From CDs in India to Building AI Security at PayPal

0:00I went through a layoff actually the

0:02previous year we bought a new home, new

0:04car and we settled. At that time it was

0:06very difficult because uh I'm on H&B

0:09visa here. So we have to find a job

0:11within 60 days. Everyone will take the

0:13gym membership on the first day of

0:14January. But after 1 week they not go

0:18there right personally I spend good

0:21amount of money every year to learn

0:22something new. I set that budget every

0:24year starting off every year. So why not

0:27spend more money in building your own

0:29career? People will trust you when you

0:31show something, not when you say I know

0:33something. So try to prove by doing

0:36something because we cannot always

0:37complain about the problem. We need to

0:39give the solution to the problem. I was

0:41in Florida in Disneyland and I got a

0:44email from Docker team.

0:48Today I'm going to share with you an

0:50interview with Joseph who has an

0:53incredibly inspiring story into tech.

0:55He's been in tech for close to 20 years.

0:58He started as an engineer in India,

1:00worked his way through roles in Oman,

1:02and eventually landed in Austin, Texas,

1:05which is considered a hot spot for tech

1:07and tech startups right now. And

1:10currently, he's a manager of cyber

1:12security engineering at PayPal, one of

1:14the biggest companies in the world. Now,

1:17when Joseph joined our dev sec boot

1:20camp, he was already deep in the tech

1:22field. He already had the experience. So

1:24what I find inspiring is not the career

1:26switch before, but it's the fact that

1:29someone at that level still chose to

1:32come back and do structured learning.

1:34And on top of his day job, he actually

1:36became both an AWS community builder and

1:39a Docker captain. He hasn't stopped

1:41learning even with a pretty established

1:44career already. So today we dig into

1:47what keeps a senior engineer hungry to

1:51keep learning, how that actually shows

1:53up in the real work at a company like

1:55PayPal and what the journey looked like

1:58from the inside all the way from India

2:01to Austin, Texas. And because Joseph

2:05sits at the intersection of DevOps,

2:08security, and AI, I also asked him the

2:11question a lot of you are sitting with

2:13right now, which is, is AI going to take

2:16over IT jobs, including DevOps, and is

2:19it actually worth learning DevOps and

2:22devsops when AI might change everything

2:25anyways? And his answer comes from

2:27someone who is building AI powered

2:30security systems at PayPal right now. So

2:33it's worth to stay until the end to hear

2:36her thoughts and perspective. So let's

2:39get to it. So Joseph, welcome. I'm

2:41really glad that you are here.

2:43>> Yeah, definitely. Thank you so much,

2:45Nana. Thank you so much for this

2:46opportunity as well. I wanted to thank

2:48Nikoli as well as she is a primary role

2:50in this tech with Bana program and the

2:54company. I'm Joseph. Currently I live in

2:56Austin, Texas. Originally from India. I

2:59started my career in India in a

3:01consulting company. So I was doing uh

3:04when in my first job I used my job was

3:07to hand over the CDs uh with license

3:10printed in it. Right? If you know MSDN

3:12CDs and others in in the past I used to

3:15hand over the CDs to the people who

3:17wants to install the software in their

3:20motherboard to test the new hardware and

3:21other things. So in my free time I used

3:24to write some Java code and other things

3:26to build some web apps. So one of my

3:30manager's friend came to my desk one day

3:32and he saw what I'm doing and he asked

3:34me like why don't you come to my team

3:36and do something cool. We got a new

3:38project. So he pulled me into the job.

3:40That was my first change in my career.

3:43Uh I was a business intelligence

3:45developer in SSR side. I was working for

3:47a leading bank in India and then it's uh

3:50it I was there for a couple of years and

3:53then I moved to Gulf that gave me a lot

3:55of great opportunities to work with

3:57banking customers and minister of

3:59defense, minister of housing, finance,

4:01lot of government sectors and oil and

4:03gas industries which helped me to

4:06improve my skills in uh in the space of

4:08SharePoint and then I came back to

4:10Bangalore again uh I worked for

4:14semiconductor company again through a

4:15consulting company for a couple of

4:17years. Then in 2013 I came to Austin. It

4:21was uh it was great. Uh for a couple of

4:23years I worked there and then I moved to

4:25Broadcom. Uh previously the company name

4:27was called CA uh technologies. It was

4:30accured by Broadcom. In 2018 I I went

4:32through a layoff actually. In May 2018 I

4:36went through a layoff. The previous year

4:38we bought a new home, new car and we

4:40settled. We thought life is settled and

4:42everything is going good. But until 2018

4:45I was stuck with a specific stack. So

4:48when I try to search for jobs at that

4:51time it was very difficult because uh

4:53I'm on uh HMBB visa here. So we had to

4:56find a job within 60 days. So the time

4:58is very short. I got some offers but it

5:01was bit delayed. So I was forced to go

5:04back to India for some time. So during

5:07the time I was praying about it what to

5:09do and all all those things and I

5:11decided okay now is the time to switch

5:13uh carrier into a new thing because

5:15switching to a new field or new track is

5:17not something new for me. I have been

5:19doing that. So but at the same time I

5:21want to choose the right track. So

5:23that's when I decided to choose cloud

5:25and devops. I started uh watching

5:28different videos and other things but I

5:30got some offer in the from the US

5:32company and then I came back in 2018.

5:35That's when I slowly started learning

5:37about other uh stacks. Uh for example, I

5:41was so into Azure and Microsoft stack

5:43and then I started uh learning about

5:45other things. So first thing when I

5:48started about DevOps the basics like so

5:51Linux networking and docker so that's

5:53these are the important topics I need to

5:55learn. That's when I found your video

5:58for the very first time. I think 6 years

5:59ago I guess that was uh the time I saw

6:02your video. First I was going through

6:04all your free videos uh and I started

6:07learning about other things like AWS,

6:09Docker, Kubernetes and everything in and

6:11out from your post. Then I switched to

6:15uh beta. So here right now I'm in the

6:17cyber security. These days I'm focusing

6:19on automation, AI, deops. Yeah. So these

6:23are all the areas I'm working.

6:29>> So let me zoom in and few. So this is a

6:31really interesting story but it's super

6:33in a nutshell. So I'm pretty sure there

6:36are some exciting interesting details in

6:38there. So let me let me zoom in into a

6:40few parts. So first of all do you

6:41remember your very first steps into the

6:44IT or tech field? How old were you? Uh

6:48how was it transition for you? It is a

6:50new field. It is a new career. Like what

6:52were the challenges? What was your

6:54vision? Like did you know exactly your

6:56future plan? how you were going to kind

6:58of settle yourself into the IT field or

7:02just take me back to the very first

7:04steps into IT.

7:06>> Yeah. So after um my college days like

7:09so I was searching for some job. So it

7:11took some time for me to find a good

7:13job. So in between uh couple of my

7:16relatives said like okay why don't you

7:18join our relatives company which was a

7:19sim card manufacturing company. It was a

7:22a monopoly I will say it is like a

7:24single company in the India which was

7:26producing a lot of SIM cards and credit

7:28cards. So I was there for a couple of

7:30months. The problem what I faces is my

7:32dream was to go to a software industry

7:34side but I was doing something different

7:37there. So I was not very happy about it

7:39but still I wanted to give my 100%age in

7:42my work. So I was continuing to do that.

7:45But uh when I got this opportunity to

7:47interview for uh my first job, I was so

7:50excited. So I told my previous company

7:53that I'm uh joining this company and

7:55they blessed me and asked me to join

7:58there. So when I first joined uh it was

8:00my first job and it is like I need to

8:03learn from the leaders and spend a lot

8:05of time in uh learning. So uh I love to

8:09wake up in the early morning from my

8:11childhood. So that is that played a key

8:13role. So I used to learn every day even

8:15today uh at least 0.01 01% is I learn

8:19every day uh something about new new

8:21things right so that helped me uh in the

8:24early stages um learning from others

8:27played a major role so I always seek

8:30after people like what they are doing

8:32why they are different why they they are

8:35very influential in the company and all

8:36those things I I used to look after and

8:39I'll try to mimic or try to do things

8:42what they are doing right so that's how

8:44uh I learned especially uh in my

8:46day-to-day works. Yeah. [music]

8:52>> And you also mentioned so you switched

8:54your job into Gulf area where you

8:57working for a bank and in government

8:59sector then you also find a job found a

9:01job in Austin, Texas. It sounds easy but

9:04we we also have a lot of Indian students

9:06or a lot of students who uh find it

9:09difficult to find jobs outside their

9:12countries. So what what do you think was

9:15the main challenge and how do you think

9:17you handled it or you managed to

9:19basically find a new job opportunity

9:21outside the country in the Gulf area uh

9:24find an opportunity in US Austin Texas.

9:27So what what was the what was the

9:29challenge and also in your view the most

9:31important element of why you succeeded

9:34in that?

