Politik und Medien - Der Professor und der Wolf (Episode 8)

0:00And then there's the bad habit of

0:02trying to put personal pressure on

0:04journalists , but all your own

0:06experience is better and you have a

0:08really great coffee break for our show .

0:11That's right , I don't just have that

0:13for our show , I've had something to say

0:14since Ibiz became famous . There's a

0:16saying on it from Heinz Christian

0:18Strache . Journalists are the biggest

0:20on the planet anyway .

0:26ZIP 2 and Radio FM4 present the

0:29Professor and the Wolf .

0:34This is a podcast on Austrian politics

0:37with Peter Filzmeier and Armin Wolf .

0:42Hello from the FM4 studio to the eighth

0:44and final regular episode of our

0:46podcast Professor Unterwolf on Austrian

0:49politics with Professor Peter Filzmeier

0:51, political scientist at the

0:53universities in Graz and Krems and I am

0:55the Wolf Armin Wolf . I am a journalist

0:58and host ZIP 2 on OR2 . Hello Peter .

1:01Hello Armin . And today we want to talk

1:04about a topic that naturally concerns

1:06us both , namely the relationship

1:08between politics and the media . Who is

1:11more dependent on whom ? What has

1:14changed due to social media ? Why is the

1:17media landscape in Austria so special

1:19and different from other countries ? And

1:21are politics and the media too close ?

1:24And because this is the eighth and

1:26final regular episode of our podcast ,

1:29we've already talked a lot in seven

1:31episodes and unfortunately made several

1:33mistakes . We want to correct them at

1:35the end of today's episode . And stay

1:37tuned , you'll also find out what else

1:39we've found out about the party

1:41in the meantime .

1:43But first , let's talk about our actual

1:45topic today : politics and the media in

1:47Austria . What's the biggest

1:48misunderstanding about this topic , oh

1:50my god ? The biggest possible nonsense

1:53is that the Austrian broadcaster ORF ,

1:56where you work as a public broadcaster ,

1:59belongs to the state and is a state

2:02broadcaster . We'll definitely discuss

2:04why that's nonsense .

2:06Exactly . Uh , what we're talking about

2:08today is your actual area of expertise ,

2:11namely political communication . What

2:13does that actually mean ?

2:14Political communication consists of

2:17three parts : information , participation

2:19, and persuasion . First of all ,

2:21politics also requires the

2:23dissemination of information . Imagine

2:25laws being passed and none of us

2:27getting any notice of it . This is the

2:30function that the mass media performs .

2:32But because we do not live in a

2:34dictatorship , this cannot be a matter

2:36of information being conveyed only from

2:38the top down , from politics to the

2:39population . It is also about

2:41involvement and participation . Citizens

2:43must also be allowed to articulate

2:46their opinions . They must make wishes

2:48and demands of politics and so on and

2:50so forth . And it is also about

2:52persuasion . In election campaigns , the

2:54form in which this is done is clear .

2:55Politicians and parties try to convince

2:58us to vote for them . But a health

3:01ministry , for example , also tries to

3:03convince people to go for preventive

3:05check-ups , to smoke and drink less , or

3:08to get vaccinated against the flu and

3:10corona . And why do politicians need the

3:13media for this ? There is a somewhat

3:15complicated concept of systems theory

3:17in political science . A modern , complex

3:20society consists of subsystems that

3:22have specific tasks , otherwise society

3:25and our coexistence would not function .

3:27For example , politics , as we have

3:29already learned in previous episodes ,

3:31makes generally binding decisions that

3:34regulate our lives . These include

3:36school education laws , tax law and road

3:39traffic regulations . And unless you are

3:41an anarchist by conviction , you will

3:44agree that we need certain rules . And

3:46the media system is the communication

3:49channel . All these decisions and

3:51decision-making processes of politics

3:53would exist in a vacuum if they were

3:55not communicated through the media . In

3:58the old days , it was a herald who

3:59announced it in the marketplace . Today ,

4:02it is modern mass media . Social media ,

4:04too , has of course changed things a bit

4:07– we will talk about that a bit later

4:09– but there are some critics who say

4:11that the importance of the media goes

4:14so far that the media dominates

4:16politics , that we live in a so-called

4:18mediocracy and politics has to adapt to

4:21the rules of the media . Is that so ?

4:23That is partly true . Because mediocracy

4:26would also mean that parties or

4:28political actors in general are always

4:30just following the media and their

4:33wishes and demands . A very simple

4:35example : the media are very up-to-date ,

4:38often even hourly , and therefore put

4:40insane time pressure on politics . When

4:43the media landscape thinks that a

4:45solution has to be found tomorrow

4:47morning for a complex and complicated

4:49issue , then politicians are tempted to

4:52present something that is not the best

4:54solution . And when it comes to the

4:56relationship between politics and the

4:58media , I like to quote my favorite film

5:00, Wag the D , an American feature film ,

5:02very loosely translated by me as When

5:04the Tail Wags the Dog . But that is

5:07ultimately what the relationship

5:08between politics and the media is all

5:09about . Who is the tail ? Who is the dog ?

