um

29:05and so I think the the idea you know at

29:08least from the Bowen lens would be

29:11you know learn about the

29:11multigenerational impacts learn about

29:13what your family did there'll be

29:15something good in that um but how do you

29:18see the reality of what you want to do

29:19as parents? You know, how do you define

29:21your self? You know, do you want to be

29:22the parents that are there for

29:24everything? Okay, that's great. There'll

29:26be pros to that and cons to that, you

29:28know, and thinking through that. What

29:30does that do for the child's

29:31development? What does it do for their

29:33capacity to feel independent? What does

29:34it, you know, so the child's needs are

29:36there? Sure. How do we attend to them in

29:38an appropriate way, in a responsible way

29:40that also balances because they have

29:42other needs too, right? they have a need

29:44to to tolerate frustration and go

29:47through disappointment. That's also a

29:48need. Um so it's it's about thinking

29:50these things through you know it's you

29:52can't you can't take last year's maths

29:53exam and just copy the answers you know

29:55or or um yeah so you have to think these

29:58things through.

29:59>> Yeah. It's it's what you said as well in

30:02one of our sessions about the importance

30:03of sitting in discomfort

30:06>> and and how hard that is when you see

30:09your child in distress and everything

30:11inside you is like I can fix this. And I

30:13use the example as well that when my son

30:15gets quite stressed out about his say

30:17maths homework. I have the capacity to

30:20troubleshoot. I can ask AI. I can phone

30:23my sister who's a math teacher. I have

30:25resources that my parents never had. So

30:28if I can help him, why wouldn't I?

30:32>> Yeah. And the question is, what does

30:33your helping do for him, you know, or or

30:36at least the jumping in to save him?

30:37What does that do for him? You know,

30:39what what effect is it having on him?

30:41Yes, it helps him now, but what's it

30:43doing for his ability to to think and

30:45problem solve and navigate the

30:48challenge, you know, because one day

30:51you're not going to be there, you know?

30:52So, what are you preparing him for, you

30:54know? And I think that's that's part of

30:56the thinking, you know, like, okay, yes,

30:58I can help.

30:59>> Okay, but should I help?

31:02>> You know, just because I have capacity

31:03to help, does that mean I I should?

31:05Maybe in certain circumstances,

31:07absolutely. Yeah, I should help. Um but

31:11again it's it's being cognizant of you

31:12know this differentiation of self. Part

31:14of it is restraint and going yes I can

31:16help but am I helping indiscriminately

31:18because I can and I want to and it's

31:19easy and it makes me feel good or am I

31:22helping because I can strategically

31:26see how my helping is going to serve a

31:28longerterm project. So I think that's

31:31the does that make sense? I don't know

31:33if that's a bit wordy.

31:33>> It does.

31:35And also but I have to ask how much of

31:37Bowen is rooted in sitting in discomfort

31:39as well because everything about modern

31:42life is about removing discomforts even

31:44on an individual level because

31:45everything is fast easy we don't like to

31:48wait

31:48>> we don't like to get bored so we've got

31:51everything in modern life that removes

31:52discomfort and here's Bowen saying

31:55discomfort the best thing you can do for

31:58your child

31:58>> it's like completely counter

32:00counterintuitive right like this is

32:02flowing flowing upstream Right. Um yeah,

32:06I mean it's not just Bowen that says

32:08that though. So if that's that's

32:11helpful. Um you know the the literature

32:14on this around you know is comes from

32:16from all aspects. You know Bowen is a

32:18psychiatrist coming from psych

32:19psychiatry psychology is very very big

32:22on on that you know now from a

32:24philosophical point of view from a

32:26neuroscience point of view from um from

32:29you know

32:31from from from many different sort of

32:33fields. sociology. Um, it's recognized

32:36that the society is going towards a very

32:39immediate gratification type world. Um,

32:43and that's that's the world that our

32:44kids are in, right? They're inhabiting

32:45that now. You know, screens, the AI, the

32:48the the instant deliveries, you know,

32:50the the McDonald's, the drive-through

32:51life sort of thing. It's like, yeah, but

32:55is that is that what we need? Is that

32:58what's helpful for us? Don't know. It's

33:01not looking like that.

33:04No, it's really is hard. But I can see

33:07how societyy's trying in its own way to

33:10like plug those gaps. Like I look at

33:11some of the things that my kids play

33:12with. There's fidget spinners, there's

33:14squishies, they'll talk about the

33:16mindfulness program that's happening in

33:18school and um they know what breathing

33:20exercises are. So I do feel there's a

33:22conversation around emotional regulation

33:25that wasn't had when I was growing up.

33:27So something has changed, right?

33:29>> Oh, absolutely. I think the awareness is

33:31certainly there that, you know, that

33:32there is something called emotion

33:34regulation. You know, I think that that

33:35was absent before, you know, that you

33:37have emotions and they're worth some

33:38attention. They're worth some time and

33:40they're worth some learning about and

33:41understanding and and I think that's

33:43fabulous to see. You know, no one no one

33:45could say that that's necessarily a bad

33:47thing. Um but uh yeah, it's it's it's

33:51important that you know it's it's how

33:54could you say you know the the process

33:57of of learning these you know they're

34:00they're more character traits you know

34:01patience and and frustrating frustration

34:04tolerance and perseverance and

34:06forbearance and you know and and that

34:08that's

34:10that's built in a in a in a different

34:13way than just you know a mindfulness

34:16skill or or you you know, emotion

34:18regulation skill per se, like breathing,

34:20things like that's a great start. I'm

34:22not, you know, bashing any of that. But

34:24I think that there's a bit more to the

34:26story. Um, that's my thinking.

34:30>> I I agree with you, but I do have to ask

34:32you in your professional opinion,

34:34>> to what extent is a child's ability to

34:38emotionally regulate themselves or not a

34:41reflection of their parents or

34:43caregivers ability to self-regulate? Oh,

34:46I think I think the research on that

34:48would be quite clear that it's, you

34:50know, so I'll step out of my

34:52professional opinion and give the

34:53research opinion which I think is more

34:54substantial. Um, that's

34:57very replicated across decades of

34:59research from from, you know, wherever

35:01you look in in the literature. Um, the

35:03the the the child's ability to regulate

35:06is is linked to the parents ability to

35:08regulate themselves, you So, if you have

35:10a parent who's, you know, had a family

35:13just yesterday, you know, the father was

35:15like

35:16in in a in a in a sort of a laughing

35:18way, but he was like, "Yeah, the

35:195-year-old is like you, you know, you

35:21flip your lid and she flips her lid.