9:35>> Yeah definitely the um moving part of

9:38Gulp is kind of a funny story. So I got

9:41my passport during my college time and I

9:44didn't use it for for anything right. So

9:46I was working for the consulting

9:47company. One day I was on the way back

9:49home going back home and I got a call

9:52from a health number about a job

9:54recommend but first I did not even

9:56believe that I thought it is like it's a

9:59spam call. So I disconnected it and then

10:02they called me again and say that I said

10:05that like it's a real job you have to

10:07trust this. Then uh I started inquiring

10:10about their company and then I was going

10:12through a couple of interviews. First

10:13job itself I was away from my home. So

10:15moving to a new country and other things

10:17I like it but at the same time uh it's a

10:20first international trip. So as soon as

10:22I landed I really missed my family. I

10:25started crying did did I make any

10:27mistake there [laughter] like so it was

10:29a good job. I was in a very good job. So

10:31I moved to Gulf. So that was very

10:33difficult staying away from family and

10:35then it's like again the culture and the

10:38way they work is completely different

10:40than other sectors right so I really

10:43like that place uh Oman is a great place

10:45to work and the customers I worked with

10:48and there are a lot of learnings because

10:50it's a different industry also uh

10:52regulations and other things which I

10:54learned from there I had very good

10:55managers and friends there uh to learn

10:58from each other in my school we used to

11:00have a moto be first and be with the

11:02first. That moto I apply everywhere

11:04wherever I go. I try to be first but

11:07otherwise I will try to be with the

11:10people who are first in the industry or

11:12learn from them. Right? So learning is

11:14very important before you become first.

11:17So that policy I apply wherever I go

11:20that really helped me. I learned from

11:21lot of great people uh networking

11:23engineers, engineering managers and

11:25others. So which helped me a lot. Yeah.

11:28>> Mhm. This is really interesting that

11:30what you say because not everybody

11:32shares this mentality of uh oh my god I

11:35have this opportunity I work with a lot

11:37of uh you know experienced people now

11:39I'm going to use that to learn a lot.

11:41So, how did you know what you needed to

11:44learn? Or was it your c curiosity was so

11:46high that you were just ready to absorb

11:48anything from anyone who you saw that

11:51was successful and you just knew in your

11:54mind that whatever you learned from them

11:56would be valuable for you or did you

11:58have a strategy like oh these are the

11:59specific things I want to learn from

12:01each of the job or each of the

12:02opportunity?

12:03>> Yeah, when I went there uh the business

12:05process automation is something was new

12:08right so there are a lot of hype about

12:10it. So we were tked to find out a tool

12:13right tool that we can introduce to our

12:15customers. So that's why learning a

12:17course or something uh deeply will help

12:20you analyze and the trade-offs what you

12:22need to make and what is the solution

12:24you are going to build and what is the

12:26pros and cons. You used to share this in

12:28your courses. Always don't see or don't

12:32go very deep into a tool. Learn about

12:34the problem it solves and you can use

12:37any tool. You can replace that with any

12:38tool. That is the strategy I was also

12:41using there actually. So BPM business

12:44cost automation that is like uh related

12:46tools is the one which led me to learn a

12:49lot of new things in the D side.

12:51>> Okay. So now take me back to the step in

12:53Austin Texas. So how did you land the

12:56job in US? Did you search for it

12:58actively? Did someone approach you and

13:00offer you a job? How did that happen?

13:02>> Yeah, I was in Gulf happily. uh they

13:04gave me car uh gas card and everything

13:07complete sponsorship but I wanted to

13:10come back to India for my marriage

13:12actually so when I came back I was

13:14working for a consulting company so

13:17every year they used to file H1Bs for

13:19that uh customer places right so I got

13:22the opportunity I'm thankful to my

13:24manager who applied for my H1B visa

13:26which got selected so I came to Austin

13:29and I worked with applied materials as a

13:31contractor for one and a half years

13:33Actually the industry is completely

13:35different right? So the tools and other

13:37things what they use I cannot exactly

13:39tell what they are using but the

13:41industry itself it is completely

13:42different which helped me to learn a new

13:44industry or space from the previous one

13:47right so there are a lot of learnings

13:48within one and a half years and then I

13:50moved to Broadcom in 2014 actually so I

13:54was there as a principal application

13:55developer for 4 years most of my job on

13:58um office 365 shareepoint and uh all the

14:01collaboration tools basically so we

14:03manage the enterprise system of the

14:06company and also whenever a company

14:08acquires some other company so we need

14:11to migrate their workloads to into our

14:13ecosystem. So we select uh softwares and

14:16tools right scripts that is needed for

14:19that migration. So that was my shift

14:21from the first company in the US to the

14:24second company.

14:28>> Okay. So now you also mentioned about

14:31the time when you were laid off and you

14:33also mentioned that you were stuck in a

14:35specific tech stack. So how did that

14:37happen? Because you are someone by

14:39character that loves to learn who's

14:41curious who who is not thinking oh my

14:44god another thing to learn rather you

14:46you approach it with an excitement where

14:48like oh my god there's a new opportunity

14:50to learn something. So what was a tech

14:52stack that you had to kind of work with

14:55and you were stuck with and why do you

14:57think that led to you being laid off

15:00from the company?

15:01>> Uh it was not a single or few members

15:04layoff. It was because of the accusition

15:06there were lot of people let go. So I

15:08was impacted they did it in couple of

15:11stages. So I was part of the first phase

15:13of that. So far at that till that time I

15:17was working on specific technologies

15:19related to enabling enterprise

15:21collaboration tools kind of tools where

15:24you don't code a lot you will use uh low

15:28code or no code solutions a lot so you

15:30don't dive deep into it right and uh I

15:33will not blame the tools it it enables

15:35the enterprise uh in a different way

15:37like teams is a very good example we use

15:40every day right so we enable that tools

15:42it is very very important but at the

15:44same time when I was laid off when I

15:46started searching for job the market on

15:49that stack was bit low I tried to find

15:52it I got some offers as well but at the

15:55same time it was not the offer which I

15:57liked uh in the way I wanted uh so that

16:00is when I realized okay it's a narrow

16:02path so that's when I started to expand

16:05my skills into other technology stacks

16:07as well uh as a learning curve so I used

16:10that opportunity and I started learning

16:12about other Yeah.

16:14>> So did you you had to go back to India

16:16from uh Austin, Texas, right?

16:18>> Yeah.

16:19>> So what was your thought process

16:21exactly? Because after years of

16:24experience in the field and you you know

16:26you kind of have your career advancement

16:29suddenly you find yourself in a

16:30situation where you kind of have to take

16:32a step back like a huge step back. Did

16:35it feel frustrating for you like I have

16:38put so many years I've built my career

16:40and suddenly I'm in a position where I

16:42can't even find a job and also or how

16:44did you navigate the decision of what to

16:47learn? So how did you come up with this

16:49uh come to the conclusion that it's

16:51DevOps that you should be learning

16:52because I'm sure that you analyze

16:54multiple different types of professions

16:56within IT maybe even outside IT. So how

16:59take me back to like the whole process

17:02like what was going through your head

17:03what was your uh thought process during

17:05the time

17:06>> so in the SDLC process side of it right

17:09where I work in the space so we don't

17:11follow a lot of devops [laughter]

17:13practices uh into it right so that is

17:15when when I started learning I started

17:18uh thinking about uh yeah the way it was

17:21developed and shipped to the customers

17:22it's completely different in DevOps it's

17:24not something we can easily learn you

17:26need to spend lot of time on it Right?

17:29So it's not like you can watch some

17:32random videos and know about everything.

17:34So you need to know a definite part like

17:36what are all the things you need to

17:38learn, what are the tools you need to

17:39learn and all those things. We need to

17:41be very very clear. That's when I

17:43decided okay DevOps will be an option

17:45for us and let us explore uh and I

17:48started learning about all those things

17:50uh in a very high level right not at a

17:53deeper level. I started approaching that

17:55at a very high level watching free

17:57videos and reading materials and other

18:00things but it was like maybe it will

18:02help for one interview but not it may

18:04not help in the other interview right so

18:06the skill set what we focus the total

18:09tool chain what they use the way they

18:11approach the problem how they ship it is

18:13going to be different company uh in

18:15every company so I just need to learn

18:18the generalized skills which I can apply

18:21anywhere where I go right the tools may

18:23be different but the process and the

18:26methodology or the frameworks or the

18:28patterns what we use it's kind of common

18:31everywhere right so that is what I

18:32wanted to learn and that's why I chose

18:34that path

18:35>> so because of your experience existing

18:38experience seems like you already had an

18:40insight where you knew that this is

18:42actually valuable for companies because

18:44I've seen the the product delivery part

18:47and this is what I know that they will

18:48value why not software development for

18:51example was that an option for you did

18:53Do you think about choosing that career

18:54path instead?

18:55>> Yes, from the beginning I used to

18:57develop that is not a problem for me but

18:59uh the way I was working it's completely

19:02different than what I'm doing today. So

19:04that helped me a lot but even after

19:07going back to India right so I I worked

19:10for a startup for 8 months so which

19:12helped me to build product because it's

19:14a startup you know the startup culture

19:16how fast they ship the product. So that

19:18really helped me to work on different

19:20aspect of it. I was a delivery head for

19:23a small startup company. That helped me

19:26to learn a lot of uh customer pain

19:28points and how we ship products to

19:31customers, how to scale and all those

19:33things I learned from that company.

19:35Yeah.

19:36>> Okay. And then you decide that DevOps

19:38would still be more valuable. So it was

19:40like an layer on top of your existing

19:43software development skills and this is

19:45what you want to learn.

