Full transcript
0:00Hey there Joe, thanks so much for coming to hang out with me and chat a little bit and thanks to everyone for tuning in. I wanted to get together with Joe, Joe Tidy, doing some incredible stuff in his the reporter world, but I'm really curious about what you've been doing lately for the launch and publish of a
0:15new book, right? Congratulations on Control Alt Chaos. >> Yes, my first book. Very exciting. It's been a a labor of love now for oh, I think two years. About two years ago was when I I wrote the pitch for it and then, you know, put it in and then got a publisher and started work on it. And in order to get it done around my
0:35job at the BBC as cyber reporter, I just quit TV. I didn't watch TV for a year. And that's that's how I managed to write the book. Um so, it's lovely that you've got it in your hands and uh and I hope you enjoy it. >> Yes, I have been going through slowly but surely. I'll admit I'm not all the
0:51way done. I'm not through the whole thing quite yet, but it is a wild, really expose and just kind of showcase of look what teenage hackers and teenage cybercrime really looks like today and throughout the past recent history, right? >> Yeah, that's it. So, that the the central storyline is about one guy. This
1:12guy called Julius Kivimäki, who a lot of your viewers will probably recognize the name. I have described him as the most hated hacker in history. I can't think of a more hated individual in terms of like a cybercriminal. And John, you've been in the game longer than me. So, if you can think of anyone, please let me
1:30know and I can, you know, have a I can suggest it and maybe I'll change the blueprint. But the reason the reason is because this guy, Julius Kivimäki, also known as Zeekill and the untouchable hacker god. Do you recognize that? Zeekill? >> Zeekill I know was certainly the alias that I saw all throughout the >> Yes. >> Yeah.
1:49>> Yes. So, he was part of a horrendous cyber attack, you know, one of the nastiest ones, maybe the nastiest one in history, the hack of the Vastaamo Psychotherapy Centre chain in Finland, which has gone down as, you know, a real kind of nadir in cybercrime history. So, what he did was he managed to break into the the servers of the Vastaamo company,
2:11which ran psychotherapy centers all over the country, and it was really, really popular, and it was used by thousands of people to help with mental health issues. So, psychotherapists, psychiatrists, that kind of thing. He got in. He stole all the data, all the usual stuff we talk about all the time, you know, phone numbers, email addresses,
2:32real addresses, social security numbers, but also he stole the therapy notes of those individuals, and it was 33,000 people who had their, you know, deepest, darkest secrets, the things you tell your therapist, you know, I can't think of a worse data set to be in the hands of a criminal. He stole it all, and then he went through
2:50this really nasty process of trying to get money for the for the hack. So, he went to the CEO, and he asked the CEO for 400,000 euros worth of Bitcoin. That didn't work, so he started releasing the the data 100 sets at a time, 100 victims at a time on the dark net. Then he made an absolutely enormous
3:10blunder and cocked something up in a big way. I won't ruin it, but it's like classic stuff, which led him to eventually be found. But before he did that, he did the really, really cruel move of of emailing as many of those 33,000 people as he could saying, "I've got your therapy notes. I know everything. Pay me." And that was about 20,000
3:3127,000 people who got that email, and the impact on those people, I spoke to some of them in my book, absolutely horrendous. Some people are still having PTSD. One of the lawyers who represents thousands of the victims, she says, not she's never sort of provided any evidence of this, but she says that some of the families, two of the families
3:49said that people took their lives over that getting that email. So, that in in on its own, you know, that would that would qualify for a pretty horrendous career in cybercrime, but of course this wasn't Julius Kivimäki's first rodeo. He had a decade-long cybercrime spree even before that, and that's what the book is about. Who is he? How did he get into this?
