Graham Stephan on Quiet Quitting His Channel to Do Podcasts

0:00running out of ideas. I wasn't creative

0:01anymore. I was making videos for the

0:02sake of making videos.

0:03You've been telling me this for years.

0:05I'm like, Graham, what type of video are

0:07you going to be posting this Wednesday?

0:09Nothing's happening in the markets. And

0:10he's like, "Just another passive income

0:12video."

0:13You said the main channel was your baby.

0:14You edited. You put out what, three

0:15videos a week for years. And now this

0:18podcast, this is priority numerator.

0:20Everything comes down to the decisions

0:22that you make.

0:22We resolved most things with coin flips.

0:24What the is a coin flip? My income was

0:27decided on a coin flip. Have there been

0:29moments of insights or realization that

0:30have changed how you think? H

0:34Graham Stefen and Jack Selby host the

0:36Iced Coffee Hour, a top podcast with

0:38about a million followers featuring

0:40guests like Alex Ramoszi, Bobby Lee, and

0:42Hassan Before the podcast, Graham

0:45was a multi-millionaire personal finance

0:48YouTuber and real estate agent. Jack

0:50Selby was a bus boy who cold emailed

0:52Graham asking to work for him. How did

0:54Jack convince Graham to partner with him

0:56as equals on the iced coffee hour? Why

0:58is Graham quiet quitting his main

1:00YouTube channel to focus on the podcast?

1:02And how did they tripled his eyes this

1:04past year? Find out today on the Carrot

1:06podcast. This pod is sponsored by me. I

1:09helped build this cool new tool, Carrot

1:11Insights. If you're a creator, Carro

1:13helps you manage your financials and

1:15compare how you're doing against peers.

1:16More on this later and link in

1:18description below.

1:20Jack and Graham, thanks so much for

1:22making time today. the Iced Coffee Hour

1:24podcast. You two have started. You've

1:26exploded over the past year. You're what

1:28at 930,000 subscribers.

1:31A little bit more than Caleb Hammer, I

1:32think.

1:33No, Caleb is beating us byund. So, we're

1:36in this race with Caleb Hammer right

1:37now. And we're both at the exact same

1:39amount of subscribers. And sometimes

1:41he'll gain a few hundred on us, we'll

1:42gain a few hundred on him. Right now,

1:44he's in the lead by about 120

1:47subscribers. I did check right before

1:48precisely 928,000

1:51for each of you, but he's 100

1:52subscribers ahead.

1:53What blows my mind though is you started

1:55this podcast almost 4 years ago, May

1:582020,

1:59and it's really in the past year that

2:01you almost tripled a subscriber count.

2:03So, you had like some steady growth,

2:05like 100k, and then you absolutely blew

2:07the top off. What changed? You know what

2:10it was? It was our talk in New York.

2:12That's what it was. That was the the

2:14start of it. So Jack and I had this talk

2:17as we were walking through New York in

2:19the winter and it was snowing and we had

2:22like this great discussion. You remember

2:23this Jack?

2:25We had a lot of discussions on that New

2:27York trip.

2:27That was it. And I was telling Jack,

2:28hey, listen, man. Uh I think we should

2:31like go 100% on the podcast and like

2:34this is it cuz I think at the time you

2:36were doing some other stuff on the side.

2:37You were doing like the like you know

2:40sponsorship thing.

2:41I was I don't know that I think we were

2:43just rounding that out.

2:45I was doing the second channel as well

2:46and a bunch of other random

2:48miscellaneous tasks, but we really

2:50wanted to hone in on the podcast

2:51and I think I mentioned something like,

2:53dude, I I could go all in on this thing

2:55and and travel. And for me, the main

2:57channel was was my like baby. It took

3:02a priority over anything. And so a lot

3:04of times I could be like, I can't do

3:05this podcast and I can't go here because

3:07I got to get a main channel video out.

3:09And I told Jack, I'll make this the

3:10priority and we go anywhere at any time

3:13and I'll do it.

3:14That was it. I remember because I felt

3:16like I was bottlenecked as far as the

3:18work went on the iced coffee hour

3:19because we couldn't travel to certain

3:21guests. And I felt like that was really

3:23limiting ourselves. And then Graham was

3:25like, he was like, "All right, I'll tell

3:26you what. We can make this a priority."

3:28And I'm like, "Perfect. Amazing. 100%.

3:30I'm all in on this and then we can go

3:32and we can finally start traveling to

3:33guests." And that's what we've really

3:34done for most of our episodes in the

3:36past year.

3:37Yeah. Two years ago, there's be no way

3:38I'd be able to do this on a Thursday.

3:40This would have have to have been on

3:42probably a Sunday cuz that would have

3:43been the only day I'd have time to do

3:45anything. And a lot of our guests too

3:46would have to come to us and it just

3:49wasn't conducive because then we were

3:51just reliant on the people who were

3:52willing to come to Vegas. And as soon as

3:54I was like, let let's make the podcast

3:56priority and go anywhere. Um, and even

3:59the podcast we did before this, we found

4:00out about it yesterday and you just like

4:03came in.

4:03There would have never been a world a

4:05couple of years ago where Graham could

4:06have ever made that happen.

4:07That's true.

4:08What totally changed where you said the

4:09main channel was your baby. You edited,

4:11you put out what, like three videos a

4:12week.

4:13Three videos a week

4:14for years. And now this podcast, this is

4:16priority enumerated. I got tired of it

4:19to be honest with you. I got so tired. I

4:21felt like I was running out of ideas. I

4:22wasn't creative anymore. I was making

4:24videos for the sake of making videos.

4:26And a lot of it was like a pride thing

4:27where I didn't want to stop because I'm

4:29like I work so hard to do this thing.

4:31I'm in a position that so many people

4:32would love to be in. I felt like I

4:34wouldn't be appreciative of that if I

4:36stop posting because I'm like it's a

4:38waste. Like people would love to be in

4:40this. Like why? It's it's easy to keep

4:43making videos and to keep pushing

4:44through. So I found myself just pushing

4:47through even though I knew that probably

4:49wasn't the right thing to keep doing is

4:50just keep making videos for the sake of

4:52the algorithm. Like it's like feeding a

4:54flame. It's like, oh, the more the more

4:56you know what I throw at the flame, the

4:57bigger it's going to get, the bigger it

4:59is, the better it's going to be.

5:01I just it got to a point I was just sick

5:03of it. It's like there's this huge sunk

5:04cost and you have to hit a certain level

5:06of misery that prompts you to look and

5:10be like, maybe I should change. Was

5:12there a specific video or moment you

5:13were like, I can't do this anymore?

5:15Every year I've I've said it. Every year

5:17for

5:17He's been telling me this for years. I'm

5:20like I'm like, what type of video are

5:21you going to be posting this Wednesday?

5:23like know nothing's happening in the

5:24markets and he's like

5:26just another passive income video and I

5:29sigh the the desperation in his eyes

5:32it's like just pure

5:33you know what but I think a lot of

5:35things took a toll on that because I was

5:37so focused if if it was Monday and I had

5:39to post a video on Wednesday and nothing

5:40happened in the market I was so

5:42irritable like you couldn't talk to me

5:44you couldn't distract me I was just like

5:47in my head even at night let's just say

5:4910 p.m. night like I'm fully kind of

5:51checked out. I would be irritable

5:53because I'd be in my head thinking,

5:55"What's the Wednesday topic? How do I

5:57make this good for the people who watch

5:59the Monday video?" If I didn't have

6:01anything, it was bad. It was all I would

6:03think about and I wouldn't go out. I

6:06wouldn't see friends. I would just

6:08think, "What's the best topic for

6:10Wednesday?" And it just I could put up

6:12with it for some time. But yeah, 2020 I

6:15I said I was going to go down and maybe

6:17stop and then CO happened and I kept

6:19going. Then I think in 2021 I was

6:22thinking, okay, I'll just keep going to

6:24April of 2022. And then then I I just

6:26said, well, let's go to the end of the

6:28year.

6:28And then I thought, well, let's just do

6:31one more year. And so I just kept

6:33putting it off and off and off. But I'm

6:35at a point now where I've just stopped

6:37caring.

6:38Yeah.