35:23What's the difference?" You know,

35:25um, so yeah, it's linked, you know,

35:27we're so, again, going back to Bowen and

35:29this idea of family systems and we're

35:31all sensitive to each other. We're all

35:33learning from each other. We're all

35:34experiencing from each other. you know,

35:36the relationship I have with you, you

35:38know, uh the the the relationship that

35:42um the child has with their mom, it's

35:44within that that they're learning how to

35:46regulate, you know, so emotion

35:48regulation is not this sort of thing in

35:49a vacuum that the child learns, you

35:51know, it's it's it's a very dynamic

35:54interactionbased experience. you know, I

35:56say something that is upsetting and then

35:58mom reacts. I learn from that reaction

36:01how I should have my reaction and

36:03there's sort of this feedback loop. And

36:04this is how this is the fundamental of

36:06how emotion regulation is is built. So a

36:10calm parent is going to be a much more

36:12effective

36:14um I guess presence than a than a

36:17reactive

36:19um you know angry um sort of response.

36:22Um, but the the goal isn't to always the

36:25goal isn't co-re co-regulation. Co-

36:28co-regulation is important, but at some

36:30point we want to help the child

36:31self-regulate. Again, going back down to

36:33that fusion and enshment um I think it

36:36can become,

36:38how do you say um

36:42a u

36:44an example of fusion where the where the

36:46mothers or the father's job then becomes

36:48to regulate the child. And that's it's a

36:51little bit of a nuance that Bowen would,

36:53you know, talk about a little bit

36:54differently. It's like, no, you you be

36:55calm, you be regulated yourself, but the

36:58focus is not on trying to fix the child

37:00again, you know, but as you steady, the

37:03child will steady as a byproduct of

37:04that.

37:05>> Um, sorry, I started rambling there. Is

37:07that making sense?

37:09>> No, it does make sense because again,

37:10I'm thinking of real life examples of

37:12like if my child is watching me when I'm

37:14driving and somebody cuts me off and

37:15they can hear me, I don't know, lose it

37:17and swear or whatever. What message is

37:19that giving to them that how do you

37:21behave in these circumstances and

37:22situations because they watch everything

37:25course

37:25>> and I often even say as a joke like I

37:27can hear my voice in my daughter I can

37:30hear the comments she makes or when she

37:32says things like we can they really are

37:34our mirrors so they are learning from us

37:37so again when we come with a child and

37:39saying the child needs to regulate I

37:42suppose the bigger question is do you

37:43know how to regulate

37:45>> and

37:45>> I don't think we were taught either so

37:47are passing on.

37:49>> Well, exactly. You know, and it's so

37:50common, you know, that the parents will

37:51come in and they list the list of

37:53symptoms. You know, the child is acting

37:55like this and this and this and doing

37:56this and feeling this and big tantrums

37:58and my first question is always, okay, I

38:00want to hear all that. Sure. And how do

38:03you respond?

38:05>> You know, and often it's there's a very

38:06reactive response. Um, so yes, there's

38:08there's a modeling aspect as well.

38:10They're learning from what they observe.

38:11You know, kids are imitative by nature.

38:12We know that, you know, so they're just

38:14copying. Um so yeah it's it's really

38:18important I think yeah

38:19>> and I think even emotional regulation

38:21aside if I think wider and I I'm only

38:24speaking anecdotally but I sometimes see

38:27that parents who are anxious have

38:29children who are anxious even parents

38:31who might have say a mother might have

38:33some might have OCD she will pass on

38:36some OCD tendencies to her child or

38:39again coming down to the emotional

38:41regulation part what does Bowen say

38:43about this transmission that takes takes

38:45place across the generations

38:48>> a lot. So this is another key part of of

38:50the of the theory you know that there is

38:52a multigenerational

38:54process that is happening of

38:55transmission of not just from the mother

38:57but from you know the mother's mother.

38:59You know you could track this two or

39:01three generations up and you'll see um

39:04how a lot of that is is transmitted. You

39:06know is it genetic? Part of it might be

39:07sure. Um but there's an element of of

39:10this again this interactional patterns

39:13that are playing out you know um someone

39:17has OCD yes it's going to be quite

39:19common um that that's going to be passed

39:21on I think there's also the element of

39:23what's called the family projection

39:24process you know that a parent's anxiety

39:28if they're not able to manage that

39:30themselves one of the ways of managing

39:31anxiety in a family system is projection

39:33to the child so as example is you We we

39:38worry about the child and that makes us

39:39feel better, you know. Um but certainly

39:42the the the the generational process is

39:44is very very profound and you see it in

39:48in families, you know, like like you

39:50said, so it's it's there. It's a real

39:52effect that we have to be observant of.

39:53And who who who in that cycle is going

39:56to be most best placed to interrupt that

39:58cycle, you know, is it the child at the

40:00end of the cycle, you know, the the the

40:02most affected or or the least capable?

40:05Is is is is that child going to be the

40:07one who can develop differentiation of

40:09self and and you know regulate

40:11themselves and and you know find

40:12different ways of coping more adaptively

40:14and uh you know learn how to be

40:16different in their family system you

40:18know or is it going to be the parents

40:19who have that capacity to do that

40:21interruption of the cycle?

40:24>> It's it's a funny one because people

40:26swear I'm going to be nothing like my

40:28mother. I'm going to be nothing like my

40:30father. But yeah, here we are saying the

40:33same things, doing the same things. So I

40:35I have to say maybe part of it is just

40:37genetic and it's in our genes and

40:39>> I think there is a part to

40:41>> Yeah. No, there is a part of it that's

40:42genetic. Um but that but you know by by

40:46assigning that it's not a fatalistic

40:48sort of determin you know determination.

40:51Um it's like yeah okay though part of it

40:53might be genetics but but what are you

40:54going to do about it? Because ultimately

40:55genetics plays out in interactions.

