L'homme qui sait tout sur le Ballon d’Or (et ses secrets)

0:00I was the Frenchman voting for the

0:02Ballon d'Or , he's unlucky , he fell

0:04right into that period which , in the

0:06end , isn't that long . There are years

0:09where it was Messi , Ronaldo , it was

0:10indisputable . When the votes came in ,

0:13we saw that the coach , the captain , and

0:15the journalist had the exact same vote .

0:19Well , there we said , it's the Communist

0:20Party that voted . Ronaldo , he took it

0:22badly all the years he didn't get it .

0:23There you go . No , no , but let's be

0:25clear , he took it badly every year he

0:26didn't get it . You tell me , okay , if

0:28I'm talking nonsense , you cut it , okay ?

0:30Understanding everything about the

0:31Ballon d'Or . Today , I am joined by

0:34someone who followed the history of

0:36this trophy for 40 years as a reporter

0:38and then editor-in-chief at France

0:40Football and then L'Équipe . Gérard

0:43Ejnès , hello .

0:44Hello .

0:44Before my eyes , I have this book , the

0:46Ballon d'Or encyclopedia , of which you

0:49are the author . I'm showing it on

0:50screen . By the way , we'll be giving it

0:52away . Just write " Ballon d'Or " in the

0:54comments , and we'll award this work to

0:56one of you . So we're counting on you to

0:58participate in this little contest . We

1:01are a few podcasts in now , and we'd

1:02like to thank you for your loyalty . So

1:04this is the opportunity . First of all ,

1:06where does this passion for the Ballon

1:08d'Or come from , and what pushed you to

1:11write an encyclopedia ?

1:13Well , the passion for the Ballon d'Or

1:14is first and foremost a passion for

1:16football , obviously . So , when I was a

1:19little kid , I only envisioned one

1:21future for myself , which was being a

1:24journalist at L'Équipe . L'Équipe and

1:28France Football are the same group ,

1:30they were , even at the time , often the

1:33same journalists . So I didn't have a

1:35plan B , it was that or nothing at all .

1:38Okay .

1:39So there you go . Well , probably because

1:42I got a lot of momentum , I managed to

1:44get ahead of the others solely for that

1:46reason . As for qualities and talent ,

1:48that's something else . It's not for me

1:50to judge . But anyway , I managed one day

1:52, when I wasn't exactly a beginner as a

1:55journalist anymore , to join the Amaury

1:56group , the L'Équipe / France Football

1:58group . It was in 1978 . In April 1978 ,

2:05and

2:0622 years after the first Ballon d'Or .

2:07Yes , 22 years after the first Ballon

2:09d'Or . I was already born when the first

2:11Ballon d'Or happened , by a long shot .

2:13So , I was immediately plunged into the

2:14world of the Ballon d'Or , because when

2:16you arrived at France Football , there

2:18weren't many staff journalists at

2:20France Football . There were four of us ,

2:22and of course , we also wrote for

2:23L'Équipe . People joined the France

2:25Football team , but we were more

2:26attached to France Football and we

2:28immediately realized that what drove

2:30life at France Football — back then it

2:32was a very , very big football weekly .

2:34That sold several hundred thousand

2:36copies every Tuesday

2:37but all year round there were these

2:40ulterior motives and these thoughts for

2:43the Ballon d'Or , for the big year-end

2:45event , and I realized very quickly how

2:48important it was and to what extent . It

2:51was necessary to maintain a mystery

2:52around it . The name of the game ,

2:54was for the reader to learn it in the

2:56newspaper . There were obviously no

2:58other other ways . There was no internet

3:00, there were no social networks . We

3:03learned the news in the paper , but

3:04there were many journalists , especially

3:06foreign ones , who were trying to find

3:08out , who came to visit us to know who

3:10was going to win the Ballon d'Or , all

3:12that . So , we felt that it was something

3:14extremely important .

3:15And afterwards , did you follow the

3:17Ballon d'Or for 40 years ? Well , I

3:19followed it . Yes . Uh , well , you have

3:22more or less . In any case , I started my

3:24career at France Football for several

3:26years and I finished it as

3:27editor-in-chief , so I ended up being

3:29the French juror for the Ballon d'Or .

3:31Hm .

3:31There you go . So ,

3:32uh

3:33French juror , which means uh concretely

3:34,

3:35well , it means that I was uh the

3:37Frenchman who voted for the Ballon d'Or

3:39. Yes , it's journalists who vote , we'll

3:42talk about it again , journalists from

3:44all over the world . So , one per country

3:47.

3:47Yes .

3:47And at France Football . In France , well

3:50, it's the editor-in-chief of France

3:52Football who votes , which is logical .

3:54We're not going to ask someone from

3:55another press outlet , from another

3:57media , to vote when we are the ones

3:58organizing it .

3:59So I ended up voting . Of course , I

4:03didn't vote all alone in my corner , we

4:05discuss it with the editorial staff ,

4:07but in the end , it was my name that

4:09appeared in the paper for the French

4:11vote . So it's a

4:13for how many years was that ?

4:14Well , I did that in the 2010s , I would

4:16say . It was the end of my career and ,

4:19however , social networks had arrived ,

4:22of course , which didn't exist when I

4:24arrived in '78 , and that was a

4:27different story . We would vote , our

4:29name was there , so people would react ,

4:32right . We know the

4:34the drill , they're happy , they're not

4:35happy .

4:36There , they gave their opinion . But ,

4:38you know , I also realized , even more so

4:40of course , because when I arrived , I

4:41didn't vote when I first started , it

4:42was Jacques Ferrand who voted .

4:45He was the editor-in-chief of France

4:47Football and one of the founders of the

4:48Ballon d'Or .

4:50Yeah .

4:50So.

4:51Who passed away in 2019 , he was the

4:52last one . That's right .

4:53Yes . He passed away in 2019 . He left

4:56the paper in 1985 . He retired in 1985 .

5:00I was very close to him , strangely

5:02enough , much more so after he stopped

5:04and towards the end of his life . Uh .

5:06And I loved going to his place for him

5:08to tell me stories , especially about

5:10the Ballon d'Or . Now that was always ,

5:12that was always magical . He had a

5:14wonderful memory , he remembered

5:16everything and he had so many anecdotes

5:18. So that's how , yes , we can say that

5:21the Ballon d'Or has accompanied me from

5:23the start of my career until the end of

5:26my career , of course .

5:28And so this book , you wrote it for the

5:29first time in 2019 . That's right , a

5:31first time in 2019 because we realized ,

5:34since I was writing a lot for the

5:36publisher Solar .

5:38Yeah .

5:39And we realized with the director of

5:41Solar editions that there wasn't , even

5:43though there was a lot of passion

5:46around the Ballon d'Or , there wasn't a

5:48reference book that really covered

5:50every topic . Not just saying so-and-so

5:53won it such-and-such year , and doing a

5:55profile of them that year . No , we

5:57wanted to do something complete . So ,

6:00truly an encyclopedia , even if it isn't

6:03presented alphabetically ,

6:05but it is an anthology of the Ballon

6:07d'Or . I think the subject is treated in

6:10all its aspects . We will , we will , I

6:13think we'll talk about it again . And so

6:17yes , for those who are passionate about

6:19the subject , it's a gold mine , without

6:20wanting to make a pun . It's a gold mine

6:23because everything is in there . Knowing

6:26that the book was released in 2019 but

6:28was reissued . In 2023 after the victory

6:32of Karim Benzema . Benzema . I devoured

6:35this book these last few days to

6:37prepare for the podcast , and there is a

6:39part that interested me , for which I

6:41didn't know quite a few details , which

6:43is the origins of the Ballon d'Or . And

6:47I learned that the idea came from a

6:49simple discussion in 1956 , actually ,

6:51between Jacques Ferrand and some of his

6:53journalist friends at France Football .

6:56Exactly . You have to realize that back

6:58then , journalists were also inventors ,

7:00especially in sports . Why ? Because we

7:03had to create content .

7:05H

7:06These are the same journalists who

7:08invented the European Cup a year or two

7:11before . The European Cup didn't exist .

7:14And that means football news was only

7:16on the weekend , but the paper came out

7:18every day .

7:19But it was only the leagues , you know .

