Ludzie modlą się o nasze nawrócenie na heteroseksualizm. Way Of Blonde i Maschines

0:05Good morning , everyone . My name is Karol Paciorek , and today , in the dark . I welcome you all very warmly . I say in the dark because my studio is hosting two beautiful ladies . Karolina and Agnieszka . Hello there . Hi . So , I have stepped into the shadows to give them center stage . I'm only saying

0:23this for those watching , but I have a fixation regarding this conversation , and let me tell you — dear viewers and listeners — since the girls are lesbians , are partners , and are in a relationship , and you talk about it on your social media and all over the internet and in various interviews , I

0:42have the impression that this is a topic in Poland that is still largely unexplored in the sense that there is a lot we don't know . I'm including myself here . I personally don't know many things about the life of a homosexual person in Poland , mostly because I feel that this sphere in Poland is still somewhat taboo in a certain sense .

1:04Maybe I'm wrong , maybe I'm right ; you’ll likely be the experts there , because this is , de facto , your story , so good morning , and please tell me one first thing to start from the very beginning . At what point in your life — because I suspect it was different for both of you — did you realize that

1:24you were , in fact , lesbians ? My story is perhaps a bit longer , because I started at 16 , when I first met a girl I fell in love with , but truthfully , I actually fell — or rather , became infatuated — with a friend who was my friend a long , long time ago . I

1:40think it was back in elementary school . I had no clue that I felt something for her , but I did hold more than just friendship for her . Only after some time , after a few years , did I realize that I felt something more for her than just a friend , and she was something more than a sister , and I wanted to

1:58talk to her about it . I remember it was right around the end of elementary school . We were by a lake in a car , because our families knew each other , so we were on this trip . And by the light of the moon and the stars , I told her that , you know , I felt something for her and so

2:17on . She turned me down then , she said something like , " What are you talking about ? " and so on , saying that surely it wasn't true , that I had just made it up . And well , things weren't the same after that . Although our acquaintance

2:37was quite strange , because she gave me various signals , meaning somewhere in there , there was more tenderness than just between ordinary friends , I would say , on that kind of level , between us . from her side , I mean mostly , I mean mostly from her side , and it was a bit of a setup , because

2:56you could say I was a little bit manipulated by that situation . And when did you realize that ? Or when did you feel it too ? Many years later , because my mom kept telling me : " Be careful , be careful , you're going to get hurt because this person isn't entirely fair and so on , you'll see ,

3:11you'll regret it . " Well , a person who's infatuated . Mom , what are you talking about ? She's great ! She's still in elementary school , what do you mean ? She's my best friend . And my mom : " You'll see , what are you saying ? It's not quite how it seems to you . " As we

3:25know , moms are always , always right , but in elementary school it's hard to agree with them because you think you're the smartest one . Well , and , and that's how it ended . How did it end ? Anyway , it's also described in our book . And then for many years , well , I mean

3:40many years , well , through all of middle school I dated guys , so I totally forgot about it , pushed it aside . And then I fell in love when I was 16 with my first girlfriend , so that's when it hit me that , oh , I think I prefer girls . So , I mean , not 100 % , because I had

4:02guys afterwards , but I think that when it comes to love , it's a relative concept , that we mainly fall in love with a person , though of course , we might be more attracted to the male or female gender . But it is the case that you meet someone and there's that chemistry , and you have things to talk

4:19about and so on , so that's when you form that deeper connection , right ? Based on that principle . Beautifully said , that you fall in love with a person . Very nice , that it's genderless and great . Yes , yes . Well , that's what I think , because I haven't met a guy in my life

4:34that I've just fallen for , like , really hard , so , uh , so , well , I'm with Karolina . I think I'm in love with her a lot more than " hard . " Uh , but I am the type of girl , uh , who , who I think still prefers girls , but , you know , it's

4:53fluid , so it could have ended differently , I'd say . Uh , Agnieszka , Agnieszka already mentioned here that this story , because this story is indeed in the book the girls wrote , with the charming title " Lesby . " And let me ask you about that now , Karolina

5:14. And I will want to return , of course , to what I asked about earlier , but let me ask for a second , is the term " lezbos " a neutral term for you ? Well , it's a bit of a provocation . That book title is already a neutral term for us . Like , it totally doesn't move

5:33us . We even have friends who say to each other , as a joke , " We're going to the lezzos for a party . " Eh , that's kind of our internal slang , but generally the book title came from the fact that when we were active online , people , thinking they were insulting us , would write

5:49comments like : " Oh , lezzos , oh what a lezzo . " And we thought , damn , like I don't know how that's supposed to offend me , and I don't know why people even write that , because the sound , the pronunciation , is a bit offensive , so we decided to break the spell of that

6:06word by naming the book that , to show that that it just doesn't get to us , that the word is neutral for us . Yeah , we are lezzos , right ? There were worse comments . Uh , when we were running our YouTube channel very intensively , we’d be sitting at breakfast , and say we published a video

6:24at night , well , in the morning people are watching it while we're having breakfast , and there's some hater comment : " You're ugly , you have crooked ears , you're butch , you're this , you're that . " And you read it and think : " Well , could be better . " But most of the

6:38comments were just , I don't know , things like " you lezzo , " " look , lezzos , " " lezzos this and that , " and we'd sit there , say after half a year or a year , and look at the phone like , " Look how he went at us . " I see it , because the

6:52comments appear synchronously at the same time , and we would just laugh , so to speak , at it , that it just roasted us so bad that we wouldn't recover , such an insult . And we came to the conclusion that , well , it isn't ... I have this approach that what offends us is what we ourselves internalize as

7:09offensive . If you tell me I'm ugly and I don't think I am , then how is that supposed to offend me ? It doesn't offend me at all . It's the same with this word . For us , it isn't loaded in any way , so the fact that someone writes that to us , it doesn't do

7:24anything to us at all . I think the word " lesbo , " well , it might sound like that to others , but for us in our internal world , what we call the " industry , " which isn't really discussed publicly , it's more like a code word — I don't know how to put it . You know what I

7:42mean , that when you see , for example , a lesbian or an LGBT person , you say they're " in the industry . " I mean , there’s that thing — nobody really talks about it publicly , nobody really knows about it . So , often when we’re sitting in a café , say , with friends and someone says , " Look ,

7:56someone from the industry , " nobody will know what that means , but for us , the term " industry " just means they're one of us , in a way . So that’s actually quite interesting . And in our industry , they say , and I get it , not the commercial one , it’s said that ... we can call each

8:19other " lesbo " among ourselves , it’s like between Black people , one can say it to another , but generally , from the outside , it’s not appropriate , so and that’s exactly why I’m asking about it a bit . Exactly . It’s generally not appropriate . Because what else can you call lesbians ? It sounds nicer , right ? " Little

8:35lesbians , " maybe ? However you put it , two beautiful girls . Oh , great . Love . I don’t know , anything . I don’t know , you have to use that word , but generally , it’s not really offensive to us . Sure , sure . Great . I’m already learning new things here . I’m very

8:48glad . Alright , Karolina , please tell me how it was for you , regarding your first glimpses , how it was back then . Well , I was unaware for a very long time . Somewhere in there , the first ... well , for a terribly long time , there were these first crushes . I was always

9:03falling for my teachers , and that was completely incomprehensible to me . I thought it was just , I don’t know , something , I mean , it was platonic , yes , but I could never explain it to myself , so I kind of ignored the situation . But I had these fixations , for example , in middle school I was in

9:19love with my art teacher and I went to all the possible extra classes , but I still thought that , for sure , everything was okay , you know ? You’re not in love at all . And I repressed that for a very long time . Hmm . Well , and I realized there was something going on in high school , when I had

9:36this close friend , you know , with whom we spent a lot of time together and " just friends , " huh ? Yes . And I had a similar situation , because she really liked attention . So anyone who gave her attention , she kind of manipulated those people . Once she sensed that I was giving her my

9:52attention and I was willing to do a lot for her and was sacrificing myself , because I was in love and also suppressing it , she would use me and our friendship ended in one big argument . Basically a big drama , because it's a long story . But I suppressed it for a long time and only

10:08really realized it when I met Aga . That was my coming out to my family , and to myself as well . Yeah , and that’s how it happened . I was 24 years old at the time , which is quite late . I'm a bit curious , because obviously one important disclaimer in this whole conversation is that we are talking

10:28about your experiences here , right ? So this is neither a general truth nor a statistic . I’m saying this just for those people who might be thinking now : " Well , okay , I had a totally different experience or I know someone who did . " Sure , that’s cool . However , I’m a big advocate of the fact that your

10:47stories , since our lives are usually similar to some extent , might resonate with someone listening to us . So , you both had crushes when you were younger on girls who , as it turned out , weren't of your orientation . Mhm . But I

11:08understand that these were crushes more , so to speak , spiritual than physical , right ? I’m actually quite a reserved person . At least I used to be . And I found it hard to initiate that kind of contact , even , I don’t know , I wasn't one of those people who hugs strangers . We used to hug a lot , I mean

11:30, girlfriends often hug , acquaintances , friends even . I always hugged a lot at home , I mean with my mom , dad , sister , so hugging people outside wasn't really my thing . For younger viewers , I’m talking about pre-Covid times , back then people did those things . Yes , yes , they used to , you didn't have

11:53to sanitize your hands , and what was I going to say , that that you were reserved . That’s it . Yes , I was just reserved . Exactly . And there was a moment when thoughts were starting to reach me , because I had a friend who was , like , involved in that scene . And I was so curious . She said :

12:13" Really , wait , what , really ? You were into a girl ? Wow , that's something . No , damn , actually , that’s interesting . And I started analyzing it , and then I signed off somewhere , like , how it was , let's say in middle school — well , there are no middle schools now , but

12:29back then we used to go out into town , there were , say , ten of them , like a girl gang . And one thing led to another , having an illegal beer or two , and I asked them : " So , how about it , have you ever fooled around with each other ? "

12:44Yeah , Kasia and I fooled around at a party yesterday . Ha ha . Somewhere along the line , it turned out that out of those ten girls , all of them had — I'm not saying anything crazy , just , you know , middle school experiments — every single one had kissed at least one other girl , and I'm sitting there

12:59thinking : " How come ? " I mean , it was a strange situation . I never , never did anything , not even the slightest touch , and then I thought , damn , I actually think about the possibility , but I never did it , while they don't even think about it , and they were so hetero , right ?