19:46>> Yeah. Until then it was like lot of my

19:48work was on premise and that's when

19:50cloud and other things came in. So in

19:52order to switch my career into DevOps or

19:55cloud I need to learn DevOps is number

19:57one right? So Docker, Kubernetes all

19:59these things. But I was thinking like oh

20:02man how many tools I'm going to learn

20:04new right so that's when I was so

20:07overwhelmed with the number of tools

20:09then I decided okay so we have to start

20:11with Linux basics and then networking

20:14and then go into the devops the uh other

20:17advanced tools like docker kubernetes

20:20anible and other tools yeah

20:21>> what Joseph just described is actually

20:23the most important insight in devops

20:25learning and it's a thing that most

20:28people get wrong when they start

20:29learning on their own. When you look at

20:31the DevOps landscape, there are

20:33thousands of tools. You have Terraform,

20:35Enzible, Docker, Kubernetes, Jenkins,

20:38GitLab, Argus CD, Prometheus, Graphana,

20:41and the list keeps going on with

20:43alternative tools of all the tools that

20:45I just mentioned. And the natural

20:46reaction, especially if you're coming

20:48from a development or infrastructure

20:51background, is to pick one tool and go

20:53deep into it and to just master that one

20:56tool. You think I'm gonna master Docker

20:59then I will master Kubernetes then I

21:01will figure out CI/CD and then I will

21:03move on to Prometheus. But the problem

21:06with that approach is that you end up

21:08learning tools without understanding the

21:11big picture of the system that they are

21:13part of. And when you go into the real

21:15company or a job interview or real

21:17project, nobody asks you to know one

21:20tool in isolation. You're expected to

21:22understand how to connect them to build

21:24a complete process. They ask you design

21:27and architecture questions where you

21:29combine these tools. How code gets from

21:31a developer's machine to production.

21:33What happens at every step of that

21:35pipeline? Where security fits in? Who is

21:38responsible for what parts? And that's

21:41not something that you can piece

21:42together from five different tool

21:44courses. It actually requires seeing the

21:47whole picture. And what Joseph realized

21:49after the layoff is something that I've

21:52heard from a lot of experienced

21:53engineers that deep expertise in a

21:56narrow stack is actually a career risk

21:59if that stack changes and in tech and it

22:03in general stacks always change

22:04eventually. That's why I always say

22:07concepts and foundational knowledge

22:09before tools. So the DevOps ecosystem

22:13when you learn it properly and

22:14understand the underlying concepts and

22:17combination of tools at a conceptual

22:19level it gives you something more

22:21durable. you understand the patterns

22:23that stay consistent even when the

22:25specific tools change because whether a

22:28company is using Jenkins or GitHub

22:30actions or GitLab or whatever new tool

22:33whether they are on AWS or Azure the

22:36underlying reasoning for why they are

22:39building things in a certain way is

22:41always the same and that's exactly what

22:43Joseph was looking for and that leads

22:45directly to how he found our courses

22:48starting interestingly not with the

22:51DevOps boot hemp but with something much

22:54more specific.

22:59So in your feedback you mentioned I mean

23:02I am very proud to to be part of your

23:04career journey because of where you are

23:06right now. It's extremely impressive and

23:08you mentioned that you basically learned

23:10the entire DevOps ecosystem through our

23:13content which is a large like DevOps

23:15ecosystem is one of the largest

23:17considering all the IT care like career

23:20professions. So what did that look

23:23practically for you? Because when you

23:25looked into DevOps, you obviously

23:27realized okay these are a lot of tools

23:28that I would need to understand. There

23:30are a lot of concepts under those tools

23:32that I need to understand. So what did

23:34your learning process look like? Because

23:36you pro as you mentioned you started

23:38watching some YouTube videos. Where were

23:40some challenges where you realized okay

23:42this is too overwhelming or oh this is

23:44actually this makes sense. So how did

23:46your learning look like before you

23:49basically decided to do one of our boot

23:52camps eventually?

23:53>> Yeah, as um I was going through all

23:55this, I'm also growing in the level

23:58also, right? So from individual

24:00contributor to staff level and other

24:02things when it comes to staff level,

24:03there are a lot of things. So you need

24:05to know the technical vision. It's not

24:07about the tools, you know, you need to

24:09know the architecture and you need to

24:11know how to unlock your engineer's

24:13problem, right? So you will organically

24:16mentor people but you need to know the

24:18technical vision of the company right

24:20you may need to evaluate architecture

24:23against different uh uh different tools

24:25and uh if the tool does not support what

24:29you want you you need to know how you

24:31can customize the tool or create a

24:33wrapper around that to meet companies

24:35like right so uh and also technical

24:38marketing I will say as a staff level

24:40you will be an influential figure in

24:42terms of convincing the decisions made

24:44right so these are all different aspects

24:46we cannot gain this kind of experience

24:49if you go through some random videos so

24:51you need to know the exact tool sets

24:54used in the entire ecosystem and where

24:57exactly we need to use this right so you

24:59need to know some tools you don't need

25:01to uh explain a lot in front of the sea

25:03level executive sometimes you need to

25:05simplify for different stakeholders

25:08there are a lot of things you may need

25:09to do you need to create lot of visual

25:11aids to explain that I really like from

25:13your videos. Uh so you need to tell a

25:16story first of all uh right uh why this

25:18tool was introduced and how it is going

25:21to help and what kind of return on

25:23investment if you implement this tool

25:25why this tool versus the other tool in

25:27the same space like for example gitlab

25:29versus harness or genkins. So this tool

25:33the entire course really helped me to

25:35decide these things and because of that

25:38when I design some solution the team

25:41members right they were able to trust my

25:43decisions with the data points whatever

25:45I'm presenting right that that is very

25:47important so you can design a very

25:49beautiful solution in terms of

25:51architecture diagrams and other things

25:52but why I chose that and what are all

25:55the trade-offs I made that is very

25:57important for people to trust your

25:59relationship so that you can go back and

26:01talk to your downstream engineers who is

26:03who are going to build that feature for

26:05you, right? So that's why I chose this.

26:07>> And how did you make a decision because

26:10obviously before you did the course or

26:12the training the Devils boot camp or

26:14DevS boot camp, you didn't know exactly

26:16how the course was structured or what

26:19how in-depth it was. So what made you

26:22choose a structured program in general

26:24and specifically ours like what made you

26:26make that decision of this is what I

26:28need to do? It starts with foundation

26:31like Linux. So I have to go through all

26:33this foundational stuff before I get to

26:34the

26:35>> core of DevOps which also needs patience

26:38and it also needs a certain work ethic.

26:41So what made you decide that you would

26:44do specifically our training and also

26:47have the patience and and willpower to

26:49just go through it and and do it in

26:51depth? So first what I did is like as I

26:54said I was going through some free

26:55videos from your channel and other

26:57channels like codecloud and other uh

26:59channels I was going through it and I

27:00understood what it is I was able to do

27:03some basic tasks actually but I was

27:05thinking about do I need to get the full

27:07course deops or devops course because

27:09it's it's a lengthy course uh you need

27:11to spend a lot of time if you are really

27:13interested to switch your career and

27:15also budget wise also I need to think

27:17right so what I did first before even I

27:19took the devops course I took gitlab and

27:21Kubernetes course. Kubernetes course was

27:23my first course actually because end of

27:26the day even if you dockerize it has to

27:28be deployed in a cluster right so that's

27:31when I thought okay Kubernetes is the

27:34right course for me to start with your

27:36programs so I went through the

27:38Kubernetes course completely uh even

27:40though it is a Kubernetes course you

27:42covered from the basics there like

27:43including some important Linux commands

27:46and docker why it is important and all

27:48those things right so that gave me the

27:50confidence and it's worth putting my

27:52budget here. So that's when I decided

27:54okay I'll uh do this next course then

27:57GitLab because I was so heavily into

28:00genkins at that time. So I just wanted

28:03to learn about one other tool end to

28:05end. So that's why I chose the GitLab

28:07course to learn about all these things.

28:09Nowadays I'm using whatever I'm I

28:11learned from that course with harness at

28:14at the moment. So there are lot of

28:15things helped me from these two courses.

28:18After that only I decided to buy a full

28:20course. there cycle course because uh

28:23it's a practice right I'm part of the

28:25cyber security team in every phase of

28:27your software development process I need

28:29to introduce security in the project

28:32whatever I'm working right so and I need

28:34to train the team because I get interns

28:36to train I get any engineers to work

28:39with me they may not have the shiplift

28:41approach the that is maybe that is not

28:44part of their career course or things

28:46like that right so that will be followed

28:48heavily in the enterprise companies so I

28:50wanted to infuse that culture in the

28:53early stages of their career. Right?

28:55That is my thought process. So I wanted

28:57to declare hope for them and also

28:59develop the team in the day-to-day job.

29:02Right? So that's why I chose this. If I

29:04don't know, I cannot teach my fellow

29:06engineers. Right? That is the thought

29:08led me to take a proper coach so that I

29:10can build a team with a culture security

29:13mindset culture in the team and so that

29:15they can follow that uh in the

29:16day-to-day process.

29:18>> And then you did devops. So how did that

29:19happen? Because usually we have a lot of

29:21people who do the DevOps boot as a

29:23foundation of like DevOps tools and

29:25concepts and so on and then they do devs

29:28which is like a step up from that. So

29:30how did that reverse happen in your

29:31case?