6:39Yeah. Jack, what was that like for you

6:42starting pushing Graham to begin the

6:44podcast in 2020? Getting parts of your

6:47time, not the full focus, watching him

6:49steadily decline in spirits and morale,

6:53and then finally you got him to switch

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7:24because Carrot's mission is to help

7:26handle the business side of being a

7:27creator. Now, back to the podcast. And

7:30then finally, you got him to switch

7:32over. So, it felt super good because the

7:36podcast for me has really like I mean

7:38from a realistic perspective, it's all

7:40that I cared about. It's like I had

7:42other work that needed to be done like

7:44the second channel and all these other

7:46side stuff, but the podcast was all I

7:48really actually cared about. And

7:49finally, when he was like, "All right,

7:50well, I can go all in on the podcast." I

7:52knew that one of the main limiting

7:53factors was just Graham's ability to be

7:56present somewhere else to film with

7:57someone else. And then obviously I just

7:59it felt felt really good because I I

8:02also we had these frustrating

8:03conversations for a long time where

8:05Graham was like you need to increase

8:07productivity on the podcast. You need to

8:08do more on the podcast more and more and

8:09more. But I knew for a fact I could

8:12double my effort on the podcast and it

8:14was already a lot of effort and the

8:15results just wouldn't have came because

8:18Graham wouldn't like the availability of

8:19Graham was our main limiting factor. So

8:22that also like eased a lot of that

8:24stress off of me where I felt like I was

8:26inadequate because I kept hearing from

8:29so many people, oh you need to put in

8:30more and more, more more and I knew it

8:32wouldn't have amounted to anything.

8:33I've noticed too a shift in the guests

8:35and direction of the podcast as well

8:38over the past year.

8:39That I owe to Jack.

8:40It's Jack's doing lot more political

8:43commentary.

8:44Let's let's Okay, let's let's figure

8:46this out for a second. So

8:48it's not necessarily political. It's

8:51just a broader podcast in totality. Like

8:54we had on a psychiatrist that wasn't

8:55necessarily political. We didn't talk

8:57about finances at all and it did over a

8:59million views for us. Yeah. We got to

9:00the point with the ice coffee hour where

9:01we would bring people on similar to

9:03Caleb Hammer, we do like a financial

9:04audit. We would just talk to them about

9:05their financial journey and then after a

9:08while

9:09I wasn't enthused about it and I don't

9:10think Graham was super enthused about it

9:12either. It's like okay well we know that

9:13they're doing well. they would be our

9:16videos but it's the same story and it

9:18doesn't like spur that excitement and

9:20intrigue in ourselves we weren't super

9:22passionate about it I was super

9:23passionate about other things like

9:25politics psychology philosophy etc and

9:28then also when we brought on hormosi for

9:30the first time the episode exploded for

9:32us but one of the things people really

9:34appreciated about the episode was this

9:35long philosophical discussion at the end

9:37of the episode and I would say that was

9:39like the seed in my brain was like okay

9:40well we can now talk about other topics

9:43than just like people's financial

9:44journey throughout their life and then

9:46we've just opened it up to wherever we

9:48find interest.

9:49You mentioned Jack's been pushing a lot

9:50more on this and I remember you've said

9:52there have been guests you wanted to

9:53bring on where Graham you were kind of

9:54like

9:54oh yeah

9:55we won't say any of the names but there

9:57are like certain people that I 100% want

9:59to bring on but he vetos.

10:00Yeah, I'm definitely very safe and I

10:02think who you have on the podcast people

10:05whether it's right or not people say you

10:06associate with their line of thinking.

10:08So if we have someone on who thinks, you

10:10know, the sky is red, even if I disagree

10:14with that, the fact that I am

10:15platforming this person who believes the

10:17sky is red must mean that I support his

10:19views that the sky is red.

10:21I think everyone deserves a place to

10:24speak their mind and I like to hear

10:26other perspectives even if I disagree

10:28with it. I'm pretty indifferent on a lot

10:30of things, but I've been very safe about

10:32like, hey, this person has some stuff

10:35that, you know, maybe I don't want to

10:36align with. I don't agree with them. And

10:39then I kind of think what value can they

10:41add? And so if they're on the podcast, I

10:44do believe that they have some value

10:45that they can add in one way or another.

10:46But yeah, Jack has pushed me out of my

10:48comfort zone a lot to talk about topics

10:50that I would never talk about before.

10:52I'm particularly intrigued. I think in

10:54addition to Graham, you deciding to go

10:56fulltime, Jack, you pushing to bring on

10:58a broader nature of guests. I think the

11:00third huge contributor to your success

11:03is the Jack and Graham relationship.

11:06It's a good one. It's a good

11:07relationship.

11:07We got a great relationship. And I will

11:09say our relationship now, I mentioned

11:11this to Graham recently. I think it's

11:13like the healthiest it's ever been. And

11:14our relationship has never been toxic.

11:16It's always been very healthy, but there

11:18was a time, and I don't want to go on

11:19like a tangent or anything. We were in

11:20my fam's apartment in New York, and I

11:23remember we were sitting around playing

11:24katon with all these people that are

11:26like, you know, my age and stuff. And

11:28Graham's kind of hanging in there, and

11:30he's like, he's like he's like tired.

11:32He's getting ready for bed. And I just

11:34look over at Graham. I'm like, "Dude, I

11:36appreciate the fact that grandma's like

11:38hanging out just just like like being a

11:41friend, you know what I mean? And we're

11:43in New York together. We've been

11:44attacking this for years and here we

11:46are. We've just found ourselves right

11:48here." And I felt myself like for some

11:50reason that thought just like made me so

11:52much closer to him and not in like a a

11:54weird way obviously, but I don't know.

11:56and and and it really made me recognize

11:58the fact that like like we used to kind

12:00of have these little scuffles every once

12:01in a while and we'd have to like debate

12:03about or argue even about a certain

12:04topic, but recently we really haven't

12:07like argued probably for the past year.

12:09I don't know much of what we argue about

12:11really. It's pro if anything it's

12:14probably like a work thing of just like

12:16it was always work. It was never

12:17personal.

12:17But what I love I've seen you two I mean

12:2020 minutes ago, two hours ago you guys

12:22were disagreeing where Jack you were

12:23like, "Hey Graham, help me with the

12:24podcast." But it's so healthy. You

12:27literally just say it. It's expressed.

12:28Neither of you takes offense.

12:30I took offense. Jack should have told me

12:32that he needed my help. If you don't

12:34tell me you don't need my help,

12:35you took offense to that.

12:37I'm deeply offended.

12:38Graham. Okay. So, we got we got here.

12:40Remember when I said it in the car? We

12:42were driving over. No, I'm sorry. Macy,

12:44his fiance was driving Graham and I over

12:46here and I said to Graham, "Hey, by the

12:48way, our guest is coming shortly after

12:50we arrive at the carrot house. So, we

12:52need to make sure that we have our

12:53responsibilities delegated. I'm like,

12:55"You do the cameras, I'll do the audio."

12:57And then we get here and Graham does his

13:00cellular device and Instagram and

13:01Twitter and I do the cameras and the

13:04audio. I'm like, like, I don't even

13:05care. I'm I'll happily set up

13:07everything. It doesn't bother me

13:08whatsoever from an egoic perspective,

13:10but it does bother me the fact that

13:11like, hey, this might not be set up

13:12perfectly in time.

13:13I said I set up the cameras. In

13:15fairness,

13:16I thought they looked pretty good.

13:17This What happened with this camera? Was

13:19it a little too too dark?

13:21Little too. It was too bright.

13:22Oh, it was too bright. Right. It was too

13:24bright.

13:24Right.

13:24See this dynamic I almost feel like it's

13:27like this odd couple roommate. Like you

13:30see it in movies.

13:30We've been a lot of things. Not a

13:32couple, but we've been we've been a lot

13:33of

13:34but you start in a different capacity

13:35where Graham you hire Jack to help him

13:37with mailing lists. And so how did Jack

13:41slowly grow in respect

13:43eat my way

13:44and trust in your mind to today where

13:47he's not only a friend, he's a full

13:49business partner on the podcast.

13:51Well, when I initially started doing

13:53like the email management and the the

13:55lists and everything, I knew that I

13:58wanted to make this more of a

14:00partnership than I wanted to make it

14:01like an employee employee relationship.

14:03So he actually offered me payment for my

14:05first job or task or chore that I was

14:08given, but I was like, "No, no, no. I'm

14:09just here to help you out. I want to

14:10provide value to you as much as I can.

14:12And also fortunately, I was living with

14:13my parents, so I didn't really have big

14:15bills to pay. I was working as a buser

14:17as well, and that supported me. And I

14:19was happy to give him all of my time and

14:21efforts and energy to help his business

14:23run as best it can. And then I think

14:24over the long term, I kind of like

14:26reinforced this idea that, hey, like I

14:29am in it for the business, not just in

14:31it for like the check next Friday. And I

14:34think over time, we just ended up

14:36becoming really close friends. And then

14:37also my income is derived from

14:41businesses that I originated the idea

14:44from. So for example like all of my

14:46income at this present moment is from

14:48the iced coffee hour. And the iced

14:50coffee hour was something that I came up

14:51with the idea with. I sourced all of the

14:53audio equipment. I came up with all of

14:55the outlines. I came up with like all of

14:57that stuff. And so I think like like

14:59that's how it ended up I kind of

15:00solidified myself in the business

15:01partnership thing is like you expect

15:03very little upfront and just provide

15:04value and then create profitable

15:07tangential businesses and then take

15:08equity in those.