40:56Again we could come back to that you

40:58know um you know so

41:02is there fusion happening can you

41:03interrupt that you know is there the

41:05family projection process happening can

41:06you interrupt that you know how how does

41:08this family bind its anxiety and how can

41:10you find different offramps I think

41:13that's what that's what the theory would

41:15say um

41:18>> completely

41:19>> so Ahmed I wanted to reflect on uh our

41:21session so typically I would come in and

41:25Shabbaz and I would share a recent

41:27tantrum or drama that had taken place in

41:30our household.

41:31>> But by the end of the session, you would

41:33have gently pointed out to me how much

41:35my anxiety, my energy, and my response

41:40had either contributed to the tantrum or

41:42escalated it or exacerbated.

41:44>> And I Yeah. And I remember thinking I

41:48really had to take my ego out of the

41:51equation when I was doing this work with

41:53you. And I have to ask, how important is

41:56humility when it comes to doing this

41:58work?

41:59>> Yeah, it's been something I've been

42:00thinking about. Um, I think it's it's a

42:03really interesting concept. Um, and and

42:06something that, you know, needs a bit

42:07more research, but I think it

42:11I I will answer that in the sense of I

42:13think it leads to curiosity perhaps.

42:17It's a theory I have that perhaps the

42:19humility leads to curiosity. And I think

42:20curiosity is the the starting point. you

42:23know, you have to be willing to be

42:24curious uh about what's happening beyond

42:28what you have preconceived or what you

42:30think or your sort of assumptions or,

42:32you know, um so I don't think you can

42:34see reality unless you can be curious

42:36about all the possibilities that might

42:38be there. Um and maybe humility plays a

42:41part in that, you know, um maybe it

42:44plays a fundamental part. Um, it sounds

42:46like for your experience that that was a

42:49really really important part of how you

42:51were able to access something that was

42:53perhaps a bit confronting or a bit maybe

42:55very confronting.

42:57Um, and yeah, I don't know, maybe you

43:00can speak to that a bit more.

43:02>> I mean, it's it's quite hard because

43:04especially when you have multiple

43:06children and you kind of think, but I

43:08was okay with number one.

43:10>> Where did I go wrong with number two? I

43:12did the exact same thing. So it's you're

43:14more likely to think that I'm not the

43:15problem. I'm still the way I did and it

43:19worked and I did such a great job. And

43:20then number two comes and throws or

43:22number three comes and challenges you

43:24further. So I think that's where is hard

43:26as well for parents because they don't

43:27see perhaps children as individuals with

43:30their own unique characteristics. So we

43:33have a blanket approach and if something

43:35is different it's easier to see or say

43:37that no that's the issue not here

43:39because I've done it before and it

43:41worked

43:41>> and it worked. Yeah. And yeah, I can see

43:44that logic. I can see some holes in it

43:46though as well in that, you know, it's

43:49there's this belief that the child is

43:51clean slate and they're all the same.

43:53No, they all have this I think there's

43:54two things that happening. One is that

43:55they are all individuals and they all

43:57have different temperaments and

43:58different personalities and it is I

44:00guess the again from the invitation is

44:04to see the reality of each child uh and

44:06adapt. You know, I think one of the the

44:08the issues um or the main issue is not

44:13so much that the families are playing

44:15out, you know, fusion or or and meshment

44:18or or sort of any of the other anxiety

44:21um binding. It's that they get stuck.

44:23You know, that this is the stuckness

44:24that's the problem. You know, the

44:25adaptability is gone. The ability to

44:27evolve and change and reflect and that's

44:30what gets families into a bit of

44:31stuckness.

44:33But it's also that you are not the same

44:35parent ever. No two parent, no two kids,

44:39even twins, even twins born minutes

44:41apart do not have the same experience of

44:43you and you do not have the same

44:45experience of them. So it's a bit of I

44:46think it's it's a fallacy that's worth

44:47calling out that you know I'm I parented

44:50all kids the same. That's impossible. Um

44:53and that's not the experience that the

44:55child's having because the child's

44:56temperament is different. Therefore,

44:58it's going to bring out something

44:59different in you. Uh so it's it's

45:01physically emotionally impossible for

45:04you to actually be the same across all

45:05across all children. Um so again

45:09>> makes sense

45:10>> mommy of one with all the time in the

45:12world is very different to mommy of two

45:14and a two when I am more frazzled and I

45:16am more stressed out. So I can see yeah

45:19I can see it now.

45:20>> It's

45:22it's it's very simple again going back

45:24to what we were saying before. it's

45:26very, you know, easy to sort of go,

45:28okay, I've done the same thing. I'm

45:30following the same method. Um, and then

45:32sort of the child gets blamed in the

45:34midst of that. But yeah, both both of

45:37you are changing and and even across the

45:39lifespan, right? So you'll have a child

45:40who's initially very compliant and and

45:42all that and then they hit 12 or 13 and

45:44then things change and the parents sort

45:45of out of sorts and go we did everything

45:47right and everything was going well and

45:48then all of a sudden well it's like how

45:50did you adapt to the transition from you

45:53know childhood to to pre-teen to

45:55adolescence you know how did you manage

45:58those transitions? Um you know were you

46:00prepared for a 15y old you know were you

46:03still seeing a seven-year-old? Um, and

46:06so that's that's it's a process of

46:08evolution and

46:10yeah, it's hard work. It's a hard gig

46:12being a parent, isn't it?

46:13>> It is. It is. And I I still keep on

46:17going back to the role my environment

46:20and my background and my culture has

46:22>> in in implementing Bowen because I I was

46:26actually talking to Shabbaz about this

46:27just last night that a lot of Bowen is

46:30about promoting in independence

46:33and how too much intervent interbentance

46:37saying it wrong

46:38>> is actually a issue. But again in my

46:42background inshment isn't just expected.

46:46It's almost how we measure love.

46:48>> So how can Bowen completely translate or

46:53come across in a culture like mine?

46:57>> H good question.