5:11Who is trying to wag whom and who can

5:14influence whom more ?

5:15There is also the exact opposite

5:17criticism , namely that politics

5:19dominates the media through an

5:20increasingly sophisticated staging of

5:23politics , through more and more

5:24employees for public relations , through

5:26so-called spin doctors and through

5:28message control . What is the truth in

5:30this ? Of course , political actors have

5:33a great interest in presenting their

5:35point of view and precisely this view

5:37of things . In giving the matter the

5:39right spin in political communication .

5:41Hence the term spin control , and

5:44politics also has an interest in

5:46communicating as consistently as

5:48possible , at least within the

5:50government , within a party . This is

5:52then message control or message control

5:55. This does not always have to be a bad

5:57thing , because we experienced a scene

5:59during the corona pandemic where the

6:01health minister and a state governor

6:03announced almost simultaneously that

6:04there would be a lockdown or that there

6:06would be no lockdown . And when

6:08journalists pointed out , sorry , your

6:10statements do not seem to match up

6:12completely , they still did not agree in

6:15their communication on whether the

6:17lockdown only applies to the

6:18unvaccinated or to everyone living in

6:20Austria , whether it is limited to a

6:22specific region or applies to the

6:24entire country . So , message control

6:26could have had a positive aspect in

6:29that regard . But of course , one also

6:31tries to convey messages in the

6:32interest of the campaign and to get

6:34people and often to get the media on

6:36track so that they report the same

6:38things . Now , this attempt by

6:40politicians to deal with the media

6:41professionally is something completely

6:43new , to put it neutrally . Not even 50

6:46years ago , Austria had the famous media

6:48chancellor Bruno Kreiski . Back then ,

6:51that was completely new , but what was

6:52so different about Kreiski or Abgreiski

6:54compared to the previous relationship

6:56between politics and the media ? That he

6:58was accessible to journalists . Bruno

7:00Greiski was Federal Chancellor from

7:021970 to 1983 and before his time , an

7:06interview with the respective Federal

7:08Chancellor was a huge state affair ,

7:10because organizing it alone was

7:11necessary . The appointment had to be

7:14requested weeks or even months in

7:16advance . The questions had to be

7:18submitted to the Federal Chancellor or

7:20his office in advance . And then not

7:22just any old journalist could conduct

7:24this conversation with the Chancellor .

7:26Only editors-in-chief were allowed to

7:27do so . There were no female

7:29editors-in-chief at that time . Bruno

7:31Greiski could really be reached by

7:33telephone for journalists . In the

7:35morning , very early in the morning , he

7:37was often caught directly and he

7:39introduced something that had been an

7:41institution in the relationship between

7:43politics and the media for almost half

7:44a century , namely the press conference

7:46after the weekly cabinet meeting of the

7:48federal government . There was simply no

7:51way that journalists would be protected

7:53behind a lectern like at a press

7:56conference . Anyone could ask him

7:58anything and he was also very keen to

8:01cleverly place his desired questions

8:03and messages . However , one thing has

8:05changed since Kreiske took office . In

8:07the meantime , politics has many more

8:09public relations workers , press

8:12officers , PR experts and so on and so

8:14forth , and there are fewer and fewer

8:17political journalists in comparison .

8:19That is probably true . And something

8:21else seems to have changed in recent

8:22years . The international organisation

8:25Reporters Without Borders compiles a

8:27global ranking of press freedom every

8:29year . And in recent years , Austria has

8:31slipped further and further down the

8:33list . In 2022 , it even dropped 14

8:36places to 31st place , behind countries

8:39like Namibia and East Timor . Is the

8:42situation regarding press freedom in

8:44Austria really that bad ?

8:45It has gotten worse . At the time of our

8:48conversation , the corruption

8:49prosecutor's office was even conducting

8:51an investigation . Whether there might

8:53have been forms of media corruption , we

8:56do not yet know how it will end . But

8:58even beyond the criminal law

8:59implications , it has become

9:01increasingly common among political

9:03actors to only invite certain favorable

9:05media outlets and journalists to press

9:08conferences or background discussions ,

9:10i.e. not to provide information to

9:12others , to pass on information to media

9:14outlets or journalists from whom one

9:16hopes to receive compliant reporting .

9:18In recent years , we have witnessed a

9:20moral picture of how politics views the

9:23media . In the Ibiza video , the later

9:25Vice Chancellor Heinz Christian Strache

9:28could be seen trying to sell the

9:30country's largest daily newspaper , the

9:32Gronenzeitung , to an alleged Russian

9:34oligarch in order to ultimately employ

9:37party scribes there instead of

9:39journalists . And we've also had chats

9:41with the editor-in-chief of the ORF and

9:43the editor-in-chief of the daily

9:45newspaper Die Presse , where politicians

9:47have arranged things with each other .