15:09Grant, how do you take this when a

15:11buster reaches out to you and says I'm

15:12going to be business partners with you

15:14or rather

15:15he never said business. He just said I I

15:16just want to help you. Yeah. He just

15:17said I want to help. I was busy. Um I

15:20didn't have time to do Facebook emails

15:21and I just gave Jack a task. He did it

15:23really quickly. And this was a task that

15:25I was trying to get people to do for

15:26like a month. And I was at the

15:29Oppenheime group. I would ask like uh

15:31because there was like kind of like a

15:32half intern in there and some people

15:34that work there part-time just like

15:35getting started. I would ask them and I

15:37offered like, "Hey, would you do this

15:39like 20 bucks an hour or something? You

15:40could just do it when you're downtime."

15:42Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And then a week

15:44later, hey, how's it going? Oh man, no,

15:46I didn't have time to do that. So Jack

15:48emails me and does it in like a day. And

15:51so that kind of sparked it. And that was

15:53around the same time I was doing my

15:54second channel, the Graham Stefen Show,

15:56where I wanted people to uh come on and

15:59like call in and I give them, you know,

16:00my thoughts on whatever the situation

16:02was.

16:03And I asked Jack and I just said, "Hey,

16:04would you mind filtering through these

16:06emails?" He's like, "Yeah, absolutely."

16:08And he has a good eye, I think, for what

16:11does well on YouTube. Um, and that's

16:14something I think as a viewer, like you

16:15really appreciate that. And when did you

16:17start to see Jack as a friend?

16:21Oh, immediately.

16:21Grand saw me as a friend in B.

16:23Immediately.

16:23Yeah. Oh, wow.

16:24To me, the line the line is blurred

16:26between like right

16:27business partner or like employee and

16:29friend. Like even with Alex like

16:31instantly it was just like friend.

16:33I I never thought of Alex even like

16:37uh as someone who like works under me or

16:39it was always just like

16:40a friend, a friend who gets to work with

16:42you.

16:43Like to me that's always how it's been.

16:44I've never

16:45I love that

16:46understood anything other than that.

16:47Yeah, I'm the same way. I do business

16:48with people who I'm friends with. I've

16:50become friends with people I do business

16:52with because it all sort of blends

16:53together.

16:54So, between the two of you, when did you

16:57feel the most excited about working

17:00together? As you look on your four-year

17:02plus history, when did you feel most

17:05frustrated? That's a good question. The

17:08most excited to work together, I mean,

17:10it was probably like that first time

17:12when he reached out to me. I remember I

17:13was in the car with my girlfriend at the

17:15time and Graham calls me and I see it's

17:17from like an LA based number and I think

17:19it's Graham and I I answer it and I'm

17:22like, "Hello." And he's like, "Hi, this

17:24is Graham Stefen." And I was like, "Oh

17:26my god." And I remember I said that and

17:28I was I was like so like like it it put

17:31me in like a trance. I was like, "This

17:32is the guy I watch online. Like I get

17:34all of my like, you know, financial

17:36knowledge from this guy. Open up a

17:37credit card because of him. I want to

17:38open up a Roth IRA because of him." he

17:40like made this tangible impact on my

17:42life and now I'm talking with him and I

17:43get the opportunity to help him help

17:45more people. It's like oh this is this

17:47is amazing. So I would say like but

17:49obviously every single day I'm grateful

17:51and appreciative of you know the

17:53relationship that we have together and

17:54like there's nothing like that initial

17:56excitement but still I feel like you

17:58know thrilled every day.

18:00And what about the most frustrated?

18:02There's nothing that comes to mind. I've

18:03been thinking about this that the entire

18:05time. You know what I will say?

18:07Sometimes my one pet peeve I'll be

18:10looking at Airbnbs and now Jack is like

18:12cheaper than I am and he'll want to do

18:14like the dumpiest place and I'm like

18:16Jack it's an extra $100

18:18that we're splitting and that's before

18:22tax and so it's like an extra $30. We

18:24get like a nicer place. Jack's like, "Oh

18:26no, we don't really need that though."

18:28So the tables have kind of turned.

18:30The tables have turned because he used

18:32to be that way.

18:32Yes, I I would absolutely

18:34he was the frugal. But now I'm like,

18:35Jack, it's pointless. It's 30 bucks.

18:37Like, stop this. It's like $30. Come on.

18:39It's usually like a hundred, but

18:41Well, $100. But but our but our

18:44enjoyment of the place goes from like a

18:46three to a nine. Like,

18:48okay. So, I not that I just want to let

18:50that slide. I I will see that as like a

18:52business trip. So, I'm usually just

18:54like, hey, we're in and out. We're just

18:55there to sleep and then we got to get on

18:56on the road. You know what I mean? So, I

18:58think of it like it's literally a bed.

19:00If this was something where we're like

19:01trying to take our time and enjoy it,

19:02then I think I could justify spending

19:03more. But if it's just a bed, it's a

19:05bed.

19:05And how have you navigated your

19:07personalities on air as you were as

19:09co-host? I remember when I watched some

19:10of their earlier iced coffee hour pods,

19:12Jack, you're not talking as much.

19:14Mhm.

19:14Mostly Graham.

19:15Yeah. But that was mostly finance.

19:18So when we come in finance topics, I'm

19:20the one I feel like who's like really

19:22into it and they come on knowing that

19:23they're going to talk to me about like

19:25their credit score and where they're

19:26investing.

19:27Now that we're going into more like

19:29political topics, I feel Jack has a

19:31better grasp on that than I do. I I'm

19:34pretty clueless on a lot of issues that

19:36are going on today that Jack is more

19:38like in tune with. So I part of me is

19:40like I don't want to sound like an

19:42idiot. So I like to inquire but I don't

19:45like to be the one who prompts specific

19:47you know questions.

19:48What's really interesting is that Graham

19:50and my interests are like completely

19:53separate. Like the only thing that we

19:55really have like binding our interest

19:57together is like the general financial

20:00stuff. Um, so in the beginning, yeah,

20:02when most of our discussions were

20:03financially based, like he's the expert.

20:06Why am I going to be talking? There's no

20:07there's no point in obviously. And if

20:09people are talking about commercial real

20:11estate in Las Vegas, it's like, okay,

20:13I'm let's be real here. I'm a

20:1425-year-old guy. I don't even own a

20:16rental property. Why should I be talking

20:18on this subject? He's successful in real

20:20estate. I'll let him have I'll let him

20:21have the floor. Um, and I I don't think

20:24I am near the level of knowledge with

20:26like, you know, philosophy or politics

20:28and stuff like that, but that's mostly

20:29where my personal interests lie and uh I

20:32read a lot of books and I watch a lot of

20:33videos and stuff like that. And so I

20:35usually I'll I'll talk more during those

20:36discussions.

20:37Yeah. I've noticed too in comments

20:39there's often dynamic where Graham in

20:41the past sometimes you'd be talking

20:43about how stressed you are, how focused

20:45you are in editing and there would

20:47almost be people being like Graham

20:49you've got to like chill and relax. be

20:50more like Jack. Like as much of the

20:54focus was on the guest, it would

20:55actually just be on the two of you

20:57interacting with each other through the

21:00guest almost.

21:01Sometimes we use the guest as a mediator

21:03or a therapist. I mean, basically,

21:05we like, yo, we've had this

21:06disagreement. Let's get your thoughts.

21:09But it's worked a lot. You know, we get

21:11some really great insights.

21:12When you've done this, what usually are

21:14there topics that you're mediating

21:15through the guests?

21:16Usually, it's a workflow issue or guest

21:18issue.

21:18It's a it's a work issue. A lot of it's

21:20abundance versus scarcity mentality. A

21:22lot of it was the pressure that I felt

21:24from Graham because he is such an

21:26intense pitha from uh

21:29Dr. K, healthy gamer. Everybody says

21:31your pizza.

21:32What's a pitha?

21:32PA is someone who can like put their

21:34head down to the to the grindstone or

21:36whatever the term is. And you could just

21:37grind from like morning till night every

21:40single day doing very like similar

21:42things. Uh I'm very much the opposite.