7:20It was the leagues . Exactly , it was the

7:23weekend leagues and the French league ,

7:25because it's the same thing ; we're in

7:28the 1950s , you have to realize there

7:30were no images , no TV . We didn't know

7:33the English league ; we only knew it

7:34through newspapers . The Italian league ,

7:36the German league , the Spanish league

7:38that we follow now . The five major

7:40leagues could only be followed through

7:42France Football . France Football was

7:43the newspaper that covered foreign

7:45football the most . There were

7:46correspondents

7:48in every country , and every week , there

7:50was an article on every single European

7:52foreign league

7:53and even Brazilian , of course ; there

7:55was a correspondent in Brazil .

7:57So it was a newspaper that was very

7:59focused on foreign football ,

8:01France Football . But just as for

8:03L'Équipe , we had to create , so they

8:05invented the European football cups ,

8:07which created news in the middle of the

8:08week , some weeks .

8:10So that meant more sales , you know .

8:13That's why they looked for what they

8:14could invent for France Football . I

8:16talked about this a lot with Jacques

8:18Ferrand . He was unable to say who had

8:20the idea . In the end , it comes from

8:22discussion , but then we don't know who

8:24was the first to say , " What if we

8:26created a trophy to reward the best

8:27players ? " during a talk . Often , in the

8:29end , we don't even know anymore ; there

8:31are four or five people there . They

8:33were very imaginative people , and this

8:35idea emerged to do it at the end of the

8:37calendar year , so in December , that is

8:39to say before Christmas , a period when

8:41the leagues stopped , when there was no

8:43more news , really .

8:45The leagues stopped in December back

8:46then .

8:47Well , it was the break ; it’s like how

8:49it can exist now , it’s the winter

8:50break . So , it was more or less long

8:52depending on the year , but there was a

8:54break and it was complicated . So , let's

8:56invent some news ; we will award a

8:58trophy for the best European player . At

9:01the time , there was no talk of a "

9:02Ballon d'Or . " The term " Ballon d'Or "

9:04would come later . It will arrive in

9:061963

9:08when the Soviet goalkeeper at the time ,

9:10Lev Yashin , is rewarded . It's the first

9:13time we see the name Ballon d'Or appear

9:15on the front page of France Football .

9:16Before that , it was the best European

9:18player , number 1 European . It didn't

9:20even take up the whole front page of

9:23the paper . H

9:24I have French news in the middle ; from

9:271963 the name Ballon d'Or arrives , in

9:3064 we don't know why it disappears

9:32again and it is from 65 that the Ballon

9:35d'Or officially becomes the name of the

9:38award . Officially it's not written , but

9:41it is written on the front page of the

9:43paper at any rate since 1965 every year

9:45. It's Ballon d'Or . Afterward , it

9:47became something more serious , a

9:48registered trademark . So it's something

9:50else , of course . Now it's the Ballon

9:52d'Or . And back then , I read that logic

9:54suggested the award should be in the

9:56shape of a small statuette of the

9:58player . Why a ball in the end ? Because

10:00it's not obvious .

10:01No , no , uh no . Stanley Matthews who

10:03received it . He's the first who was

10:06crowned by a jury of 16 European

10:08journalists from 16 different countries

10:10. There you go , there were 16 of them .

10:12A rule a bit like today , there were

10:13they voted for five players but they

10:15chose whoever they wanted . There were

10:17no nominees like now .

10:19They voted for whoever they wanted . So

10:21they put down five names then it was 5

10:22points for first , 4 points for second .

10:24There you go . Now the small difference

10:26is that it's 6 points . We create a

10:28two-point gap between 1st and 2nd to

10:30highlight the first place .

10:32But no , the presentation , there are

10:34images , by the way , the photos . There

10:37was the ball , there wasn't the name

10:38Ballon d'Or . He received a small ball ,

10:40he could have , he could have perhaps

10:42also received other things . The photos

10:44we see

10:44from that time are the presentation of

10:46the ball . It takes place at his club in

10:49England , at Blackpool . He was playing

10:51at Blackpool , then , and

10:52he was 41 years old .

10:53He was 41 years old . So Stanley

10:55Matthews is a player who played until

10:56he was 50 . He was a winger , a right

10:58winger , a dribbler , an extraordinary

11:00dribbler . Obviously , you had to have a

11:01lot of imagination back then , eh . It's

11:03the same . The images we saw were in the

11:05newsreels at the cinema . If we wanted

11:07to see football footage , sometimes we

11:08saw a few images during the newsreels

11:10at the cinema . There were always the

11:12newsreels at the cinema , the Pathé

11:13news , but imagination allows you to to

11:17believe that players do impossible

11:19things .

11:20H

11:20when you see the reality . Then , you

11:22have to get to Messi to say , " Messi ,

11:25they do things , yeah , truly impossible ,

11:27but not everyone does that . " So ,

11:30Stanley Matthews , in the end , he was

11:32crowned not so much for that year , but

11:34for his entire career . Everyone admired

11:38Matthews . So , they voted for Matthews

11:39that year , but he hadn't won anything .

11:41He wasn't the English champion , he

11:43hadn't won the FA Cup , but he had his

11:45career behind him . It was from the

11:47following year that the vote was really

11:50based on the season , on the year , on

11:52the calendar year , and then more

11:53recently , more logically , it returned

11:55to the sporting year . Meaning that the

11:58Ballon d'Or , instead of being awarded

12:00at the end of the year , is now earlier .

12:02Uh , this year , it will be earlier than

12:05ever because the date chosen is

12:07September 22nd , and never has a Ballon

12:09d'Or been awarded this early . For the

12:11calendar year . In recent years , it was

12:13awarded at the end of October . And now ,

12:15it will be as early as September 22nd

12:17to clearly show that it covers the

12:19preceding year and then the next year

12:22will have started . Of course , the next

12:24season will have started , but only just

12:26. We will be , we will be in September .

12:27Why did this change happen ? Because , in

12:29fact , we realized that we were

12:31sometimes rewarding at the end of the

12:33year a player who had played in one

12:34club the first part of the season and

12:36in another club the other part . Uh , it

12:38happened for several players , so it

12:40wasn't very satisfactory . So , we had to

12:43reward , well , the very best players

12:45generally aren't transferred in the

12:47winter market , right , so they stay in

12:49their club , so we also reward a club in

12:51a way .

12:52h

12:55In 1983 , the Ballon d'Or took on a new

12:58form , that of a real ball , sized to the

13:00size of a football , simply because at

13:03the time it was smaller , at the

13:05beginning it was a tennis ball , at the

13:08beginning .

13:09or there it was

13:10the shape , the size , the size was a

13:12tennis ball , and it's true that it was

13:15when we look at it today it seems a bit

13:17ridiculous , why , because we know the

13:19current ball .

13:20Actually , my question is how to arrive

13:22at a result that is finally

13:24aesthetically so perfect , so '83 , I was

13:26at France Football when

13:28Platini's victory

13:29when , uh , the change was made . So , of

13:32course , there was the fact that , well ,

13:35the votes arrive gradually , right , it

13:38was at the end of the year . Well , we

13:40realized , we realized quite quickly , it

13:42would be Platini . So he was a French

13:45player . Now , there had already been a

13:47French player who had won it , it was

13:49Kopa ,

13:50the first great modern star of French

13:52football in 1958 after the '58 World

13:53Cup . He was playing for Real Madrid ,

13:57plus my friend Kopa , so he was a

13:59European champion , 3rd in the World Cup

14:01and , uh ... and we said to ourselves , for

14:04Platini , who is French , the little ball

14:06... besides , Platini was someone a bit

14:08complicated , he was never happy , really

14:10. So we said : " Whoa ! " If he also starts

14:13making comments about the small one ,

14:15the small ball , it's not going to work .

14:17" So the idea was to say : " Well , after

14:19all , we call it the Ballon d'Or , it

14:20needs to look like a ball . " So it's

14:22more expensive , for sure . So , well ,

14:24contact was made with the jeweler

14:26Mellerio , it's still the same one who

14:29makes the Ballon d'Or today . Well , it

14:32was up to him to create the object

14:33really , because we are just journalists

14:35, we aren't artists , we aren't jewelers

14:37, we don't know how to do that . So it

14:39was the jeweler who had to come up with

14:42a few designs , of course , but in the

14:44end , a football is panels , it's a ball ,

14:46it's round . Then , we also had to invent

14:50the base , of course , with the beautiful

14:53stone , and that's how we ended up

14:56presenting Platini with a real ball . A

15:00real ball . Well , I think he was happy .

15:03But there’s an anecdote there too ,

15:05the ball was presented . Now , I don't

15:07know if that year , it might have been

15:09that year at the Grévin Museum . Now ,

15:10the Grévin Museum is the

15:12museum where we have , well , the statues

15:15, well , the wax figures of famous

15:18personalities .