4:10What turns a gaming-obsessed boy, and it is as you know, no normally always boys, isn't it? What turns them into one of or in the end was one of the most wanted cybercriminals in the world, and and that's what the book's about. And sort of quite neat about the Kivimäki story is that he, when he was working for and
4:31hacking for Lizard Squad and HTP, all these gangs in the 2010s, he tracks all the way through. And what I what I realized in the research for the book was there was something happening in the 2010s that completely changed the hacking culture, the teenage hacking culture. And and that's what the book's all about. >> Yeah, it strikes a chord, you know, just
4:51cuz I think the morality of, you know, cybercrime and then especially hey, targeting and infiltrating and exposing with blackmail and extortion therapy records just tends to kind of hit home. I know we talk a lot in the cybersecurity sphere of, you know, geopolitical conflict, oh the ones and zeros, the tech behind it, but it
5:12gets undeniably and like painfully personal when it's something that affects you in a really sensitive and sore way. So, that is certainly I think what would earn the mark of yeah, the world's most hated hacker, but the gaming direction is interesting. I feel like that's been a trend of okay, the upbringing and origin
5:34story of some potential cybercrime actors, but I don't know if you're willing to dive into the fact that look, it it starts to get violent to a certain extent, right? What these cybercriminal gangs and I'll say organized crime syndicates are starting to evolve to is certainly a lot real
5:55world scary than just the bits and bites across the computer wires, right? >> Yeah, I think what we've seen with these teenage hacking gangs is there's been this massive shift. So, if you think about sort of like people will say, "Hang on, Joe. Teenagers have always been hacking. It's been a pursuit since the internet is old as the internet." But, I would
6:13say if you look at the sort of '80s, '90s, early 2000s, things were different. There was If you think about like Chaos Computer Club and Legion of Doom, L0pht, Cult of the Dead Cow, these were teenagers. These were guys who were, you know, gray sometimes sort of on the gray side, but they were about exposing bad code and embarrassing giant
6:34corporations and generally speaking making the internet a safer place. I don't think we've got we can say that about any of these gangs now. Since sort of LulzSec and then Lizard God XTP all the way through to where we are now with the Com, Scattered Spider, Lapsus, they're far more interested now in power, infamy, and Bitcoin.
6:57And I think when There's a There's a really good research called Allison Nixon >> Oh, yes. >> um who's Do you know Allison? Yeah, so she's like >> through and I was so glad she was mentioned in here because she, I know, tracks all of it. >> She does. Yeah. My love My chapter where it's where I bring her into the story, I
7:12always think I'm quite proud of my first sentence cuz I say, "Allison Nixon is a professional lurker." >> Yes. >> Which is about is basically saying that she just hangs out in these communities, learns all about these kids. And she says that the problem is when you've got money, when you throw money into these communities, Bitcoin, and you throw and
7:30it's like all these kids Let's be honest, it's boys and they're all, you know, prepubescent and they've got hormones flying around everywhere and it will get violent. It reminds me of that book Lord of the Flies. Don't know if you ever ever read that book. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. You know, when you get, you know, all these kids on an
7:46island, all these boys on an island with no grown-up oversight, it can, I'm not saying all kids will be like this, of course, but it can get pretty nasty. And what we've seen the last few years is that it's no longer enough to do swatting attacks and and doxing and stuff against your rivals in these communities. In some cases, and
8:06it's still, you know, it's still you know, luckily not that prevalent, but in some cases we see bricks being thrown through windows, houses being shot at. One video I saw uh from Krebs's website, Brian Krebs, Krebs on Security, he threw a someone through a uh Molotov cocktail at someone's house. You know, so they This is what happens, I think,
8:26if you get that kind of thing in these kind of communities. But it has to be said, John, I think it's important to and I I say this in the book, like I don't think that it we we can't concentrate too much on the physical kind of like IRL stuff because there are real victims of cybercrime, you know,
8:42traditional cybercrime as well. So the people who've had their data stolen from Vasta Mela, for example, prime example, perfect example of what can happen. There's no physicality there, but it can ruin lives. >> Without a doubt. One of the coolest things I thought I saw was you were going through each phase of Julius and ZKill is life
9:04throughout the book and each kind of in incident, attack, intrusion. And I thought I saw just inklings of Hey, you're also showing not just the public worldwide perception of okay, these incidents, but even the sort of underground dark web cybercrime culture or like their own ecosystem and how they perceive what ZKill is doing or other
9:24actors. And I couldn't tell if there was a sort of semblance where they were thinking like, "Look, you've gone too far sometimes. In the cybercrime code of conduct, you crossed a line." Yeah. >> Yeah, well, I think, you know, you're right. There are there are many cases where the actions of Zeekill were beyond the pale for a lot of these a lot of
9:44these groups. In fact, there's a part of the book where he gets in trouble with the police and and it turns out that that that was because of someone snitching on him because he kept falling out with people because he would go too far and he would do things that that others wouldn't. And the interesting thing about that is it again, this is a
10:00this is a sort of quote from Allison who says that in these communities, it's not necessarily about how technically savvy you are, how good you are as a hacker, it's about the anarchy and the chaos and the balls. Like, will you do things that others won't? And Kim Dotcom just doesn't didn't seem to have a an off
10:19switch. He brought down a a passenger airline because he was annoyed with the head of Sony Online Entertainment. So, he called up and and said there was a bomb on the plane and like had to re-divert the plane and all this stuff, you know. That's for a lot of kids watching on, they'd be like, "Whoa, that's so cool. Well done, Kim Dotcom."