21:45And so like I work very hard in small

21:46stints and then I take a long break. And

21:48it needs to be different things that

21:49that I'm working on all the time. Uh,

21:51and this was, I feel, feel like, a hard

21:52thing for Graham to understand. It was

21:53really hard for me to understand where

21:54Graham was coming from because his life

21:56on a day-to-day basis sounds like

21:57something I would never want to do. And

21:59my life, I'm sure on a day-to-day basis

22:00sounds like something he would never

22:02want to do. And so, I think feel like

22:03this was always a strong like barrier

22:06for our relationship. But as time has

22:07progressed, we've we've learned to

22:08understand it. Especially to I mean

22:10Graham the fact that you're even

22:12shifting focus from this constant three

22:14upload a week channel indicates a little

22:16bit more of the what is it the Vata

22:18mindset

22:18the vat

22:19yeah it's like a little bit more willing

22:22to try something risky a little less

22:24scared of hey I have to constantly be on

22:26this

22:27I'm curious Jack what are things where

22:29you think Graham has influenced you

22:31this has been a slight insecurity of

22:33mine because I like to see myself as

22:37somebody who sees reality for what it is

22:39rather than through my my the lens of a

22:43life that I have acquired where I like

22:44have you know some the reality is

22:46obscured through the way that I'm

22:47looking at it. Graham is extremely good

22:50at speaking about things in terms of

22:52this is the way that they are and I

22:54often talk about this is the way that

22:56they should be but that doesn't really

22:57take you anywhere. You can complain

22:59about all the external situations and

23:01circumstances that someone's in or that

23:03you're in but it doesn't necessarily

23:05make any progress. And Graham's like,

23:06"Yeah, but this is the way that it is,

23:08so we have to do it this way." And I

23:09feel like he's done a really good job at

23:12impressing upon me the the idea of like,

23:15"Hey, let's let's hold back our emotions

23:16and look, let's look at this from like a

23:19very honest and reality based

23:21perspective." Like even when you look at

23:23the podcast, a lot of it this normative

23:25POV, Jack, like what it should be, what

23:27the podcast could become, a lot of

23:29changes that come from you. What do you

23:30think have been Graham's biggest

23:32contributors regarding, hey, this is the

23:34way it is? He's really good at titles

23:36and thumbnails.

23:37He has high technical, you know, YouTube

23:39skill. I like to think that, you know,

23:41we bounce back and forth now and I've

23:42acquired some of that skill, but I think

23:44he's really good at that. Um, he's an

23:46intelligent person and of course he

23:48brings a very strong audience. So, like

23:50when we initially started the podcast,

23:52like we got that initial boost because

23:54of his main channel. So, I think there's

23:55plenty of things he brings to the table

23:57as well as I just

24:00I think he's very good also at

24:02navigating the conversation in a

24:03structured manner.

24:04I'm a little bit more sporadic. Like,

24:06we'll be talking about one thing and

24:07then I'll just have a question out of

24:09left field that I that I just have been

24:10dying to ask and I just can't help

24:12myself but ask it. But he's very much

24:13like, "Hey, this is how we're going to

24:14be asking these questions in a

24:16chronological or some some manner that

24:19makes sense."

24:19In what ways do you think from a

24:21personality perspective you're similar?

24:23You've talked a little bit how you're

24:24different, more sporadic, more work when

24:26you feel the spark, more grinding on a

24:29consistent basis. What do you think was

24:30that common bond that drew the two of

24:32you together and frankly has carried you

24:34through now four years? I think we have

24:36a common goal for the podcast, which is

24:38purely just make the best episode that

24:40we can.

24:41Um, and there's plenty of times, too,

24:42where I know it's like, hey, if we're

24:44going to lose money on this episode,

24:45like I don't care whatsoever, just if it

24:47if it means we get a good episode out of

24:49it.

24:50Wow. Um, so I'm less concerned about

24:52like obviously I want to make sure that

24:53we're not running at a loss, but it

24:56doesn't bother me anymore. Like I just I

24:58just care about getting a really good

25:00episode. From a philosophical

25:02perspective, Jack, we've had discussions

25:03too around how much of how you think is

25:07determined by your agency versus the

25:09circumstances that have shaped you. And

25:12some could say the success of Ice Coffee

25:14podcast was always meant to be in terms

25:17of how you two came from different

25:19backgrounds, how you met. I'm curious

25:20what do you think how much of it has

25:22come down to on a daily basis you're

25:24like yeah everything comes down to

25:25decisions I make versus how much of it

25:27is like well it's deterministic the

25:30success of this is going to be based on

25:31who I am and who I am is who I am

25:33everything comes down to the decisions

25:34that you make

25:36nothing as far as like my knowledge for

25:38the ice coffee hour has been

25:39predetermined like it was literally

25:41exactly when we made that decision to go

25:43all in on the iced coffee hour that it

25:45started exploding it was our decision to

25:46start posting shorts on the iced coffee

25:48hour that contributed to that it It was

25:49our decision to broaden our audience and

25:51like this is us going against the grain

25:53of probably what like our audience

25:56expected of us to you know to bring on

25:58political uh guests and stuff like that.

26:00So I would say like every decision leads

26:03to an outcome and those decisions we

26:04kind of just make in the in the time.

26:06Yeah. I feel like anything I focus on

26:08it's going to be successful. So just

26:11that's been my experience so far that if

26:12I give something my all it just it works

26:14out.

26:15Have you ever experienced what you've

26:17considered to be failure? Uh, I've made

26:19mistakes for sure, but I wouldn't call

26:21them affiliate. I I try to see any

26:23mistake that I make or that happens. I'm

26:25like,

26:26how could I use this to my advantage?

26:28Like, what's the good that could come

26:30from this? What could I learn from this?

26:32What is this trying to teach me? How

26:33could I apply this in the future? So,

26:35like any losses I take, I'm like, it's

26:37not really a loss if you if you improve

26:39and if you do better. Like, if this one

26:42thing didn't happen here, then I'd make

26:43an even bigger mistake over here. And

26:46because I learned here, like I could

26:48make all these changes and go on a

26:49different trajectory that's going to be

26:50even better in the future. So I try to

26:52think of like

26:53anything that happens like good. Like I

26:55got a speeding ticket um like 3 weeks

26:58ago or something like that. And I'm just

26:59thinking, okay, what if that speeding

27:01ticket meant that I, you know, avoided a

27:04car accident like 10 minutes down the

27:06road and if I didn't get pulled over at

27:07that that exact moment?

27:09You know, like anything bad that

27:11happened. I just I like to think there's

27:13a positive spin on that. I agree. You

27:15win some and you learn some is what they

27:17say.

27:18Have you heard of the story of the sad

27:21clown polychi by chance?

27:23No.

27:24So there's this man who goes to his

27:26doctor one day. He says, "Doctor, I am

27:28sad. I'm depressed." And the doctor

27:30says, "It's okay. Go into town and see

27:32the great clown Polyiachi. He's so

27:35funny. He's hilarious. He'll cheer you

27:36up." And the man turns to the doctor and

27:38says, "But doctor, I am the great Count

27:40Piachi."

27:42Now I think of this in the context that

27:44many entertainers

27:46try hard to bring entertainment to

27:49audiences and others that they

27:50themselves do not possess. I think you

27:52see this the most strongly with

27:53comedians.

27:54Robin Williams extremely funny guy but

27:57you have to ask yourself why is he so

27:59funny? What happened in his life that he

28:01had to try so hard to be funny to feel

28:04valued to become so good at it? And I

28:06think of this because podcasting in a

28:08way it's an extremely pure form of

28:12entertainment and education and

28:13personality like it's not even you have

28:16hey I'm going to talk to you about

28:17interest rates in the year 2023 or let

28:20me tour to you my new house or Jack

28:22another one of your video concepts you

28:23walked 100 miles right

28:26to meet a girl for a date like every

28:28podcast it's people tuning in literally

28:31just to see the two of you talk so the

28:35question I have is hey where does that

28:38impulse come from to want to feel seen

28:41and heard because there are many people

28:43out there they never want their

28:44conversations broadcast and I'm at a

28:47point where I have a good conversation

28:48with anyone in daily life and I'm like

28:49this could have been a great podcast gut

28:52response to that question was I wanted

28:54to create the podcast because I

28:57genuinely thought it would have been

28:58beneficial for the brand for Graham to

29:00be more candid to his audience and I

29:02felt like that would have created a

29:03stronger connection rather than scripted

29:05content That was genuinely where I was

29:06going.

29:07It was actually for you it was very

29:08strategic. It was looking at Graham's

29:10portfolio and where you wanted to take

29:11Graham.

29:12Everything.

29:13Yeah. 100%.

29:14That was that was 100% lacking. So I

29:16think he saw that like hey wow

29:18his audience wants this.

29:20This is the way to do that and I could

29:23spark this.

29:24I thought I could bring that part out of

29:26you to the audience. It was 100% looking

29:27at it for like what is beneficial for

29:29the brand. Especially because you

29:32started off as a real estate agent, then

29:34a personal finance YouTuber. I don't

29:36really think of you as a personal

29:38finance creator, per se. You're a

29:40personality, which Jack, it sounds like

29:43that was always within your goals. What

29:45about for you yourself personally? Did

29:47you also want to become a personality?

29:50Yeah, I did. I tried to when I was a

29:53kid. Like I was one of those Yeah, I

29:55have I have some YouTube videos up

29:56there. Not going to mention where you

29:58can find them. Oh my god, I've done like

30:01skits. I've done gaming. I've done

30:04everything. I used to film uh baseball

30:06card unboxings

30:07and I had like a log of like 50 of those

30:09videos.