29:32>> At one point my role was on the

29:34application side of it not on the

29:36infrastructure side of it right. So

29:38after that I realized like there are

29:39some projects I need to work on anible

29:42top and other things. That's when I

29:44started thinking about learning about

29:46the infrastructure as a code and other

29:48things where I need to provision. So

29:49it's basically because of the project

29:51right. So initially I started with uh

29:53developing secure application and then

29:56even in that process you need some

29:58DevOps aspect of it or tools of it. Then

30:01I decided even I requested I sent an

30:03email to your team that I just wanted to

30:06learn specific modules from the DevOps

30:08course that was not an option at that

30:09time and then I decided okay we will

30:11take DevOps course completely so that it

30:13will be end to end for me to learn and

30:16grow in this and make other people also

30:18grow in that uh aspect. Yeah. [music]

30:24So what do you remember from either

30:26Deviops or DevOps in terms of like

30:28practical projects that you did like did

30:31you have a point or a specific moment or

30:34a project that kind of raised your

30:36confidence in your skills? Because as a

30:39manager you said you needed to know

30:42stuff so that you could teach your teams

30:44so that you could integrate processes

30:45that your teams could follow. So did did

30:47you have a moment where you're like okay

30:49this just gave me a confidence in myself

30:51as a tech manager so that I can teach my

30:53team or I can introduce new concepts or

30:56new processes in my team. Did you have

30:57that type of specific moment or was it

30:59just a chain of like small moments like

31:01this? So uh in one of the projects right

31:04so I have to analyze there are a lot of

31:07slack bots were developed and deployed

31:09engineers used to provision their own

31:11server and deploy the slack bots

31:13wherever they want right in that project

31:15the task given for me was to identify

31:18such patterns and then convert them into

31:21microservices kind of solution and then

31:24deploy it in a cluster so that's when I

31:26realized okay I'm going to use the

31:28knowledge which I gained from the devops

31:30and dev sec ops post because it's like a

31:33migration project. I need to go through

31:35onremise service and find out what are

31:37such applications. I need to find out

31:39what's the total cost of ownership and

31:42who is the owner of this, why they're

31:44using or why not because it's a culture

31:46change also, right? When you when you

31:48ask a team to convert into microservices

31:51of Docker, it's a culture change. It may

31:53be a new thing for them. So you may need

31:56to work with them closely and help them

31:58with the PC's and wherever they are

32:00stuck you need to help them unblock

32:03their issues and other things. That's

32:05when I really used the skills what I

32:07learned from these courses. Then I

32:09decided okay so learning a a course with

32:12a proper curriculum right that is going

32:14to help you because uh the experience

32:17what you gain from a project right it is

32:19project specific or company specific or

32:21you may use a tool specific to that

32:23company and also it's about your team

32:25some teams are very mature team you may

32:28not get a chance to work on everything

32:30some teams are not mature team they may

32:32be new to devops or dev sec ops where

32:35you need to help end to end

32:36>> another thing I'm curious about because

32:38I'm hugely inspired by people who keep

32:42learning even when they reach a certain

32:45career level or certain level of success

32:47because it's really difflacent

32:50right to say you know what I'm a senior

32:52engineer I know my stuff I can learn on

32:54the job I don't need to you know or I

32:56don't need to keep learning like new

32:58technologies I'm I'm going to take it

32:59easy but you took like a completely

33:02opposite approach where you're like I'm

33:03going to do the fundamentals I'm going

33:05to keep learning you literally did like

33:08almost all our programs. So first of

33:10all, why do you think that level of

33:13motivation for learning is important and

33:16how do you think that gives you an

33:18advantage over other senior engineers

33:22who would have been in your position who

33:24say a little bit arrogantly maybe you

33:26know I'm I'm just going to learn on the

33:27job or I'm just going to go with the

33:28flow because I'm a senior engineer. I

33:30I've learned enough in my career.

33:32>> Yeah. coming from teachers family all my

33:35aunties and my mom and my sister is a

33:38teacher my wife is also a teacher now so

33:40basically from the beginning learning

33:42from others is something it was on me

33:44and also everyday learning is something

33:47going to help you in terms of the

33:49technical growth right so that's why I

33:51just wanted to don't rely on my own

33:53skills what I know at the moment because

33:55things change rapidly I have seen the

33:58technology evolution in different

34:00aspects right uh in Microsoft side I

34:03started working with Microsoft track

34:05with WSS 3.0 0 that's when sharepoint

34:07was introduced from then I'm working so

34:09I know how fast Microsoft ships the

34:11product and changes the road map and

34:13other things right so with that you

34:15cannot say or I cannot say that I know

34:18everything because there will be one

34:20other person better than you so you can

34:22you can learn from them that is

34:24something always in my mind so I can

34:26learn from everyone so uh learning is

34:31daily part of my life the people around

34:33me know very well about me And it is not

34:37see it's not about learning only right

34:39it's about sharing what you learn. So

34:42learning part may help you but uh it's a

34:46compounding effect effect I will say

34:48when you share because you will see

34:50people's different perspective and how

34:53they solve the same problem with a

34:55different idea or a different framework

34:57that will that is something going to

35:00help you in a different project as well

35:01right and it will help help you in terms

35:04of designing the solution the design

35:06thinking mindset will come into you when

35:09you will learn from others as

35:14One thing you mentioned I found very

35:16interesting. You said as an IT team

35:19lead, you need to be able to make

35:21well-informed decisions. You need to

35:22have enough knowledge that you can

35:24confidently decide this is the system

35:26design we're going to go with. This is

35:28the tech ST that we're going to choose

35:30for our systems. And you you mentioned

35:32that the train you basically learning

35:35the fundamentals and like filling those

35:37knowledge gaps gave you the confidence

35:40and the knowledge that helped you to

35:43exactly know okay this is the

35:44combination of tools that we're going to

35:46use. So what exactly in the the boot

35:48camps or in the trainings was it that

35:50helped you gain that type of knowledge

35:53that you could make architecture

35:55decisions about which tools and which

35:57concepts and how to combine them. Do you

35:59know what it was in those trainings that

36:01helped you with that?

36:01>> Yeah, definitely. So, when it comes to

36:04designing the solution or when a company

36:06wants to achieve something, right, there

36:08is a reason behind that. First of all,

36:10you need to understand it helped me to

36:12understand what they wanted to solve.

36:15Some companies are very mature companies

36:17in cloud. They wanted to cost optimize.

36:19Some teams wanted to migrate to cloud

36:21for the very first time. So, their

36:23perspective is different. First, let us

36:25migrate and then fine-tune it. Right?

36:26Some companies may not even know about

36:28cloud and you need to teach them. So uh

36:30first of all based on what is your

36:32company's problem and strategy. It

36:34helped me to pick or create artifacts

36:38what is needed for the stakeholders. You

36:40need to know your audience right? I

36:43cannot go very technical in in front of

36:45the sea level executives. They don't

36:47like it right. So they wanted to see

36:50what are you going to do to help this

36:52strategy company strategy. Right? It

36:55really helped me because if you don't

36:56know the tools how you are going to

36:58solve the problem you cannot uh make a

37:01decision there right so because when you

37:03go and make a decision your leaders may

37:06like it but your downstream's uh

37:08engineers may not like it so you need to

37:10have the communication skills and the

37:13influential aspect of it into your

37:15day-to-day job otherwise they will not

37:17commit to what you agree right so that

37:19is very very important my one strategy

37:22is like even if you if you decision is

37:25not selected commit to your work if it

37:27is decided as a team right so that is my

37:30process in whatever I'm doing so I help

37:34young engineers also to learn this um so

37:38encourage early feedbacks and other

37:40things because creating PC's and other

37:42things will help you to get early

37:44feedback so that you can design the

37:46solution in a different way and add

37:48other trade-offs and other things into

37:50it that's how I I approach this actually

37:52this course has definitely helped me to

37:55decide on uh this actually.

37:57>> Yeah. Because when I was creating the

37:59modules and um teaching the tools

38:01because it's the the modules are

38:02basically on specific tools but the the

38:05reasoning which kind of coincides co

38:08coincides to how you think about it as a

38:10senior engineer was before you learn the

38:13tool learn the concept but before you

38:15learn the concept learn why is this

38:18concept even needed? What problem does

38:20it solve? And then when you combine

38:23knowledge of different concepts and the

38:25and the reasons behind those concepts

38:27every time you learn for example you

38:29learn docker now you learn CI/CD now you

38:31learn kubernetes now you learn cloud you

38:34combine all this knowledge and you

38:36basically make a combination of okay why

38:40are those solutions needed in in

38:42combination with each other why you know

38:45what kind of use cases do we cover and

38:47solve with this is this right tool even

38:49in this situation maybe it's thought

38:51right not to just memorize the syntax of

38:54uh I don't know Kubernetes manifest file

38:56or or docker file but to develop the

39:00analytical thinking and the logical

39:02thinking to ask questions and and

39:05question why are we using this tool how

39:07do we combine this you know what problem

39:09are we are we solving with this do you

39:11think junior developers should

39:12immediately try to train that muscle and

39:16it's not something that only senior

39:17engineers should focus on would you

39:20agree on with Yeah. Yeah. Definitely

39:22juniors, junior engineers must learn

39:24this because nowadays we are using a lot

39:26of AI tools and uh they think uh

39:29whatever uh we need to generate can help

39:32but the context you have about the tool

39:34and the patterns and practices where you

39:37applied and how you applied what kind of

39:39architectural decision uh you made on

39:41what context right with whom all these

39:44are very very useful right so they need

39:46to learn this because this is something

39:48a cannot help you it may help you based

39:51on the context what you're giving but

39:53your real experience and other things

39:55and the company specific context uh

39:57towards the project that is something

40:00that can come from you right that's you

40:02cannot take the responsibility of what

40:04it generates right so you need to take

40:05the responsibility and the security

40:07aspect of what it generates so that's

40:10where uh you need to learn this along

40:12with the other productivity tools like

40:14uh AI tools like so definitely we need

40:17to learn

40:21So another really important discussion

40:24point which is whenever people like

40:26engineers have a full-time job they have

40:28a family they have additional

40:29responsibilities the biggest issue and

40:32pain point is how do I find time to

40:34learn right so on the one hand you have

40:36this thing where you need to keep

40:38learning because you need to stay up to

40:39date especially in IT things change so

40:41rapidly how did you actually manage that

40:44because you know doing two really

40:47intense programs plus doing two

40:49additional press. I'm sure you were

40:50learning in addition with a lot of

40:52resources. Did you have any specific

40:54time management strategy that you have

40:57this responsibility at work? You're not

41:00an individual contributor. You're

41:01actually a manager. How did you make

41:03time to actually learn at such a

41:06consistent rate for a long time? How did

41:09you do that?