9:49And then there's the bad habit of

9:51trying to put personal pressure on

9:53journalists , but you know better from

9:55your own experience and you have a

9:57really great coffee break for our show .

10:00That's right , I don't just have that

10:01for our show , I've had something to say

10:03about it since Ibiza became known .

10:05There's a saying on it by Heinz

10:06Christian Strache : Journalists are the

10:08biggest on the planet anyway .

10:11Strache has said that in Ibiza among

10:14other stupid things . Um , Strache also

10:17said at the time that he wanted a media

10:20landscape for Austria like Orban's in

10:23Hungary , where there are hardly any

10:25independent media outlets left . Um , in

10:28recent months , the term " advertising

10:31corruption " has also been mentioned

10:33again and again . That was briefly

10:35mentioned earlier . What does that mean ?

10:37Advertisement

10:37corruption was even nominated as the

10:40word of the year 2021 by the University

10:43of Graz , where I work . It is therefore

10:45a relatively recent neologism , but it

10:47describes a possibly very old

10:49phenomenon , because politicians are of

10:51course also authorized to make

10:53decisions about placing advertisements ,

10:55for example because a ministry

10:57advertises , because other government

10:59departments advertise , because federal

11:02states , because local authorities

11:04advertise . This is not always something

11:06terrible or horrible either . If the

11:08Ministry of Health advertises for

11:09healthy nutrition for children , no one

11:11will consider that reprehensible . It

11:13only becomes problematic if there is no

11:15discernible added value in terms of

11:17content , no informational value in the

11:19advertisement . In other words , the only

11:21advantage is the indirect advertising

11:23for the government department and the

11:24advantage of money , namely the

11:26financing of the advertisements , for

11:27the medium . If it is unclear why some

11:30media outlets receive particularly high

11:32rates and therefore money , while others

11:34receive relatively little , or if the

11:36prices simply appear excessive .

11:38And if there is also the suspicion that

11:40those media outlets that report more

11:42favorably about the government might

11:44get a higher rating or that the

11:45relationship is the other way around - a

11:47higher rating might lead to friendlier

11:49reporting , which would of course be

11:51completely unprofessional and incorrect

11:53. I think we need to talk about the

11:55media landscape in Austria at this

11:56point , which is quite unusual compared

11:58to other European countries , something

11:59that perhaps not all of you who are

12:01listening and watching us are aware of .

12:03For one thing , there are only very ,

12:05very few countries in which public

12:07broadcasters , in our case the ORF , are

12:09so dominant on radio , television and

12:11online , because most countries have

12:13strong private broadcasters .

12:15In Austria , with the exception of

12:17Albania , the ORF had the longest

12:20monopoly of all democratic European

12:22countries until the mid - 1990s . That

12:25means that unless you lived in the

12:27border region with Bavaria , for example

12:29, and could also watch German

12:31television , you could only watch ORF1

12:33and ORF2 on television , and only

12:35receive ORF radio programs . And because

12:38cable and satellite television only

12:40became popular in the 80s and 90s ,

12:42there was no alternative to this

12:44monopoly . But I would like to turn the

12:47tables and ask you , how can you explain

12:50the fact that in a democracy , in a free

12:52country , there is a law ? There can only

12:55be one television station , and if you ,

12:56as a private individual , want to set up

12:58a radio or a television , then you are

12:59not allowed to do so .

13:01Well , you have to understand this

13:02historically from the fact that

13:04television and radio used to be very

13:05complicated technical matters . There

13:07were only very , very few frequencies ,

13:09and in contrast to the USA , the

13:10decision was made in Europe not to give

13:12these few frequencies to private

13:14entrepreneurs who wanted to get rich

13:16with them , but to give them to the

13:18public . But after the experiences of

13:20the Nazi era and the dictatorship ,

13:22people said , we won't give it to the

13:24state , so we won't establish state

13:25broadcasters , that wasn't a good

13:27experience at all , but rather public

13:29broadcasters modeled on the BBC . The

13:31ORF doesn't belong to the state , it

13:33belongs to the public . So the ideal is

13:35that we belong to the license fee

13:38payers . Technically , the ORF owns

13:40itself , but it is not a state

13:42broadcaster , and that is very , very

13:43important ,

13:44which also clarifies the term public

13:46broadcasting , as promised . There are

13:49also relatively few daily newspapers in

13:51Austria , there was never a monopoly .

13:53There used to be many , many more daily

13:55newspapers , now there are 14. One of

13:57them is the Wiener Zeitung , which is

13:58actually a state newspaper , but it is

14:00set to be discontinued soon . The most

14:02important thing , however , is that there

14:04is a very unusual level of

14:06concentration in this daily newspaper

14:07market .