30:10This is public though, right?

30:11No, no, the baseball cards. No, but the

30:12other stuff, yes, cuz I snuck it. The

30:14baseball cards, um, I filmed a bunch of

30:16those videos, but unfortunately my

30:18parents thought it was weird. Reasonably

30:19so, that a kid, I was probably 10 at the

30:21time, wanted to post on YouTube, uh, for

30:23the public to see. So, yeah, I always

30:25kind of wanted to be a creator. Um,

30:27unfortunately it wasn't really,

30:30you know, written in the in the cards, I

30:32suppose, at the time. But then obviously

30:33I I pursued this this work with Graham

30:35because I found what he was doing as

30:37extremely meaningful and important and I

30:39was like, "Okay, well maybe this could

30:41be me down the line."

30:42You made your first YouTube video at 10.

30:45Probably somewhere around there.

30:47I think when I was 10 and Grant, maybe

30:48when you were like YouTube wasn't even

30:50like really a thing.

30:51It barely. No, but uh I had a one of the

30:55video cameras and we used to make skate

30:56videos.

30:57You also shot skate videos.

30:59I mean, not to post on the internet, but

31:01like yourself.

31:02Yeah. Oh, yeah.

31:03You used to skate.

31:04I did. You know what? We had a fun one.

31:07We put a uh a laundry machine that

31:09someone was throwing out in an alley and

31:11we put a wooden piece of board over top

31:13of it and we thought it that would be

31:15like, you know, a half pipe.

31:16Yeah.

31:17Um and so a buddy or like a quarter

31:20pipe. What's the name now? It's like the

31:22half pipe is the the half. What's the

31:24quarter? Yeah. So, he's going to drop

31:26down on that and slipped and fell and

31:29his skateboard cut his tongue in half.

31:33And uh you have a video of that. No, we

31:35weren't videoing that, but that was like

31:37later in the day unfortunately. But like

31:38that's the sort of stuff that we would

31:40do. Not like that on purpose, but

31:42that feels like jackass vi

31:45buddy. He was able to ollie like two

31:46feet. It's like crazy. He was a great

31:48skateboarder. Wait, so Graeme, I

31:50remember I've talked with you before.

31:52When you were growing up, you spent a

31:53lot of time on fish forums, like

31:55obsessively posting about fish tanks,

31:57making sock puppet accounts to push your

31:59posts up top. So, you were also out

32:01there skateboarding, filming videos. I'm

32:03like, there's a whole entertainer side

32:05of you. I didn't even realize you had. I

32:07feel like every kid would do that. Yeah.

32:09Just to be a little Yeah. Just like the

32:11video camera. Everyone I knew like would

32:13have like one of those video recorders

32:14and just kind of mess around with it.

32:16with just random old skits or stupid

32:19stuff that kids would do. See, I kind of

32:20like that because hey, why are there so

32:22many more creators than there ever were

32:24before? It's because the technology has

32:25been easier and the desire to create and

32:28be funny and to entertain. Like that's

32:30kind of been in all of us. Like every

32:32kid has that. It's just like when we

32:35grow grow older that gets like slowly

32:37crushed out of us because you're told

32:39like go and work like a real job.

32:41Although you didn't really take that

32:42path and I guess you haven't really

32:43taken that path either. Mhm.

32:45But what do you think? There's not like

32:46a whole generation of folks. Hey, Jack

32:49Doerty is someone who's blowing up a lot

32:52because he was making YouTube videos

32:54from when he was 10 years old and has

32:55continued for his entire life. My fam

32:57also, if you go to the oldest video on

32:59her channel, I think she's 7 years old

33:00and she's showing off like a Barbie

33:03dollhouse.

33:04That's nuts.

33:04And so now there's an entire generation

33:06of people who are making content from

33:08the very beginning. Here's the question.

33:09If you had kids, well, first of all,

33:11would you want to have kids? in a

33:12second. Would you want them to be

33:13YouTubers

33:14one day? I don't pro. I mean, they want

33:18to I don't know. I think unfortunately

33:21for a kid, it would greatly distort

33:25their views on people. I don't think

33:27they can handle comments, criticism to

33:31that degree, people they don't know,

33:33picking them apart, trying to like

33:36analyze every move and like, "Oh, you

33:39could see her parents looked at her this

33:40way. They don't love her." Like I don't

33:42think any of that's healthy. Like I

33:44started doing this when I was 26.

33:47And I feel like even then it was like

33:50tough to kind of get into that. But I

33:51feel like I was at least developed as as

33:53a person to not take it as personally. I

33:55can imagine going through like puberty

33:58or like being like 13 years old and

34:00having someone comment about me. I don't

34:03think I do. I don't think I'd recommend

34:04it. I don't think it's healthy.

34:06Yeah. I would let my kids do it within

34:07reason. I would want to obviously

34:09probably watch the videos before they

34:11posted them. Um, and restricted internet

34:14access for sure for kids, but if they

34:16wanted to post YouTube videos because

34:18this is what I wanted as a kid as as a

34:19kid and I wasn't allowed to. So, I would

34:21I would let my kid.

34:22My initial read when I first met you,

34:25well, first of all, both of you seem

34:26relatively secure,

34:28which is a good thing.

34:29My read was Jack, you always came off

34:32just a slightly bit more anxious and

34:34that Graham, you came off a little bit

34:35more avoidant. I'm someone who's a

34:38little bit more on the anxious side. I'm

34:40curious in the relationship that you've

34:41had with each other, does that bear out?

34:43Does that feel right?

34:44I don't think I don't know. I don't

34:46think so.

34:46I would say between Graham and I, I'm a

34:49little bit more on the avoidant side and

34:51I would say he's he's more on the secure

34:53side

34:54a little bit. Like I would say like like

34:56secure leaning avoidant and he is

34:58secure. Maybe in the beginning I was a

35:00little more anxious

35:01because I wanted to feel appreciated,

35:03you know, and I hadn't really proven

35:05myself yet. And how did you negotiate

35:06that? Especially, hey Jack, you're

35:08starting without the same credibility

35:10that Graham brings into the podcast.

35:12It's a business. When you think about

35:14how you split revenue, how did that

35:16discussion go?

35:17Well, initially it started out as I had

35:19like a I think 15 or 10% of the iced

35:22coffee hour and then slowly

35:23second channel. Started the second

35:25channel. You were Yeah, you started the

35:27second channel. I think it was like 15%

35:28of whatever that channel made or it was

35:30like 12%

35:31of the video that I edited in the first

35:3230 days.

35:33Yeah, that was it. And then COVID

35:36happened. Well, no, CO happened. And

35:37then but but those videos were doing

35:39really really well. And then I think

35:40Jack came to me and says, "Hey, listen.

35:42I I've noticed that the videos I'm doing

35:44now because before I had edited most of

35:46the the reaction videos, um you did the

35:49phone calls, I did like the reaction

35:51videos, and those were the ones that

35:52made like 90% of the money. So I was

35:54like, Jack, if you're getting

35:5615% of the channel, you're getting all

35:58of my residual video editing on the

36:00entire channel. Uh, but I think after a

36:02certain point your videos ended up

36:04making up the vast majority of it. And

36:06I wasn't getting the entire channel

36:09until

36:10until I dropped out.

36:12Until I dropped out.

36:14It was because I was making about

36:18$35 to $4,500 a month before I dropped

36:20out of school.

36:22Yeah. Yeah. It was It was So, it was

36:23Jack dropping out of school and he came

36:26to me.

36:26Oh, wow.

36:27Yeah. because he'd have to go back to

36:28college and like Jack was making like

36:30five six grand a month I think at the

36:31time living in the guest house for free

36:35Jack. So we got

36:35I was not making five six grand. I was

36:37making

36:37I think it was more than that.

36:39No it wasn't. Oh

36:40no no no I was probably making

36:41I was paying you hourly too on top of

36:43that for like random stuff

36:44for random stuff but it wasn't much.

36:46That was probably $900 to $1,000 um a

36:49month. The uh second channel I could

36:51bring up receipts. It was probably 1,500

36:55maybe 2500 between there. That was the

36:57biggest variance thing. And then the

36:58iced coffee hour was like 900 bucks.

37:00I thought it was more. I remembered

37:01more. But regardless, Jack would had to

37:04go back to college and I was like,

37:07things are just ramping up. Now was the

37:09time where I think we got to go full

37:10time on this.

37:11And Jack just gave me a number. He's

37:13like, I I need this amount to be able to

37:16drop out of school and I just need this

37:18secure. And I'm like, I could guarantee

37:20that for a year. And I was like, "If we

37:22do if we have this structure, you'll

37:25make that." And I promised him, I said,

37:28"And if we don't do that, if the channel

37:30goes down, I'll make up the difference.