13:17I mean , it doesn't really make much sense , for them it was just fun , but for you , it was a commitment , or at least it could have been . People have a lot of things buried in their subconscious , but we aren't aware of them . Of course . And maybe in my subconscious

13:32there was already something there , but I just never got to it . It only blocked me later . I think for you , it was something extraordinary . For them , it was something like hanging out with people . Well , I didn't really kiss guys that much either , and I wasn't running around or cuddling , so you know what I

13:49mean . So for me , that kind of contact generally meant I had to get to know someone first , so I didn't just kiss everyone . I , for example , kissed my girlfriends , but they were my friends at a party , like it was like it was normal , and someone would say : "

14:06Hey , let's kiss and see what it's like . " Because everyone was experimenting , and since they weren't people I had feelings for , it never raised any suspicions that maybe I was actually into girls . But let me interrupt you for a second on this topic , because it's super interesting . Uh , I mean , if

14:24anyone experienced it differently , that's totally cool , but I don't recall that happening back in high school or middle school , where boys would be like , " Hey , let's kiss " after a beer or just for fun . But it's true that girls did , right ? And usually , in most cases , heterosexual girls , which is a super

14:43interesting difference , isn't it ? And like yeah , you could see it with girls all the time , mainly , as you say , at a party or after a beer , girls just going , " Come on , let's have a kiss . " Boys somehow didn't do that , right ? But it's interesting , and from

14:58what I know , most women are bisexual in a sense , like , somewhere there I was watching Naukowy Bełkot . Dawid will be happy that I'm He did a great episode about fluidity , sexual orientation , and so on . Uh , and it's proven that women are more fluid ,

15:19so this need for security dominates for us , and so a bisexual person , in the current social situation , will probably choose a man because it's more certain for them in terms of social comfort . Yes , exactly . It's a bit sad in a way that women , you could say genetically , are like that ,

15:40that they choose that security . My mom once told me : " See ? And you don't have a boyfriend ? " I say : " No , I don't . " " Well , look , I'm lying on a sunbed , and you have to bring your own . " I'll bring my own sunbed , but I have other cool

15:56things instead , right ? Like , it's really not a problem for me to hammer a nail into the wall , bring my own sunbed , or move or assemble a sofa , because we can assemble it together and it's fun . Like , I don't need a person who will assemble the sofa for me and hammer nails into the wall while I say ,

16:13" Oh , great , can you do that again ? " Like , it's cool that there are many women like this and many women like that , and that the world is diverse , but I still think women could sometimes be more . You know , a sense of security has different dimensions for every woman . I

16:31also like a sense of security , but that doesn't mean I never , I never had a situation where there wasn't a division at all in my family among people for roles . I was able to saw and hammer nails with my dad , and cook dinner with my mom , so there was no such division . My parents

16:48had that division somewhere , although it was different , but not with us , with my siblings , because there were four of us , they never really divided us like that . You're a boy , so you play with , um , toy cars ? When I was a child , I played with toy cars and collected

17:04stones , and all my friends were surprised at what I was doing , because they were all playing with Barbie dolls . And for my parents , that was cool , and they bought me toys like that . I never felt that division of roles , which is nice . I am grateful to my parents for that . Uh , because I also

17:20learned many things that are useful to us now . Like , for example , assembling a couch or a bed . But on the other hand , I like a sense of security ; as a woman , it has various dimensions for me . For example , the fact that I am in a happy relationship , I am sure of the

17:34relationship , is a sense of security for me . Mhm . Okay . And tell me , in this , in this division of roles , there is also this , this issue that always comes up , um , and again , is it a myth , or what is your overall approach to the idea that in a homosexual relationship , one

17:51person has more of a " masculine " role , in quotes , and the other more of a " feminine " one . From your perspective , is that how it is ? Do you have such a division ? Is it fluid ? Do you consider it a myth ? I think that , in general , we are also

18:04learning a lot over time . It's kind of funny , actually . I don't know how you perceive it , Karolina , but I have the impression that it will be difficult to explain . But that this topic is actually quite , I don't know if new , but you could say it's quite new in the

18:25sense that there are no established patterns , and only now are these divisions starting to emerge , these categorizations . Categor ... no , I wasn't aware of this for many , many years . I found out about it from TikTok , because videos pop up on my TikTok like

18:45, there are five types of lesbians , is , meaning masculine , or femme , meaning , like , feminine . Then there are some others . I don't actually remember , but you're more familiar with it . But do these divisions resonate with you , then , that like for me , it doesn't mean resonate , but

19:03what do you mean , in a sense , it's terrible because it's true . I mean , like , no , because look , they often define us when they see us as a pair , they say that Aga is the masculine one and I am the feminine one . No , I don't relate to the division of

19:15roles . I’m referring to this categorization of people , that you can expand on your own thought , that society is only just starting to call things by their names . Mhm . But it might be hard for us to explain to you that we are on a higher level . I definitely will , but I’m trying ,

19:33I’ll do my best . Higher level of initiation . I mean the topic , you know what I mean . But as for your question regarding this division into women and – somewhere in the sense of – male and female roles , it seems to me that it’s not exactly like that , because for example there are lesbians

19:51where ... I don’t know , in our case , for instance , I can screw something into the wall , right ? You do that more often . I deal more with the car , for example , but Karolina is the one hammering nails , doing those kinds of things . Renovation stuff . I can't even really interfere .

20:11I just wanted to say that , in my opinion , it doesn’t matter if it’s a gay or heterosexual relationship , in life we should divide things to make our home life easier , or if we work together , our professional life too , on the principle : you’re better at this , so you handle it , and I’m better at

20:25this , so I’ll handle it . And that’s how it works for us . And you can’t put us into a category , I don’t know , people seeing us next to each other will say Aga is masculine , but if they saw her separately , they wouldn't say that , because she is feminine . She is a

20:37woman . Do people even like to divide ... When they see the two of us , they like to assign roles , right ? Because this one is like this , that one is like that . But it happens that I put on a skirt and high boots . And it’s a mindfuck , because they don't really know how to

20:53categorize it . So it depends . Life is easier when you divide things into various patterns . People really like to pigeonhole others . And that’s exactly what you see , it’s very accurate , because when I think about it and you said that people categorize you in some way . Fine , I’ll do it the way I see it now . Okay

21:10. For those listening , I will try to describe it . As I look at the girls now , Karolina is sitting on one side and Karolina is like this . You are a bit smaller . Oh yes , you are , you are more petite . And as you sit , you have your legs crossed .

21:25And you have a less , you have a less defined jawline . Mhm . Aga is sitting , she is bigger , she is taller , she is sitting with her legs uncrossed and has a stronger jawline . And now , the only reason I'm bringing this up is because it's an analysis based on what you can see in 0.03

21:42seconds , right ? Because these are the kinds of things you register , you could say . And obviously , based on this , uh , useless knowledge , well , you can't just say , " Yeah , lesbians , obviously . " " Aga is the masculine one , Karolina is the feminine factor in this relationship , "

21:59done , checked off , time for lunch . But it seems to me that reality is actually a bit more complex than just observing people you don't know , whose relationship you don't see , or even if you only see them online , well , let's face it , that's not the whole truth . Yeah , true .

22:13Uh , that's why I'm asking , right , because I totally get that someone might say that about you guys , but on the other hand , I'm asking if you feel that yourselves , between you ? Oh , uh no , it depends on the , on the area of our life , but yeah , I don't think I've ever

22:27analyzed whether like , I'm not looking for some masculine role in Aga either . Because if I wanted to be with a man , I would be with a man , like Aga is a woman and I want to , like , see her as a woman . And like I say , in no women That sounds

22:46like the newest Edyta Górniak song . I meant , what I meant was , that like that looking for a masculine role in a lesbian relationship is pointless . Because they're lesbians , they're two women , and , like , the masculine factor is unnecessary there ; generally , that's not what it's about . There are many , I

23:09also wanted to say , heterosexual couples where those roles are reversed from Yeah , totally , I remember I don't know , I had a friend somewhere who said , " Well , I'm going to the workshop because it's my favorite thing to do after work , I'm going to screw something together , tinker , soldering iron , and I don't

23:22even look at him , he'll be with the kids because he's playing with them and that , " well , that's well , my brother's example , my brother takes care of the kids more often when they're sick , he takes the time off , he cooks , makes apple pie , bakes cakes , and my sister-in-law , in turn , is , like

23:36, working during that time , and , well , they get along , because he likes baking cakes , so it gives him pleasure , it's cool . And yeah , and another thing is one more issue , that well , it also , like , let's say , our behavior is also determined by , for example , how a person is , I don't know ,

23:55dressed , what the given situation is , and so on . I feel comfortable here , I dressed the way I like , so I'm sitting the way I like in this , in this outfit . But for example , Karolina says , " God , you're wearing a dress again , let's say , and you're going to be curling your

24:10hair again . " " No , and for example , I have this thing where , if I just wear something that isn't unisex , but rather something more feminine , I'm sitting like this and I'd be sitting like this and I'd , you know , it’s just a matter of mood , it might sound funny , but

24:28women are also very much driven by hormones . Just look at PMS . Am I saying it right ? Or PM ? Because I often say it the other way around . The other way around . Yeah , and our moods control us . For us , it's a total drama . We have a double dose in the apartment .