14:08We have , and things weren't better in

14:10the past either , the lowest number of

14:12daily newspapers in almost all of the

14:14world in democratic countries , namely

14:17in relation to the population , and now

14:19excluding small states . There is only

14:21one newspaper in the Vatican , but very ,

14:23very few people live there . And in

14:25addition to this concentration of press

14:28, there are also economic and

14:29entrepreneurial interdependencies , e.g.

14:32the largest daily newspaper in the

14:34country , the Kronenzeitung , and the Kur

14:36newspaper , another very large newspaper

14:38, belong to a Mediaprint group . We also

14:41have media concentration at the federal

14:43state level . Everywhere , or almost

14:45everywhere , there is a leading state

14:47newspaper , the Vorelberger Nachrichten

14:50in Velberg , which has also merged into

14:52a group with the second daily newspaper

14:55, the Vberger , which also publishes

14:57radio , has an internet portal , and so

15:00on and so forth . There is the Tiroler

15:02Tageszeitung in Tyrol , the Salzburger

15:04Nachrichten in Salzburg , the

15:05Oberösterreichische Nachrichten and

15:07the Kleine Zeitung in Steimar ,

15:09Carinthia . Only Lower Austria and

15:10Burgenland do not have their own daily

15:12newspaper .

15:13Which is quite interesting for a state

15:15as large as Lower Austria . And the last

15:17point , in hardly any other country in

15:19the world are tabloid newspapers as

15:21strong as in Austria . The Corona

15:23newspaper today and OE24 together reach

15:26about half of the entire newspaper

15:28audience . And the political scientist

15:31Fritz Blasser , whom we both know from

15:33our studies and you also as a colleague

15:35, once called Austria a tabloid

15:37democracy for this reason . What do you

15:39mean by that ? Fritz Blasser and I

15:41worked together for a long time at the

15:43University of Innsbruck , and we also

15:45wrote several books together , although

15:47not about polar democracy , or at least

15:49not in our sense , namely about the

15:50political system of the USA . Fritz

15:53Blasser means a kind of informal ,

15:55unofficial coalition between political

15:57decision-makers , i.e. governments , and

16:00leading tabloid newspapers , where they

16:02work together to find a pact : What is a

16:05topic that is not necessarily important

16:07, but is popular , with which the

16:09newspaper can increase its reach , gain

16:12subscribers and readers and of course

16:14make politics more popular , in the

16:16sense of increasing the chances of

16:19being elected . A classic example is the

16:21Animal Welfare Act , something that is

16:24very popular . And the Kronenzeitung has

16:26an even more popular animal section ,

16:27for ten years , and was of the opinion

16:29that there had to be a new animal

16:31welfare law . The federal government at

16:33the time and Wolfgang Schüssel as

16:34Federal Chancellor promised this , and

16:36promptly the Federal Chancellor

16:38appeared on the front page of the

16:39Gronenzeitung in a very nice picture

16:41with an animal , I think it was my

16:42turtle . However , it can also backfire .

16:45When this animal welfare law never came

16:47into effect , there was also the

16:48headline : When will we finally have the

16:50law ? And Fritz Blasser himself explains

16:52that the power of the tabloids is often

16:54overestimated , because the legendary

16:57founder and long-time publisher of the

16:59Gronenzeitung , Hans Dichern , who has

17:01since passed away , was , for example ,

17:03strictly against an ÖVP-FPÖ coalition

17:05in 2000. The Kronanzeitung was in favor

17:07of a profession and against

17:09conscription before the corresponding

17:11referendum . However , this coalition

17:13came about and there was a clear

17:15majority in the referendum for

17:17conscription and against profession .

17:19Yes , people are also overestimating the

17:21power of the tabloids . On

17:22the other hand , the fact that the

17:24referendum even took place was

17:25definitely attributed to the influence

17:26of the Kronezeitung , because it was in

17:28favor of the profession and suddenly

17:30there was a referendum : shouldn't we

17:31have a profession ? Whereby the SPÖ in

17:33particular was suddenly very

17:35energetically in favor of the

17:36profession in view of the history of

17:38social democracy , which was also

17:40persecuted by the state , which was

17:41quite remarkable . But I have another

17:44question for you as a journalist . Now

17:46there is a distinction between quality

17:48newspapers and popular newspapers . Who

17:51decides which is which and what are the

17:52criteria for that ? When someone asks me

17:55, is it quality or not , I always say , "

17:57No , not . " Yes , I would say the simplest

17:59difference is perhaps whether a

18:02newspaper primarily appeals to the

18:04emotions of its audience with the way

18:06it is produced or to reason . They are

18:09called " boulevard newspapers " because

18:11they used to be sold on the streets on

18:14the boulevards , and in order to find as

18:16many buyers there as possible , they

18:18usually have very loud , aggressive , big

18:20, shrill headlines . Usually not about

18:23topics that are particularly important

18:25and relevant , or perhaps even complex .