37:31So, like, you're guaranteed to earn

37:33this, but I think realistically, you

37:34you'll earn a little more, and I'll

37:36guarantee that for a year, cuz I didn't

37:38want Jack to drop out of school."

37:39You felt responsibility.

37:41Yeah. Uh but but it was also that like I

37:44had a lot of confidence that like that

37:47everything was on a very high trajectory

37:49that I wasn't worried about not meeting

37:51those targets. Um and if it did it was

37:54you know it was it wasn't going to be

37:57that big.

37:58What year were you in school?

37:59Uh I was going into my senior year when

38:02I dropped out. So I had one year left.

38:04Graham you tempted him to follow the

38:06same path.

38:06Yeah. But everyone you that was the

38:08early conversations on the podcast.

38:10every guest you drag drug out of

38:11college. Every guest was like, "Yeah,

38:13not every guest, but a vast majority of

38:15the guests were

38:16had done the same." Yeah.

38:17Yeah. But now looking back on it,

38:18obviously I feel like I made the right

38:20choice. And even if I did end up getting

38:22a degree, I don't think that there's a

38:24whole lot of value for degrees outside

38:26of STEM is the uh unfortunate reality, I

38:30think. And I was studying econ, which

38:32could be beneficial maybe if I wanted to

38:34go to further education, but just an

38:36econ degree I don't think would have

38:38taken me where I wanted to go. If you

38:39hadn't done YouTube, what do you think

38:41you would be doing?

38:41Probably law school.

38:42Oh, wow. That was instant.

38:44Yeah.

38:44Yeah. And do you think now the direction

38:47of the channel, iced coffee hour,

38:50continue on 10 million? Do you think,

38:51hey, one day, Jack, do you want to do

38:53your more content or that's sort of all

38:54TBD?

38:55Honestly, I love the iced coffee hour so

38:58much. Like, this is something I have to

38:59like, you know, pinch myself every

39:01single day. It's like, is this really

39:02what I get to do for a living? And yes,

39:05it is hard work. And yes, sometimes we

39:06sacrifice a lot of sleep, which you

39:08wouldn't have to do for a 9 to5. But

39:09let's be real here. I mean, I can lie

39:10down on a couch and I can edit a video

39:13and go get up and take a break whenever

39:14I want. Like that's super nice. We work

39:16hard, but also a lot of the time the

39:18work is, you know, it's just sitting on

39:19a couch on your laptop. So super

39:21fortunate, pinch myself all the time. I

39:23would be happy to do this for the rest

39:24of time. What gets you most excited

39:27about the types of conversations you

39:29want to have nice coffee air upon now

39:30having evolved from personal finance

39:32discussions now to very much a lot of

39:34stuff focus on like philosophy and

39:36politics and hey relationships honestly

39:39experts

39:40yeah I I have a lot of just random

39:43questions that I've always asked myself

39:44throughout my entire life and then

39:46finally being able to ask them to people

39:48that I think would give me a definitive

39:50answer to them is amazing.

39:52What about you Sue? Yeah, I like having

39:54people on that I looked up to as a kid.

39:56Uh like EG Daily for me was like that

39:58was the coolest podcast to ever Yeah.

40:01Tommy Pickles. Like she for me was

40:03probably the the most excited I've ever

40:05been for a guest.

40:06Wow.

40:07Was her. I think it was talking about it

40:08for weeks beforehand. Seeing her in

40:11person was so cool. Uh it just that to

40:15me was like so like to be able to have

40:17like for instance like Keenan Thompson

40:19on Yeah. lose like Josh Peek. Uh, we're

40:22talking Danny Tjo would be like a really

40:24cool one. Arnold Schwarzenegger would be

40:27amazing to be able to have like these

40:28sort of guests on or talk to Tony

40:30Robbins

40:31and I kind of think to them like we're

40:33able to talk to these people for like

40:35two to three hours.

40:37H how much would that be worth if we

40:38were to pay them for their time? I hate

40:40to say it but like but imagine what how

40:43much Arnold Schwarzenegger would charge

40:44his hourly rate.

40:45Yeah. for 3 hours to have this undivided

40:48attention.

40:48I think he could charge 100,000 people

40:51would absolutely do it.

40:52Here we are, Jack and I that get to talk

40:55to like people of that stature and just

40:58pick their brain on topics that we are

41:01interested in and we could ask them

41:03advice on stuff. It's like that's so

41:06cool. So, it's the learning part that

41:08appeals to both of you.

41:09I think so. When you look back at all

41:11the conversations you've had with

41:13guests, have there been moments of

41:14insights or realization that have

41:16changed how you think as people?

41:18I don't know quite change how I think.

41:20Um, it's definitely made me realize that

41:24uh there's not like a one-sizefits-all.

41:27And I see things in everybody that I

41:29agree and disagree with. So I I like the

41:31pick and choose and I'm like, "Oh, this

41:33works really cool for this person. This

41:34works for this person." It's just it's

41:36interesting to me. So it's like you hear

41:37a lot and there's a lot of stuff you're

41:39just like ah but still interesting to

41:40know.

41:41Oh yeah.

41:41Then what about Jack? What about for

41:43you?

41:43Changed the way that I think.

41:44Yeah.

41:45It would be hard for me to point out a

41:46specific thing where it changed the way

41:48that I think but I would say nearly

41:50every single episode I have some shift

41:52in perspective that I kind of just

41:54digest for the next I don't know couple

41:56of weeks or few months even.

41:58I like that. It also too for me I've

42:01heard this joke that men do podcasts

42:04instead of going to therapy. That's

42:06funny

42:07because the idea is you can be friends

42:09with a guy for years and you go play

42:11dinner, you go bowling, you play video

42:14games, and then you put a podcast

42:16microphone in front of their mouse and

42:17that's where they start to say, "Oh, it

42:18all started with my father

42:20and they actually get to share a little

42:22bit more."

42:23The two of you, as we alluded to before,

42:26a lot of times the guest, it's like a

42:27mediator between your own relationship.

42:30I'm curious, what are things that you've

42:32learned about each other in doing these

42:34pots that you otherwise might not have

42:36known?

42:37H

42:39I don't know.

42:40Learned about each other.

42:43You know what's funny? The way that

42:45Graham responded to that, like this is

42:47the type of stuff that I eat up and I

42:49love to think like long and hard. If I

42:51could have like a 10-minute break, I

42:53would love to think about that question

42:54so I can give you back like a really

42:55good answer. But Graham, the way that he

42:58thinks about this stuff is so

43:00interesting to me. It's very much just

43:02like like

43:04gut response, gut reaction, and I don't

43:07know. And also, it doesn't bring me like

43:10value to figure it out. So, it doesn't

43:11matter.

43:12I was about to say it's like I think

43:13it's too deep. Like I don't know.

43:16Fascinating.

43:17Like if it doesn't bring him value to

43:18have an understanding of it or at least

43:20like like uh tangible value, then it

43:24doesn't he doesn't. You like to think

43:25about these things.

43:26Oh yeah. I love it.

43:27It reminds me when one of the earliest

43:29Sherlock Holmes stories, his assistant

43:32Watson comes to him and says, "Hey, like

43:34do you know like how many planets there

43:35are in the solar system?" And Sherlock

43:37Holmes is like, "No." And Watson is

43:40like, "What the hell, man? Like you're

43:41supposed to be smart." And Sherlock

43:42Holmes says, and you know, cognitive

43:44science has since disproved this a bit.

43:46He said, "Your brain is like a room full

43:48of lumber. There's only

43:51so much lumber it can hold. If you want

43:53to put more lumber in, you have to take

43:54the lumber out. So he's like, I Yeah.

43:57He's like, I keep my brain cleaned of

43:58useless pieces of information like how

44:00many planets there are in the solar

44:01system so I can use it to actually solve

44:04clues. Watson, get your gear.

44:06I believe in that though. Like that's

44:08what I'm hearing.

44:08That's one of the reasons I think I'm so

44:09forgetful is because I'm just focused on

44:11a few tasks, but 100%.

44:13And so you tell me anything else, I

44:15don't I don't retain a lot of

44:17information. It's just on like just

44:19doing this one thing.

44:19Because the question I asked, it's one

44:21of introspection, right? I'm basically

44:23asking your relationship with each

44:24other. Hey, how has that evolved if

44:27you've done this podcast together? What

44:28have you learned? And what I'm hearing,

44:30Jack, is you're like, I would really

44:32love to dig into this. But ironically,

44:34you're fascinated by Graham being like,

44:35well, I get along with Graham and the

44:38pot's doing well, so I don't really need

44:40the numbers.

44:41I don't even think about that.

44:42Views are doing well.

44:44I'm highly introspective and I would say

44:47Graeme is not very introspective

44:49whatsoever. I don't see like I think

44:51maybe we are both a little bit on the

44:53extremes cuz it's like okay

44:54introspecting all the time isn't

44:56actually resulting in any like tangible

44:57productivity but at the same time I

44:59think it is important to like know why

45:01you think the way that you think like

45:02the meta of your thinking which I think

45:04Graham doesn't do very much of.