41:10>> Yeah, this is the difficult part, right?

41:12Everyone will take gym membership on the

41:14first day of January but after one week

41:18they will not go go there right so it is

41:21kind of that right so we may uh take

41:23decision to become a engineering manager

41:26or staff level engineer or devops

41:28engineer cloud engineer but the

41:30consistency in doing that or learning

41:33that is very very important personally

41:35um everyone's uh time and schedule are

41:38different for me I'm a early morning

41:40person so my timing like 5 5:30 to 6:30

41:44is my learning time every day and

41:47Saturdays and Sundays uh Sundays I don't

41:49do anything but Saturdays at least I

41:52will spend uh 1 hour or 2 hours whenever

41:54mostly when the kids and family they

41:57take rest right because other times

41:59we'll be busy with their schedule

42:00helping them and all those things that

42:02is one thing and the way you may not

42:04have ideas or you don't know what to

42:06study right so recently I started

42:08following a pattern what I used to do is

42:11because of the AI train and other

42:12things. I used to go through the job

42:15descriptions posted by different

42:16companies and see what they are doing

42:18and how we can utilize that till in

42:21terms of building new ideas and maybe

42:24recording the current job to create the

42:26awareness and how it is industry trend

42:28is going right that is another way uh

42:30industry news and following some uh

42:33people because information is everywhere

42:35you need to find the right people it's

42:37like there is a saying right the world

42:39is full of great people you you need to

42:41find one if if you cannot be one right

42:44so I find the right people and where you

42:47can learn from right that is very very

42:49important because I have been in

42:51situations where I watch or read some

42:54article which may not be very useful

42:56that much but maybe in one aspect it may

42:59be useful in the future but finding the

43:01right content and right finding the

43:03right course or right people is very

43:05very important [music]

43:10>> so you also mentioned that and this is

43:13another interesting topic that I want to

43:15people to be aware of which is you

43:18mentioned that your the trainings that

43:20you did with us was funded also by your

43:22employer right which is a really huge

43:24untapped potential for engineers who

43:26want to learn maybe they're not they

43:28don't have enough funds or they don't

43:30have that you know they have this

43:32commitment barrier so or what would you

43:34advise to engineers who either don't

43:37know about this possibility or they want

43:39to take advantage of it so how would

43:40they approach coach getting their

43:43trainings funded by employers and how

43:45did you do that actually you personally?

43:47Yeah, definitely. So, there are two

43:49things here, right? First, before even

43:52employer sponsored courses and other

43:53things, right? So, personally, I spend

43:56good amount of money every year to learn

43:58something new that year. So, I set that

44:00budget every year starting off every

44:02year and not because I'm in the US. It

44:05is my pattern from the days when I was

44:08in India, right? So, I run my own

44:09website. I run the budget for that and

44:13all those things, right? Hosting and all

44:14those things. I set a budget. So setting

44:17a budget for your own growth is very

44:19important I will say because we change

44:21our phones every year. So why not spend

44:23more money in building our own uh career

44:26right? So that is my first thing. Second

44:28thing is a great company which spends a

44:31lot of uh time and effort in building

44:34the people right. So especially my

44:35department uh cyber security art they

44:38develop people uh in different aspects

44:40like uh like uh running the mentoring

44:41program shadowing program and learning

44:44or going to conferences learning from

44:46training courses like yours and all

44:47those things right so that is definitely

44:49something every engineer especially

44:51young engineers they need to spend some

44:54time and investigation on it and find

44:56out uh because when you go to your

44:58manager with a very big budget right

45:00they may not agree first what I will

45:02recommend is maybe take the courses like

45:04Kubernetes or GitLab kind of low budget

45:06courses first of all and prove yourself

45:09in the place where you're working and

45:11the knowledge what you learn from this

45:13all gained that will help to build the

45:16trust with your manager to get the

45:18budget for the bigger courses and other

45:20things that is something it's my

45:22personal humble opinion uh but if you

45:24get that opportunity definitely use it

45:26because it is going to help you shape

45:28your career uh in your path yeah

45:30>> this is an amazing advice I love it by

45:32the

45:33>> [music]

45:36>> So we can let's do a followup on the

45:39great advices because I want you to give

45:41advice to two categories of people. So

45:44first of all, let's take junior

45:45engineers. Objectively, because of AI,

45:48the career opportunities for junior

45:51engineers have become tougher, right? It

45:53has become way tougher than it was

45:54before, right? If you're a senior

45:56engineer, you have a lot of experience,

45:57you are even more valuable with AI. But

45:59if you're a junior engineer, the story

46:01is a little bit diff. If you had to give

46:05junior engineers specifically advice

46:07whether they are you know in software

46:09development or just starting into

46:11DevOps, how would you advise them to get

46:14over those challenges kind of get their

46:16foot in and then develop the career

46:19faster than the development of AI so

46:21that they kind of stay ahead of the

46:23curve.

46:23>> Yeah, definitely for new engineers. I

46:26know it's very difficult to find a job

46:28nowadays but that is not an end right

46:30because you can you have other

46:32opportunities while you are learning all

46:34these courses and how it is developed

46:36and shipped only when you enter into a

46:40company you know how it is developed

46:41inside right that's why I mentioned

46:43about the job script job descriptions

46:45posted right so you know what every

46:48company is using and what tools and what

46:49is expected it is not about the

46:51technical skills right sometimes for

46:53junior engineers it may be a behavioral

46:55They may need to improve the way they

46:57collaborate with others. They that is

46:59leadership skills and other things. You

47:01don't need to know all the leadership

47:03skills but there are few things you can

47:06improve right the way you communicate

47:08how you make decisions and other things

47:10that you can differentiate from others

47:13by learning in the early stages of your

47:15career. That is my first advice. But uh

47:17in the AI side of it everyone is

47:19developing nowadays. So now the one

47:22percentage who are working in this space

47:24is like security and building governance

47:27around that right that is something

47:30maybe uh junior engineers can learn a

47:32little bit about like how cost

47:35optimization another thing right so

47:37there are a lot of tokens used in every

47:39generation. So if you can come up with a

47:41cool idea which will save some money for

47:44the company, maybe you can build up a

47:46small pre-flight tool which can validate

47:49every request and do something about it.

47:51Right? So that will be a great thing to

47:53showcase uh as a portfolio uh builder.

47:56You can do this and showcase in front of

47:58the customers and networking is very

48:00very important. Connect with people

48:02don't hesitate. I was very hesitant to

48:04contact people and then uh these courses

48:07like uh which helped me in that aspect

48:09also because communication is something

48:11very very important. So try to connect

48:13with people in a genuine way right it's

48:15not that just for the opportunity don't

48:18go to the people just for the

48:19opportunity try to connect with people

48:21uh genuinely and try to learn something

48:23from them so that will uh definitely

48:25help. Yeah

48:26>> that's also amazing. So a general

48:28pattern what's from what you mentioned

48:30is basically try to deliver value before

48:33you ask for an opportunity because I

48:35love the idea of showcasing your work by

48:38building something that you notice is

48:41maybe needed and valuable for the

48:42companies and literally be like hey

48:44company whatever you may need this tool

48:47and this is what I've built before you

48:48even hired me. So that is like the

48:51that's the best way to stand out and it

48:53doesn't need if like you can use AI to

48:56actually build those kind of stuff to to

48:58use it to your advantage and that is a

49:01perfect example of giving value before

49:04you asking for something. So I love that

49:06that specific advice actually I wanted

49:09to be really hands-on also because even

49:11uh last week last weekend I developed a

49:13small app for the church where I'm going

49:15the church pastor used to send me a MP4

49:17file audio file uh which needs to be

49:19converted into video I was doing with

49:21Canva and other tools and there are a

49:23lot of uh specific uh setup I need to do

49:26it. So I was just designing that and

49:28deployed it in railway platform right

49:30it's like just 2 hours work if you know

49:32how to dockerize it's a docker container

49:34again right MongoDB and other things I'm

49:37using it took very less time for me

49:39because I know how to build so that kind

49:41of things uh you can showcase in your

49:43interviews and wherever you are

49:45projecting you can see my articles in my

49:48website you'll see a lot of cool ideas

49:51uh because I write any uh any article

49:54with a story behind it right So I I just

49:57wanted to give a story and then how I

49:59solve the problem in that story, right?