15:19So , we asked Platini to go to the

15:22museum next to his double , his wax

15:24double , but that didn't please him at

15:27all . And there’s a photo in the book

15:30that is very funny , where you see the

15:32fake Platini with a big smile and the

15:34real Platini with his Ballon d'Or

15:35making a face because he really didn't

15:37like the whole thing . The real Platini ,

15:40the fake Platini , it didn't please him

15:41at all .

15:42Just a little anecdote , some details .

15:44The Ballon d'Or weighs 10 kg .

15:46It weighs 10 kg , or

15:48uh , and its value is € 14,000 .

15:50That's right . € 14,000 . € 14,000 .

15:52We sometimes see Ronaldo lift it with

15:54one hand . That's still 10 kg .

15:5510 kg ? Yeah . Well , that's fine , but

15:58look , Messi has already won € 14,000

16:00eight times , so if he ever wants to

16:01sell them , I think if he wants to sell

16:03them , he'll sell them for much , much

16:05more . The real Ballon d'Or , Messi's

16:07real trophies , if he put them up for

16:08sale on the internet or in an auction

16:10house , obviously he would sell them for

16:12hundreds of thousands of euros .

16:14The rules of the Ballon d'Or have

16:16evolved a lot since its creation . I

16:19know it's complicated , complex ,

16:21sometimes incomprehensible to some . Can

16:24you explain to us roughly how they have

16:26changed over time and for what reason ?

16:29Well , what's complex is that we are

16:32rewarding an individual , an athlete

16:36within a team sport . If we want to

16:40reward a skier , a cyclist , or a tennis

16:42player , it's much simpler . Uh , they

16:46depend on themselves , on their

16:48performances , even if in cycling there

16:50is a team . But

16:51when you're in a team sport , it's

16:54harder . Sometimes , there are obvious

16:56choices . In basketball , which is played

16:58by 5 , when you come across Michael

17:00Jordan or Magic Johnson , you can

17:01clearly see the brilliance , or well ,

17:03it's just on another level . In soccer ,

17:06it's sometimes more complex , and above

17:08all , what were we supposed to reward ?

17:09That was the question . What were we

17:11supposed to reward ? The player's

17:13individual performance or the record ,

17:15meaning the collective performance .

17:18What have they won ? Is it what they've

17:20won that counts and comes first ? Is it

17:23their individual performance that comes

17:25first ? And that is where the rules ,

17:28beyond the globalization that we might

17:31talk about , that is where the rules

17:33have fluctuated over time .

17:37Sometimes , it was the collective

17:39performance that took precedence .

17:42Sometimes it was the individual

17:43performance , but in truth , it means

17:45nothing because the juror , the one who

17:48votes , well , they do what they want .

17:50They do what they want . Yes , we are

17:52going to give them a set of rules .

17:55There is an official set of rules that

17:57exists . And well , the current official

18:00rules put individual performance first .

18:03And that's very important . That's very

18:05important . For example , maybe we'll

18:07talk about it for the 2025 Ballon d'Or

18:09that's going to be awarded . We can

18:11clearly see , uh , to what extent , well ,

18:14we more or less know who the potential

18:16candidates for the Ballon d'Or are ,

18:19right ? As of today , there are three ,

18:21maybe four , but in truth , there are

18:23three . So , if we take individual

18:26performance , and it was the same during

18:28Messi's time , individual performance is

18:30the reason Messi won it so often . It's

18:33not always because of the trophy

18:34cabinet . We'll say , well , the one who

18:37dazzles the most is Yamal today . It's

18:40Yamal .

18:42That's criterion number one . It is

18:43currently written in the regulations .

18:46And when you're French , and the rules

18:48were made by the person in charge at

18:50France Football , uh , even if it's a bit

18:52of a collective effort , but anyway , by

18:54the editorial staff of France Football ,

18:56you think , " Oh yes , but this year "

18:59Oh yeah ! And there is also the , the

19:01performances . Dembélé , he won this ,

19:04he won this , he won this , he won this ,

19:06maybe he'll win again , we don't know .

19:08So there it is , and each juror is faced

19:10with this dilemma of saying , " But what

19:13do I prioritize ? " Is it the artistic

19:16side , ultimately ? Artistic side .

19:20Uh .

19:20The player dazzles me . He dazzles me .

19:22He scores goals . He dazzles me . Yeah ,

19:24but his club , oh yes , but his club was

19:26eliminated in the Champions League

19:28semi-finals . But I don't care . It's so

19:30beautiful . What he does is so beautiful

19:31. Or to say , " Yeah , but wait , there's

19:33one who scored goals and gave assists .

19:35" Trophy cabinet : French champion ,

19:37champion of this , champion of that ,

19:38European champion , maybe world champion

19:40, we don't know . So , so in truth , this

19:42problem has never been solved because

19:45it's insoluble , because you have to be

19:47inside each juror's head . If it were a

19:49jury that met like at the Cannes

19:51Festival , we'd say they meet , the

19:52jurors , they say " Well , this film , that

19:54film , " but they discuss it among

19:55themselves . But here , there is no

19:57discussion . Each juror , one is in Peru ,

20:01one is in Armenia , one is in Sweden ,

20:04one is in South Africa , but everyone is

20:07truly all alone

20:10with their own degree of information .

20:12Obviously , the perspective on European

20:15football from an Italian juror compared

20:17to , say — and I'm just throwing out an

20:20example because it's not the case

20:22anymore — someone in Nepal , it's not

20:24exactly the same . Now , the number of

20:27jurors has been reduced recently ;

20:30it’s the 100 jurors from the top 100

20:34teams in the FIFA rankings . The idea is

20:38that we consider we have more

20:40specialists , people who are better

20:42informed about football than if we go

20:45to remote places like Nepal , where they

20:47might say , " We don't really know . "

20:50It’s complicated , and it’s also

20:52difficult to find jurors . I experienced

20:54that at France Football . Sometimes you

20:56think , " Well , there are 200 countries

20:57that can vote . " When we reached 167 or

20:59170 voters , that was the maximum ,

21:00because in some countries we just

21:02couldn't find anyone ; we’d send

21:03emails , we'd have the addresses , but

21:05we'd get no response , we couldn't find

21:07them . So it was simpler to say , "

21:09We’ll take the top 100 , " but that’s

21:12still 100 jurors , each in their own

21:14corner , with their own perspective ,

21:16their own vision , and their own level

21:19of information on global football news .

21:22No matter how good a regulation you

21:23make , from the moment everyone votes

21:25alone in their own corner , in their

21:26office , in their newsroom ,

21:29there will be surprises . Not every year

21:31, of course , but there will be

21:33surprises .

21:34So , until 1995 , only Europeans could

21:37win the Ballon d'Or .

21:39Yeah .

21:40If that rule had never existed , in your

21:42opinion , which non-European player

21:44would have won the Ballon d'Or ?

21:45Oh , that’s easy . Pelé , for starters .

21:48How many for Pelé ? Well , Pelé , we

21:50talk about him — I talk about him a bit

21:52in the book — three , four , five times .

21:55It's difficult because , as I just

21:57explained , people are voting .

22:00For sure in '70 , of course , the World

22:02Cup , for sure in '70 it would have been

22:04Pelé , no ?

22:05Or in '58 , too ?

22:07Well , in '58 ... It's not certain for '58

22:11. With our modern mentality , probably .

22:15Because he achieved a feat at such a

22:17young age . In '58 , probably not . It

22:19would likely have been Didi , the

22:20captain of the Brazilian team .

22:22He would have been crowned . We could

22:24imagine maybe Pelé , maybe Pelé , but

22:26back then , the number of goals counted

22:28for much less . Meaning , today we are

22:29very attached to statistics .

22:31That was less the case at the time . The

22:33proof is Just Fontaine , a French center

22:35forward who played for Stade de Reims

22:37back in '58 and was the French national

22:40team's striker , scoring 13 goals . 13

22:42goals in six matches . In six matches

22:46back then , there were only 16 teams

22:47that

22:47A performance never repeated , by the

22:49way .

22:49Never repeated .

22:50Today . We can well imagine that anyone

22:52scoring 13 goals in seven or eight

22:54World Cup matches now , the Ballon d'Or ,

22:56it’s not even worth voting . He gets

22:58it , we'll vote anyway . But he gets it .

23:00Well , it wasn't Fontaine who got it . It

23:02was Kopa , who was another French player

23:04and the playmaker for the French team .