18:28Um , they are less about foreign policy ,

18:30culture or business , but rather about

18:33sensationalism , scandals , celebrities

18:35and sports , in other words very , very

18:37popular topics . The headlines and texts

18:41tend to be exaggerated , with little

18:44differentiation and argumentation , and

18:48perhaps appeal to emotions or

18:51prejudices . It must also be said that a

18:53great strength of private newspapers is

18:55that they aim to reach as many people

18:57as possible and are written in a very

18:59understandable way , because they do not

19:01try to explain things in long and

19:03complicated sentences and lots of

19:05foreign words . That is a strength . An

19:08ideal newspaper would be as

19:09understandable as a tabloid newspaper

19:11and yet still be so differentiated and

19:13would deal with important topics , and

19:14whoever is so clever would be a quality

19:16newspaper .

19:17Now this gives me the opportunity for

19:18transparency , which is very important

19:20to me . I have written for the Standard ,

19:22which is considered a classic quality

19:24newspaper . I have written columns for

19:26the state newspapers and now write a

19:28double page every Sunday for the

19:29Gonenzeitung , which is considered a

19:31classic popular newspaper . So I always

19:33try to write in the same way , but it is

19:34true . The big challenge is to present

19:37often complex and complicated content

19:39in a factual way that is generally

19:41understandable and , not entirely

19:43unimportantly , also of interest to the

19:46readers . Let's briefly talk about the

19:48many newspapers you have written for .

19:49If we look at who owns these newspapers

19:52in Austria , it is very interesting . The

19:54three major tabloids are de facto owned

19:57by two families . The Kronezeitung ,

19:59which is now owned by the Dichern

20:01family , the Kronezeitung by the man ,

20:02and the Tageszeitung by the woman .

20:04Austria is owned by the Fellner family .

20:07The Kurier , also a very large daily

20:09newspaper , is owned by the Reifeweißen

20:11Group , a very , very influential farmers

20:13' cooperative . It tends to be close to

20:15the ÖVB . Incidentally , the weekly

20:16magazine Profil is also owned by them .

20:19The Kleine Zeitung , which is very

20:20important in the south of Austria , is

20:22owned by an association that de facto

20:24belongs to the Catholic Church , as is

20:26the Presse . And the large , very

20:28influential provincial newspapers in

20:30Veradelberg , Tyrol , Salzburg , and Upper

20:32Austria , as well as the Standard , are

20:34each owned by families . That all sounds

20:37relatively conservative . Nevertheless ,

20:40we often hear that journalists and

20:42media professionals are all left-wing .

20:45How does that fit together ? Of course ,

20:47there are also people to the right of

20:49center who are close to or favor

20:51parties and who are very critical when

20:53reporting does not conform to their

20:55party's interests , and then everything

20:57that is not directly on the right-wing

20:59wall is left-wing . But it is actually

21:01the case that there are studies in

21:03Germany and Austria that show that

21:05journalists , who are of course also

21:07voters , like the rest of us , vote for

21:10the Greens to an above-average extent .

21:12And the Greens , despite their

21:13middle-class roots , which is something

21:15we tend to forget , are considered a

21:17classic left-liberal party . However ,

21:19this voting behavior among journalists

21:21is not surprising , because journalists

21:24tend to live in cities . They usually

21:26have a higher level of formal education

21:28, which has nothing to do with being

21:30smart or stupid , but they have

21:32completed high school and a degree . And

21:34these are all voter groups where the

21:36Greens have a large share of the vote .

21:38This applies to all such professional

21:40groups , including journalists and vice

21:42versa . These are entrepreneurial

21:44families , they are big business owners ,

21:46they tend to be economically liberal ,

21:48so classically right of center , which

21:50is not surprising . That is not the

21:52problem at all , because there is no

21:54such thing as a politically neutral

21:56person , who sometimes does not think

21:58for one party or against another . The

22:00key element is , should it have an

22:02influence on journalistic reporting ? Of

22:05course not , or only in opinion pieces .

22:08You also must not shape the image of

22:10completely objective journalism . Of

22:11course , that has to be the case with

22:13the facts . However , in an opinion piece

22:15, in a commentary , it is about taking a

22:18personal position . Everyone should

22:20understand that , because most of the

22:21time it even says debate or something

22:22like that . There is a box around the

22:25text . Take a photo of the author and

22:26everyone will understand that it is

22:28about opinion . In fact , journalists

22:31simply have to be able to separate

22:32their personal opinion from their work .

22:35That is not so difficult . Every

22:37waitress and every waiter somehow

22:39notices that there are guests who are

22:40likeable and less likeable .

22:42Nevertheless , you have to treat them

22:43all properly . That means there are many

22:45professions in which you have to

22:47separate your personal sympathies from

22:48your own .

22:49Incidentally , I would imagine that this

22:50also applies to political scientists in

22:52election research . Now , there is often

22:54criticism that the ORF is not

22:56politically independent . Sometimes it

22:58is called red radio , then again it is

22:59called government radio , which in

23:01recent years has not really fit

23:02together . How do you see that ?