50:01So if you can build your technical

50:04materials and other things in that way,

50:06definitely hiring managers and the

50:08hiring team will like it because it's

50:11not traditional way of developing

50:13things, right? Yeah,

50:14>> they would love it. I would argue

50:15because I'm also on the hiring side and

50:18if I have an applicant an engineer who

50:20basically sends me a tool that they have

50:22built that especially if it's valuable

50:25for for us as a company she would be

50:27like number one on the list because

50:29nobody is doing it you immediately stand

50:31out and I would argue that even if

50:34someone like let's say if you if you

50:36have a junior engineer who is kind of

50:37desperate for a job because the

50:39opportunities are not low they will

50:41probably be thinking ah like I I I don't

50:44want to invest time in building

50:46something because you know I'm looking

50:47for a job and I need the job security

50:49first. But that spec like that

50:52investment of time and effort in

50:54learning something first of all you are

50:55developing your technical skills plus if

50:58you apply uh to I don't know 50 job

51:02positions you increase the chances of

51:05you getting interviewed or hired maybe

51:07by 100% versus if you don't invest that

51:10time and just desperately try to look

51:12for a job. So I I really really love

51:14that practical advice by the way.

51:20So another group of people that I want

51:22you to give uh career advice to is

51:25Indian engineers. So specifically

51:26engineers who are based in India because

51:2935% of our audience on YouTube are

51:32Indians. It is one of the largest group

51:33and there are amazing engineers there.

51:35However, we have a lot of students, a

51:37lot of people in our community who

51:39basically have this challenge of we

51:41cannot find jobs remotely or outside the

51:44country and I'm sure that you are going

51:46to be inspiration for a lot of engineers

51:48or people who want to be engineers in

51:50India itself. So I want you to give uh

51:53them specifically advice of how to

51:56achieve the same career levels that you

51:59have achieved.

52:01>> Yeah. So uh coming from India it's like

52:05uh I know the competition and the number

52:08of jobs posted versus the competition or

52:10the number of people applied is huge

52:13right compared to other places. I know

52:16that it is painful uh sometimes when you

52:19really wanted to get into a job quickly

52:21or after the layoff and things like

52:22that. What I will say is like when I was

52:25laid out it took some time for me to

52:27digest uh that news. So spend some time

52:31I will say focus more on learning new

52:33things whether you get the fruit or not

52:36just invest more time in learning. Uh I

52:39know there will be a point where you

52:41will be rewarded. whatever advices I

52:43gave for junior engineers just don't

52:46limit yourself with a specific

52:47technology or location or a company or

52:50function right so try to be flexible

52:53because in all the changes I made I was

52:56flexible in the first job when we got a

52:59project the manager who called me for

53:01the project came to place where we were

53:03all sitting together and he asked like I

53:06want 12 people in business to work in

53:09business intelligence who are interested

53:10so I was the first one

53:12So it's like be flexible because if you

53:16are reluctant to change it because the

53:18technology will change every now and

53:20then. So it will be absolute quickly. So

53:23if you can learn and be aware of what is

53:26happening around you like what is the

53:27industry trend and other things to learn

53:30from and active listening from anyone

53:33right even you may be a senior engineer

53:35junior engineer may have a better idea

53:37than you. active listening from them and

53:40learning from them is very very

53:41important because nowadays engineers are

53:44too good to learn from right so be open

53:48to learn from anyone actually uh that is

53:50very very important especially the

53:52location constraints don't keep the

53:54location constraint I know family

53:56dependency and other things are there

53:58but when there is opportunity try to

54:00take that maybe once you join you can

54:02ask for a relocation or things like that

54:05I have done that in my uh job but you

54:08try uh different things but uh be

54:10patient. I know it is very hard if you

54:12don't get a job uh quickly. I know the

54:15pain. So stay calm, consistently

54:17practice what you're doing. You will be

54:19rewarded at the right right time.

54:21>> Yeah, I love that advice as well. I'm

54:24sure I can tell already that a lot of

54:25people will be inspired and it will

54:27motivate people to make to take action

54:31because you may be inspired, you may be

54:33motivated but the best impact is when

54:35someone is pushed to take action. I was

54:37like, "Okay, now I'm I'm ready to take

54:39action." So, I'm sure that it will

54:41resonate with a lot of people.

54:46>> So, I have a few final questions. One

54:48thing that I definitely want to touch on

54:50is your career at PayPal because you

54:54started at PayPal, but you actually had

54:56a pretty fast advancement in career and

54:59that is not a accident, right? It it

55:02takes it's not only the technical skills

55:05but it's a combination of technical

55:07skills, soft skills, your mindset, the

55:10curiosity, the continuous learning. So

55:12tell me about your career journey at

55:15PayPal and what do you think was the

55:17biggest contributor to your career

55:20success? How you made those steps

55:23basically so fast? And specifically in

55:27parallel to that because you did some of

55:29our programs as well while you were at

55:30PayPal. How did each one of those like

55:33learning resources kind of plug into

55:36your career next step basically at uh at

55:39PayPal?

55:39>> Yeah definitely from the beginning

55:41automation is one thing I was hired to

55:43do automation on the security side of

55:45it. So that is the immediate thing which

55:47helped especially operation engineers or

55:50team will like you when you do

55:52automation for them because it saves a

55:54lot of their time and they can focus on

55:57the core things. So when you get into a

55:59job just see what is the core problem

56:02just because I know Kubernetes I don't

56:04want to implement Kubernetes right so

56:06that may not make any sense for them

56:08right so just try to understand the

56:10team's problem and what is the number

56:13one or number two problem and and pick

56:16the high impact problems if you can

56:18sometimes and also don't take fully high

56:21impact problems take something like uh

56:2370% is high high impact problem and 30%

56:26is low hanging fruit that can solve that

56:28will be something helping them a lot

56:30right so try to pick 70 30%age kind of

56:33view investigate on it so try to

56:34understand uh what kind of uh space they

56:37are working what is the real-time

56:39problem by analyzing their tickets and

56:41the changes what they are making and the

56:43incidents getting created why it was how

56:45it was create postpon was created

56:48evaluated and all those things right

56:50that will give you some insights where

56:51you need to focus and then take a couple

56:54of items and then work with the

56:56stakeholders to understand Because you

56:58may be new to the team or you may not

57:00know the full context about it. Right?

57:01Connecting with the right people and

57:03finding the right people is very

57:05important. Bigger companies it's very

57:06difficult to find the right people

57:08because it's huge. Right? So you need

57:10the right people to connect with to

57:12understand the context behind that why

57:14it is working like this because you

57:15cannot make a architectural decision or

57:17process decisions immediately without

57:19knowing the complete aspect of it. So

57:21understand and connect with the right

57:23people and then focus on doing a small P

57:26or something like that because people

57:28will trust you when you show something

57:30not when you say I know something. So

57:32try to uh prove by doing something

57:35because we cannot always complain about

57:36the problem. We need to give the

57:38solution to the problem. So try to solve

57:40the problem with the small use cases and

57:42gain the trust with people and then go

57:45more deeper. So that is the approach

57:47which I followed uh in all the projects

57:49what I involved and also be open to

57:51share with others. That is one thing

57:53which I do every day. Uh company runs a

57:56mentorship program. I participate in the

57:57mentorship program and also I mentor

58:00people officially one person and

58:02officially many people. So be that

58:04person right uh be the person you can be

58:07trusted right in the decisions what we

58:09make and uh in the real feedback what we

58:11give right because toughest feedback is

58:14the one we don't want to hear right so

58:16that is something you have to open to

58:18hear I have listened to some of the hard

58:21feedbacks I was not good at it so I'm

58:23improving it I'm not perfect I'm

58:25improving myself every day learning from

58:27others that is the approach I take

58:30>> amazing amazing I love

58:32>> [music]

58:36>> next to. So in parallel to your career

58:38advancement at PayPal, you also became a

58:41Docker captain AD as community builder.

58:43And I remember I actually read your your

58:46email where you said that back then

58:49probably when you started watching our

58:50videos, you saw the docker captain title

58:53that I had and you thought it was not

58:56like easily accessible to you. And then

58:58fast forward right now you have the

58:59title, you have the the Docker captain,

59:01the AWS community builder. So tell me

59:03about how did you get them, you know,

59:06what was your reaction? What was your

59:09you know, I'm I'm sure you were proud of

59:10it, but like what was the the feeling of

59:13like having these titles in addition to

59:15your career success at a company like

59:18PayPal? What was that like?

59:19>> Yeah, definitely. So before even Dr.

59:21captain in the AWS community builder. Uh

59:23I was in the Microsoft most valuable uh

59:25professional program for 4 years. I used

59:27to watch people right. So the main thing

59:30I wanted to achieve that first thing you

59:32need to find out how to do that right.

59:33It's not something because I know

59:35something and apply and it is getting

59:37approved. So they really evaluate how

59:39you are engaged and how you are sharing

59:41the knowledge with others and community

59:43friends. Right. First with Microsoft

59:46MCP. So that helped me a lot in learning

59:49about community how we can learn from uh

59:52different people around the world right.