23:06He was Fontaine's passer , if you will ,

23:08and played for Real Madrid , which won

23:10its 3rd consecutive European Cup that

23:12year . It wasn't called the Champions

23:14League back then ; it was the European

23:15Champion Clubs ' Cup . Pelé maybe not in

23:18'58 , but in '61 - '62 , without a doubt .

23:21He scored a huge number of goals , but

23:23the thing with Pelé is that most of

23:24his goals were scored in friendlies

23:26because his team , Santos , did a lot of

23:28tours . They played 100 matches a year .

23:30It was total madness to bring in money .

23:33They treated him like a sideshow

23:34attraction , really . They had Pelé and

23:36showed him off everywhere . The stadiums

23:37were full . People wanted to see Pelé .

23:39Poor Pelé sacrificed his health and

23:41was often injured . And if he was

23:44injured , well , the tour was interrupted

23:45because people wanted to see Pelé ;

23:47they didn't want to see Santos . Santos ,

23:49even if there were good players , it's a

23:51good team , but you had to see Pelé . So

23:52Pelé often played while injured , uh ,

23:55but , well , he scored a huge number of

23:57goals . So that's why they say Pelé

23:59scored 1,261 goals , but in truth , no .

24:02His official figure stops at around 750

24:05or 760 , no more , in official matches .

24:08So Pelé would have won it , for sure .

24:10And then Kempes , the Argentine , would

24:13have won it in 1978 almost certainly .

24:15Now Kempes , he played in Europe ; he

24:17played for Valencia in Spain . And that

24:20year , '78 , is a very interesting year

24:22because it's the only time

24:25that the Ballon d'Or was awarded to a

24:27player who didn't participate in the

24:28World Cup .

24:29Uh

24:30It's the Englishman Keegan , right , who

24:32played for Hamburg at the time . Why ?

24:34Well , because it was Argentina that had

24:36dominated the World Cup . Uh , there was

24:39Kempes . You should know that for the

24:411978 Argentina World Cup team , there

24:42was a big debate in Argentina . Should

24:44they take young Maradona , who was a kid

24:46of 17 ? In the end , they didn't take him

24:49. We could have maybe seen Maradona in

24:50'78 , though he wouldn't have played the

24:52whole World Cup . Maybe we would have

24:53seen him . He ended up arriving 4 years

24:55later in the '82 World Cup . And so ,

24:57Kempes wasn't eligible because he

24:59wasn't European . He played in Europe ,

25:01but he wasn't European . So , Keegan got

25:03it instead . The only player to have won

25:05the Ballon d'Or in a World Cup year

25:07without playing in the World Cup . And

25:09so it was in 1995 that it was specified

25:13in the regulations that all players of

25:16any nationality could win the Ballon

25:20d'Or , provided they played in Europe at

25:23the time . In truth , today the rules

25:26evolve ; it's normal , they adapt to

25:28changes , to globalization , to the

25:31evolution of our planet and our

25:33societies . In truth , we can say that we

25:36have the right to award the Ballon d'Or

25:38to a player who plays anywhere . It's

25:41impossible for it to be awarded to a

25:42player who doesn't play in Europe ,

25:44because all the best players play in

25:46Europe . We can look at the state of

25:48football . It's impossible for it to be

25:50a player who doesn't play in Europe .

25:51But despite everything , it is allowed .

25:54It is allowed .

25:54On paper . It is allowed .

25:56If we want to vote for a Peruvian who

25:57plays in Peru , we can vote for the

25:59Peruvian who plays in Peru . On paper ,

26:01it is allowed . So the real turning

26:03point was '95 , and it's even more

26:05symbolic because that year , it's the

26:07only African player who has ever won it

26:10— George Weah . And so finally , this

26:12change in regulations that year was

26:14very fitting because of the

26:15globalization aspect with an African

26:17player , although of course he played in

26:19Europe , and he played part of the time

26:21at PSG , he's one of those players who

26:23was at two clubs , and then he went to

26:24Milan , I think . Hm .

26:26And so it's George Weah , and that is of

26:29course a shock : an African player who

26:31won the Ballon d'Or , and there haven't

26:33been any others since . But the big , the

26:36great upheaval of course , is 1995 , even

26:38if later in 2007 , the last major

26:40regulatory evolution occurred , meaning

26:43the vote was no longer just European

26:45but on a global scale , so there were

26:48jurors from all over the world . So at

26:50the time it was as many countries as

26:52possible , as I mentioned earlier , but

26:53it has now been reduced to 100

26:55countries . And so that’s 2007 and

26:57it’s a Brazilian , Kaka , who uh who

26:59wins the Ballon d'Or .

27:00For a long time , there were three

27:01categories of voters for the Ballon

27:03d'Or :

27:04coaches , captains , and journalists .

27:07Only to eventually leave just the

27:08journalists as voters . For what reason ?

27:11Well , it wasn't for a long time at all .

27:13It was for it was for 6 years . It’s

27:15for only 6 years . It’s it’s in 2010

27:18. Actually , I’m from 2000 , so I lived

27:20through that period .

27:21Of course . On the scale of your life ,

27:23it is a long time . On the scale of mine

27:25, it isn't a long time . On the scale of

27:26humanity , it’s a tiny drop in the

27:28bucket . So , and actually here is what

27:30happened . That was a shareholder

27:33decision , meaning the bosses of the

27:35Amaury group who are owners of

27:37L'Équipe and France Football in

27:39particular , and also ASO which

27:41organizes the Tour de France and so on

27:43and so forth . So , what was happening is

27:47that FIFA , the international football

27:48federation , had decided for some time

27:50to also reward the best player of the

27:52year , to hold its own ceremonies ,

27:53because it helps bring people together ,

27:55bring players together , get people

27:57talking about FIFA , and so on and so

27:58forth . Of course , TV had arrived in the

28:02meantime , back in the day I I don't

28:04know of any filmed footage of the

28:06presentation of the Ballon d'Or to

28:07Stanley Matthews .

28:09I’ve never seen any . Does it exist in

28:11England ? I don’t know . But in any

28:13case , we can't find it . I haven't been

28:14able to find any . Now , of course , image

28:16is what matters most . So , there was uh

28:19FIFA which had decided to reward uh its

28:21best player . So , either we ended up

28:24with the same one , which was a bit

28:27weird , why would he have two trophies ,

28:30or it wasn't the same one , which was

28:33even weirder because , well , that

28:35doesn't make sense . Why is the Ballon

28:39d'Or saying something like Messi and

28:42FIFA saying Ronaldo ? That doesn't work .

28:46So it was a bit shocking , a bit

28:48incomprehensible for people .

28:50and also for financial reasons , because

28:53FIFA had the resources to organize huge

28:55ceremonies in Zurich , much more

28:58prestigious and — we have to say it —

29:00much more expensive than what could be

29:02organized in gigantic halls .

29:05Of course , of course . I attended those .

29:07It’s — it’s a show , really . It’s

29:08a bit of an American-style show , which

29:09is what it’s become a bit like now .

29:11And so it was decided to pair the two ,

29:14not only for sporting reasons as I just

29:16explained , but anyway , so we found

29:19ourselves with our jury of journalists ,

29:21and then FIFA arrived with its jury ,

29:24which was the national team captains

29:26and the national team managers . And so

29:30that made for three different juries in

29:32the end , well , each voting the same way

29:35, the points added up , and everything

29:37was mixed together to create . That

29:40lasted until 2016 . 2016 . It naturally

29:45created problems because we quickly

29:47realized that the journalists and the

29:49footballers — so to speak , the managers

29:51or people from the football world —

29:53didn't vote in the same way according

29:55to the same criteria , even though the

29:57criteria were the same by regulation ,

29:59they didn't vote the same . That means

30:03that at least twice , players who would

30:06have had the Ballon d'Or today , before

30:082010 and after 2016 . So today , at least

30:12two players who would have won it

30:14because the journalists had placed them

30:16well in the lead didn't get it . The

30:18first was the Dutchman Sneijder .

30:20Sneijder in 2010 played for Inter Milan

30:23. Inter Milan , which won the Italian

30:27championship , the Italian Cup , the

30:29Champions League , coached by José

30:30Mourinho at the time , the great

30:32Portuguese coach .