10:36But also, there's others that go, "Whoa, hang on a minute. I don't want to be involved with this guy." >> Yeah. Goodness. Can I ask a little bit about you and and really your process going through the writing, going through the research, going through if you're willing to show a little bit behind the curtain of like, "Look, what have you What did you do to
10:57keep getting these stories?" I thought you were tuning into a couple of the trials. Like, what are the crazy wild stories you have personally from putting together Control Alt Chaos? >> Well, um it was it was really, you know, well, I don't want to say autobiographical cuz as a journalist, you don't want to put yourself in it,
11:12you know. But that I start the book by saying that I first came across Julius Kim Dotcom when he was 17, 10 years ago now. So, I was working at Sky News as a general correspondent covering anything and everything that happened during the day, you know, home affairs, politics, crime, whatever. And I remember in 2014 at Christmas time,
11:33I came in uh and it was on Boxing Day, I think, or the day after Boxing Day, and I was sort of like tired and full of turkey and chocolate and hung over, and I wanted to have an easy day. So, I thought, "Oh, wouldn't it be nice just to have it like a really easy story where I get to sit
11:48at the warm desk in the studio, you know, just chit-chat with the presenter about stuff?" Wasn't to be, because the news editor came up to me and said, "Have you heard about this Lizard Squad attack?" And I was like, "What are you talking about? I've no idea what you're on about." Cuz at that time I had no idea
12:04or no interest in cyber. I had an interest in tech, but no I've never covered a cyber story. So, he goes to me, "Well, you're relatively young. You've got to cover this story, and not only that, the head of Sky News wants He's called up and he says you've got to get one of these Lizard Squad hackers on
12:20the air tonight." So, that was the challenge, and after going through many many many rabbit holes and bouncing around the internet, lots of dead ends, I managed to get Kim Dotcom on a on a Skype call. We we we did an interview and it went on the on the report. And of course that went viral because he was so
12:37arrogant, so nihilistic, you know, loved the attention. And what he'd done at that point was he'd worked with the Lizard Squad guys to bring down Xbox Live and PlayStation 1 with a big DDoS and a a big DDoS Christmas time as well. So, it affected about 150 million people. They obviously couldn't register their new consoles, couldn't play with
12:58their mates, anything like that. I mean, this is Christmas time as well, so peak time for that kind of thing. He didn't give a damn. And I remember doing that interview and thinking, "Wow, I can't believe that there are criminals out there that are so brazen and they're so anarchic and they love it." And and I'd had no idea that you could
13:19sort of have that kind of power with a keyboard and mouse from, you know, thousands of miles away. And that really set me on a path of my my obsession with cyber and and cyber journalism. And that was my first ever cyber story. And I remember I did quite a lot quite a few follow-ups about that and about Lizard Squad. But then they
13:37sort of died off. But I thought to myself, I wonder what's going to happen to this Kivimäki guy? And of course, lo and behold, he pops up 6 years later or whatever it was linked to this horrendous attack in Finland. So that was that was why that was how I got into cyber and also really why I wrote
13:53the book. >> Wow. It's wild. There's There's a long and thorough history there like across the decade. But I think like I saw the epilogue right at the very end that was noting a little bit more of the current real-time 2025 and 2026 situation. Were there some recent updates? Were there
14:13Were there some new information coming to light? >> Yeah, the problem with writing a non-fiction journalistic book is if you're doing it about relatively recent history, you've got to like change it every when new stuff happens. But yeah, so what So that the book came out in the UK last summer.