59:55So you may be trying to do something

59:57with a region specific experience or

59:59something when you're involved in

1:00:00communitydriven activities you know

1:00:02different people the way they develop

1:00:04ship uh it'll be different right so you

1:00:06may learn that so that is the first

1:00:08thing and then when I started learning

1:00:10about docker and other things I was

1:00:12casually checking your profile in the

1:00:14AWS community builder profile I guess I

1:00:17saw AWS hero badge and docker captain

1:00:20also because I got Microsoft MVP I

1:00:23thought uh it is easy to get a docker

1:00:26captain in this community builder

1:00:28program but devops is very big right I

1:00:30cannot go and claim that I want this bad

1:00:32because of this right so I need to wait

1:00:35for it actually I was on a Florida trip

1:00:37with my family that is when uh uh just

1:00:41two weeks before I applied for the

1:00:42program it took nearly 2 years for me to

1:00:45learn all this and implement it and

1:00:47share my real experience in the forum

1:00:49and in my workplace and other things

1:00:51which helped me to give the confidence

1:00:53when I first saw saw that budge in your

1:00:55profile. I thought no obviously you're

1:00:57not going to give it to me because

1:00:58you're too good in DevOps and Kubernetes

1:01:01space cloud and other things. So this is

1:01:04definitely not for me right. So I was

1:01:06underestimating myself even though I got

1:01:08something in the past but I was

1:01:10underestimating but learning is

1:01:12something going to change you a lot.

1:01:14It's not that u I'm saying this proudly

1:01:16but very humbly I'm saying if you learn

1:01:18in a consistent way and share uh with

1:01:21others definitely these things you will

1:01:24get it. So I applied for it before the

1:01:26Florida trip. During my trip I was in

1:01:28Florida in Disneyland and I got a email

1:01:31from docker team that you were awarded

1:01:34with the docker captain. So when I saw

1:01:36that very few people in the US got this

1:01:38and also MVP also and community builder

1:01:41these programs really really helpful and

1:01:43not only in learning things what is

1:01:45coming new and all those things but also

1:01:47the way I interact with people the how I

1:01:50create the content uh how I share the

1:01:53knowledge back in the company right so

1:01:55that is really really useful so when I

1:01:57received it I could not even believe

1:01:59because docker is something it was not

1:02:01in my career at all right and then I

1:02:04learned it from different people

1:02:06especially mostly from you. So that

1:02:08helped me to get this. So when I

1:02:10achieved that I could not even believe

1:02:12that right. So it's all God's grace I

1:02:14will say on top on top of everything

1:02:17what I'm saying. So thank you so much

1:02:19for that inspiration.

1:02:20>> I love that by the way. I love the

1:02:22timeline of you saw it for the first

1:02:24time and you saw you thought this is out

1:02:27of reach. This is probably not for me.

1:02:29I've not done anything with Docker. Then

1:02:31there was a time where you were like

1:02:33wait a minute maybe it is possible. So

1:02:35you it became realistic at some point

1:02:37and then you just said let's reverse

1:02:40engineer how to actually get there

1:02:42because there must be a plan right there

1:02:44must be a way and it took a long time

1:02:46but there was a very specific laid out

1:02:48plan and you just followed it and you

1:02:50got it like it is it is extremely

1:02:53inspiring. It's it's amazing. I'm also

1:02:55very proud of you and I'm also proud to

1:02:57have been a part of that type of

1:02:59journey. It's it's it's amazing to to

1:03:01hear such

1:03:02>> basically the plan is nothing but your

1:03:03course uh curriculum basically I will

1:03:06say because it's a new space for me when

1:03:09I started learning about all this right

1:03:11so the entire course helped me because

1:03:13uh we use that every day right even

1:03:16though it is just doctor we use it in a

1:03:18different use cases right so it's all

1:03:21learning from your course plus I would

1:03:24like to thank other content creators

1:03:26like you like code cloud cloud with Raj

1:03:29who is my very close friend. So I

1:03:30learned a lot of things from him. I

1:03:32think last time you came to New York,

1:03:33you met him. I wanted to meet him in New

1:03:36York but I couldn't travel that time.

1:03:38But I'm in touch with him every now and

1:03:40then. So with good people. Yeah. That is

1:03:43my advice. Yeah.

1:03:44>> Which also confirms what you said which

1:03:46is find the right people, learn from

1:03:48them, network with them. You befriended

1:03:50one of them. I know Raj, he he's amazing

1:03:52as well. Before we get to the final

1:03:54topic, I want to take a moment to

1:03:56explain what Docker captain and AWS

1:03:59community builder titles actually are

1:04:02because if you're not deep in the DevOps

1:04:04ecosystem yet, those titles may not mean

1:04:07much to you and they are actually very

1:04:10honorary titles in the field. So, Docker

1:04:13Captain is a program run by Docker

1:04:16itself. There are roughly 60 people in

1:04:19the world who hold this title at any

1:04:21given time. So Docker selects them based

1:04:24on two things. Real demonstrable

1:04:28technical expertise in the container and

1:04:30Docker ecosystem.

1:04:32And second, consistent community

1:04:35contribution, meaning articles, talks,

1:04:38forum contributions, open-source work,

1:04:41sharing genuine knowledge with the

1:04:43broader community and so on. So you

1:04:46don't study for a test. It's not

1:04:47something that you apply for and you get

1:04:49it. It comes from years of doing the

1:04:52work publicly and consistently where

1:04:55they assign you this honorary title

1:04:58because you earned it through your work.

1:05:00AWS community builder is a similar

1:05:03program run by AWS Amazon Web Services,

1:05:06a larger group but still a real

1:05:08recognition that requires demonstrated

1:05:11expertise and active engagement. So very

1:05:13similar criteria. What I find meaningful

1:05:16about Joseph's timeline is that it took

1:05:19him nearly two years from when he

1:05:21decided to seriously pursue Docker

1:05:24Captain to the day he received the

1:05:26email. Two years of building, writing,

1:05:30sharing, not in order to get the badge.

1:05:32That was not his sole purpose of doing

1:05:35that, but because that's already what he

1:05:38was doing. So it was actually a side

1:05:41byproduct. The badge was recognition for

1:05:44work that he was already doing. And this

1:05:46connects to something that I've observed

1:05:48consistently across the engineers who

1:05:50reach a senior level and keep advancing

1:05:54which is community engagement is not

1:05:56separate from their learning. It is the

1:05:58learning in many cases. So when you

1:06:00write an article about a topic that you

1:06:03have worked with, you actually

1:06:05understand it at a different depth than

1:06:08when you just read about it. When you

1:06:10explain something to a colleague or in a

1:06:13blog post or on LinkedIn, you find the

1:06:15gaps in your own understanding very fast

1:06:18so you can fill those gaps and get a

1:06:20deeper knowledge. Joseph has been doing

1:06:22this for years. The Docker captain title

1:06:25and the AWS community builder

1:06:27recognition are basically just visible

1:06:30results of that work, but the real

1:06:32result shows up much more directly in

1:06:35his day-to-day in the architectural

1:06:38decisions that his team trusts in the

1:06:41junior engineers that he's mentoring in

1:06:43the 9,000 hours that his team saved

1:06:46through automation at PayPal. So these

1:06:48are tangible practical results from his

1:06:51knowledge. And now the last topic and

1:06:53it's one of the most relevant for anyone

1:06:56watching this right now which is AI and

1:06:59what it actually means for a career in

1:07:01DevOps or Dev Sec Ops. Joseph has a very

1:07:04specific grounded take on this and it

1:07:08comes from someone who manages a cyber

1:07:09security engineering team at one of the

1:07:12world's largest payment companies.

1:07:18So I have two final questions. Uh the

1:07:21first one is a huge topic right now and

1:07:23I would really love to have your um

1:07:26insight here and also advice from you to

1:07:30uh a lot of the you know again like a

1:07:32lot of junior engineers who fear it and

1:07:35they feel threatened by it but also a

1:07:37lot of experienced engineers who are

1:07:38maybe in a little bit more outdated IT

1:07:40roles like networking network engineers

1:07:43you know data science um you know CIS

1:07:46admins and so on. uh because you also

1:07:49have a unique perspective of not just

1:07:51you know engineer but you're also uh a

1:07:54managing a manager of uh cyber security

1:07:57engineering uh at a large company. So

1:08:00what is your career advice to people

1:08:02that are feeling threatened by AI? And

1:08:06many times they're asking themselves, is

1:08:09it actually worth for me to invest next

1:08:11two to three years learning uh something

1:08:14that may get outdated in the future

1:08:16because AI is going to take over any

1:08:18every single job including the IT roles.

1:08:21What would you tell those people uh in a

1:08:24way that they actually believe racially

1:08:28um that they are not completely

1:08:31threatened and going to be replaced by

1:08:33uh AI?

1:08:34>> Yeah, definitely there are couple of

1:08:36spaces definitely I think we can

1:08:38contribute a lot with all the other AI

1:08:40productivity tools, right? So security

1:08:43and infrastructure side of it, right?