30:34And Sneijder went to the World Cup

30:36final in 2010 . Beaten , beaten , he lost

30:40the final . But still , even so , he had

30:42an incredible record , a playmaker , a

30:44very fine player , Sneijder , a very fine

30:46player . Then came the vote from the

30:49FIFA side : manager and captain , we do

30:51the additions . Sneijder ends up 4th ,

30:53not even on the podium , 4th , that is to

30:56say devoured , notably by Messi . And

30:59that’s when we understood that the

31:01football people , they look at and judge

31:03based on themselves . Meaning that a

31:06captain , he's going to judge : " Who

31:07would I want to play with ? " Well ...

31:09with Messi , right ? With Sneijder , the

31:12manager , who would I want to select for

31:14my team ? Well , Messi , right ? If I have

31:16a choice between the two , I'm taking

31:18Messi . There was this aspect where the

31:20spectacular side completely

31:21overshadowed the achievements , and the

31:24same thing happened to Franck Ribéry

31:26in 2013 , which was a tragedy for him

31:28that he frankly never psychologically

31:30recovered from . He was far and away

31:33first with Bayern Munich , German

31:35champion , German Cup winner , Champions

31:37League winner . And honestly , he was the

31:39architect along with Arjen Robben , they

31:41were the two key figures . And yes , he

31:45was the architect of the Champions

31:48League victory

31:50and finding himself there , it was

31:52extremely painful . Why for him ? Because

31:55the results weren't known in advance . I

31:58mean , back in the day , of course , the

32:00player knew beforehand because at the

32:01very beginning they would do an awards

32:02ceremony to take photos , and it would

32:04end up in the paper . But all they had

32:06to do was ask the players not to talk

32:08about it , and there you go , the secret

32:10remained well-kept . That wasn't

32:11possible anymore , obviously . So ,

32:13Ribéry is in the room with Messi and

32:16Ronaldo . They were the three nominees

32:19for the podium .

32:21You can see it on his face when Ronaldo

32:23is announced ; you can clearly read

32:25Ribéry's disappointment .

32:27Terrible . Terrible .

32:28Do you think he deserved it ?

32:29Well , it's not that I think he deserved

32:31it . I'm just saying that if it had been

32:34the system that existed until 2010 and

32:36from 2016 onwards , it would have been

32:38him , since the journalists voted for

32:40him . It's not even a question of me

32:42saying he deserved it , I'm just saying

32:43he would have won it .

32:44He would have won it . That's it , those

32:46are the facts ; he would have won it . He

32:47was unlucky . He fell right into that

32:49period , which wasn't that long after

32:50all , where there were years that were

32:52indisputably Messi and Ronaldo . But for

32:55Sneijder and Ribéry , they can say that

32:57if the system hadn't changed during

32:59those years , they would have had the

33:01Ballon d'Or . It is quite cruel , really .

33:03There it is . Hm . In your book , I found

33:05a really interesting section about the

33:08smallest point gaps between the winner

33:10and the runner-up .

33:13In '96 , only 3 points , that's not

33:15Ronaldo the Brazilian over Sammer , the

33:17defender . In 2019 , only 7 points ,

33:20that's Van Dijk over Messi . Actually ,

33:23there's even more , because in 1966 ,

33:25there was a one-point gap

33:27h

33:28between Bobby Charlton who wins and the

33:30Portuguese Eusébio , the great star of

33:32Benfica Lisbon at the time , who was

33:34winning European Cups and was the top

33:36scorer of the World Cup . There was one

33:39point , but at least Eusébio could

33:41console himself knowing he had already

33:43won the Ballon d'Or , but Van Dijk never

33:46had it . He finished 7 points behind

33:48with many more voters . Meaning that a 7

33:51- point gap with Van Dijk's vote based

33:53on the number of voters , in truth , is

33:56much less than one point back when

33:58there were 18 , 19 , or 20 jurors ;

34:00proportionately , it's less . So yes , he

34:03can have regrets . Though , not that many

34:06, because it comes down to the number

34:09of first-place votes , the point margins

34:11existed , and Messi had many more

34:13first-place votes than he did . Well ,

34:17there it is , that's the main issue with

34:19rankings ; you can win a league by 20

34:21points like PSG , or you can win it by

34:23one point on the last day or on goal

34:25difference .

34:27It's just like that . It's the numbers ,

34:29it's the math . There you go . H

34:32Regarding the journalists ' votes , you

34:33were talking about that earlier . Uh ,

34:36today , they are the ones who elect the

34:38player of the year , alone , as we were

34:40saying .

34:41One journalist per country .

34:42Yeah .

34:43How are they chosen ? But how is the

34:45secret kept until the very end ?

34:48Well , the secret — the secret is that

34:50each journalist votes but doesn't know

34:52how the other journalists voted . They

34:55send their vote to France Football , so

34:57they only hold the secret of their own

35:00vote , but even if they don't keep their

35:03vote secret around them , it doesn't

35:05give the final result out of 100 voters

35:08. After that , well in some countries ,

35:14we go to prestigious sports press

35:17outlets to find them . We go find , I

35:20don't know , in Italy , it's La Gazzetta

35:23dello Sport , the major sports newspaper

35:25, so for football — it's essentially

35:28football and Formula 1 in Italy ,

35:30and tennis , because they have Sinner

35:32now . And , well , we go find the head of

35:35the football section , we offer it to

35:37them . So that's quite easy . In other

35:39countries , it's extremely complicated .

35:41You have to find — you have to find a

35:43press outlet . We have had , and it's

35:44difficult because , for example , when

35:46every country was involved , there was

35:48Vietnam , for instance , voting . Now ,

35:50that was during the period — I don't

35:51know which year , but it's easy to find .

35:53During the period of FIFA France

35:57Football . So there were three voters .

35:59We had found a journalist in Vietnam .

36:01But it's kind of state-run press in

36:03Vietnam . Free press doesn't really

36:06exist . Anyway , it was the Vietnam news

36:08agency , the guy who handled sports and

36:10everything . When the votes came in , we

36:13saw that the coach , the captain , and

36:15the journalist had the exact same vote .

36:19Well , we figured it was the Communist

36:21Party that voted . That's , that's why

36:23it's complicated . We look for

36:26journalists , but of course , you have to

36:28take the political context into account

36:30. At one point , I remember , we looked

36:32in Syria , we didn't find anyone , the

36:34situation was too complex in Syria , we

36:35couldn't find anyone . We sent emails ,

36:38we send emails , we try to get emails ,

36:39we get no response , we don't know , we

36:40can't manage it , we just can't . So they

36:43are chosen . Some have been there for a

36:45very long time , so they're the veterans

36:47. Then , when one retires or when we

36:51need to find one , well , it's actually ,

36:53it's a quest . We search , we look at

36:56what press organizations are

36:58responsible for them . We ask someone if

37:00they know anyone in a certain country

37:02because it's a neighboring country . So

37:03we'll say , hey , this jury looks good .

37:06It's a neighboring country , maybe they

37:07can advise us . It's not that simple .

37:09And then , effectively , we end up with

37:11people we don't know . We don't know

37:13them . We've never seen them in truth .

37:15So , we'll ask them to vote , and they

37:17will vote . Then , if there's a ,

37:19there's always a risk with

37:20well , there is a risk . Afterwards , if

37:21there's a mistake , you could say it

37:23will get diluted among 100 votes . The

37:24guy who — sometimes there are votes

37:26that are quite extremely surprising .

37:28Exactly , yeah , that is the question .

37:30Every season , we question the

37:32objectivity of the voters .

37:34I have some examples right here in

37:35front of me . In 2023 , for example ,

37:37the Argentine journalist who put four

37:39players from the Albiceleste in his top

37:405 .

37:42In 2024 , the one from Nigeria who put

37:44Lookman in first place . In 2022 , the

37:47one from Senegal put Sadio Mané at

37:49number 1 .

37:50Yeah .

37:51Besides these somewhat jingoistic

37:52examples , there are also quite curious

37:54votes like the Norwegian journalist in

37:562024 who placed Mbappé and Haaland

37:58ahead of Vinícius and Rodri .

37:59Yeah .

38:00How can we explain these sometimes

38:01bizarre votes ? But in truth , we can't

38:03explain them . Actually , yes , there is a

38:04part that is explainable . I was

38:06explaining earlier that what has

38:08changed a lot compared to the very

38:10beginning of the Ballon d'Or is social

38:12media . You have to realize that for an

38:16African journalist , for example , not

38:20picking their own player , if they have

38:22a player nominated , is complicated .