14:34And it came out in the US quite recently. Thank you. And we had to put the epilogue in because in that period of time between the two publishing, Julius Kivimäki was was released from prison in quite a quite a surprising move. He His sentence was There was a maximum 7 years. Which you're probably thinking, is that it?
14:54>> Yeah. >> And you'd be right because that is to a lot of people quite a short sentence for such a horrendous crime. But in Finland, that's what it's like. Uh Finland is famously quite lenient on sentences and stuff like that. So he was released after after time served essentially cuz he he was arrested in Paris. He was I won't go
15:13into it, but he was on the run and he had a fake passports and fake names. They found him. They brought him to Finland. So they He He did a couple of years kind of like in probation, if you like, before the trial. And then, once the trial happened and he was eventually convicted, the the his lawyers said they managed to convince
15:30the judges to let him go early because he'd already served his time. So, that was what the epilogue is about. Plus, in that period of time as well, HBO have made a whole documentary series about about him, uh which is pretty cool. And they interviewed me for that, which I put a bit in the in the epilogue. But then
15:45there's new stuff which happened yesterday. >> Yeah. >> So, this is very current. So, where are we now is the What is it? 20 26th. It was the 26th of February, and I knew this was coming because what happened was Julius Kivimäki, he appealed his sentence. So, this is the fascinating thing about this guy. Even though he's
16:05done his time, he still is determined to try and mess with the system. So, he did his appeal, which would have cost him a lot of money, but he's got a lot of money, so it doesn't matter. And it was rejected. And he not only was it rejected, but he might have to go back to prison now because they've
16:23increased his sentence. So, there's just twists and turns all the time with this story, and I hope maybe now that what you're reading won't be very very I hope I hope I hope that will be the historical record cuz I don't want to keep writing more and more and more cuz you have to stop somewhere, don't you?
16:38>> Oh, totally. I know you don't need to keep continuing this thing ad nauseam. I think already what it is is just the story in all angles and directions of what the cybercrime hacking culture at a young at a young age really has turned into. And then I know you really like to have kind of more of the
16:58thought-provoking question of like, "Okay, look, this is well-established. We know they're bad actors, cybercriminals, and oftentimes it's the kiddo boys. But how do we stop that vicious cycle? Is there a way to Can we get out in front of it? I don't I don't know." >> No, and I'm afraid neither do I. This is
17:19the problem. It's It's the It's the million-dollar question. I think first of all, John, you you are with your experience with Huntress and your cyber career, you know, you know that actually it's not always the Russians, it's not always the North Koreans or the Chinese. Sometimes it's little Johnny upstairs in his bedroom. >> Mhm. >> And that can be a Western kid causing
17:41absolute carnage from his bedroom on his laptop. >> Mhm. >> But you know that, but actually I don't think a lot of people in the in the in the in do know that because I've been really surprised at the reaction to last year's events with Scattered Spider. In the UK in particular, there was this wave of attacks on Co-op and M&S, these
17:58these massive department store chains that everyone loves, and Harrods, very famous luxury store. And then there was attacks on US Airlines. It just It was crazy last year. And people were surprised. They were like, "Whoa, hang on a minute. This is kids and they're English speaking. What? I thought it was Cuz we are led to believe, you know, by police forces and
18:20uh security services that it's always It never never comes from our shores, it's always them." Exactly. Lots of point Lots of finger pointing. So, I think first of all, in order to stop this cycle, you have to recognize it exists. And I think still, everywhere, US, UK, Ireland, Finland, there is a a kind of a refusal to accept
18:42that the problem could be with us. And I've noticed that >> Mhm. >> and I've been speaking about the book now for for a good few months and people always say to me, "Oh, are you sure these kids aren't being groomed by the Russians?" I was like, "No, they're not." You know, if you sit in these communities, if you sit in these chats,
18:57and if you listen to some of their inane Skype calls that last for hours, you know, these are just kids mucking around having fun with with no oversight from parents. And there's I don't I don't I don't buy it. I don't buy this blame this blame culture. But I think there's a few things that people kept coming back to when I spoke to them. So,
19:16the head of the the Finnish police that that did the the the the case against Kivimäki to find out who the Vastaamo hacker was, he called himself Ransom Man. That's uh that's the alias. So, he had to find out who Ransom Man was. He says, "We need to teach kids that cybercrime can harm people." Because some of these kids that hack