24:44Having two women and periods is just it's a drama . Don't they synchronize for you ? No , actually , they don't , surprisingly . Interesting . I thought they always did . Okay , this is going to be that poor man's perspective again . Someone heard something once , and I heard that it’s just — but I actually heard it more

24:59about friends , right ? Best friends . Exactly . Maybe it works a bit differently in a couple ? Whenever I went to sports camps and we were in a room with my friends , they always synchronized , but ours haven't synchronized for over five years , so I don't know , maybe we aren't a match ,

25:15right ? Yeah , my psychic said that too , but somehow , as you can see , she missed . Well , we have longer cycles , if we're already talking about this . I mean , I have a longer one , you have a shorter one , so they only overlap once a year , or maybe twice . And that's when the

25:32planets align and that's when we have a combo . We have PMS . Yes , at the same at the same time and , well , when one has it , the other buffers , right ? But do you have such strong mood swings ? We both have strong personalities , and the beginning of our relationship was

25:49generally some kind of Armageddon . Now we know each other well enough that it’s cool , but we both have strong characters . When PMS kicks in on top of that , one of us just avoids the other and gets out of the way . Then the roles reverse , right ? Is — I mean , is your relationship the

26:09first homosexual relationship for both of you ? For me , yes . For Aga , no . For you , no . Okay . Maybe I'll start with Agnieszka . Could you please recall your first relationship , whether — what

26:29feelings drove you when you knew you were going to be in a homosexual relationship for the first time ? I mean , was it pleasant , was it scary , or was it a mix of everything ? Because we are probably talking about Poland a few years ago , so I think it wasn't that obvious . I would also add that a

26:47person's first relationship is always a storm of emotions , hormones , and everything happening at once , right ? So I'm curious what it was like when you add the fact that that it wasn't a heterosexual relationship . No , I was terribly in love , I'd say even intensely , pathologically so . Uh , and I never analyzed it in those terms ,

27:06like : " Oh my God , I'm in a homosexual relationship . " Somehow no , I didn't have thoughts like why label things and make life difficult , because we often impose some weird pressure on ourselves , and there's no point in pigeonholing or naming certain things . Well , I fell in love , so I guess that's good . Yes .

27:28And you didn't think about the surroundings , you didn't think , you know , that okay , now we're going to walk hand in hand , for example , or not ? No , I'm a bit of a rebel and I never thought about it from that angle . Once I had this thought , like damn , actually

27:41, what if some aunt sees me and tells my mom , that makes no sense , it's better if she finds out from me , if such a situation ever happens , right ? And , but I usually did it like , if I was expecting it or an aunt came out from around the corner , I would let go

27:55of her hand , because those were the times , the beginnings . It's worth adding that Aga is from Świdnik , so they have a city well , which is second on the list of intolerant cities . We never said where we were from , but since it's out now , let it be . So it's a secret that you're from

28:10Świdnik . It is a secret that you are from Świdnik . Well , it's not a secret anymore . It says but really , you never , never said where you're from ? Oh , that's interesting . And why ? Is it not even in the book ? I don't know , I like the city , but also somehow

28:26oh , when you said I like this city , I didn't believe you for a second , I really do like it a lot . I mean , I often return to it in my thoughts . It hurts me more what is happening there . I mean , that the city is so right-wing and , well , how it's the second city in

28:40Poland in terms of hating LGBT people , but how exactly is that studied ? I mean , where did that come from ? I don't know if you recall the whole thing with those anti-LGBT signs . Generally , those signs concerned the fact that these cities wanted to introduce those resolutions . How the ranking looked and how it was chosen , I

29:00don't know , but I know that Kraśnik was in first place and I think Świdnik was second , so these towns are not far from each other . I don't know on what basis the points were awarded , but , you know , some kind of list was created . And Świdnik was in second place . Yes , yes .

29:15Okay , but I understand you haven't lived there for a long time . Meaning you moved out 13 , 14 years ago . Okay . That's a while , but do you visit ? Yes , systematically , I mean , every once in a while . We are there often , and contrary to appearances , the atmosphere there is

29:29really nice , the people living there are great , there are a lot of LGBT people there , which is for me some kind of , um , strange coincidence . Maybe that's why they did it , you know , because there are actually LGBT clubs there , where , you know , the city is alive .

29:44Okay , that's interesting . By clubs , do you mean — I'll speak like an old person — discos ? Discos , that is , in my language , I still say disco even now . Discos , clubs . Where are you from ? Me ? Yes . Well , I happen to be from Warsaw . Well , that's exactly why .

30:00Clubs , discos , house parties . But , but , but is " disco " a bad word ? There are no discos anymore . What do you mean ? What are they then ? They are clubs . But if there's a room where people dance , that's a disco . I think everyone , or at least most people , would say

30:18it's a club , that even in Świdnik there used to be discos — I'm from a very small town too — back then they would have been called discos , but now everything is called a club , right ? No , well , yes , yes . I mean , when I go out , I also go to a club , but when I

30:30was there , if people asked what I was doing , I was at a disco , meaning I was dancing ; you see , you can go to a club and just stand with a drink , right ? That's , you know , but that's not important . Um , we were talking about uh , since we were just talking about

30:43the first , the first relationship , I'll let myself jump to Karolina . How , how , how did you look at it , because since Aga had her first relationship earlier , she was a bit younger , and you were a bit older when it was really the first time , yes , so what , well , what were

30:58your emotions like then ? I always laugh that we have more luck than sense , and that’s how I describe us a bit , because we don't think much about what others think of us . We don't think much about what others think of us . We don't dwell on it . I mean , if we are

31:15guided by — I mean , I follow my heart very often in life , not always my head — so when I met Aga , I didn't think about what I was doing with my life or how people would perceive it . And that's my most memorable moment . I have a great mom with whom I've always been

31:31able to talk about everything . She is very tolerant . I broke up with my boyfriend at the time . And she keeps asking , because I had a gay friend I often went to LGBT clubs with , and she says : " Maybe your friend is into guys , and you're into girls ? " " I turn to him

31:49and say : ' Maybe so ' . " And her expression just ... It was , I thought it was a joke , that it didn't bother her at all because she's tolerant . Her expression , she just went completely pale , you know ? And she started asking me questions . So I told her I'd been

32:02seeing a girl for a while , I told her all about it , totally head over heels , like it was nothing special , uh , a relationship like any other . And that's when it finally hit me that it actually is a problem , that people don't just see it as something that doesn't matter . Even though my parents are from

32:17Warsaw , and I grew up my whole life in Warsaw surrounded by such people , well , the fact that their daughter is LGBT isn't so great after all . And I think we have a lot in common , because when my mom asked , I brought my first girlfriend home and my mom walked into the room , and we suddenly pulled away

32:34from each other so it looked like nothing was happening . My mom , of course , knew right away , because you just have to look at me . I mean , she's my mom , so you can tell straight away from my eyes that something's up , that I'm in love . So she asks me after that

32:46meeting , after my girlfriend left : " Is there something between you and that girl ? " If you hear this in the final cut , it means the neighbor is drilling . If the neighbor is drilling , don't worry about it . Thanks . And , uh , I told her : " Yeah , well , is

33:03there something more between you ? " And I say : " What do you mean , what are you asking about ? " " Well , you know , those things , let's say . " Right . And my mom , like , cigarette already here , I say : " Uh-oh , why did I say that ? " I think to

33:21myself , I mean , I don't see the point in lying to my mom , because because you didn't feel like you were doing anything wrong , simply put . I mean , somewhere in the back of my mind , maybe subconsciously , I knew it wouldn't be the best , it might not be the best idea ,

33:34but no , it's not the best idea , what ? Telling mom or touching each other ? Well , you don't get kids from it , so you know , so telling , telling mom . Telling mom . Okay , all right . Well , fine . Touching is a human thing after all . Especially since at that age , people ,

33:49well , are looking for different things . Well , my mom wasn't happy at first , especially in my beloved Świdnik , in those times when a priest would pull out a holy water sprinkler from under the table when they saw such people , when you were taken to be " unspelled " or cured of being LGBT ,

34:07those were basically exorcisms . So my mom said we were going to see a sexologist , and those were times when it didn't count , because now , if you go to a sexologist , there are usually group meetings with the family to help the family adapt to the fact that a person is LGBT . Yeah . Yeah . But back then it

34:24wasn't like that . Back then , it was more of an exorcism performed on that person , you know ? That we are laughing . That was your experience , right ? Luckily , my parents were just too lazy and didn't feel like driving me all the way to Lublin . My mom read or okay , already , already . But my mom read a few

34:44books — a smart woman — talked to an even smarter grandma , and came to the conclusion that if I'm happy , then it's okay . Of course , there were still some catty remarks for about half a year and so on , but let's say it was reasonably bearable . And regarding my girlfriend , you asked if I was ashamed to walk

35:04hand-in-hand with her . If she's watching this , I'm sorry , but I was ashamed of her , and not ... If she's watching this ? No , no , no , no . Now that I've figured it out , I can finally say this honestly , because she was a fairly controversial person . She looked quite strange ; today

35:25, maybe people sometimes look normal like that . Okay . And it makes no impression , because there's intense makeup . Right now , the young generation does really experimental makeup , really out there , they have various hairstyles and so on . Back then , everyone mostly wore grey

35:47and used a light foundation , while she would do red lips , um , mega pink cheeks , some crazy makeup for three days , a baseball cap , and she could wear , for example , a fur coat , um , something like that . She was just totally out there , right ? Like , totally out there , yes ?