38:25It's complicated . Now , putting Lookman ,

38:28who had a great season , in the top five

38:31is logical . Putting him number one ,

38:34well , that's deciding to be a little

38:37star in your country . That's it , and

38:39also avoiding trouble . Avoiding trouble

38:42, and that's important . It's the same ,

38:44uh , because

38:44there are unofficial directives

38:45sometimes . No , it's not that there are

38:47directives , but we can see it's easy

38:49for us . In France , someone votes , well ,

38:50they vote and that's that . Then maybe

38:52people will say it's good , people will

38:54say it's not good , they'll get insulted

38:55on social media , but it'll stop there .

38:58Then there are countries where it's

38:59very political . There you go , you have

39:00to know that . Africa , I don't need to

39:02explain it to you , it's a complex

39:03continent . It's , well , it's easy for us

39:06French people to say yeah , we vote , but

39:08no , there are people for whom it's

39:09complicated . Yeah , but Sadio Mané ,

39:11he's Senegalese , he picks Sadio Mané .

39:13Yes , well I understand , I also

39:15understand why , even if you might think

39:17he could have put him 2nd or 3rd for

39:19example , but well , you understand why .

39:21Then the Argentine , well , it's the year

39:23Argentina won the World Cup against

39:25France . Well , we understood that it was

39:28a bit confrontational between France

39:29and Argentina . There were statements ,

39:31that Martinez guy , the Aston Villa

39:33goalkeeper , who was taking digs at

39:35Mbappé , at others , mocking the French

39:38and everything . Well , the journalist is

39:40caught up in that , so he puts four

39:41players from his country . Well , yeah ,

39:43it's not

39:44is it , is it

39:45not logical , if he's Argentine , well ,

39:46he does what he wants .

39:48Do all these votes , in the end , turn

39:51the award into a kind of trophy that

39:54has lost its value ?

39:56No , not at all , not at all , because

39:58these are actually exceptions . You

39:59cited exceptions . Yes ,

40:01but still ,

40:03if there was a one-point difference at

40:04the finish , we could say , no , that's

40:05not right . One voting for Lukman ,

40:06another for what's-his-name , another

40:08for someone else . But that’s not the

40:10truth , that’s not the case . So no , in

40:12the end , it’s part of the charm that

40:14everyone votes in complete freedom .

40:17Everyone votes in complete freedom with

40:19their own criteria , ideas , perspective

40:21on football , and pressures — sometimes

40:23even political pressures they might

40:25face . But there it is ; the Ballon d'Or

40:27incorporates all of that . Meaning it

40:29reflects the state of the world . The

40:30state of the world , and the state of

40:32the world is complex . So sometimes , the

40:34voting is a bit complex .

40:35To finish this part about the

40:36journalists , I have one last question .

40:38In your opinion , are journalists more

40:40qualified to vote for the best player

40:42of the year than national team coaches

40:44and captains ?

40:47Well , they aren't more qualified . It's

40:50just that the Ballon d'Or was created

40:51by France Football . It was a jury of

40:53journalists from the start . Those who

40:57think that coaches and captains carry

41:00more weight and are more trustworthy

41:03will say the FIFA trophy is better than

41:07the Ballon d'Or . But in truth , we

41:11realize that's not the case ; the Ballon

41:12d'Or has built up a prestige over the

41:14years that is honestly a bit crazy . A

41:17bit crazy , meaning it drives people

41:19crazy . I remind you — and you know this

41:22as well as I do — that nobody from Real

41:24Madrid attended the last ceremony .

41:28Really . It's ... honestly , it’s

41:32insulting to the Ballon d'Or , it’s

41:34insulting to Real Madrid , it’s

41:36insulting to that club , because they

41:39guessed , they guessed that Vinicius

41:42wouldn't be rewarded , whereas Vinicius

41:44would have certainly been rewarded

41:47under the 2010 – 2016 system with FIFA ,

41:49the coaches , and the captains . It would

41:53have been Vinicius for sure against

41:55Rodri here . It was Rodri . That is where

41:57we see the outlook . The different

41:59perspectives held by these two worlds :

42:02the journalists versus the players and

42:05the coaches . It shows how much

42:07importance the Ballon d'Or has taken on

42:09, that people from Real — even though

42:11Carlo Ancelotti was named best coach ,

42:14so he couldn't even come to receive his

42:16award — it’s hurtful for him , all the

42:18same .

42:19For several years , Cristiano Ronaldo

42:21has repeated that the Ballon d'Or has

42:23lost a lot of its value . He loves

42:25saying that in every interview .

42:27Yes , ever since he stopped having it .

42:28Yes , I know .

42:30How do you see the link between Ronaldo

42:32and the Ballon d'Or , and the

42:34frustration it created in him ?

42:37Well , it's complicated because we're

42:39talking about a player who won it five

42:41times . So , the frustrations of a player

42:44who won it five times are hard for us

42:45to grasp because others have never won

42:47it . And so , what should Lewandowski say

42:50? Perhaps we'll mention that he would

42:52almost certainly have won it in 2020 ,

42:54but due to Covid , it wasn't awarded .

42:57Well , we can always argue whether that

42:58was right or wrong , but it wasn't

42:59awarded . Ronaldo won it five times .

43:03Ronaldo's problem is that he was

43:04engaged in a personal match with Messi

43:06that he declared himself , because Messi

43:08, he doesn't care ; Messi isn't into

43:10that . Messi is just a normal guy who

43:14goes home after practice . But Messi

43:16said it hurt him when Ronaldo equalized

43:21at five . Now , that's a very surprising

43:26statement coming from Messi , because

43:29when the Ballon d'Or is awarded , the

43:31recipient always gives an interview to

43:34France Football .

43:36h

43:37With Messi , it was never simple either ,

43:39because by the time he reached eight ,

43:41he was surely tired of it , but honestly

43:42, Messi's interviews weren't very

43:44interesting . That's the truth . And

43:46about that sentence , we wonder if

43:48someone whispered it to him , because

43:51it's a real punchline . They call it a "

43:53punchline . " He never used to make those

43:55. " I'm happy to have ... " Yes , I am

43:57happy . Oh my goodness . " But my record

43:59will be broken anyway . " That's what he

44:00says in the preface . " My record will be

44:02broken one day . " He was at seven .

44:04Uh , six the first time , seven the

44:06second time . It will be broken , maybe .

44:09But yeah , it's not certain , is it ? It's

44:11like Fontaine's 13 goals in the World

44:13Cup . It's not certain . Oh yes , when

44:15there are 164 teams in the World Cup

44:16and you need 16 matches to reach the

44:18final , the record will be broken . But

44:20as things stand , it's more complicated .

44:22So there you go . So yeah , but maybe

44:25Messi was a bit annoyed at one point

44:27seeing how much Ronaldo , with his

44:29oversized ego — but also an oversized

44:31talent , of course , that went very well

44:34with the ego — was attached to that .

44:37For him , it was very important to be

44:39the best . We can clearly see Ronaldo

44:41doesn't want to stop . He doesn't want

44:44to stop , he'll play until he's 100 , and

44:46the Portuguese coach will never dare

44:48not to pick him . Well , we can see he

44:51just scored two goals recently in the

44:53Nations League . So there it is , that's

44:55Ronaldo ; they aren't the hardest goals ,

44:56he doesn't score like before , but it

44:57doesn't matter . He's there , he's an

44:59extraordinary athlete , and so he is

45:02very attached to that . The individual

45:05reward , being better than the others .

45:08Being better than the others . So , there

45:10you go . And so , it's true that since he

45:12hasn't had it and knows he likely won't

45:14get it anymore . Unless at the next

45:16World Cup in a year , Ronaldo is the top

45:17scorer , then he'll get the Ballon d'Or ,

45:19right ? But that's not a given , though

45:22why not ? Everything is possible .

45:24Everything is possible . Well , obviously

45:25.

45:26I think he took it badly that he didn't

45:27win in 2018 .

45:29in favor of Modric .

45:32Anyway , Ronaldo , Ronaldo took it badly

45:34every year he didn't get it . There it

45:36is . No , no , you have to be clear , he

45:38took it badly every year he didn't get

45:39it ; for him , it should be him every

45:40year . So there , at the same time ,

45:42that's what makes this player so strong

45:43. Meaning such self-confidence , such

45:46certainty of being the best , much

45:48stronger than the others and much

45:50stronger than Messi , it's what also

45:52allowed him to achieve all his

45:54performances . You shouldn't criticize

45:56that , you shouldn't even mock it .