23:04There is indeed a major structural

23:06problem at the ORF , because the highest

23:08supervisory body of the ORF is the

23:10foundation board , like a supervisory

23:12board in a company , and it makes the

23:14most important decisions . For example ,

23:16it elects the director general or

23:19decides on the budget , i.e. how much

23:22money the ORF has at its disposal and

23:24what it can spend it on . And this

23:27foundation board is also appointed by

23:28the government and parties . The

23:30Broadcasting Act is such that it would

23:33protect the independence of the ORF ,

23:35because party political groups , such as

23:37parliamentary groups , are expressly

23:40prohibited by law . Only the workaround

23:42looks like this . These party delegates

23:44to the foundation board organize

23:46themselves in circles of friends of the

23:49respective party , which is then not a

23:51faction , and they meet for preliminary

23:54discussions before a foundation board

23:56meeting , where they are informed of the

23:58respective party line and often align

24:01their voting behavior in consensus with

24:03this party line . Now , in times of

24:06pandemic , they may also use Zoom , but

24:08they often also meet on party premises ,

24:10such as a party academy or in the

24:12parliamentary club . And this foundation

24:14board naturally has political influence

24:16, because a director-general must first

24:18be elected and a director-general must

24:21then also get his other board members

24:23through the foundation board . And we

24:25have also experienced in the recent

24:26past that chats are very popular . This

24:28was the case with the editor-in-chief

24:30of the ORF , where a politician Heinz

24:32Christian Strache very clearly stated

24:34his wishes , namely those of the FPÖ ,

24:36and there was not even an explicit no .

24:39The editor-in-chief then resigned from

24:40office . It must be said now , and this

24:43is particularly important to our ORF

24:45journalists , that the ORF management

24:47does not produce the news . Um , we can

24:49still work properly . Why can we do that

24:52? We have a very , very strong editorial

24:55statute and a very strong editorial

24:57representation and , um , no journalist

24:59at ORF can be forced to report

25:01something that they cannot reconcile

25:04with their journalistic conscience . No

25:06disadvantage should arise from that . No

25:11one can order me to ask a question or

25:13not during my time as a guest in the B2

25:14studio , and no one knows either , so

25:16it's not just the guests who don't know

25:18in advance what they're going to be

25:20asked . Nobody at ORF knows what I'm

25:23going to ask either . Um ,

25:25and I think it's really nice that no

25:26party member has told you what to ask

25:28me and what not to ask me . Here ,

25:30exactly . Now , it would be even better

25:33if the top positions had nothing to do

25:35with politics either , um , let's see ,

25:36maybe that will improve even more . At

25:39the beginning of 2023 , the

25:40Constitutional Court is expected to

25:41decide whether this foundation board ,

25:43or whether this structure is

25:44appropriate . Let's see , but there is

25:46often criticism , even beyond the ORF ,

25:48that politics and the media in Austria

25:51are becoming far too closely linked .

25:53There is often talk of processing . To

25:56put it more elegantly , one speaks of a

25:59political-media complex . Is there much

26:02closeness to this ?

26:03This infatuation exists . The

26:04aforementioned unfortunate chats

26:06between top politicians and individual

26:08editors-in-chief prove this . The main

26:11problem there is of course the content ,

26:13because they wanted to give each other

26:14advantages . But the part is also

26:16significant . It was characterized by

26:18such infatuation . Even in a very small

26:21country like Austria , it is sometimes

26:23difficult to prevent this closeness .

26:25Let's start at the local or small town

26:27level . A local journalist can hardly

26:30completely detach themselves from a

26:33closeness to the mayor . There are

26:36rarely any female mayors or local

26:38councillors , because their children go

26:40to the same schools . People meet

26:42regularly , from sports clubs to village

26:45festivals to pubs . But that doesn't

26:47necessarily mean that this proximity

26:49necessarily results in an agreement on

26:50what is best to write in the newspaper

26:52or what advantage a journalist has when

26:54he or she does so . And of course , it

26:55doesn't just happen at the local level ;