36:03But did I like it or not ? Although you were ashamed of her , so I'm trying to understand . Well , it intrigued me . I mean , I like original people , so theoretically I looked at it like , well , cool . She could just sometimes take better care of her hair , in that sense , not like ,

36:20you know , but like ... like it's okay , but in Świdnik ... Mhm . A girl like that in Świdnik , such a sight ... people would turn their heads . So the point is she stood out too much when you went out into town , that she was too visible . Yes , that it was in that

36:37sense , okay , good . So she , she stood out , she was such a colorful bird . Yeah , maybe not colorful , because she wasn't really colorful , she wore black , but she was very extravagant . And people would just turn around to look at her . Sure . Every second person would turn to look

36:51at her . Add a hand to that too . It wasn't even about that , I just didn't feel ... I don't know , I remember the discomfort more for that reason . In this story , because I met that girl , and I think you guys are still somewhat in touch , right ? Well , maybe less so

37:08now , but our paths crossed somewhere once . Very cool . Actually , the thing that amuses me most in this story is how you broke up , because the mentality of that person , I mean , she was such a rock girl to me at the time , and I remember you telling me the story that

37:23Aga is at some house party , and her girlfriend walks in , she’s in love with her , and suddenly her girlfriend shows up with some young girl under her arm , you know , she’s in that fur coat , vodka in hand , and the general sight of that chick in that rock vibe , it stuck in my memory so much that it was ,

37:38I remember that image today too . I didn't know at the time that I didn't have a girlfriend anymore . Eh , life is brutal . Well , it kind of crushed me , actually . Eh , I cried into my pillow for eight months after that relationship . You were once three . Okay . Well , it was , it was hard to shake off

38:00my first love , which ended quickly . Actually , it ended faster than it started . Eh , and in such an unpredictable way , really . I remember she came up to me after the party and asked : " Hey , could you drive my girlfriend home , since she doesn't have a license ? " And I was like : " You're

38:14joking , right ? " And that's how my relationship ended . Exactly . Gently . Yes , such is life . Listen , we're in relationships , we're in love , and now a zone that for me as a heterosexual man is totally inaccessible . Namely , sex . Sex . You

38:35both have been with men in bed , so , if I may ask . Depends on what you're asking about . Okay . About sex . Sex can be called , you know , in many ways . However you define it , whether you count it as sex . Well , I , yeah , I dated men before . Yes .

38:58I was also in a relationship for seven months when I was 26 and already living together . But not really fully consummated , so no . I understand . All right . Sorry , but why not ? Well said , beautifully put . I think if we were in Świdnik right now , everyone would know what that means . That's , like , fine .

39:16All right . I don't want to be insensitive either . Yes , but sex , intimate contacts with men , understood in various ways , right ? I mean , in a sexual sense , right ? there was something there . Mhm . did you , just going back to the very beginning of the conversation , were you with men because

39:38, well , you were in relationships with them and it was kind of expected , or they insisted , and one thing just led to another , and that's why you ended up in bed , more or less , or ... were you trying to convince yourselves , for example , that men are attractive ? Because I understand that , for you , men

39:57are just not sexually attractive . End of story . Not exactly . Okay . I don't have that at all , I mean , I don't feel sexual attraction to people I practically don't know . I'm not capable , I wouldn't be able to , and I've never had a situation where I'd go to bed with a stranger . I have to get

40:13to know someone . I think that's called demisexuality . Meaning , I fall in love with people and I fall in love with their personalities . Only then do these people become attractive to me . So I can't determine if I like someone . I mean , I can determine that someone has a nice chest , you know , a muscular body

40:29or a beautiful bust . Thank you , but I can't say whether that person is attractive to me , for example . Okay . Well , except for Angelina Jolie , because she's always been attractive to me , but , well , entering into relationships , I just did it on the basis of getting to know someone , and it just sort of

40:45turned into a relationship , but as I tried , after my coming out , when I met Aga and realized that I am , after all , probably more of a lesbian or pansexual , it's hard for me to define . I've never wanted to define it either , because I don't really have that need . I fall in love with people .

41:02I realized that , in reality , the biggest butterflies in my stomach that I felt and the so-called excitement , I felt for women ; that , in total , I was in relationships with men , and like in any relationship , we had sex , but there wasn't , inside me , like , a desire for ,

41:17I don't know , a given man . That's how it seems to me from the perspective of time . So , if I understand this correctly , you were just in bed with them . Well , you were in bed with them , but it was like ... Oh , I mean , I was in bed with them , well ,

41:33because I like sex . I mean , everyone , it seems to me that most of us like sex and have needs , so since I was in a relationship , we had sex and we satisfied our needs , but for it to be , from my side , that there was mega chemistry and , you know , fireworks ,

41:47well , that's rather not . I think that your , that your sex life was probably good , it just didn't have that , like , maybe strong passion in it . What do you mean ? Like , in the sense of , like , but you know , from the side of my exes , in my opinion , there was that passion

42:02from my side , um , I mean passion in the sense of within me , because like like there was passion in bed , but it’s also about what you feel and , for example , when I felt that while being in a relationship with a woman , I realized that , like , it could be better

42:15, right , that like I feel this " wow . " And is that magic ingredient love or is it sexuality ? Probably more so sexuality , because there was love in my previous relationships . Okay . Like , I loved my ex-boyfriends . Um , we broke up for various reasons somewhere along the way . And then once

42:34I met Aga , well , it was like Aga beats all the guys . I understand . All right , um , but it really is more about that sexuality in bed . I think that’s what it was about , but I also can't name it because , you know , it’s so fluid . I think you meet someone and

42:50someone might be totally not your type , but they have something about them that draws you in like a magnet and there's mega chemistry between you . I’m probing what you’re saying or trying to understand between the lines , because you had , I mean speaking about Karolina , you had guys , you were with them and that was for you , in quotation

43:05marks again , some part of a normal relationship . Mhm . For Aga , not necessarily . Yes , I mean , that’s how I understand it , that it was more of a foreign object . A bit do I understand that correctly between the lines it's hard to define . I mean , I don't know , I guess I don't analyze some

43:22things that deeply . I was in three relationships , um , with guys . Um what am I supposed to say here ? Are you counting the middle school ones ? I'll say why I'm asking this , right ? So that , so that , because I know this is a delicate topic . I’m asking because I’m trying to understand , um , a very

43:43big difference when it comes to the sex itself , to that sexual passion , you know , in bed . Was there anything there for you in that sex back then ? Well , Karolina said that there was something there and just , like , was there something there for you , or was it always , " No , it was just

44:01, it was some intimacy , but not ... " I mean , I'll say this , it's all actually my mom's fault . Just kidding . But a little bit , I mean , no , no . Well , she saw you touching each other , right ? Well yes , but my mom really educated us , meaning me and my sister ,

44:16which I think is very good , because back then , well I'm old , there was no internet and things like that . I mostly learned everything from people who simply passed that knowledge on to me , so she educated us very well . And she always told us that , you know how it is with sex and so on with guys , it's if

44:35you decide to have sex , then of course there's no problem . Well , like in the future , you know ? let's say I talked to her , let's say , I don't know , after elementary school , on that principle . Early . I don't remember , maybe it was middle school , I don't re , well you know , back

44:49then , but these weren't really talks about sex in general , but you know , it's better to know , than in middle school I had like six girls who were pregnant , so I guess this is a better solution , and they played with condoms during school breaks . So you know , those were the times ,

45:04right ? Yes , so those were the times . Those were the times , but I think it's like that now too . Exactly . So my mom educated me and she once told me this . Oh , exactly . Go ahead . Listen . By the way , hello to your mom . Your mom is an important , an important part , a

45:21woman . But generally she told me , you know how it is , like you shouldn't just be intimate with guys . It's not that she was forbidding me or dragging me away from it and so on , that absolutely . Uh , but to respect yourself to some degree , I don't remember what she told me , it was beautiful . I'm just

45:41passing it on after 40 , or I exaggerated , after 20 or 25 years . I say to her , and she says , that to just respect yourself , and that it's best if I choose that guy , once I know I'll be with him , it's worth waiting . That it's not like until the wedding itself , but

45:58once you're sure , then to ... well , that was the mindset . Hardly anyone thinks like that anymore , but that was the mindset that it is worth waiting until the wedding for sex . When I was meeting my , let's say , potential candidates and something was going on , I always had in the back of

46:13my mind , wait until the wedding , right ? Well , what , right away like that ? Well , I mean I But you didn't wait until the wedding with women . Well , but mom didn't talk about women , right ? That is very interesting . Really , and that's partly where it came from .