45:57Simply , one might find it strange . But

45:59why is it strange ? Because all human

46:01beings aren't built the same . He , he is

46:03built like that . So , he has

46:05disproportionate personal ambition

46:07between him scoring 60 goals and

46:09winning the Ballon d'Or with his Real

46:11Madrid team when they were eliminated

46:14in the quarterfinals , or winning the

46:16Champions League while scoring only 23

46:18goals . He doesn't hesitate , he doesn't

46:21hesitate . He takes the 60 goals , that's

46:23Ronaldo , he is how he is . And that duel

46:26with Messi was very interesting because

46:28they were two human beings built in a

46:30totally different way . Totally

46:32different . One of them was like a child

46:35, an elf who would go on the pitch and

46:38dribble past everyone . It was a bit of

46:40magic .

46:41And .

46:42And it was finesse , and Ronaldo was

46:44strength . And between the two of them ,

46:47well , they've hogged the Ballon d'Or 13

46:50times . 13 times . That is just

46:51incredible .

46:52A word about Benzema's Ballon d'Or .

46:54Back in 2022 , which is one of the most

46:56indisputable Ballon d'Or wins , truly

46:58indisputable

46:59in terms of results .

47:01Indisputable .

47:02Benzema was already talking about it as

47:03a dream when he was very young , the

47:04Ballon d'Or .

47:05Of course . Why didn't he get it sooner ?

47:07Because of Ronaldo . But because of

47:08Ronaldo , not Ronaldo's fault , because

47:10he was at the same club as Ronaldo . He

47:11played for Real Madrid . He was , in a

47:13way , as they say in cycling , the water

47:14carrier

47:15for Ronaldo . Now , he scored goals too .

47:17But he put himself , he accepted to be

47:19totally at the service of Ronaldo . Yes .

47:21Which was very intelligent . It allowed

47:23Real to win . Many titles , there was no

47:26conflict between them , but it was

47:27Ronaldo who took all the spotlight .

47:30Necessarily , if only through his

47:32statements , showing up everywhere , and

47:34... no , those abs , always showing the

47:36abs , the abs , the abs , extraordinary ,

47:38Ronaldo's abs ! You have to admit he

47:40hits the gym , you know , to work on his

47:42abs , so he earns them . And once Ronaldo

47:44left and Benzema became the boss of

47:46Real , and Real continued to get results

47:49, and obviously when Real , Real

47:50continued to win , Benzema scored a few

47:53more goals because the goals Ronaldo

47:55used to score , a portion of them , he

47:57was the one who , who scored them in

47:59addition to his own , and he was

48:01indisputable . He was indisputable . He's

48:03a formidable player .

48:04Benzema is the first French Ballon d'Or

48:06winner since Zidane .

48:07He's the first French Ballon d'Or

48:08winner since Zidane .

48:09I think Thierry Henry would have

48:10deserved it . Deserved it . There are

48:14plenty of players who would have

48:14deserved it , but there's only one per

48:15year . All those who have , who ended up

48:17getting it , well , good for them . We say

48:19, uh , Modric got it , Thierry Henry

48:21didn't . Well yes , but it's a question

48:23of era , you have to arrive at the right

48:25time .

48:25But the fact of winning the Ballon d'Or

48:26doesn't make you a better player than

48:27someone who didn't get it .

48:28No , it doesn't make you a better player

48:30, but it makes you enter a certain

48:32legend , a certain pantheon of football .

48:36Proof in the Ballon d'Or books , of

48:38course , Henry is also in this book

48:40because he had good rankings , because

48:42in this book I list all the French

48:44players who have had points , who were

48:46mentioned for the Ballon d'Or , so we

48:48also talk about Thierry Henry , so about

48:51those who didn't win it . Uh , not just

48:54those who won it . But yes , he would

48:57have deserved it , yes yes yes he would

48:59have deserved it but it didn't happen ,

49:01I don't know , it's hard to explain . I

49:04vote . There you go , it wasn't him . The

49:06years he could have won it , but there

49:07was someone who was perhaps better than

49:09him . Yeah . Many speak of an award that

49:12could go to Messi in the coming years

49:14which is the Super Ballon d'Or that was

49:17awarded only once in '89 to Di Stéfano

49:19.

49:20Yeah .

49:20Uh , what is the story behind this

49:21trophy ?

49:23There is no story . In truth , we can

49:25decide whatever we want . There are two

49:28players who never won the Ballon d'Or

49:30who received an honorary Ballon d'Or

49:32with a real official presentation . It's

49:34Pelé and Maradona because they

49:36couldn't win it at the time . In 1989 , I

49:40believe Maradona was champion with

49:42Napoli . Napoli had never been Italian

49:44champions . Maradona played for Napoli .

49:46But he would have won it no problem if

49:47he had been Italian . Maradona , if he

49:49had been Italian , he would have won it

49:51no problem . He was Argentinian , he

49:53couldn't win it . He might have even won

49:55it in 1990 too . Uh , he couldn't win it ,

49:57Pelé couldn't win it . So somewhere , it

50:00was a little awkward even regarding the

50:03prestige of the Ballon d'Or . To say ,

50:06yeah , but at one time some players

50:07couldn't win it , but anyway , they

50:09wouldn't have won it , so it's not a big

50:11deal . But here , Pelé and Maradona for

50:13sure would have won it several times ,

50:15for sure . So

50:17it was decided to award an honorary

50:19Ballon d'Or to Pelé and Maradona with

50:21entirely official presentations . The

50:22front pages of France Football , the big

50:24interviews , and all that . After the

50:25Super Ballon d'Or to Di Stéfano ,

50:27honestly , I don't know why , I don't

50:30know why because he had already won it ,

50:32he had won the Ballon d'Or . So what

50:35happened is that Di Stéfano only won

50:38it once . Why ? When you won it , you

50:41couldn't win it the following year . In

50:421958 , I said Kopa won it . It’s likely

50:45Di Stéfano would have won it under

50:46today's criteria . He couldn't because ,

50:48I don't know , it was decided that way .

50:49B , he got it . It's fine , he got it . It

50:52has to be someone else . Well , uh

50:54it was only one time .

50:55Only one time , he couldn't , no , he

50:56couldn't have had it the year after .

50:58Ah , no , not back-to-back years , no

51:00consecutive years . So in '58 it might

51:02have been Di Stéfano , I don't know .

51:04To get back to the Super Ballon d'Or ,

51:06will there be another one ? But I don't

51:10know , you'd have to ask , well , if the ,

51:13if the shareholder of the company ,

51:15L'Équipe France Football , decides to

51:18invest in a new Ballon d'Or . I don't

51:22really see the point nowadays , I don't

51:24really see the point for

51:25It's the best player over the last 30

51:26years . Is that it ?

51:27Yes , but we can hold any vote we want

51:29at any time . I was actually there at

51:31L'Équipe France Foot at the end of the

51:3220th century . We voted for the greatest

51:34athlete of all time , the greatest

51:36footballer , Pelé , the greatest athlete

51:37, Carl Lewis , I don't know , whatever ,

51:39the best , the best , the best of the

51:40century . Nobody knew what had happened

51:43in 1923 or 1926 , but it didn't matter ,

51:45we voted for a century anyway . It's a

51:47game , truthfully , it's a journalist's

51:49game . So , as for the Super Ballon d'Or ,

51:51frankly , they were awarded . Uh , why did

51:54Di Stéfano get it ? I don't remember . I

51:57can't say . Well , he got it , that's fine

52:00, but well ,

52:01since 1956 , the Ballon d'Or has always

52:03been awarded , except in 2020 .

52:05Yeah .

52:05That year , Lewandowski walked away

52:07empty-handed . You were talking about

52:08that earlier .

52:09Was it a mistake to cancel that Ballon

52:10d'Or ?

52:10No , but I don't know about that ,

52:12because I wasn't there anymore . Now , I

52:14am very close to , and good friends with

52:17, the editor-in-chief at the time ,

52:19whose name is Pascal Ferré , who is now

52:22the communications director for PSG . So

52:27, the truth is , I talked about it a lot

52:29with him . The truth is , he wasn't the

52:32one who made the decision . It came from

52:34above him . It came from above him ,

52:36meaning

52:37uh , the , the bosses . The bosses , the

52:40bosses .

52:41And us journalists , no matter how much

52:43we are editors-in-chief , we're just

52:45employees , you know . Uh , so , we have

52:47bosses , we have bosses above us . It was

52:49complicated because France had stopped

52:51its championship , but it was the only

52:53country that had stopped . The problem

52:55is that it was France after all , it’s

52:57France Football , it’s a French

52:58newspaper , it was difficult . I don't

53:01think it was right to stop it . As long

53:03as you can , you have to keep going . And

53:05Lewandowski deserved it . He gave an

53:08interview afterwards . Well , honestly ,

53:10hats off because he took it well . He

53:12said , " Well , it's not a big deal , it is

53:13what it is . " He was 2nd the following

53:15year , he didn't get it ,

53:16and it wasn't by much . 33 points .