26:59at the federal level , in Vienna , around

27:01the Hofburg , the Chancellery , and the

27:03parliament , there is a 2 square

27:05kilometer government district where , to

27:07put it bluntly , the same people meet

27:09every day , namely from politics and the

27:11media , often telling each other the

27:13same thing , and in the end , which is

27:15already bad , they believe that this is

27:17how the world is or at least how

27:18Austria is . But it gets even worse when

27:20they try to shape this world for

27:22themselves . Of

27:23course , it's not just the geographical

27:25proximity ; there is also an ambivalent

27:27relationship between politics and the

27:28media . Journalists depend on having

27:32contacts with political players . After

27:35all , they have to learn something . We

27:36have to do research . To do that , you

27:38have to talk to people . To do that , you

27:39sometimes have to know them for a long

27:41time so that they can tell you

27:42something that you can't already read

27:44in the news agency . It becomes

27:46problematic when this proximity is

27:48either exploited to gain some kind of

27:50advantage for yourself , or when you

27:52want to treat an informant , for example

27:54, in quotation marks , by reporting on

27:56them more kindly than you would if they

27:58hadn't told you anything . So , this is a

28:01thoroughly ambivalent relationship ,

28:03where you as a journalist have to be

28:05very careful to always walk the right

28:07path on this fine line . Incidentally ,

28:09this is not a new phenomenon ; the

28:14former Federal Chancellor Bruno Greiski

28:16, whom you mentioned , proved himself to

28:18be a master of this art of flirting

28:20with very minor guests . For example , at

28:23this press council meeting , he

28:25approached a young journalist and

28:26greeted this person in front of

28:28everyone else - a little trick by the

28:30Federal Chancellor that may not be a

28:32gross misconception , but he had

28:34something in mind , and that was no

28:36coincidence . Now , something that

28:39journalists and politicians have in

28:42common recently is a really bad public

28:46image . Trust levels in politics have

28:48been very , very low for a long time ,

28:50and in recent years , they have also

28:51gotten worse in the media , also in

28:53light of some of the chats that have

28:55become known . Why is that ?

28:57Due to time constraints , towards the

28:59end of our last episode and the entire

29:01podcast , I will only highlight one

29:02mistake that politics and the media

29:04make together . They have ruined the

29:07image of their respective industries

29:09through consistent negativity .

29:11Politicians , parties , or media outlets

29:14consistently present themselves in a

29:16good light , but others in a bad light ,

29:18and then wonder why the overall picture

29:21is bad . I will make a drastic

29:22comparison to illustrate this . Two spa

29:24communities are just as much

29:25competitors as there is competition in

29:27politics and the media , namely for

29:29guests . Politics competes for votes ,

29:32while the media competes for viewership

29:34or readership . Nevertheless , tourism

29:36communities would be ill-advised if

29:38they said that in the other community

29:40you are not swimming in spa water , but

29:42in the sewer , because they know that

29:44the overall picture in the entire area

29:46must stink pretty bad . Now I will leave

29:48it up to all listeners to decide what I

29:50mean by this analogy for politics and

29:52the media .

29:54Finally , I would like to talk about one

29:56very important point . Social media has

29:59really changed a lot in just a few

30:02years . It has become a huge competitor

30:04for traditional journalistic media . For

30:07the time and attention of the audience

30:09and for the advertising revenues on

30:10which professional media also depend to

30:12a large extent . But social media have

30:15also completely changed the public

30:17debate , because suddenly everyone can

30:22participate and have their say , with

30:23all the advantages and disadvantages

30:25that this entails . And social media

30:27also makes it possible for politicians

30:30to suddenly talk to citizens directly

30:33and without media intermediaries . And

30:36that brings me back to my original

30:38question from the very beginning . If

30:40that is the case , then does politics

30:42still need traditional media today ?

30:45What is very good about social media in

30:48theory – that political actors can

30:50communicate directly with citizens , and

30:52that the reverse is also possible , i.e.

30:54interactively – unfortunately does not

30:57work nearly as well in practice .

30:59Because for it to work , each of us

31:02would have to have the media skills and

31:05the time to be our own editor-in-chief .

31:09Because journalists and especially

31:11editors-in-chief are busy

31:13distinguishing serious news from

31:15dubious news , separating the true from

31:17the false , checking and checking : What

31:20does the other side have to say about

31:22it , what do uninvolved third parties

31:25have to say about it ? So double-check ,

31:27double-check . Our training does not

31:29allow us to do any of that because we

31:31have learned other professions . And if

31:33we are paid to work in these other

31:34professions , then we don't have the

31:36time to figure it out day in and day

31:38out . And that's why we need journalists

31:40and traditional media more than ever .

31:42Hmm . Nevertheless , politicians are of

31:45course trying to exploit this , to

31:47somehow build up large fan bases on

31:49social media , to address the audience

31:51directly , in order to avoid critical

31:53questions , for example . And the German

31:56media scientist Bern Bkson says , for

31:58example : We need to become a kind of

32:00editorial society . That means we all

32:03need to acquire some of these skills

32:05and competencies from journalism . So

32:08that we can also check ourselves a bit

32:09in our everyday lives . Are we being

32:11lied to now , is this credible ? What is

32:13reliable information ? We have to come

32:15to a conclusion . Peter , our traditional

32:17last question in this podcast today ,

32:20and really the last time , is : If you

32:22could wish for something to change in

32:24the relationship between politics and

32:26the media in Austria today , what would

32:29it be ?