47:00I was thinking of it actually last

47:02night. Um and I think you know Bowen

47:05doesn't impose

47:07a value system. you know it doesn't

47:10impose right or wrong or good or bad and

47:12I think this is you know important that

47:16this is just about mapping what is

47:18happening in your in in a family you

47:20know these are predictable patterns that

47:22families operate by across generations

47:26across countries across races across

47:28cultures across religions this is a very

47:30rep replicatable

47:31um you know sort of model and and so

47:35it's it's not about saying

47:38interdependence is bad or too much is

47:40good or bad or causing an issue or you

47:42know but it's about okay what what's

47:44happening in this system you know is

47:47okay fusion happens in all families you

47:49know and meshment happens in all

47:51families all right can we be aware of it

47:53can we be deliberate with it does it

47:56mean that you know I I I abandon my

47:59collectivist you know values and you

48:02know the the the the sort of closeness

48:04that

48:06I don't know that's that's for you to

48:08sort of figure And I think, you know,

48:09the the each each has its pros and cons.

48:11Again, similar to what I said before,

48:13you know, there there are some pros to

48:14that and there are some cons to that.

48:15You know, a very individualistic more

48:17western culture, you know, has some pros

48:19but also has some cons. Um, but it's not

48:22advocating for for one or the other. Um,

48:25but it is saying that they potentially

48:27these are two extremes. you know, a a

48:30completely collectivist culture. You

48:32know, maybe that works or maybe it did

48:34work um in its in its origin, but is it

48:39working now in the way that you wanted

48:40to? Are there symptoms? Are there

48:42problems? Is there dysfunction coming

48:44from some of that that needs to be, you

48:46know, adapted? Um or is it all working

48:50and that's fine, you know? So, there's

48:52no sort of loading of this is what

48:54should be done. This is like no, this is

48:55how this is how the family's going. What

48:57do you want to do about it? What do you

48:59see as as helpful to to sort of lever

49:03for your own for your own principles for

49:06how you want to live for what you know

49:08what you see as how you want to connect

49:10with others um and the effect it's

49:13having on your life and your marriage

49:15and your kids and their development and

49:17your development. So it's it's just a

49:19framework you know people get to decide

49:21what they do with that.

49:22You wouldn't say it's easier to practice

49:25being in a western family compared to a

49:28say collectivist community. You would

49:31>> I think it's hard either way. I think

49:32it's hard either way.

49:34>> Um because you know the idea is how do

49:37you stay connected and together and

49:41separate, you know? So perhaps for the

49:44for the more individual

49:46cultures, the part of connecting maybe

49:48is a bit harder. And then maybe for the

49:50collective cultures the separating part

49:52is a little bit more challenging. So on

49:54balance it's still as hard

49:57you know. Yeah. Does that make sense?

49:59>> It's like it does. I was actually

50:02reading an article on this last night

50:03and the example they used a concrete

50:05example is that if an 18-year-old from a

50:07western family said I have uh I'm moving

50:10out. I've got my own apartment and I've

50:13got a job and those things. The parent

50:15might respond with wow you standing on

50:18your own two feet. You've become

50:19independent. and I'm so proud of you.

50:20Whereas somebody from a collective

50:22collectivist society might be like,

50:24you're abandoning us. We're your

50:27parents. We're going to be alone. And so

50:29then I kind of can't help but feel then

50:31wouldn't Bowen work better in the

50:33Western family?

50:35>> Well, I would say that, you know, is is

50:37that what's that a manifestation of in

50:39the Western family? You know, is is that

50:41just distance? and you know they're

50:42happy for him to go and they they want

50:44him to go and he wants to get out you

50:46know which is just as much a reaction as

50:50the abandonment you know they get out

50:52and go um and and maybe that's a straw

50:54man argument maybe that doesn't make

50:55sense but I think it's it's

50:58the challenge is different I think you

51:02know does that child go off free and

51:03then never connects with the family

51:04again and no one cares you know or there

51:07there's no sort of okay well that's also

51:10got its own problems you you know that

51:12will have its own impact of this child

51:13who's becomes hyper independent and you

51:15know goes off to the other side of the

51:16country and and sees his parents once

51:18every 5 years and you know once a year

51:20or you know how does that work so the

51:22challenge is just it's just a different

51:24challenge you know for the parents for

51:26the for the child

51:28um that's my opinion um

51:30>> it makes sense I think I just saw as

51:33differentiation of self so I kept on

51:34seeing it as how do you be separate how

51:36do you be separate I didn't see it as

51:38how do you be separate and together in

51:40balance At the same time I it's a

51:43different way of looking at it actually.

51:44>> Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's it's it's

51:46easier perhaps or simpler to look at,

51:49you know, oh, this person who's going

51:51out and being independent and and

51:52separating as healthy, but that can also

51:55be a manifestation of fusion, you know,

51:58it just looks different, you know. So,

52:01so that cut off or that detachment or

52:03that coldness or that lack of

52:05connectedness is also a symptom, you

52:07know, or we would say is part of the

52:10same problem. it just looks different

52:12because the family's permutation is a

52:14bit different. Um so that you know but

52:17then I think another layer to that is a

52:20collectivist culture you know a family

52:22from a collectivist culture let's say

52:23from from Pakistan or India or you know

52:25the subcontinent

52:27but then living in a western culture you

52:30know what what does the child do what

52:32you know they're not living in a world

52:35like that they're having to confront a

52:38western world they're dealing with the

52:39western world so it becomes a really

52:42difficult challenge to how do you are we

52:45a collectivist? Are we not? But we're

52:46living in a non-collectivist. His

52:48friends are all, you know, the

52:49societyy's organized in this way and but

52:51we're trying to impose our collectivist

52:53values and you but we're trying to so it

52:55just gets, you know, very messy. And so

52:57I think it's it's also about rethinking.

53:00Um

53:01>> that's that's why we're so confused

53:03Ahmed we bought it our collectivist

53:06views into the west and then we're

53:08wondering like how much do we drop? How

53:10much do we keep? Where does it where is

53:12it actually good and where does it

53:14actually needs to be like shelved? But

53:17it's a hard one and I think we're

53:19mindful now particularly living here now

53:22as expats in the Middle East where you

53:24really are neither here nor there.

53:27>> Western you know eastern so like what do

53:29you do?