19:37into companies, steal data, extort people, they would never go up to an old lady and kick her in the street. They wouldn't they wouldn't dream of it. Because they're, you know, nice kids. So, that's one of the first things is education. And then also, there's discussion about sentencing. Because quite often, if you're under 18, you kind of get away
19:55with all sorts in the cyber world, and you don't have any real repercussions. And these kids, they you already you've been a teenage boy, John. You know this. You feel invincible. And when you've got the law on your side as well, you know, then you're you're going to you're not going to stop, are you? Um and then some people also blame the
20:13parents. And this is really really tricky, I think, because it's easy. It's easy to do. Why How are the parents letting their kids get away? Why you know, stop him. Take him off his laptop. But, the problem I have with that is that it's really really hard. I haven't got kids that are old enough to to have
20:31this sort of thing. But, I know that technology is generational. And try as we might, we do get left behind. And Discord and Telegram, completely alien to if you're not on those services. I don't know if you agree with that. What do you think? How How do you think we should stop the cycle? >> Yeah, I I'm right there with you. I I
20:52wish I had a good answer. I don't think I do. I have always really just been a proponent and been an advocate for the education and for the awareness and just the understanding. But, I know that that's weak sometimes. That that doesn't get you all the way to the finish line to lock it in oh, completely fixed. We
21:10solved the problem. It just works towards hopefully a solution. I've been, you know, randomly pulled into some of the weird shady Telegram chats with oh, cybercrime weirdos and a little bit of like weird high school drama and I think you and I got to connect some time ago of like, "Hey John, do you know anybody that might be worth chatting with?" But
21:32>> And you put me in touch with a guy who was very very interesting and thank you very much for that. >> Yeah, fine fun intel feeds, right? But >> Yeah. >> I I know and it's a weird sort of understanding even when I converse with a a threat actor or cybercriminal, whoever that might be. It's like a weird
21:48like unspoken like, "Look, I know you are on the good side of the fence and you are on the bad side of the fence." If we say that if that's the right interpretation. But it is for me, I feel like look, you've just got to have a moral compass that's like dialed in. Like you know ethically what's good and
22:10bad, what's right and wrong and then some people that may or may not be willing to like waver on that when truthfully tools, programs, attack scripts, exploits, zero days, info stealer malware logs, ransomware builders, like all this stuff is a commodity now. Like anyone could pull it off the shelf
22:33and do damage. You just sort of have to know, okay, that is bad. That is illegal. That is cybercrime. And finding the barometer is different for the bad actors. I don't know. It's super hard to capture that as I'm sure you know. >> Yeah. I was wondering how how did you get into into this? Did you did you ever
22:52sort of dabble in gray gray hats or anything like that? >> When I was a young kiddo, I in my old like middle school and high school I could see that a lot of the like network shares across the computer library for our school were totally open and you could, you know, put a little file there and
23:13then trigger it remotely and then sure have code execution across all the things inside the building, which was silly and fun. And at their local library, like the community town local library building, they was some sequel injection, some like vulnerability to drop and damage all the database of book records that they had electronically cataloged. These
23:36sort of things I would go tell and communicate to the front desk, "Hey, can I talk to your IT manager person?" Or "Hey, over at school, like I do want to let the IT folks know you guys are sure, I know the open printer connectivity is what we want, but it's open every file share." And there were
23:52like the weird adult and young boy conversations of "Yeah, we know. We we just have to architect this way for convenience or for ease and security is turned down because of it." Which is a weird thing. >> Yeah. >> But sorry, I I don't know if I'm rambling. To your point, I'm sure we've all dabbled in figuring out and like you
24:13mentioned, oh, teenager hackers Teenager hackers are doing whatever they do. They're doing it forever. But it's the finding the right path and not the wrong path, so. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's it's good that you never found yourself on that bad path. By the sounds of it, you were doing bug bounty hunting like when you're a >> Dude, that's awesome.
24:31>> Silly stuff. >> Actually not actually asking for anything. >> I mean, it as again, it was the curiosity, it was the wonder, oh, can I get this to do something that's unexpected, unintended, but there's that line of like, okay, we're not going to use this to steal books. We're not going to use this to blackmail and extort therapy victims.