46:27Let me step out of the studio for a moment , kill my neighbor and be right back , forgive me , I have no idea . That my mom , well , somewhere between the lines , I just took it to heart . When I was dating guys , I knew there was no way I’d just give myself to

46:42someone after a month or even two . Especially since I was young , I think that’s completely okay . Yeah . And also , the more a guy insisted on that kind of contact , the more turned off I became . If he’d left the initiative to me , maybe it would’ve been

47:02different , but when someone pressured me , I felt that wasn't quite how it should be . Especially since I always played it with a clean slate , you know , straight talk . I’d meet a guy and say : " Look , man , it's cool and all . " " But I don’t intend to have sex for now . "

47:18And you always said that at the beginning ? Yes , I did . It’s not like I was stringing anyone along , no . I was just informing them , and it wasn't because I didn't like the guy — they were always handsome , looked good , and were intelligent — it was just because I wanted to wait out that phase , you know

47:36, this was high school , middle school and so on , so I asked them to hold their horses , so to speak . And they were usually older , so for that reason too , I just didn't want to do it , I didn't want any kind of initiation . And well , usually it didn’t work out ,

47:57because either someone couldn’t quite wait , you know , and they found some other girl who offered it , or I just realized later that I wanted something different out of life , and that was that . Don't you think that’s just your way of justifying that you simply didn't want to have sex with men ? No , but

48:19didn’t it bother you in your relationships with women that you could know someone for two days and sleep with a girl ? And who said that was the case ? But I know it was . Well , I don't know . From your own stories . And when you were with a guy , it was like you were blocked . No , when I was

48:34dating guys , like I said , I had to get to know them better , so I couldn't just jump into bed right away . But we were getting to know each other , and it would eventually happen . Eh , you were just kind of pushing that topic away , though . Well , you know ,

48:49it’s like this : I had boyfriends , I mean , I was dating them from , let's say , 17 or 16 , and then when I fell in love with a girl for the first time , honestly , if I had a daughter , I wouldn’t want her to be sexually active at such a young age ; I’d

49:02prefer for her to wait . So if I had a boyfriend , and then let's say at 18 , I think that for me , everyone has their own age when they want to have their first time . For me , it wasn’t okay . I didn’t want to have sex at that age . No , I was

49:16talking about later relationships . And then , well , I switched and got a taste of life . I knew that girls were a great topic and I didn’t need , you know , like ... And , well , I couldn’t get pregnant , you understand ? I want that exact topic . In that case , let’s leave guys behind . Let’s

49:35leave sex with men alone for a moment , or for a longer while . You got a taste for women and felt that this was it and . And damn it , I know , hell , it can't be transposed to a heterosexual guy , but if you had to explain it to me like a six-year-old , what was the difference

49:54for you and why did you , you know , realize : " Ah , okay , this is it , this is what I always wanted in life . " I think you know perfectly well . Well , well , well yes . Well , you know , what am I supposed to tell you ? The body

50:15structure is different . It’s actually a difficult question . I think any sex would be okay . Because I don't know , you're that unfussy . Sex any kind . No , that’s not what I mean . I am actually very picky . Besides that , for example , you know , it’s not like that , I have to like someone for it to work

50:36at all ; if I don't like someone , well , I'm such a strange person that with a person who doesn't turn me on in some way , I'm just out of bed , so it's totally ... something strange , probably normal , in the sense that like I don't know , there are people who just go to bed like that

50:51uh-huh I mean , because I think I understand you a little bit in the sense that , well , any sex is , right , some rubbing and stimulating of organs . Yes , so organs , body parts . Organs . Organs . Two livers rubbing against each other ? No , organs , so you can somehow

51:08always extract that purely physical pleasure . But that’s not the only thing that matters . So , so probably , I guess I mean , I'll say this : when I was with my last boyfriend , whom I later lived with , there were some intimacies , so to speak , and everything was okay , good . I

51:27was in some way fulfilled in my own way . Okay . But , um , there is a big difference between sex with a man and sex with a woman . And if I had to choose , if someone offered it to me , I'd prefer , like when I had a hot guy and a hot girl , I just preferred the

51:45hot girl as of today . But if it were , I mean , if it were the case that , for example , purely hypothetically , abstractly , then I could probably go to bed with a guy on that basis today , even though , in fact , I haven't been in bed with men . Yeah .

52:03And now , um , and now in the DMs we'll have a lot of messages . Now in the DMs there will be a lot of guys who will want to convert you back to heterosexuality . I'll want to come back to this topic , to this conversion , but how is it with you , Karolina , or

52:15how was it for you ? Since Aga was your first girlfriend , after all those guys , did you have some kind of click , or how was it ? For me , I actually think a bit differently , that for me there isn't a big difference between sex with a man and sex with a woman , in the sense that

52:34it's a matter of how those two people get along in bed . Mhm . And the truth is that women , at least it was like that for us , connect a bit differently emotionally . I mean , it's easier for me to communicate with a woman , there are no taboo topics , you talk about everything , and thanks to that

52:55good communication , everything is also super in bed . Because I believe that in bed you need to communicate about what you like and what you don't like . But when it comes to whether it would be a good lover in the form of a man or a good lover in the form of a woman , it

53:11makes no difference to me . Although , as I say , I think that in my case I feel stronger emotions toward the fair sex , that is , women . I mean , it's more like , for me , this energy , you know , I can't define it , but some kind of power .

53:31But is that energy in you or in your partner ? I mean , it's probably in my head , in my feelings , in my imagination . So Well , actually , you said that very wisely regarding those emotions , because I don't think I was ever able to build a relationship with guys where I could fully get close to someone ,

53:50because physically I could — that's not a problem , really . But you know , if you don't really feel that sense of security , or totally pure intentions , and you don't 100 % see a future , and ... It's not that I could just be in a relationship with a woman , but you see someone's flaws and you wonder whether

54:12to take that first step . Because I have this silly way of thinking , I have this strange mindset where crossing that " first time " threshold is something important , like . You know what I mean ? Yeah , I think so too . I mean , it always was for me as well . So for me to do it , I had to be 100 %

54:30sure that I wanted to . And I kept ending up in situations where I wasn't sure I wanted to do it . And if I wasn't 100 % sure , well , the chemistry was there , but there wasn't that sense of a whole , you know , what would tie everything together . But with a woman ,

54:47I am able to develop that faster . Yeah . I mean , with women , it's easier for me to communicate , I feel more of an emotional connection than with a guy . That's the I mean , what you're saying is actually true , because I was in two serious relationships where we had sex , but I

55:05also had relationships with men who ... and in those two relationships , I decided on the moment it would happen , so I was the one who allowed that boundary to be crossed , and they really respected it , and maybe if you'd met a guy like that , you might see it differently , you'd understand my

55:19perspective more . But I also had relationships with guys who pressured me a lot . I would create so much tension then . Thank you . I was , you know what I mean . If someone can't handle it , that's also , but it's also about the other person ; you might be seeing someone for six months , for

55:36example , and they might not want to be in a relationship where they have to wait , because they don't know how long they'll be waiting . So I also respect the other side , that it's a matter of choices , yeah , they have different needs . It’s not that it couldn't have happened , but it's just that the

55:52situation never arose where I opened up to someone enough , where I felt , " God , yes , this person is so great , " and I felt such a flow with them that I would do it , and that's why it didn't happen , simply put . Hm . And it's funny , because I've actually never

56:08talked about this with anyone before . This is very interesting , because when I look at it , it’s really a conversation about showing things , setting boundaries , and showing what you're willing to do , right ? Regardless of whether it's a guy or a woman , right ? I know you guys come first , but for a

56:26second , since I'm the only guy here , I have to ask about this . Looking back , how do you remember your guys ? I mean , not specifically that Paul was like this or Peter was like that , but just how you remember being with guys for a while . Is it a memory that just

56:44happened , passed , ended , closed , or do you remember it well , did it teach you something , I don't know , I'm trying to understand it from a Well , it taught me a huge amount in the sense that my first boyfriend , whom I was in love with , was a terrible toxic psycho . And that's always a good memory

57:03, right ? And I was a bit of a spoiled girl because my siblings are older , they always pampered me , so I looked at the world through rose-colored glasses , and then I started dating a dealer who was from this strange crowd . That

57:24relationship of ours lasted a while , almost four years , so it dragged on a bit . But mentally , in general , this relationship was very exhausting for me . And after that relationship , when I finally recovered , I became a completely different person , meaning very strong , knowing what I want , setting boundaries , and to me , it was a

57:43good life lesson . And my next long relationship was based more on friendship and also actually gave me a lot in life . I mean , I wouldn't want to judge people , because I know they might be watching us and and I wouldn't want to offend anyone by talking about my previous relationships , but my next relationship was very

58:04friendly . That relationship was like a clean , clean slate . I entered that relationship knowing what I didn't want from the previous one and building something on equal footing . I think that when you are in a relationship and , let's say , you're thinking about breaking up , you see only super negative things , right ? This

58:25person is just like this , like that , something doesn't suit you , like . When a relationship ends , if someone leaves you or cheats , or you dump someone , you think to yourself : yes , good decision . And usually at the beginning , you think that someone is hopeless . Then you have that stage , for instance after a

58:38breakup , where you only see superlatives , like oh God , why did I leave them , it was perfect , and so on , and so on , and so on . There is this pattern , often when I talk to friends , that they want to go back or , I don't know , have these weird ideas . But if

58:52someone made a decision , for example , it must have come from somewhere , right ? Yes , as you know , but after years it’s usually the case — at least for me — that you see everything a bit through a fog , that there were some negatives , you see someone had flaws , but then again , who doesn't have flaws ?

59:09And the good memories remain . Even if they are bad , I look at them more like , they were bad , but actually they're funny , because it doesn't hurt me today , so I can talk about it with a sense of humor . And I think they were cool

59:30guys and I have a lot of really good memories . So , in general , I think of it as cool experiences . I mean , I'm generally a person who likes to collect emotions , likes to collect memories , so I'm glad I have so many of them , and I wouldn't erase any of those memories .