53:17Yeah . Not by much , he didn't get it ,

53:20but honestly , when you look at the box

53:22in this book , at the end we read under

53:24the 2020 Ballon d'Or , not awarded ,

53:26there's a blank , but when you look at

53:29the blank , you see Lewandowski , so it's

53:31as if he were there .

53:35To wrap up , today we're 3 months away

53:36from the ceremony .

53:38Yeah .

53:39You said at the beginning that you

53:40voted for the Ballon d'Or for a few

53:42years .

53:42Yeah , before asking you about this year

53:45, which years exactly did you vote ? I

53:48voted from 2000 ... 2012 to 2016 , but

53:522013 Ribéry , that's for sure . And then

53:56, I don't know , between Messi and

53:57Ronaldo , honestly , I don't remember . I

53:59don't have that memory , but I didn't

54:01vote in any shocking way . Especially

54:03since , as I told you at the beginning ,

54:05it's a bit of a France Football policy

54:08to bring the editors-in-chief together

54:10to discuss it . But there you go . But

54:13this year , yeah , the 2025 vote is very

54:15interesting . Yeah .

54:16Very interesting . It's Vincent Garcia

54:17who votes , right ?

54:18Vincent Garcia , that's right , he's the

54:20editor-in-chief .

54:21Uh .

54:22So it's very interesting , and because ,

54:24obviously , he's the editor-in-chief of

54:27France Football , he's going to have to

54:29vote for French players . Naturally , we

54:32know that this year , there are French

54:34players who will be among the nominees ,

54:36a certain number , at least two who are

54:38among the nominees , which are Mbappé ,

54:40who didn't get the collective award but

54:41is the Golden Boot winner regardless .

54:43And of course , Dembélé , there's ...

54:46badly . Right there , we don't see any

54:49others .

54:50And so , what would you have voted this

54:51year ?

54:54I would have voted for Dembélé . I

54:56would have voted for Dembélé . I would

54:58have voted for Dembélé because in

55:01addition to the collective performance

55:04and the individual performance , there's

55:08the shock of the Dembélé surprise .

55:13The others , we expect them . We expect

55:15them . Well , we're expecting 50 goals

55:16from him . Inevitably , there’s some

55:18trouble . We’ve only been waiting for

55:20his brilliant dribbling for two years .

55:21But he’s got 15 more years in him .

55:23There's trouble , we're waiting for him .

55:25But honestly , Dembélé , 33 goals , 18

55:31assists in 50 matches , involved in 49

55:34goals in 50 matches . That’s just at

55:38the start of the season . Impossible . We

55:40are talking about a Dembélé , but not

55:42this one , it’s a different one . So ,

55:43there’s another Dembélé . There are

55:45Dembélés . Okay , it’s another

55:47Dembélé , not this one . And that , that

55:50is so extraordinary that for me it

55:52deserves it . It means he’s someone

55:55who managed to

55:57break through his glass ceiling .

55:59Dembélé’s glass ceiling , a

56:00brilliant dribbler . Wow , admirable .

56:03Everyone is dazzled and the play ends .

56:06Everyone goes , " Oh damn , that’s not

56:07possible ! He didn’t miss the target ,

56:09that’s not possible . " There you go .

56:11And now , he didn’t miss , he put them

56:12in the back of the net . Not all of them

56:14, but like all players , not all of them

56:15. And I find that extraordinary . I mean

56:18, he’s the most unexpected player of

56:20the year at that level . Not unexpected

56:22for Dembélé , it’s still Dembélé .

56:24He’s a great player who was

56:26unexpected at that level , with those

56:27performances ; the others were expected ,

56:30it was a given . Do you think Mbappé

56:31will win it one day ? We’ve known

56:35since he was 17 , we’ve been talking

56:36about it , Mbappé will definitely be a

56:37Ballon d'Or winner . But it wasn't just "

56:39Mbappé will be a Ballon d'Or winner "

56:41when he was 18 or 19 ; it was " Mbappé

56:42will definitely be a five or six-time

56:44Ballon d'Or winner . " That was the

56:46reality . That was it . And now , he’s

56:48going to be , uh , 26 at the end of the

56:51year , I think . 27 years old .

56:5327 years old , time flies , 27 at the end

56:55of the year . If he doesn’t get it

56:57this year , we’ll say 27 years old . 27

56:58years old . Mbappé hasn't won the

57:00Ballon d'Or at 27 . If we go back 10

57:02years , we’d say , " No way , they must

57:04have rigged it all these years . " But no

57:06, it’s not rigged , he just didn't get

57:08it . That’s what’s incredible about

57:11the Ballon d'Or ; you’d think the

57:12Ballon d'Or list of winners needs

57:13Mbappé for its prestige . Huge player ,

57:16he’s going to win it , he’s at Real ,

57:18it’s impossible for him not to win it

57:20one day . But , we don't know . In truth ,

57:22we don't know why Zidane doesn't have

57:24three Ballon d'Ors . I’ll wrap up with

57:26this . Why doesn't Zidane have three

57:27Ballons d'Or ? Because he gifted two

57:29Ballons d'Or away . He gifted a first

57:31Ballon d'Or to Figo . To Figo , who was

57:34going to become his teammate afterwards

57:36. That was in the year 2000 , because in

57:39November 2000 , right in the middle of

57:41the voting — which took place back then

57:43in November and early December — he

57:45headbutted a Hamburg player in the

57:47Champions League . 5 - match suspension .

57:50Fair play is one of the criteria . It is

57:51one of the criteria . It’s a shocking

57:53image right in the middle of the voting

57:55. Obviously he would have won it in

57:572000 ; Zidane was 16 points behind Figo ,

57:58and as for 2006 , I don't need to

58:00explain why he didn't get it .

58:02There you go , a headbutt once again .

58:04It’s not the first headbutt that cost

58:05him a Ballon d'Or . A second headbutt ,

58:07more prestigious , much more impressive .

58:09Much more impressive . World Cup final ,

58:11pure class . Pure class , headbutt in a

58:12World Cup final . He would have won it .

58:14He would have won it . Even if France

58:15had lost ; maybe France would have lost ,

58:17if he hadn't been sent off . Even if

58:18France had lost , he would have won it .

58:20You think so ? He would have won it , but

58:21Cannavaro won it ; honestly , even if

58:23France ...

58:24There was also Buffon , who wasn't far

58:25off .

58:26Yes , but even if France had lost in the

58:27final , obviously it would have been

58:28Zidane ; Cannavaro wouldn't have

58:30overtaken Zidane , it would have been

58:31Zidane for sure . That’s the big

58:34regret that the Ballon d'Or record and

58:36Zidane have — that Zidane should be

58:38there three times like the greatest . He

58:41should be at the beginning of the book

58:43with those who have won it at least

58:44three times , with the Platinis , with

58:46the Van Bastens , with the Messis , with

58:47the Ronaldos . That’s where , that’s

58:51where Zidane should be , and he ends up

58:53with it once in '98 at the end of a

58:54World Cup where he wasn't even good —

58:56wasn't even good : two goals in the

58:58World Cup final , headers , the Ballon

59:00d'Or .

59:01That’s what hurts the eyes . Yeah .

59:03Two headers , while Dembélé or Mbappé

59:06are grinding all year long .

59:09Well , that’s , that’s the Ballon

59:10d'Or .

59:11Uh , when Paolo Rossi won it , it was the

59:14'82 World Cup . He does nothing all

59:17season because he was suspended first ,

59:18then injured , then he comes back .

59:20It’s some match-fixing scandal , I

59:21don't know what . And he plays the World

59:24Cup , doesn't he . No goals in the first

59:27round , quarterfinals semifinal , final ,

59:326 goals , Ballon d'Or . Three matches ,

59:36Ballon d'Or .

59:37The final impression , as you say .

59:38Final impression . Well , I think we've

59:40covered the Ballon d'Or . Thank you so

59:42much for all these stories , your

59:45all these details . Don't forget , there

59:48is this book that won , which I will

59:50have Gérard sign right after . Thank

59:52you for answering all my questions and ,

59:55well , I hope you were able to tell all

59:57your anecdotes . If you have one more , I

1:00:00But there you go , thank you very much .

1:00:02Everything is fine . Thank you to you .

1:00:03Thank you for having me .