32:29I can follow up on what you said at the

32:32very end . I would like to see a

32:34compulsory school subject of media

32:36education in connection with political

32:39education and an additional focus on

32:41media education in open youth work and

32:44in adult education with a budget of

32:46billions . And because today is the last

32:49episode and because it's about your

32:51home game , you can also make a wish

32:53today . That's

32:53generous . If I could make a wish , I

32:56would actually wish for the ORF

32:58Foundation Board and its circles of

33:00party friends to finally be

33:02depoliticized . But we're not finished

33:06for today yet , because this is the last

33:08episode of our podcast , there's a kind

33:11of bonus track , although it's actually

33:13more of a penalty track . We still need

33:16to make a few corrections , because in

33:18previous episodes we occasionally

33:21talked nonsense . Fortunately not too

33:23often , but twice in the first episode

33:26about the Federal President . I was

33:29right there when I said that there is

33:31no Federal President in Switzerland ,

33:34but that the members of the government

33:36take turns . But they don't always do

33:39this for half a year , but for a year .

33:43And unfortunately , I mixed up an entire

33:45timeline in the succession of federal

33:47presidents . The FPÖ politician Hilmer

33:50Kabers actually called Federal

33:51President Gleistel a scoundrel and

33:53later tried to talk his way out of it

33:56by saying he had only said hump or dump

33:58. However , he only did so after Thomas

34:00Gleistel did not want to make him

34:02minister . So that cannot have been the

34:05reason for Geistil's refusal . Thomas

34:07Geistel actually rejected Hilm Kabas

34:09and another FPÖ politician Thomas

34:11Prinzon as ministers because they both

34:13made statements during the election

34:15campaign that Thomas Geistil described

34:18as racist . In the episode about the

34:20government , I said that no career

34:22officer had ever been defense minister .

34:25That was completely wrong right away ,

34:26because I think there have been several

34:28cases . It was a long time ago , and

34:30Bruno Greis in the 1970s even had two

34:33generals as ministers , namely Johann

34:35Freisler for nine months and then Karl

34:38Lütgendorf for a very long time , even

34:40for 6 years . And in a shorter period of

34:43time , during the civil service

34:45government and Chancellor Bierlein ,

34:47Major General Stahlinger , the Federal

34:49President's representative , was also

34:51Minister of Defense for a few months .

34:53Before that , it was another career

34:55officer for 10 days , but nobody really

34:58noticed . And then there was something

34:59with zeros . Petter ,

35:01yes , I mistakenly said in the budget

35:04that there was one zero too many . Some

35:07politicians may have misunderstood that

35:08. I would say that it was my allusion .

35:10No. And it was mainly my mistake . In

35:13fact , there were six zeros too few . So ,

35:15that's a lot of money going in the

35:17wrong direction .

35:18And in the last episode about the EU ,

35:20we also made a slip-up . Yes , I said

35:23that there is no exit provision in the

35:25EU treaties . That was true at the time

35:28of Austria's accession in the 1990s .

35:31Since 2009 , however , there has been an

35:33article in the EU Treaty that at least

35:36stipulates general exit rules for the

35:38procedure . And finally , we have to add

35:40something on the subject of political

35:42parties . We now know what the

35:44autonomous revolutionary submissive

35:47chaotic hacklers , or Arschpartei for

35:50short , from episode 4 are all about .

35:53Yes , now for the really important

35:55things , we have to thank Clemens Eustr ,

35:57who wrote us an email . He is a

35:59historian who is currently writing a

36:02book about the punk scene in Vienna and

36:04Linz in the 80s and 90s , and there was

36:07the Rotstilzchen district center , and

36:09the Arschpartei emerged from this

36:11banking scene and the district center ,

36:14and as a sports fan , I also learned

36:16something . They also founded the Dynamo

36:18Rotstilzchen as a football club and

36:20they wanted to play against the

36:22Austrian national team as their first

36:23opponent , but unfortunately the

36:25national team didn't want to . So , now

36:27you know that too , and that concludes

36:29the last regular episode of The

36:31Professor and the Wolf . But if you want

36:34, we'll hear from you one more time in

36:36a kind of special edition on Tuesday ,

36:38November 29th at 6 p.m. live on Radio

36:40FM4 . That will be a one-hour live

36:44broadcast where you can all call in to

36:46ask us questions , but of course also to

36:48let us know what we may have forgotten

36:51or overlooked . To do so ,

36:52send us a WhatsApp voice message in

36:55advance on 066482844 or an email to

37:02professorwolf @ of . Or you can call in

37:07live during the broadcast . WhatsApp has

37:09not proven itself in politics . They

37:10would have been better off using

37:12Snapchat , where the messages disappear

37:14automatically . But we have no problem

37:15with WhatsApp . If you want to discuss

37:18us on social media , just use #professor

37:20and Wolf . That was the Professor and

37:23the Wolf . Thanks Peter , it was great

37:25fun .

37:25Thanks , me too . And a very big thank

37:28you also to Klaus and Rudi from Radio

37:30FM4 , who have provided us with

37:32excellent editorial and technical

37:34support over the last few weeks , and to

37:36all the other colleagues at this

37:38fantastic radio station , and of course

37:40thank you to you . Ciao .