53:30>> Yeah. And I think this is again the the

53:32the idea of the multigenerational

53:35process is you know that we we have our

53:38script or from you know or or the

53:40anti-cript if you want from our own

53:42parents. Um but it it's hard work to

53:45figure out what to do now you know cuz

53:47the world is different now. the world

53:49that we grew up in or the world that we

53:51were parented in and from where we

53:52learned our fundamentals I suppose of of

53:55parenting is being applied to a very

53:58different time you know and we're

54:00preparing our kids for another different

54:03set of time you know and you know

54:05there's a book by Neil howie um which is

54:09he's a historian he talks about you know

54:12that history happens in cycles you know

54:14so the rules that you learned or that

54:16you absorbed or you interpreted based on

54:18in your particular time

54:21is going to need to be adapted to the

54:24next generation. So it's it's not you

54:26can't do a copy paste. Um but I think

54:29what you said, you know, that's the

54:30challenge of picking what's good and

54:31what's working and what's helpful and

54:33and then perhaps reconsidering parts

54:35that are not so helpful, you know. Um so

54:38it's not about throwing out the baby

54:39with the bath water and going, "Oh, just

54:40toss out this collectivist or toss out

54:42this, you know, it's no good." um you

54:45know the collectivist culture the the

54:47individualist culture they both have

54:48pros and cons for a reason you know and

54:50they were helpful for the societies that

54:53they came from you know they were

54:54adaptive um so it's it's just how do we

54:57adapt now using these and these are just

55:00these ideas are just assists to help

55:02with thinking that's really what it is

55:04you know

55:06>> what about faith Ahmed how aligned is

55:09Bowen with Islam or just faith in

55:11general because in Islam there's so much

55:14emphasis on obedience to parents and

55:17honoring your parents and even

55:18collective responsibility.

55:20>> Where does Bowen fit in with that?

55:23Do we have two hours for this or

55:27um I've given this a lot of thought and

55:30particularly when I was initially

55:31learning Bowen this was very much on my

55:33mind you know trying to see as a Muslim

55:36myself you know where does this fit in

55:39with you know the the belief framework

55:41that I have now with how you know my

55:42duty to my parents my duty to my wife my

55:44duty to my kids you know does is this

55:47actually a helpful framework you know um

55:50so I can only report I suppose is my own

55:53thinking on this. Um,

55:57and I think they're incredibly

56:00compatible in a way that

56:02need but there's so much nuance to it. I

56:06think um

56:09how do I say

56:13I think one of the things you know and

56:15maybe I'm stretching the conversation a

56:16little bit here but one of the things

56:18that actually

56:21kind of helped me buy into the Bowen

56:23theory was the life of the prophet

56:25sallallahu alaihi wasallam

56:27you know not not to try and say you know

56:30they're equivalent but you know the

56:31prophet is obviously um you know a

56:34messenger but I could see a lot of what

56:37Bowen was describing in his character,

56:41how he navigated things because if you

56:43look at his life, particularly the the

56:44the early period, you know, I'm not a

56:46historian. I'm not a a scholar, but just

56:48as a lay person,

56:50he had a value system. He had a mission.

56:54He had truth to bring to the world. He

56:56had goodness to bring to the world. Um,

57:00and he met a lot of opposition. I could

57:02see the fusion. And I could see the

57:04reactivity from his family, from his

57:06from his tribe, from his, you know, the

57:07opposition, the the outrage, the and

57:10then to see how he navigated it. You

57:12know, he stayed steady. He focused on

57:13himself, you know, the the early period.

57:15And, you know, Islam, a big part of

57:18Islam is also working on yourself. You

57:20know, your character traits, your vices,

57:22your, you know, um, and so I don't see

57:26any incompatibility at all. Actually, I

57:28see it's like how how do I do this in

57:30service of how to honor my parents, you

57:33know, but there's no dictim of how the

57:36honoring is done, you know, that's not

57:37prescribed. It's like yes, you have to

57:39honor your parents. Yes, there's an

57:40element of obedience, but how I do that

57:44can be from a very differentiated, from

57:46a very calm, from a very thoughtful,

57:48from a very deliberate, from a very

57:49intentional, from a very informed

57:51perspective rather than a reactive. I do

57:55what my family wants me to do, you know,

57:58because that that was never what the

57:59what the, you know, early um early

58:02companions did. They weren't just

58:04obedient to their parents

58:06open-endedly. They weren't just

58:08following what their families were

58:09doing. They took a different belief

58:10system, you know, they stepped out of,

58:12you know, so maybe not not completely

58:14analogous, but for me it it makes

58:16perfect sense. If I can be

58:18differentiated, if I can be more

58:20differentiated, which for me is is also

58:22in the image of the prophet's character.

58:23He was, I would say, the most

58:25differentiated person on earth. You

58:27know, um his ability to navigate the

58:30pressures from family for a greater

58:33purpose that he knew. You know, he had a

58:35mission, he had truth that he was

58:36upholding. He he knew what he was doing

58:40and he was determined to carry that out.

58:43Um and he maintained his relations in

58:47the perfect way with all the people that

58:50had a claim on him, his his children,

58:52his wives, um his companions, his

58:55friends, um his enemies, his family,

58:58both who believed and didn't believe,

59:00you know. So the stories are you know I

59:02don't need to go into the stories but

59:03they're numerous of how he maintained

59:04connection how he maintained that

59:07familial piety but there were lines to

59:10that you know within his construct

59:12within the frames of of his belief and

59:15what he needed to do. So I think you

59:18know without yeah I mean this could be a

59:21very very long conversation but how I

59:23don't know your thoughts on that before

59:25I go on. No, I I agree with you because

59:27I when you mentioned the life of the

59:29prophet of Islam, I was I remember the

59:31example of how he was known as being the

59:34most present individual ever in regards

59:36to his wives and his children. But he

59:39still carved time out to go to the

59:41mountains and isolate himself for up to

59:4440 days for him for himself for his

59:48introspection and his reflection which

59:50just made him a better husband or a

59:53better father. And it's the example of

59:55how being separate and being together

59:58can coexist very well. And he showed how

1:00:01it can be done.