45:06Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Jack, we've had very

45:07long discussions on like free will and

45:10like why we do the things we do and like

45:12the nature of what it means to be a man

45:13in today's just tune out. His eyes like

45:16gloss over during those conversations.

45:17And that baffles me cuz that for me is

45:19like the the most addicting

45:21conversation.

45:21More interest when Jack is like, "Yo,

45:23should I send this text?" And I'm

45:24Oh, yeah. That I know. I know what he

45:26likes too. So, I give him like a little

45:27bit of that too. Throw a dog a bone.

45:30Yeah. Check out this text I'm going to

45:31send to this girl. Do you like it?

45:33It's the perfect partnership, right? So,

45:35let's put the goal at hand. Help Jack

45:37find a lady friend with whom he can one

45:39day have kids who he's clearly going to

45:40allow to go on YouTube.

45:42You're approaching this from the

45:43perspective of like,

45:44what do I want in myself as a partner?

45:48Am I anxious? Am I avoidant? Like, what

45:49are women interested? You're coming from

45:51Jack. Let's take a look at your profile

45:53pick.

45:53I don't sound like that.

45:55Yeah, he sounds exactly

45:57Come on.

45:58That's very much the way that we handle

46:00this. By the way, that was my impression

46:02of Jack doing an impression of you.

46:04That is very bad. That is very bad.

46:06I have heard Jack do his voice.

46:08Save yourself there

46:09a few times. Yeah. You know, I put a

46:10little I'm putting it on Jack now. Yeah.

46:13But no, that's what I was saying. You

46:14look at him and you're like, "Let's

46:16review the pics you have in your dating

46:17app." And what's so funny is I feel like

46:19I'm in between you two. We've had a lot

46:21of emotional discussions. I'm with

46:22Graham. Jack, I've looked at your Hinch

46:24pics. They suck. Okay. Hey, so Graham,

46:27so you're much more task focused, much

46:29more resultsoriented. You're like, "All

46:30right, hey, let's not wax and wayne in

46:32the nature of anxious versus avoidant

46:34styles. Just figure out what's the best

46:35photo, what's the best message to send

46:37them."

46:37Yeah.

46:37So, I'm curious then even when it's on

46:40the pod that you host with guests, like

46:42what are the conversations? Is it just

46:43getting practical knowledge like here's

46:45how you can buy a house at below market

46:47rate? Like here's how you can

46:49potentially profit off the next big

46:50trend. Are those things that spark your

46:53interest then?

46:54Yeah, I would say so. I mean, there's a

46:56formula to it. I mean, we have like a

46:58very basic script for anybody that we

47:00could use like like a a template from

47:02beginning to end and then like within

47:04that template, we'll just throw in some

47:05personality based stuff in there.

47:07I think we kind of have a structure and

47:08an understanding of what we know will do

47:10well for the iced coffee hour and

47:11Graham's very good at kind of adhering

47:12to that.

47:13What does well,

47:14I would say general discuss, high level

47:16discussions about, you know, for the

47:18longest time at least, like real estate,

47:19the market. Now, we know generally

47:21speaking, if it's a a political,

47:23especially conservative, uh, guess that

47:25it's going to do pretty well out the

47:27gate. Um, and Graham's really good at

47:29kind of like honing into those sorts of

47:30conversations. And then I'm kind of like

47:32the kite. He's kind of like the string

47:33where I'll just say something out of

47:34left field that I think somehow keeps

47:36the audience engaged and kind of like

47:38drives the conversation through this

47:40kind of like weird.

47:40Yeah. You have a pattern with each

47:42other. So, the last thing I'd like you

47:43to do is something that I did with my

47:44co-founder in co-founder therapy, which

47:47I'll tell you is basically couples

47:50counseling, except it's with your

47:52co-founder. I'm curious, have the two of

47:53you ever gone to therapy session

47:55together?

47:55No.

47:56Well, your relationship is strong and

47:57plus you have podcasts with multiple

47:59Harvard trained psychiatrists.

48:01True.

48:02So, I assume that essentially is your

48:03therapy. Mhm.

48:04So, for this exercise, for about a

48:06minute each, what we're going to do is

48:09I'm going to ask each of you to share

48:11what you appreciate about the other

48:12person. That's it. And the other

48:14person's not allowed to reply because

48:15the thinking is a lot of times, how

48:18often do you just get appreciation,

48:20which is different from, hey, thank you

48:22for doing X. Thank you for driving me

48:24here. Thank you for sending up the

48:25camera. Thank you for asking that really

48:27good question. Not for specific,

48:30not so much for specific items, but more

48:33for parts of them, qualities you

48:35appreciate about them, and the other

48:36person can't say anything back. How's

48:38that sound? Good.

48:40I can sense Jack I feel is more like,

48:43yeah. And you're more like,

48:44oh, here we go again. Jeez.

48:48All righty. So,

48:49Jack, we'll start with you.

48:50Yeah.

48:51One minute. I want you to share

48:52appreciation for Graham. Not so much, oh

48:56hey, you did X and that was good, but

48:58for him as a human being.

48:59So, if I'm going to say what I

49:01appreciate in Graham, and the funny

49:02thing is like a lot of people would love

49:03it if you were just saying how you

49:04appreciate them for a minute straight.

49:06Graham just brush all this.

49:08I can tell even even your stance, you're

49:10just like, eh,

49:11all right, I don't need it.

49:12I would say I appreciate Graham for

49:14obviously taking a chance on me. Uh

49:16that's, you know, it changed my life

49:18immensely. Uh, I would say thank you to

49:23Graham for

49:26for being a really good person. And I

49:29say that in the most genuine way that I

49:31can possibly say it. I always have this

49:33fear that the people that are going to

49:34have some level of like power or like

49:36the people with the microphone are going

49:38to be spreading some sort of message

49:39that's really negative or maybe they're

49:42spreading a positive message but it's

49:43not genuine and then you get to know

49:45them and they're actually kind of a

49:46crummy person. I can say with extreme

49:49confidence after knowing Graham for

49:50several years and being observant

49:52towards tiny little things that he does

49:54like a you know there's a insect in the

49:56house and he has to collect it in the

49:58cup and he has to put it outside cuz he

50:00doesn't want to kill it or the way that

50:02he treats certain people or service

50:03workers and stuff like that. Um, and

50:05it's the small things that he does when

50:07he doesn't think people are watching

50:09that just has proven to me over time

50:10that I can say that he's a genuinely

50:13great person. And um, I'm happy to to be

50:16friends, business partners, and

50:17associated with him. And I'm glad that

50:19he has a platform.

50:19Graham, what would you Well, first I'm

50:21curious, how does appreciation work with

50:23you? Is it the sort of thing that you

50:24take in or the sort of thing you're just

50:26like, eh, usually eh?

50:29is their praise and feedback that makes

50:32you feel good or you're more of a like

50:33results and action type of guy.

50:35Feedback is a one out of 10 on the

50:36YouTube algorithm. That's that's the

50:38feedback that you like.

50:39That makes a lot of sense. So, what does

50:41Jack do that you do feel appreciated by?

50:44Wait, what does Jack do that I feel?

50:46Yeah. Like when you What does he do?

50:48Maybe it's not feedback and like words

50:50of praise, but are there things he does

50:52where you're like, "Yeah, this is how I

50:54feel like Jack gives a cares about me.

50:57Is this my minute or is this like

50:59No, this is just a free form question.

51:01Yeah.

51:02Uh,

51:05for the record, I won't be offended if

51:06he doesn't say anything because I

51:07understand that we look at these sorts

51:09of things differently.

51:10Yeah, we do.

51:11Uh, I would say Well, I I was going to

51:15say like he really takes my opinions

51:16into consideration, but then again, he

51:18disagrees with me on a lot of things and

51:20that's fine.

51:21That was the most backhanded.

51:23No, I think it's good though. You know

51:25what I mean? It's a good good one. I I'm

51:27not just a yes man, you know.

51:29Yeah. Uh I would I would rather just do

51:32the minute. They're all going to be the

51:34same thing. We'll do the minute then.

51:35What's What's the main thing you

51:37appreciate about Jack?

51:38All right. Start the minute. I want to

51:39see this. I want to look I want to make

51:40sure you're starting. You starting

51:42slow.

51:43Oh, I'm starting. Oh, it's it's odd.