59:50So I'm glad and I think , okay , everyone teaches us something in life and it's nice to draw some conclusions from that . Let's move away for a moment from your relationship and your former relationships , for sure . I wanted to ask you how the outside world looks at you . Because the internet is obviously

1:00:08a bit of a separate universe , right , where people tend to be less kind , that can be noticed sometimes . And you mentioned yourselves that you've happened to read things about yourselves and probably still do , but does it vary in any way , in the sense that the fact that you are LGBT makes a

1:00:33bigger difference to men , for example , than to women ? Or is it simply that if someone is intolerant , they are intolerant regardless of gender ? From your perspective , again , this isn't some dry statistic , but how do you feel it ? I think that , well , both women and men , I guess ,

1:00:51but mostly men , there are definitely more men than women . And they often write comments that we are a waste , that there will be no children from this , things like that . I just wonder why . I mean , even if we were with a man , we still wouldn't be with that person anyway . I mean , it's

1:01:08just some anonymous person on the internet , so why does it hurt them that Aga and I are living our lives the way we want ? But honestly , it’s more often men , and sometimes those comments are pretty intense . Either they're comments like , " I'd love to join a threesome , " you know ? Or

1:01:25they're comments where they already know we’ve been together for a long time and it still bothers them , so they start attacking us . And it's the same in real life ; our experience is that whenever we’ve had unpleasant situations , they were with men . I’ve never had a woman come up to me and say , " I hate lesbians . "

1:01:44It has happened on TikTok . On TikTok , yes . Yes , but I’m talking about real life , like , it hasn’t really happened that a woman walked up and said she doesn't like lesbians , right ? But guys , for example , at parties , would do all sorts of things and try to cause drama between us , then

1:01:59start insulting us — like , a total mindfuck , you know ? If I didn't reciprocate , or if Aga didn't reciprocate their advances , we’d get backlash for it , and I could never understand why that happens . In that case , are women generally nicer , or do

1:02:19you get those positive comments more often from women ? In a positive sense , you know , because that's positive too . You are who you are , you know what I mean . I mean , there's no reason to judge you , but on the other hand , it's not like I come here and say , " Jesus , it's so great

1:02:34that you're lesbians . " Like , you're just yourselves , it's cool , right ? It’s all fine . But I’m wondering , because sometimes it happens that someone really wants to uh show that they’re happy you can just be who you are , right ? Especially on the internet , you see someone writing , " Oh my God , that's so great , "

1:02:52right ? So I’m wondering if you encounter comments like that , and maybe they come from women more often . And here , it’s probably also fifty-fifty . In this particular situation . Wait , I just remembered , regarding women , women pray for us more often . Like doing Hail Marys for us , but to convert us ,

1:03:10right ? Oh , wow , I don't know . So maybe they aren't insulting comments , but more like trying to influence us . Girls , please rethink your lives . I will pray for you . Amen . And , like , that is also Oh , what’s the difference , besides the probably more aggressive language ,

1:03:27when you have contact with someone online versus in real life ? Well , I’ve already heard that at discos — to use the language of old people — and in clubs — using the language of younger folks — it varies , and men can be pushy . Which is something 99 % of heterosexual girls would probably say too , right ?

1:03:45That , like , clubs are a wild reality , right ? It’s a jungle , chaos , and just guys everywhere . Well , yeah . Yeah , that's probably how it is . Um , but what is it like in real life from your perspective ? Like you mentioned here that some women say they pray for

1:04:02you — are those contacts with people who follow you online different in person ? Do they try to beat around the bush with what they say ? You are lesbians , but how is it from your perspective , how do you see it ? Do you want to start , or will this be a huge topic ? Fine .

1:04:20Actually , in real life , very few people talk to us about these topics . Like , there's almost never any confrontation . Rarely ever . Well , like I said , maybe at parties after having a drink someone works up the courage to say something nice or something nasty . Okay . In real life , if someone

1:04:37approaches us , it’s usually fans , and they’re generally positive things . But among our circle of friends , acquaintances , and so on , very few people have dared to confront the situation . We’ve lost some friends here and there ; for example , I lost friends after coming out , but they never confronted me about why .

1:04:59They just stopped calling , stopped inviting me to parties , stopped wanting to meet up with me . And it’s so strange ; we never really explained to each other what caused that situation . It’s also not very helpful . Were those men ? Uh , actually no . Because I could understand guys who drifted away . Like , " Aha . " " I don't have

1:05:18a chance now . " Like , yeah . No , guys were the exact opposite . The exact opposite . Even whenever we were at some parties , they would have this weird phase and start asking these strange questions . Like , " Just in case , I'm right here . " " Remember , Jesus . " "

1:05:33Just in case , [ __ ] , just in case you wake up straight tomorrow , " " and decide , ' Actually , ' " " ' something is missing in my life . ' " They’re so funny sometimes , you know , " just in case . " " Like if you woke up tomorrow with a

1:05:47huge craving for , you know , a man , " " you're afraid today , right ? " Well , but female friends , not so much . I mean , honestly , I still don't fully know what the reason was . It’s like a lot happened in the meantime , or rather I broke up with my ex , and he was also

1:06:05in that group of friends . so they just had to choose , like , if that was the decision they made or not . That’s also interesting , isn’t it ? Like , what to choose . It’s interesting because my ex and I never really had any conflict . We even went to parties together with him and

1:06:22so on , but somehow the context worsened , and I don't really know the reason why . But , in my personal feeling , I feel like I lost some friends after coming out . Some of those friends , for example , had views like " screw the Confederation , screw Great Britain . " Well , that ...

1:06:39um so , it’s like the facts just add up . That , yes . um , what do you think , um I suspect there isn't just one thing that people don't know about LGBT people , but they should understand it so that life would be easier for everyone . Just like when I asked you about the word "

1:06:58lesbo " at the beginning , I didn't know , but now I know that " lesbo " is reserved more for LGBT people to use among themselves . We know it might not be offensive , but maybe it's better to just let it be , right ? Like a simple piece of advice , right ? And because there are certainly

1:07:13more things like that that would be good for straight people to know . I’ll say something silly , but I wanted to say that , well , we also eat breakfast and poop , like we don't stand out at all . We are just people . Like , sexual orientation doesn't change anything in our lives , generally . Yes ,

1:07:29because people add some strange things and make up odd stories about it , but in reality , our lives are absolutely no different from the average person's . Except that we are just together and sleep in the same bed , and that's it , really , just like any other couple . Exactly . Yes . Yes . I agree with that , and God

1:07:47forbid I want this to sound like I’m looking at you as if you are " different . " No , no , no . It’s more about pure statistics . There are simply fewer LGBT people , so naturally , we’ve all had fewer chances to meet and have LGBT people in our close circle of friends , to get to know each other well enough

1:08:03that I’d know , for instance , that if a heterosexual couple behaves this way or that , we don’t say this or that , it just kind of gets smoothed out , right ? And in the case of LGBT people , there are simply fewer of those situations , and that’s what I’m asking about , right ? I’m wondering , I

1:08:18don't know , for example , do you often get what you consider to be stupid questions , or ones so obvious and worn out that you're a bit surprised they still come up ? I believe there are no stupid questions , and it’s actually nice when people ask because if they want to learn something , that’s great . There are

1:08:33probably LGBT people who might find that offensive . Our approach is that as long as someone is open to a conversation , like they want to get to know you , but at the same time show respect , then it’s fine . It depends on the context of the question being asked , because , you know , you can ask

1:08:49it in a thousand different ways . Yeah , well , actually you're right , because I just wanted to add that LGBT people are more often asked things like , " So , how do you do it ? " It’s like me asking my friend , for example , how he does it with his girlfriend . Everyone has different preferences .

1:09:05Especially now that the world is becoming so open , with polyamorous people and others . It's actually being talked about officially now . Everything is becoming more about labeling people , like what we talked about earlier . Is that what you meant ? Well , not entirely , but like we don't understand the topic . In general , that lesbians can also be

1:09:25classified somehow . Well , you can , you can , in the sense that someone already knows what it’s about . Yes , yes . But the world is so open that I've met some friends , and they say they are polyamorous . Cool , that's fine . You know , when you have friends you talk about it with , that’s okay . Because

1:09:41we have friends , but when a stranger asks you , " Hey , how do you do it ? " Well , that’s just not appropriate to ask , those kinds of questions , specifically . I usually answer with a joke , but someone else might be offended or it might annoy someone else . Well , we have a lot of distance , I

1:10:00think , toward ourselves , so there aren't really things that , unless someone insults me personally or my Aga , then ... then you go off . That’s a fact . And have you ever wondered — this will be another one of those " questions from a seven-year-old " — did it ever cross your mind , why am I a lesbian ?

1:10:26Jeez , I think it’s just normal , I guess , that people ... But haven't you analyzed what it stems from ? We’ve analyzed our childhood many times , you know , we’ve wondered if childhood can determine it , or if it’s genetics and all that . And there’s just no real answer to that . It's more of a gene thing , because I

1:10:47didn't add that to my previous statement , I don't even remember which one . I always talk about everything all at once , but about the fact that I don't remember . Okay , never mind . But the point was that my mom once — I'm dyslexic and I went to a psychologist for a long time , because they were

1:11:06testing me to see if my hemispheres were connecting or not , and why I made those mistakes , you know ? I could make 64 in one dictation . My record . Well , the ladies there in Świdnik examined me very thoroughly from left to right , and for some reason , they examined me much more — or

1:11:24rather , taught me — than the other children . Other kids were there for , I don't know , an hour , and I could sit for two , for some reason . I remember thinking that psychology was the most hated profession in the world . I just hate psychologists , it’s just awful . Just like , I don't know , I don't like

1:11:40lawyers , psychologists are something terrible , right ? And in the end , I didn't know why that was happening . And I only found out about it 2 years ago . My mom confessed it to me . My mom went for a talk at the end of my schooling and the lady says to her : " Ma'am , there

1:11:59is this situation , because we were doing various tests here and accidentally , during one test , a certain condition completely came to light . " Or maybe she didn't put it that w — maybe she didn't use that phrasing , but she used some phrasing , that your child is exceptional , that

1:12:20you shouldn't worry about anything , because she is developing properly , everything is fine , just as it should be , and so on , that there is nothing , nothing you should be worried about , but that in the future something will probably happen where well , that you will have to understand that this is not anything bad and so on , and so on ,

1:12:41and so on . Jesus , that was like coming from a fortune teller . Yeah , a bit like fortune telling . Yeah , but I think they didn't really have the right to talk about it . On the other hand , she also didn't know how my mom would react and only now , but did your mom click then what it was

1:12:54about , or no ? No , not at all . That is terrible , because she had to think for a few years , " God , what is going to happen in a moment ? God , another year , is something about to happen ? " Yes , but you said that , you know , everything

1:13:05with me is okay , that I'm developing properly , but that at a certain period of my life I would be different from other children , in the sense that I would develop in a different direction and to just let it happen , that there is nothing wrong with that , in that sense . And it's so stupid , because it's like