1:00:02>> I think he did. I think if you if you

1:00:04really look at his that was, you know, a

1:00:06thread that ran through, you know, um

1:00:09and and the companions that he that

1:00:11followed him, you know, both the men and

1:00:13women, that that was they balanced it,

1:00:15you know, they were really really good

1:00:17examples to look at for for this, you

1:00:19know, how did you balance your religion

1:00:21and your faith and your your self, you

1:00:24know, physical self and your your own

1:00:27well-being, your own sense of yourself,

1:00:29your own identity, you know, or were you

1:00:31just being mass massaged by all the

1:00:33pressures around you, you know, and and

1:00:35the effective leaders were not the ones

1:00:37that

1:00:39bowed into pressure, you know, either

1:00:41from themselves, the emotional pressure

1:00:42or the familial pressure, you know. So,

1:00:44it's it's about okay, there's going to

1:00:48be pressure. It's going to be

1:00:49predictable, you know, if you have a

1:00:51mission or if you have some values, if

1:00:52you have some principles that you are

1:00:54believing in authentically, how do you

1:00:56live that out? you know um is that value

1:01:01guided by

1:01:03um you know fusion is is that that's the

1:01:07whole thing or is it you know guided by

1:01:11separateness drive which is also

1:01:13reactive or is it more principle based

1:01:15more thoughtful how to balance the two

1:01:18you know um and so that's that's

1:01:21differentiation of self you know how do

1:01:23you how do you be in the world without

1:01:26kind of going in the

1:01:28whichever way pressures push you, you

1:01:30know, and you get to choose that, you

1:01:32know, and that's that's that's the idea

1:01:34here. You make the choice, you choose

1:01:35the principles, you choose the values.

1:01:38Um, and there'll be heat that will come

1:01:40from that from certain people. You know,

1:01:43I can I can speak for for my own self,

1:01:45you know, that it's not easy when you

1:01:47make a decision or or you you think of

1:01:50something that you need to do. You know,

1:01:53you have a fundamentally have a value,

1:01:55somebody's going to not like that. You

1:01:57know, somebody's going to be upset.

1:01:58Somebody's going to find that as an

1:01:59affront. Somebody's going to find that

1:02:01as insulting or outrageous. Um, it's

1:02:04like, okay, but this is the fundamental

1:02:06of fusion, right? Like that's Your

1:02:08emotion is you. I'm me. You know, I I'm

1:02:11not I'm not responsible for you to feel

1:02:14better. I don't have to I don't have to

1:02:16do everything so that you never feel

1:02:18upset. I'm going to do me. I'm going to

1:02:20be thoughtful. I'm going to be

1:02:21deliberate. I'm going to be informed.

1:02:22I'm going to be connected. I'm going to

1:02:24be separate. I'm going to be all of

1:02:25those things.

1:02:27And if you get outraged by that, that's,

1:02:31you know, that's me seeing the fusion

1:02:32and going, "Okay, no, that that's that's

1:02:33a you problem over there. I'm here." You

1:02:36know,

1:02:37>> I'm smiling because I'm thinking to

1:02:38myself, try telling that to a people

1:02:40pleaser. I'm not okay with not being

1:02:43liked.

1:02:44>> Yeah.

1:02:45>> So, it's like easily easily more easier

1:02:48said than done.

1:02:48>> Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I don't mean

1:02:50to simplify it, but um but that's where

1:02:52the work is, right? That's where that's

1:02:55where the effort is, you know. Um that's

1:02:59where the productive effort might be for

1:03:01for that for the people pleaser, you

1:03:03know.

1:03:04um how can you tolerate letting somebody

1:03:06down a little bit, you know, and it's

1:03:09it's a muscle though, right? So as you

1:03:11flex it, you get better and better at

1:03:13it.

1:03:14>> It's the discomfort muscle you were

1:03:16talking about the importance of being

1:03:17okay with discomfort and that's where

1:03:20people really struggle.

1:03:21>> Oh, absolutely. You know, but then

1:03:23again, I look at the prophetam and you

1:03:24know, was he uncomfortable with the with

1:03:26the decisions he made? You know, he he

1:03:28you know, he got people trying to

1:03:30assassinate him as a result. He you know

1:03:32he had to sit with a lot of discomfort

1:03:34you know um his family had to sit with a

1:03:37lot of dis discomfort you know uh his

1:03:39wife passed away his his first wife

1:03:41passed away from from the extremities of

1:03:44of the pressures that were bear came to

1:03:45bear on you know but she stood strong

1:03:48and he stood he he stood strong so it's

1:03:51>> yeah it's not easy work yeah

1:03:54>> no Ahmed I've learned so much from this

1:03:58conversation and I actually thought I

1:03:59knew Bowen because I worked with you,

1:04:02but I think I really appreciated

1:04:05learning about the balance between being

1:04:08separate and being together and getting

1:04:10the balance right because in my head I

1:04:13did still see Bowen as just a western

1:04:15framework that only works in the west

1:04:17because it's easier for them to be

1:04:19separate whereas in my background it's

1:04:22more normal for us to be in each other's

1:04:23faces where every decision has to impact

1:04:26everybody else and you have to consider

1:04:27everybody's thoughts and feelings. So I

1:04:30can see how they're both extremes and

1:04:32it's either way it's not particularly

1:04:35the right way to be.

1:04:36>> Yeah. But I would say it's it's less

1:04:38about right or wrong. It's just seeing

1:04:40this is how different families operate,

1:04:42you know, but there is a theme. There is

1:04:43a predictable way that they will

1:04:45respond, you know, and how how you can

1:04:48be more aware of that is really all it's

1:04:49about, you know. But I'm curious what

1:04:52what sort of helped you sort of

1:04:53understand that a little bit more?

1:04:56the examples you used just now actually

1:04:58especially when you were talking about

1:05:00being separate is just as important as

1:05:02being together. So the answer isn't just

1:05:05take away the togetherness cuz there's

1:05:07value in that. We also need to feel that

1:05:09we belong and we're part of something

1:05:11and that gives you self-esteem, right?

1:05:12It gives you a sense of self

1:05:14>> that grounds you. So if you completely

1:05:16eliminate that, I can see how that

1:05:18doesn't help either.

1:05:19>> Oh, absolutely. that's going to lead to

1:05:21its own set of dysfunction and you know

1:05:23the family is a resource and that

1:05:24connectedness is important. We're social

1:05:26beings that and that's why you know it's

1:05:28it's um it's such an important part of

1:05:30it. So yeah it's it's it's moving away

1:05:32from the extremes right moving away from

1:05:34either extreme.

1:05:36>> Um but yeah

1:05:38>> cuz I'm always arguing the these western

1:05:41theories do not align with our faith and

1:05:44our culture and our background but I

1:05:47like to be challenged on that as well.