51:46I got to clear my voice now. Now, I

51:48think I like Jack's loyalty. I think he

51:52has proven himself that he is, thousand%

51:54dedicated to whatever he sets his mind

51:56to. like he's there uh very selfless. I

51:59think he cares about the overall picture

52:01more than Jack cares about himself,

52:04which I really admire. Um I think he's

52:07very consistent. I really appreciate

52:10that. Um, I think his integrity is very

52:14high, that he wouldn't do anything to

52:17like screw anybody over, and I like the

52:19fact he's very fair, and that, you know,

52:22even if that means he might earn less or

52:25make less money, it's just like the fair

52:27thing to do. And I think there's a lot

52:29of commonalities that we have between

52:30that that like I stand behind that. I

52:33like to think of myself as the the same

52:35way of just, hey, this is fair. We could

52:38agree on this. any disagreements we have

52:40is is usually um either a discussion or

52:42a coin flip. I'd say we resolve most

52:45things with coin flips. And just the

52:47fact that he's open to the idea of like,

52:49hey, we disagree on this. I don't think

52:51either one of us, let's just flip a

52:52coin. And we're we're cool with the

52:53outcome of that. Like we had a situation

52:55with something stupid, how much to

52:57withdraw from the joint bank account.

52:59And I said one number and Jack said

53:01another number. And I'm like, I think we

53:03just do this. You think we How about we

53:05just flip a coin? And Jack's like, yeah,

53:07cool. And I trusted Jack to flip the

53:10coin on my behalf and whatever it was

53:12like Jack could have just kept flipping

53:14the coin be like oh there it is and been

53:15but I trusted him a thousand% like if

53:17it's if if I won that and and I won it

53:21great but if I lost it I would never

53:23question like

53:24did he actually have Olymp

53:27so like I I trust I I think trust is is

53:30everything and I trust Jack a thousand%.

53:32So, a few thoughts. The first one, my

53:35personal theory is, yeah, you guys are

53:37very compelling personalities. You ask

53:39smart questions. You have credibility

53:41already coming from your main channel.

53:42That relationship, that trust between

53:44you, I think, is the most precious part

53:47of the Ice Coffee Hour podcast because I

53:48watch it. I'm like, "Oh, these guys,

53:50they're not just doing this on camera.

53:52They actually enjoy each other and

53:55appreciate and respect each other even

53:57though they're clearly very different,

54:01right? Like despite all me, man.

54:04Despite all the ways you're different, I

54:05think that core concept around fairness,

54:08integrity, respect, being being smart,

54:11but being open-minded. I think that's

54:13the strongest thing that pulls you

54:14together. The second thing, what the

54:16guys a coin flip.

54:17Oh yeah, we do that all the time.

54:19Yeah, it was funny cuz I was like I was

54:22I was really hoping I would win cuz it

54:24was stupid. Graham wanted a round number

54:27even like a very even number and I was

54:30like it doesn't matter. let's just make

54:31it so it makes financial sense, which

54:33was withdrawing a little bit more money.

54:34And Grant was like, "No, no, we need to

54:36withdraw like the exact round number cuz

54:38it looks good." And I'm like, "Well, you

54:39know, we're going to be losing money cuz

54:40it would be in high savings

54:41matter if it looks better."

54:43I just prefer a nice even number.

54:44And I thought it was so stupid, but

54:46whatever. Who am I to argue with that,

54:48right? It's like it's a it's a 50-50

54:49thing. So, I'm like, "Okay, like we're

54:50just going to agree on a coin toss. It

54:52doesn't matter." So, I film myself. I'll

54:53send you this video of me asking uh

54:55Alexa for a coin toss. And

54:57unfortunately, she sided with him. I

54:59just want to say that's the funniest way

55:00I've ever heard people ever resolve

55:02disagreements.

55:02But you know what I've done that also

55:04with Alex in terms of because we have

55:07like every six months with Alex we would

55:08have like a pay negotiation and he'd

55:11come to me and say I want this amount

55:12and I say well I could raise you up to

55:15this amount and we have a difference and

55:17we resolve this with coin flips.

55:19My income like the percentage I was

55:20getting from the the Graham Stefen show

55:22was decided on a coin flip. But now in

55:24fairness, I have lost every single coin

55:27flip when it comes to

55:28to revenue split

55:29to to revenue splits or income. Like

55:31Alex, I think I think we did two to

55:33three coin flips. He won all of them.

55:36Now, we could have, by the way, settled

55:38in the middle. Like he we've openly said

55:41we can meet in the middle, but I thought

55:42it'd be fun to just flip a coin. And

55:45it's like, hey, you get everything you

55:46want or I get everything I want.

55:48And you feel good with it. You see the

55:49results and you're like, I respect the

55:51contest.

55:52Yeah. But but you know what? But also in

55:54Alex is 100% on board with that decision

55:56and would have been, you know, just as

55:58thrilled either way. And I was okay

56:01losing to that and giving Alex more on

56:04the basis of that's what he wanted and

56:06he's okay with a coin flip. It's okay.

56:08Same with Jack and the the the channel.

56:10We had like a 3% difference or something

56:13on the revenue split and instead of just

56:15like I think we both agreed we could

56:17split it in the middle, but I was like,

56:18"No, I think the coin flip. This is fun.

56:20Let's do the coin flip." If someone came

56:22to you and said, "I would give you a

56:24million more subs on the iced coffee

56:25hour channel." Like real viewers,

56:27but flip a coin. And if it's Tails, you

56:30lose what you have. Would you take that?

56:32No.

56:32No. It's But it's got to be It's got to

56:34be reasonable.

56:35You know, if it was you would lose a

56:37100,000 subscribers, but you could gain

56:40200,000. I would take that coin flip. If

56:42it's losing everything, no. Because

56:44that's that's

56:45philosophy. Yeah. The difference between

56:48zero and a million is way bigger than

56:50So you're literally calculating the

56:51expected value. You're like, "Hey, we

56:54disagree. The expected value is fair.

56:56Let's put this up to coin flip." Have

56:58you done this before? Always.

56:59No, not for that. No. For a loss thing

57:01like this, absolutely. But for payment,

57:03never. It's

57:04Well, also growth is usually

57:05exponential. So the difference between

57:06one and two is, you know, smaller than

57:08But even like salary negotiation, that's

57:10a

57:10No, because I'm fine with it. Like, no,

57:12because I think for something, you know,

57:14if if Alex is working hard, and he is, I

57:18don't care for paying him more,

57:20but you know, if we have a disagreement

57:22on he's, you know, at this and I'm here,

57:25and we both agree to meet in the middle,

57:27but we're both okay flipping a coin,

57:28then it work

57:29then it works. And you know what? And he

57:31and he won like three times in a row.

57:33Alex has insane luck with coin flips. He

57:35does have insane luck. But I also think

57:36there's a big part here uh that Graham

57:39has never tried to like nickel and dime

57:41us ever. Like we do sometimes over

57:44expenses like an Airbnb, but over like

57:47our income or something like that. Like

57:48it has never been

57:49nickel and dime the small stuff.

57:51Exactly. In the same way that I feel

57:53like you know we haven't really tried to

57:54nickel and dime him. It's like okay well

57:55it's fine left up to a coin flip. It's

57:57like I'm going to be able to put a roof

57:59over my head either way.

58:00Yeah. You know the one thing if if

58:01anyone ever comes to me and they're like

58:02hey I'm unhappy. I feel under and there

58:06you know there have been discussions

58:08where it's like hey you did this or you

58:11acted in this way or you said this thing

58:13and I didn't feel good about it. We talk

58:15about it and we we immediately squash it

58:18and I'm you know it's very

58:19straightforward. Last question. Have you

58:21ever resolved disagreements with your

58:22fiance with coin flips? Does that work?

58:25I don't think I've ever I don't think I

58:27tried. I don't think she'd be down with

58:28that.

58:28I don't think she would like that. Um,

58:30yeah. I don't think

58:31because we don't have disagreements on

58:33like there's there's not like a like a

58:35payroll or anything like that. Like

58:37usually the coin flips we have are money

58:39related. It's like

58:41you know what we have done a few things

58:43on. Well, usually like Macy and I'll do

58:45like $5 bets on like who's right about

58:48something and I'll be like I'm so conf

58:50it's five bucks. Yeah.

58:51I say it's 50/50 who ends up getting it.

58:53But no, I only solve money things with

58:56coin flips. I've never solved like I

58:58think I'm right, you think you're right.

58:59Let's flip a coin to see who's right.

59:00Like that's that's kind of weird.

59:02Jents, thanks so much for making time

59:04today and sharing this little slice of

59:06life group therapy time for the iced

59:08coffee hour.

59:08A thanks so much.

59:10Thanks for letting us use your studio.

59:12By the way,

59:12massive shout out to Tri Carrot guys,

59:14the best credit card on the market.

59:16Massive shout out to Jack and Graham.

59:18Just lovely, high integrity human beings

59:21who will potentially bet your life on a

59:23coin flip.

59:24No, no, not lives. But hey, if you if

59:26you got 10 grand,

59:27then he'll do it.

59:28He's a better man. All right, thanks so

59:30much. Thanks, man.

59:30All right, let's stop this. Oh my god.