1:13:21telling someone about a blue elephant , like , you know , you're not supposed to think about a blue elephant , but it just means you start thinking about it anyway . And my mom forgot about it for many years and only told me two years ago : " Listen , you know , I just now remembered that actually those teachers

1:13:34had accidentally already figured you out when you were in elementary school . " And on top of that , about that first girlfriend of mine , that we sometimes don't — I mean , actually , that first little crush — that we aren't fully aware of what we are really feeling . Because if they already knew in first

1:13:56grade , and I didn't fall in love until , let's say , sixth grade , and they already knew in first grade , then I didn't even have the awareness that I was a little lesbian . It came out by accident when someone crossed my path , in that sense , you know . Someone crossed my path . Well , I just

1:14:13happened to meet someone I fell in love with . To sum up , did you think about why you are a lesbian ? Mhm . I did . Well , no , I also analyzed it , especially when I came out , I wondered and read a lot of articles . I just generally like to know what's going on

1:14:29and I couldn't explain to myself what was happening to me , that , you know , I fell terribly in love back then and couldn't handle it , so I started looking at scientific research , some documentaries , and so on . And , like , I explained it to myself . Well , it's scientifically justified , so I don't

1:14:45really need to analyze it further . It just is the way it is . Is it enough that you explained it to yourself scientifically , was that okay for you ? For me , yes . Well , I like that kind of scientific stuff . You know , it's like she has to explain everything to herself ; if there's a new

1:14:56topic , I don't know what's happening in the world , she'll sit for three hours until she researches it , analyzes it — there was , I don't know , whether it's okay to drink tap water , just ask her . No , she would sit for five hours until she reaches that one document where it's confirmed that you can drink the

1:15:10water , for example , in that sense . So everything has to be researched and analyzed . Is what you feel more important to you , or is it something external ? Well , I understand that for Karola , that kind of external scientific explanation is a confirmation . And in your case I don't analyze it .

1:15:24You don't analyze it that way . The most important thing is that I was happy . It is what it is . Jesus , I don't know honestly , if , I don't know , a UFO landed today and I fell in love , well then it just happens , like , I'm in love . I don't have to explain it to myself , or

1:15:40prove it , or look at why , where it came from , or if it didn't . If there is a person who also loves me , and I also love that person , then why analyze it or dwell on it and try to prove it’s one way or another ? It makes no sense . You got engaged

1:15:57and you mentioned a few times , and from what I saw the versions vary , that you're planning a wedding . Mhm . Yes . Because the versions kept changing . Because the versions kept changing . I saw Vegas , I saw Barcelona , so let's assume the current version is Vegas . Vegas . Well , because we really wanted

1:16:14Barcelona , but it turned out you have to live in Barcelona for three years to get married there . Oh . So that was just a technical issue , then . Yeah , pretty much . We would have done it a long time ago , because it's always closer to Barcelona . And that's actually what I wanted to

1:16:26ask about . So , does that mean Vegas is the answer ? You can just do it on the spot , just fly out and get married ? Yeah . Okay . Crazy , just like in the movies . Crazy , just like in the movies . A crazy Vegas wedding , a crazy life , so for

1:16:39sure . So you are planning that kind of wedding more and more . Actually , we were at a business meeting recently and this lady said , " Well , my ex-wife and I , " and we were just like , wow . It was the first time in Poland we heard someone say , " My ex-wife . " As in , not the current

1:16:56wife . But it has a history . You know what I mean , it's just like , yes it just hit us and we thought , damn , I also want to call you my wife , but as of now , well , we have the set or , unfortunately , this renovation that's eating up quite a bit

1:17:15of our budget . I have a renovation too . Exactly . Once we're done with the renovation , okay , then we're off to Vegas , so you're off to Vegas . And now , my question , a bit of a follow-up to that . I don’t want this to sound tricky , but I want to understand it , because —

1:17:32well , especially not in Kraśnik , not in Świdnik , not in any town where , it seems to me , unlike in Warsaw , that marriage will always be , I mean , is more important than in a big city . I know it sounds a bit stereotypical , but it’s also somewhat of a statistical truth , even .

1:17:49Why do you want to get married ? Because you know — you both know — having many heterosexual couples around who are in relationships , they don't need that marriage , they just live together and say to themselves : " Well , they have , or don't have children . " Yes , they don't have a strict partnership agreement

1:18:04either , they just live their lives together . I’m wondering how it is for you — is it just that desire for marriage that some people have , that you just want to have it formalized , or is there something more you can tell me about ? Well , I’ve always wanted to get married . Generally , the desire for

1:18:21choice , you know , but , but the engagement was a little bit of a rebellion . I mean , at least that’s how it seems to me , because the engagement was a way of showing everyone around us — at a time when so much was happening in our private lives and not everyone fully accepted us as a

1:18:36couple yet — that we don't care , we are engaged , it’s official , and you have to take us seriously . Yes . And it was a rebellion like , " Look , parents , I have a ring , like , we’re getting married . " Um , this is a serious relationship , because from many people , from

1:18:51relatives , we heard , for example , that ... well , I heard it , because your family was already used to it , that it would probably pass for me , that it was a phase , that it wasn't serious , that I'd gotten full of myself , that I should get my act together in life , and

1:19:05so on . And what about children ? And something like that , all those kinds of stories . So , I kind of showed them that this is serious and well , we took a lot of kicks during a certain period of our relationship . It was even hard for us to bear , because everywhere we turned , there was always

1:19:20some kind of slap in the face . Sometimes from family , sometimes from friends , or some old flames would reach out and try to come between us , for example . Well , it was , it was tough . It wasn’t , it wasn’t a pleasant time , and I concluded — I mean , I ultimately came to the conclusion that

1:19:40enough is enough , that I actually know I want to be with you , and I proposed to Karolina at Well , that also kind of strengthened our relationship , because it was a bit shaky at some point since people were trying to pull us apart , so we had some doubts about our relationship for a while ,

1:19:56and this was like , okay , it's serious . Will the wedding change anything in your lives ? I don't think mentally , because we already live like an old married couple . Well , yeah , but it's such a moment , we're just typical girls . We just want to experience it . I mean , I would really

1:20:12love to , that Oh my God , what a beautiful sentence . Super , love it , love it . I really dream , you know , of a wedding , even let the disco polo play . Oh , if Vegas has disco polo , it’ll be No , well , first there will be Vegas and Elvis will be there , and a wedding in

1:20:28Poland . Yes , we dream of it , I mean I really dream of it . Um , so that our family could also celebrate with us and be happy with us . Especially since our family relationships are great now , and our parents and extended family are very happy for our happiness and so on . And once we took out a loan , we totally

1:20:45cemented our relationship for 30 years according to them , so you know . Um , well , it would just be nice to experience it . And secondly , we're the kind of people who love to accumulate our memories . Mhm . and collect them . So , so like , a wedding and a ceremony and Las Vegas and so on , that whole

1:21:04experience , maybe we'll take a trip around the States , those will be more memories that we'll probably remember for the rest of our lives and will be able to tell our potential our kids . Yeah , so , so that's probably why we want to do it . And maybe when governments change one day or something changes in

1:21:22Poland , maybe it will be able to that will happen , I mean that will , that will definitely happen , I mean what no , I think I'm a realist on this , because I mean , yes , of course a lot of things can happen in Poland such that nothing of what we're talking about will happen , but it seems to me that ,

1:21:44realistically looking , the legalization of at least civil unions and then perhaps homosexual marriages . Rather I don't really see any clear reason why it shouldn't happen . I don't know when . Probably not in 5 years , but it will likely happen , so it's the natural

1:22:04course of things . Well yeah , that's how history goes . Well , that's just how it looks and , I don't know , for me it's relatively natural . I don't see , I mean Setting aside political preferences , I honestly don't understand why it would bother anyone if two people in a relationship , two people of the same

1:22:26sex in a relationship , had purely technical problems . I’m talking about the most trivial things here , like dealing with doctors , getting a loan , you know , things like that . Why can't these two people handle such trivial matters together ? I mean , why do we — what does it cost me to let them handle

1:22:47those things , too ? Well , exactly . It doesn't bother anyone . We’ve been wondering about this for a few years now , about that . Exactly , just like you said , things like tax matters . Uh , I understand if someone ... because I suspect there might be — and that will be a much , much bigger dilemma when it

1:23:05comes to adoption by homosexual couples — that for many people it might be like , " No way , " that it might be some kind of boundary , but . But that’s another stage , right ? However , the fact that two people who love each other can't look after one another on a formal level is just incomprehensible

1:23:21to me , so I think it will happen . I , at least , am on that side . Another thing , somewhat related , I actually read this sentence . " The egg will be Agnieszka’s , there will be an in vitro donor , and I , Karolina , will carry Agnieszka’s egg and I will give

1:23:40birth to the child . " That is the most complicated description of a pregnancy I have ever heard , seriously . M , is that — I mean , I understand that’s how it’s done , because again , pregnancy in homosexual relationships is a completely foreign topic to me . So , another question for you : is this a

1:24:00standard practice , does it happen often ? Yes , abroad it’s a fairly common practice for one woman to provide the egg and the other to carry the child . M , in Poland , well , it’s not really , so we will perform this procedure abroad ; we’re looking into clinics somewhere . Mhm . There’s one in the Czech

1:24:16Republic , so it’s actually quite close . Well , we’ve been giving ourselves three or four more years to get our lives in order , and it’s already been about three or four years . Oh no , it’s fine , I’m ready . Well , you always say that , you know . Just a moment , I keep saying all the time that

1:24:32I could have kids already . I mean , I could have kids , too . But you know , where are we supposed to get a loan in Las Vegas and have kids ? It’s about the money . Well , I mean , the method itself can be quite expensive because It also depends on how many attempts

1:24:50are made , and which one will be successful , right ? And like , the transfer , producing the eggs , the transfer itself , fertilization — there are a lot of factors here . How much does it cost ? Have you looked into it ? You know , I saw that it could cost anywhere from 15,000 up to 100,000

1:25:05, because then you have to add the hormones , the hormonal injections you take regularly , so the price is just very flexible . And I understand that this is all more on the side of the woman who will be pregnant . Well , not entirely , because the person who is donating the eggs — in this case

1:25:22, Aga — also has to prepare for it and also wants to , like , get them out . Sure . And you also have to produce them , I think , so from what I know , there are special hormonal injections that increase the production of those eggs . And two , there's a lot of time needed ,

1:25:37because , well , we have this renovation . Uh . Still on about that renovation . I know it's the bane of your existence . I understand you , like , you know , renovations . What ? I love renovations . Aga hates them , so ... But this is my last renovation in life . I'm — I'm on your side here , like .