1:05:49Maybe it's not as black and white as I

1:05:50sometimes say it is

1:05:52>> perhaps. Yeah. And I think, you know,

1:05:55there's there's a lot of misconceptions

1:05:57I think around people's views of this

1:06:00and and you know, you're not the first

1:06:02person to sort of make that criticism. I

1:06:03think I was um also asked a similar

1:06:06question um by Dr. Brown once. Um but

1:06:09yeah, I don't think it it doesn't impose

1:06:11a value. This is just a this is it's a

1:06:15system. It's a it's a model of

1:06:19predicting and observing

1:06:22behavior of families you know and with

1:06:25that knowledge if you can predict if you

1:06:26can observe if you can see the patterns

1:06:29then you are better informed to make a

1:06:31thoughtful deliberate choice about what

1:06:33you want to do that's it you know and so

1:06:37for me that means it it makes perfect

1:06:39sense and actually particularly Bowen I

1:06:42feel makes a lot of sense in the Islamic

1:06:44context given given our and tradition

1:06:46and and um you know the values it's just

1:06:49that

1:06:50yeah I mean but every culture interprets

1:06:53the religion in its own way as well so

1:06:55there's there's nuance to that um and uh

1:06:59yeah just it's just being about curious

1:07:01learning and uh yeah I'm glad you found

1:07:05that some helpful examples

1:07:08>> so um Ahmed if there's any parent who's

1:07:11listening to this conversation and can

1:07:13resonate with some of the things that we

1:07:14spoke that or perhaps somebody just

1:07:16wants to learn more about Boeing. Tell

1:07:18me where do they begin?

1:07:20>> Where do they begin? Um if they're

1:07:22interested in reading, there are some

1:07:24certain books that they can sort of

1:07:25access. U is that sort of what you mean?

1:07:29>> Books or just strategies or just

1:07:33>> Yeah. Um I think you know one of the

1:07:39I I had a my wife actually shared this

1:07:41example. I was determined to use it at

1:07:43some point today. She said, you know,

1:07:44life can't be run as a three-legged

1:07:45race. So, I think that's something to

1:07:47keep in mind, you know, yes, you are

1:07:50bound to your child, you know, at the

1:07:52very beginning, but there's a trans

1:07:54there's a developmental process that

1:07:56needs to happen. And I think it's

1:07:57important to keep this in mind, you

1:07:58know, that the child was in the womb,

1:07:59and then they're separated physically,

1:08:01and then they're they're walking, then

1:08:02they're feeding themselves, and then

1:08:03they're going to school, like, you know,

1:08:05so there's a normal trajectory of

1:08:07independence that is almost being forced

1:08:09on how the world operates. And so I

1:08:12think just keeping that in mind, you

1:08:14know, if we tie if we run that if we tie

1:08:16up our legs and we're always running

1:08:18together, that's not going to be

1:08:20helpful. So, um, you know, thinking of

1:08:24is my

1:08:26linking to that, you know, check check

1:08:27your helping, you know, before you

1:08:29before you're helping somebody, ask

1:08:31yourself, is this kindness or is this

1:08:33niceness and sacrifice wrapped up, you

1:08:35know, sort of anxiety wrapped up in

1:08:38niceness, you know? um

1:08:43am I doing this because I trust they can

1:08:45handle it or because I can't watch them

1:08:46struggle, you know? So, just sort of

1:08:48checking your helping, you know, is it

1:08:49nice or is it being kind? Um,

1:08:53another helpful point might be, you

1:08:55know, are you being

1:08:57uh particularly the people pleasers

1:08:59perhaps in conversations with people,

1:09:00are you being careful? Are you being

1:09:01respectful? I think there's a there's a

1:09:03difference there as well. you know,

1:09:04careful is I don't want to upset anyone

1:09:06and so I I kind of, you know, blunt my

1:09:09words or I'm I clip my my opinions, you

1:09:13know, um but respectful means staying

1:09:15honestly in contact with them while

1:09:18managing my own reaction, you know,

1:09:20saying something authentic. So, I don't

1:09:23know if you want to experiment a bit,

1:09:24you know, you can pick pick a

1:09:25relationship and write write something

1:09:27that you would normally say to them and

1:09:28then, you know, perhaps a little bit

1:09:30difficult and what's what's a careful

1:09:32version of that? what's a respectful

1:09:33version that's perhaps a bit more honest

1:09:35to you uh and seeing what happens you

1:09:37know so there's an experiment that you

1:09:38could run to learn I think the biggest

1:09:41the biggest thing is you learn through

1:09:43experimentation observation you know

1:09:45that you notice what's your role you

1:09:49know in the family you know there's

1:09:50there are prototypical roles right in a

1:09:52family there's the the the helper and

1:09:54the and the provider and the fixer and

1:09:56the one who brings humor and you know so

1:09:59what role are you in and experiment with

1:10:01trying a role, see what happens,

1:10:04>> you know, try and step out of that.

1:10:06>> Yeah,

1:10:06>> it makes sense. Particularly with with

1:10:08parenting, like I remember when my

1:10:10morning routine was so chaotic where

1:10:13there would always be somebody crying or

1:10:15screaming or shouting and it just went

1:10:16on for so long. And it took me a lot of

1:10:20introspection and also humility to be

1:10:23like, perhaps I could be calmer in the

1:10:26morning. Perhaps I could do something

1:10:28differently. Perhaps I could like be a

1:10:30bit more patient with the children when

1:10:31they're waking up and they're tired and

1:10:33they're grumpy. But it's funny because

1:10:35you do the same thing again and again

1:10:37and again for so many years until you

1:10:40even realize what the problem is and how

1:10:42the problem may actually be you.

1:10:44>> But you do have to step out. You have to

1:10:46like zoom out almost

1:10:48>> to see it.

1:10:48>> I think that's a good way to put it, you

1:10:50know, zooming out. And that in itself is

1:10:52hard, you know, when you're stuck in it,

1:10:54you know. So, so some effort

1:10:56>> like groundhog groundhog day every day.