1:08:45the way we ship even if it is AI it runs

1:08:48on a bare metal server somewhere on a VM

1:08:51or somewhere right so infrastructure

1:08:53provisioning or managing the

1:08:55infrastructure that is definitely not

1:08:57going to change it's going to be there

1:08:58for a long time I will say and security

1:09:01right we know we know about the shared

1:09:03responsibility model when it comes to

1:09:05AWS right so you know what AWS will take

1:09:08care and what we need to take care what

1:09:10is the application deployment team will

1:09:11take care so these AI tools right now

1:09:14there is no shared respons

1:09:15responsibility model at at all like it

1:09:17generates based on what it is trained

1:09:19right so maybe the responsibility and

1:09:22ownership side of it is definitely going

1:09:24to be there for a long time even though

1:09:26we buy different tools and other things

1:09:28end of the day the tools will be managed

1:09:30by us and I will say learn about the

1:09:33forward deployed engineer role

1:09:35responsibilities that may be future lot

1:09:38of job roles I'm seeing as dep forward

1:09:40deployed engineer roles so maybe we can

1:09:42learn from what is expected out of that

1:09:45role, right? And maybe you may be

1:09:48running you may be running a team of

1:09:49agents, right? And you may need to

1:09:51orchestrate like whoever it is, you may

1:09:53be the orchestrator. So just learn about

1:09:55that aspect as well. But definitely

1:09:58human context uh in terms of developing

1:10:00the project in a company is really

1:10:03really important. There are a lot of

1:10:04automation scripts and other things you

1:10:06may not know the language and other

1:10:08things that is not required anymore

1:10:10maybe. the way you implement the pattern

1:10:13your company follows the compliance

1:10:15record for the application and other

1:10:17things that will be managed uh and

1:10:19developed by us right so definitely

1:10:21there will be a lot of opportunities in

1:10:23that space

1:10:23>> when we created dev sec boot camp I

1:10:25remember doing the analysis and it was

1:10:28literally the statistic that there were

1:10:30the probably the least dev sec ops

1:10:33engineers in the world compared to the

1:10:34other IT roles it it was so rare the

1:10:38profession itself was rare which is also

1:10:40understandable because it combines like

1:10:42three very huge IT professions in one

1:10:45role which is one human being basically

1:10:48doing uh the this type of breadth of

1:10:51things in IT. Would you say that because

1:10:53of AI and because of things becoming

1:10:56even less secure because of a lot of

1:10:58experimentation and using AI agents the

1:11:01security and dev sec ops specifically so

1:11:04security in DevOps is become has become

1:11:06even more important than before that

1:11:08companies find it even more valuable

1:11:10now. Would you agree with that?

1:11:11>> Yeah definitely security is something

1:11:13even today right in our pipelines we are

1:11:15using uh because the code it generates

1:11:18that has to be validated. We may have

1:11:20tools for it also that needs to be

1:11:22evaluated whether it is catching the

1:11:24right thing or not. Right? In the

1:11:25security side of it, even though the AI

1:11:27tools and other things are introduced,

1:11:29we can use both, right? The tools like

1:11:32uh secret scanning and other

1:11:34vulnerability scanning tools and other

1:11:36things that may catch based on the

1:11:39patterns in the past, right? Or the

1:11:41vulnerability numbers and other things,

1:11:43right? But with AI, you can use both

1:11:46these tools. maybe AI based code review

1:11:49or security review and other things you

1:11:51can build on top of CI/CD pipeline that

1:11:53will understand your codebase right

1:11:55because these tools may not understand

1:11:57your whole codebase maybe AI models with

1:12:00the context what you're giving it can

1:12:02understand what is your company standard

1:12:04what is the security practice you need

1:12:06to follow and how one issue is related

1:12:09to the other issue in from one module to

1:12:11the other module right so all these

1:12:12things can be caught by this AI tools

1:12:15and LL models that will help the develop

1:12:17Because it's not about finding 100

1:12:19vulnerabilities and throwing them to

1:12:21developers to find out how you are going

1:12:23to solve this, right? Uh it's not about

1:12:25that. It's about giving the plan or road

1:12:28map. This is your codebase. These are

1:12:30all the vulnerabilities. This is the

1:12:31high impact ones and you need to solve

1:12:34this. If you solve this problem, this is

1:12:36the return on investment and this is the

1:12:38security posture you are going to close.

1:12:40Right? So all those things, right? It's

1:12:43not going to be achieved with one single

1:12:44tool. Not just LLM, not just the tools

1:12:46what we use like code rabbit and other

1:12:48tools, right? So maybe combination of

1:12:50these two will definitely help. So

1:12:52learning AI specific skills in this

1:12:55aspect is definitely going to help

1:12:56because everyone is going to develop,

1:12:58right? I have seen uh people like

1:13:01program managers and others they build

1:13:03tools like a rapper on top of other

1:13:05tools, program management tools and

1:13:07other things. I have seen but I have

1:13:09seen uh a scenario where nontechnical

1:13:11person developed something when they

1:13:13came to me they don't know where to

1:13:15deploy this and how to do doctorize and

1:13:17deploy this in a secure way CI/CD

1:13:19pipeline and other things that's where

1:13:21you can help right so learning this

1:13:23space is definitely going to help

1:13:25>> and I'm going to add on on top of that

1:13:27to kind of summarize the AI versus IT

1:13:29plus the security aspect is that a lot

1:13:32of people have this lick mindset of like

1:13:34there there is nothing else to do there

1:13:36like everything's going to be taken over

1:13:38over by AI. But the field is so rich and

1:13:41so diverse. There's so many things. It

1:13:43is a hu like hugely complex thing which

1:13:46is a disadvantage when you're an

1:13:47engineer who is frustrated to kind of

1:13:50handle all this stuff. But it's also an

1:13:51advantage because it's so complex. It it

1:13:54has the infrastructure provisioning

1:13:56part. It has the CI/CD delivery part. It

1:13:58has the Kubernetes cluster management

1:14:00part. Then security comes on top of that

1:14:02in every single step in that pipeline in

1:14:05that processes. And there is so many

1:14:07things that engineers still need to do

1:14:09that AI is not going to magically take

1:14:12over because these are lot of moving

1:14:14parts where AI you just use it as a tool

1:14:16in addition to with other tools to just

1:14:18make your work easier. So there is an

1:14:20abundance of tasks for engineers there

1:14:23to do and it will stay like this for

1:14:25next years and I think the fear comes

1:14:28mostly from the people who don't have

1:14:30that insight into DevOps and don't know

1:14:32how complex of an ecosystem that is and

1:14:34security is like its own beast basically

1:14:37on top of that complexity

1:14:39>> it's like I may know many things but

1:14:41security is something going to live

1:14:42everywhere right so learn security

1:14:45aspect of everything like access and

1:14:46security part how it is going to be

1:14:49given to the users right what is the

1:14:51author and authentication process

1:14:53involved in all of this

1:14:55>> going to stay right so definitely uh

1:14:57these two areas and infrastructure

1:14:59access and security these three things

1:15:01are not going away so you have to learn

1:15:04some tools and processes new trends

1:15:06around this topic that will definitely

1:15:08help

1:15:12so I have a last question for you you

1:15:14are a manager of cyber security

1:15:16engineering at PayPal you have a docker

1:15:18captain captain title. You have the AWS

1:15:20community builder title. What is your

1:15:22next step? Like what what is it that you

1:15:24are you aspire to do now in as the next

1:15:27steps or multiple steps in your career?

1:15:30>> Yeah, definitely. So hands-on is

1:15:32something which I really like always

1:15:34staying on top of what I'm doing but at

1:15:37the same time that should not limit my

1:15:40team members in taking the decisions

1:15:43like their own ideas and what they are

1:15:46learning should come into light right so

1:15:49I need to help the team uh not just uh

1:15:52what based on what I know I just wanted

1:15:55to be curious to learn from them my

1:15:58perspective is like I wanted to go in

1:16:00the same level like with some uh

1:16:02hands-on experience as well. I think

1:16:04being an individual contributor is

1:16:06something good for me as well in the

1:16:08future. So you have seen like lot of

1:16:10CTOs becoming individual contributors in

1:16:13LinkedIn. So uh staying on top of the

1:16:16technology and hands-on is something I

1:16:18wanted to continue to do and help others

1:16:20as well. That is my goal.

1:16:22>> Awesome. Joseph, this has been extremely

1:16:24inspiring for me as well. Thank you so

1:16:26much for sharing your story, for sharing

1:16:29your advice to a lot of engineers that

1:16:31I'm sure will be inspired by the this

1:16:33and they need that advice a lot of them.

1:16:36Thank you so much for sharing that. It

1:16:38was one of my favorite interviews to be

1:16:40honest.

1:16:40>> Yeah, definitely. Thank you so much for

1:16:42this opportunity as well. It's all based

1:16:44on my realtime experience what I'm

1:16:46sharing. It may not be relevant to you

1:16:48or it may be something the way you

1:16:50wanted to receive this may be

1:16:52differently but at one point I feel and

1:16:54hope that this advices and whatever

1:16:57conversation we had like that is going

1:16:59to help someone. Uh thank you so much

1:17:01for watching this video as well and

1:17:02thank you for this opportunity. Please

1:17:04check out my LinkedIn profile and

1:17:06website. Yeah, we'll we'll leave all the

1:17:08information down there and the the

1:17:09website where you mentioned where people

1:17:11can get in inspiration for maybe

1:17:14projects that they can present for job

1:17:16search and so on. We're going to link

1:17:18them. Thank you. Thank you so much,

1:17:20Joseph.