1:25:55No , but how long can you renovate for ? Because if we had a clinic in Poland , it would be much easier to go somewhere in Poland , but we'll have to make regular visits abroad , so . So we also have to , like , plan our lives , and it has to be adjusted to that , because

1:26:11these are specific days in the ovulation cycle when you suddenly have to say : we're getting in the car because we have to go for injections quickly . We also have animals we can't leave alone , so no , you know , okay , okay . Alright , how Yeah , you're right . We have to plan

1:26:28everything . It's not just a snap of the fingers , but time is flying . I'm getting older and older . You can freeze your eggs . My mom says : " Tick-tock . " Tick-tock . Yeah , that's right . I suspect you have time , and I suspect that this technology is developed enough that it — that it will simply

1:26:45work out . So I hope , since you want to have children , I wish for you that everything works out , that everything is fine , and that it will be your child , loved by you , and that it will all be great . This is very interesting . I mean , it's such a multi-layered story in general , isn't

1:27:00it ? And it happens so rarely that I suspect I'm not the only one who , as I listen to this , thinks , " Wow , how many things you are doing in your life that are so unconventional . " like , you know what I mean , that the whole society , culture , books , movies , music ,

1:27:20everything says boy , girl , right ? that it’s all so , like , nature and it’s all so normal , and you do everything , well , you probably also had fewer places where you could get information , right ? At least back when you were younger , that’s what I think , that there was less of that , right ? And you

1:27:39had to find out a lot of things through a bit of trial and error , right , that it's just awful . And getting to the question of pregnancy , right , that it’s suddenly not so obvious that we have sex and eventually a child will probably appear , right ? Is it exciting , or is it stressful , or

1:27:56is it more , because I kind of think that you have , damn , a lot more stressful things on your side . Well , I mean , for us it’s probably not exciting , like , in terms of looking for solutions , because sometimes we had that rush where , you know , if we were a

1:28:09straight couple , I’d say , " Oh , I could have a baby already , " we probably would have one already , because there were situations where , if we could , we would already have one . But it is time-consuming , because here you have to figure things out , here you have to plan . That makes life harder , but at

1:28:25least it's not boring . I don’t know , I approach it more as creating shared memories , looking for stages , yes . But that’s cool , it’s not boring . At least here , versus having it done in a flash and in 9 months you have a baby , here you get to go to the Czech Republic , explore Prague a bit .

1:28:43you forget that I’m usually the one looking for everything . Oh , okay , okay , okay . Someone will drive you there and handle things too . Well , okay , okay . Well , yes . Uh , so in that case , are you also thinking about a child sometime soon ? Well , I think so .

1:29:00By three . And do you know , do you know any LGBT couples who have their own biological children ? Yes , yes , we do . We do , we do . There are also a few such couples on Instagram who show their life with kids and And it’s great , because from what I know , from conversations here and there

1:29:16, those kids function normally . Like I don’t know , they are currently at diff — I mean , the kids are at different ages , but at the moment , the couple I observe the most and am in touch with , their child is at that stage of , like , finishing kindergarten or starting elementary school , so they

1:29:34probably don't have those social issues with peers yet , because that’s what stresses us out the most . But I feel like before our child even arrives , and then before they enter that world of elementary school and peers , there’s a ton of time , and the world is changing rapidly , so it will change .

1:29:54The internet . Pardon ? And the world of the internet . I mean , the child will also be — well , they will be on the internet . Let’s face it , like , this every child is on the internet now , and I think your child even more so . No , I mean , that’s obvious , you’ll surely

1:30:07figure out how to handle the child in social media , you know , like every family has to consider now whether to show their child on Instagram or not . Regardless of whether they lead their life online more or less . Uh , but it’s just something that appears at some point , so the internet is also ,

1:30:24well , a pretty hardcore place for kids . Uh , could you please tell me , uh , this is , just so I understand correctly , on a completely different note . You were both on Top Model for a moment . Mhm . Did I see that right , because I was at the casting where you were together .

1:30:40Well , but actually Aga was the one who was on screen later . Did your orientation matter at all in the show ? I’m asking as a layman , because I’ve never watched Top Model . Was it , you know , for example , from a marketing perspective , because sometimes when making a show , it happens that someone

1:30:58is interesting to have on camera . Did that matter ? It’s not really for me to judge , because I wasn’t on the production side . I don’t know . Well , I was treated well there , actually , just like I think all the participants were . It is a very demanding show in many respects . I

1:31:19don’t know , the internet was buzzing the moment I was eliminated from Top Model , saying they used my story and that it was manipulation , and that they used me , and that that’s how it looked . Many people thought I should have gone further , so , I don’t know , in my opinion , every Top Model has its

1:31:36own script . These are also formats probably taken from the States or some other country , so it’s really hard to determine , it’s not for me to judge whether they used me or not . Well . How do you feel about it ? Did you , did you feel that it is . Well , you know ,

1:31:56you , just like any other participant in such a show , you sell a bit of yourself , right ? You sell your story . We all know shows where there is then yes , there is , there is a presentation of the character , then there is a camera at their home , and there always has to be some kind of story , a back

1:32:10story . Well , it's quite natural in this type of format , isn't it ? But did you feel that it was , I don't know , somehow more or no ? I think everyone had their own story in Top Model . There wasn't a person who didn't undergo a super extra transformation . who didn't change their

1:32:27life , world view , and look , you know , by 180 degrees , so every person there had their 5 minutes sooner or later , it depends on the person . M I don't know . Well , I think that probably had some meaning , perhaps , but I wanted to , can I jump in , because

1:32:49from my perspective , in general , I think you were doing great in the show . You could have gone further somewhere . But the plot , as it is in television , a certain plot of our story was exhausted , but I also don't consider , I wouldn't call it exploitation , because for me it's a win-win on the principle : okay ,

1:33:09they took our story , exhausted the thread , it could have gone further , because since you were doing well , you also have a modeling face , you could be doing some cool campaigns , but also , let's not hide it , it gave us a lot , in the sense that it's television , somewhere Aga became more recognizable .

1:33:27Our socials grew somewhere , so let me tell you this , whether to call it exploitation , it's not exactly exploitation . You could call it exploitation , well , the story was used like most of the participants who had some story of their own , smaller or larger . And how someone did after the show is their

1:33:48individual business . I am very satisfied with my current situation and , as you said , when it comes to campaigns , collaborations , and so on , it is what I could only dream of , so I am happy about that . But the fact that Top Model gave me that opportunity , even though I dropped out halfway

1:34:07through the show , it's okay for me . I am satisfied with that . Okay . And in that case , for you Karolina , when you were in Fame , was it again the case that you being LGBT had any meaning during , I don't know , conferences , communication , you know , did you feel it in any way or

1:34:27in the case of Fame , I never had any imposed script . There , everyone , you decide for yourself how you want to show yourself . Okay . From what I know , from talking with them , they brought me in because of my fight that took place on Polsat , which I managed to win , and that was

1:34:43their main focus . Uh , the LGBT topic was always secondary to them . It was more that we wanted to show ourselves together because that's the kind of content we create , so I sort of wove our narrative into Fame MMA , and they were , like , great with it , because they are very tolerant , so they

1:35:00accepted it . Can I just add something ? Something just came to mind . I've always been meeting with Karolina . I’m always right there by her side . I support her in all these preparations , and I remember there was a meeting you had , I think right before the conference . Mhm . Mhm . Should I continue ? No ,

1:35:17I don't know . I'll speak closer to the microphone . Come on , go ahead . Yeah , go on . So , there’s this meeting , and I don't remember who was standing there , I don't know if it was Wardęga , or Boxdel , or maybe one of the hosts . No , no , I don't remember . They said : " And

1:35:34now , for [ __ ] sake , remember : zero talking about LGBT , zero [ __ ] , zero this , zero that . " Yes , and that was actually cool in that regard , because when I showed up , they said you can't use the word [ __ ] , no attacks on LGBT people . Although , those

1:35:51words were still used there because some fighters couldn't bite their tongues , but from the federation's side , we always felt very well taken care of , so I have the impression that this appeared since you showed up ; I also noticed it a bit earlier , but at the first meeting when I appeared , there was immediately such a conversation ,

1:36:07and everyone was like and it looked to me like they made that decision out of respect for me and for LGBT people as well . Ladies , thank you very much . I learned a lot today , so I hope you , dear viewers , did too . I wish you good luck . I wish for you not to encounter any

1:36:28hate , because in my opinion , no one should encounter hate , and certainly no one should encounter hate for who they love or who they are in a relationship with . So , like , I hope that for you , there will just be less of it . I wish you luck with your upcoming projects .

1:36:44Thank you for coming by . It was , it was a pleasure . Thank you for the conversation . I sincerely apologize for the renovation work , dear viewers . I'm going to kill my neighbor , and I hope it ends quickly . Thank you for watching , and see you in the next episode .