1:10:58>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you

1:11:00know the the the stories that I hear,

1:11:02you know, for my own family and you know

1:11:04that that this is what people are stuck,

1:11:06you know, they're just doing the same

1:11:07thing again again. Can we can we step

1:11:09out, you know, how about we step out and

1:11:11just sort of take a pause instead of

1:11:12trying to fix it, instead of trying to

1:11:14do something else, do nothing for a bit,

1:11:16you know? Um I had one family who, you

1:11:18know, they they were really intolerant

1:11:20of of this idea, you know. And I was

1:11:22like, but when you go to a doctor and

1:11:23you have, you know, you need to do a

1:11:25procedure or something, they're going to

1:11:26send you off for a scan, you know, go to

1:11:27a CT scan, go to an ultrasound. We need

1:11:29some imaging of of what's happening. I'm

1:11:32not going to just cut you open, you

1:11:34know, fumbling with something, do

1:11:36something, you know, no, I'm going to

1:11:37step back. I'm going to see, okay,

1:11:38there's the liver, there's the, you

1:11:39know, okay, now I have my bearings, you

1:11:41know, and I think that's that's what the

1:11:43invitation is, you know, to to sort of

1:11:44catch that. Um, and uh, another

1:11:48experiment might be, you know,

1:11:52doing less to help someone, watching

1:11:53watching somebody fumble with something

1:11:54before you jump in, you know, and see

1:11:56what happens. Let them work something

1:11:59out, let them experience a consequence,

1:12:01you know, and notice what happens for

1:12:03you, you know, but but again focusing on

1:12:07your awareness as well of am I just

1:12:09focusing on the child or is the

1:12:11awareness coming back to me? is my focus

1:12:12so much on the kid or so there's some

1:12:15things that might be helpful. um

1:12:17>> they they sound really helpful Ahmed but

1:12:20you know when I was um thinking about a

1:12:21conversation and I was think putting

1:12:23some questions together I do remember

1:12:25thinking like when did parenting become

1:12:28so complicated that we're you know

1:12:31referring ourselves to child

1:12:32psychologists or like going to parenting

1:12:34frameworks or just um reading so much

1:12:38and like I don't know where did we go

1:12:41wrong

1:12:42>> so Peter Peter Stern Dr. Peter Stern in

1:12:44the US has written a couple of books on

1:12:46this interestingly and um you know a big

1:12:51part of Dr. Browns Brown's work as well

1:12:53has been along these lines. You know

1:12:54that what happened to the parents

1:12:57capacity and confidence in their own

1:12:58parenting you know it seems to have

1:13:02continued to slide amidst the ever

1:13:05growing research on parenting you know

1:13:08that first came out in I don't know the

1:13:09' 70s or something. So there's been sort

1:13:11of like an inverse correlation between

1:13:13parental confidence and capacity and the

1:13:16parenting advice you know. So I think

1:13:18this is a part of this is is a call to

1:13:21rely less on experts you know and how

1:13:23can we help parents

1:13:26you know

1:13:27think for themselves and that's the work

1:13:30maybe that's the work you know to to to

1:13:32rely on yourselves to to give you these

1:13:35ideas so that you can see what is

1:13:38happening so you can create your own map

1:13:40rather than

1:13:42you know the expert giving you a bunch

1:13:45of techniques and strategies and tips

1:13:46tips and tricks and um you know to to

1:13:49sort of implement and I think that's

1:13:52yeah I think I think that's where a lot

1:13:54of things have have become difficult for

1:13:56parents. there's so much research to

1:13:57absorb and there's so much burden of

1:13:59like oh I need to know all of this

1:14:00information and you know this new

1:14:02technique and this new model and this

1:14:04new book has come out I need to read

1:14:05that and this podcast and and you know I

1:14:09think that is sapping away at the

1:14:10parents energy and confidence and

1:14:13capacity

1:14:15um and and this sort of model is an

1:14:17invitation for parents to go maybe you

1:14:20can do this yourself maybe you can think

1:14:22through this without needing so much

1:14:24expert help. You know,

1:14:28>> um

1:14:28>> I remember one of the things you

1:14:31>> Sorry, one of the things you did say in

1:14:33one of our sessions was that if you're

1:14:35in therapy forever, then I'm not doing

1:14:37my job properly.

1:14:38>> Well, yeah. Which

1:14:39>> absolutely that's the crux of it, right?

1:14:41So, I mean, this this process of

1:14:43learning and understanding your family

1:14:44and understanding your dynamics and the

1:14:46relationships, that's work, but

1:14:48ultimately it's about helping you fly

1:14:50from the nest and go, "Okay, I can think

1:14:52for myself. I can I can now use these

1:14:55things to apply to different situations

1:14:56that come up, you know. So, I had a mom

1:14:58once who she wanted an answer for every

1:15:01different permutation of every different

1:15:02situation. It's like I I can't do that

1:15:04for you. This is a fusion. This is a

1:15:05dependency. You know, every time you

1:15:07have something that's a little bit

1:15:09different, I can't come in and give you

1:15:11the the perfect answer, you know. But if

1:15:14you have this ability and you've been

1:15:15able to develop this thinking for

1:15:18yourself, that's infinitely more useful

1:15:20to the family as a resource, I think.

1:15:24Um, so we've I mean, it's not all gone

1:15:26wrong. There's been a lot of benefit to

1:15:27some of that research as well, but it

1:15:29has had this side effect on on parents

1:15:31certainly. Yeah,

1:15:33>> we are still a community of extremes.

1:15:35So, you'll still see those who want to

1:15:36read books and see the therapists and

1:15:38want to know everything about

1:15:39everything. But then there'll be those

1:15:41who will be living just Groundhog Day

1:15:43again and again and not quite seeing

1:15:44that there is a problem or even have

1:15:47trouble just seeing something that's

1:15:49like glaringly obvious to them. So we're

1:15:52still mixed I think in terms of our

1:15:53parenting journeys.

1:15:54>> Yeah. No, everyone's on their own

1:15:56journey and you know it's people pick up

1:15:59ideas like this at their own pace and in

1:16:01their own time and um some people are

1:16:03ready for it, some people are not. Um,

1:16:06but hopefully something of of what we've

1:16:09talked about today has been helpful for

1:16:10for your listeners.

1:16:12>> Yeah, it's been helpful to me as well.

1:16:14I've learned so much. So, I want to say

1:16:16thank you, Dr. Ahmed, for your time and

1:16:19your expertise, and I'm really looking

1:16:21forward to forwarding this to my family

1:16:23and my friends.

1:16:24>> No worries. No worries.

1:16:27>> Thank you.

1:16:27>> Thank you, Alina. Okay.