24:50Like goodness, there I don't know, it's such a >> What do you think What do you think was the the the no the sort of north star for you then? Like, did you have good parents that helped you know right from wrong or did you have a good moral compass in your personal life? >> It might I think, looking back on it,
25:08had probably come from some parental influence of him mom and dad kind of really instilling like look these are the right ethics, this is the right moral compass. I like to think that I am still contributor to it though. I don't think I would say oh it was all mom and dad. I thought hey I've got a straight
25:24head on my shoulders, you know what I mean? Head straight on. That I hope. But I don't know. Obviously it's a very different world when you ask Julius Kikhobmif and all Ezekiel, right? >> Ezekiel, yeah. Yeah. And I think the difficulty is that I've spoken to some cybercriminals as well and and you have the you have these
25:45issue these situations where they find a vulnerability in an in an organization like like you did as you were when you're a kid. They go and they try and do in brackets you know the right thing and warn them and tell them and they get ignored or they get told off or they get you know threatened. And then they think well why am I why am
26:04I doing that then? I'm going to go and make some money. And sometimes, as we know is sadly the case, there is money to be made in this world. And of course the 2010s I think when we saw this real dark shift in the teenage hacking culture there were no bug bounties. And now with HackerOne, Bugcrowd and
26:23others, you know, you can make a living doing that kind of good stuff. But back then you didn't have that. And of course I'm not saying that bug bounties have solved the problem because, you know, evidently they have not. But it certainly has helped and I I've spoken to one guy. I did a BBC documentary about him. I went to
26:41Argentina and spoke to this this hacker called Santiago Lopez and he became the first person to make a million dollars on HackerOne. >> Mhm. >> Uh and you know and he told me to be honest, I may have I may have gone a dark path if I hadn't have seen this as an option. So, more of that I suppose is is another
27:00another potential answer. >> Yeah, getting the real awareness and education that hey, there is a a right and true path for still pursuing cybersecurity without the chaos end of it. >> Yes. Yes. And and and and a decent living as well. You know, like I I sometimes wish I'd have actually, you know, leaned into the cybersecurity. I
27:21don't know if I've got the brain for it. I don't know if I'm smart enough, but I see some of the, you know, the cars that these guys drive and all the and I've I've experienced like some of the real wow factor that some cybersecurity professionals bring and it's just it's really awesome. >> Well, can I ask what's next for you,
27:39Joe? Is there a Control Alt Chaos 2 in the works? Are you thinking you'll do this thing again? Couple more years? Are you still on the marketing hype tour? What What are you doing these days? >> I'm definitely still on the marketing hype tour and we've got the the book, you know, I'm got lots of speaking things and book signings and stuff,
27:57which is really fun. I love it. Cuz the the funny thing for me, have you written a book, John? >> I have not. Like the opportunity knocks every now and again, but it is a mountain of work. >> Yeah, oh mate, it is insane. So, what I was going to say is it's a it's a really strange thing cuz writing a book is very
28:16it's a lonely process because, you know, you do the pitch and then you work with the publisher and they say, "Right, this is what we want." And they say, "See you in 9 months." And then you just on your own in a dark room. And I remember thinking to myself many times, "Oh, is this Is it worth it?
28:31You know, like, do people actually want to read this? Is it actually interesting? What am I doing? Am I wasting my life?" And then when it's out and you go and you go to these events and people are have read it and they love it and they want you to sign it and it just feels amazing. So, it's been
28:47really massively rewarding, the most rewarding thing I've done in my career for sure. I have got plans to write another one. I have started the process, but it's about the Russia-Ukraine cyber war, and it's really really hard, and it's quite intimidating as a topic. So, it's going to take a long time for me to actually, you know, get it to a point
29:08where I can pitch it and stuff. Um but I'm I'm I've got, you know, I think I've got a good a good angle, and uh and it does when I get going it excites me, but then at the same time, you know, it's it's busy with the BBC and stuff doing lots of stuff on on hacking for the Beeb and documentaries
29:25and just had a podcast series as well about Evil Corp, the Russian cybercrime gang. >> Yeah. >> Um so, yeah, pretty pretty busy. Yeah. >> Well, my friend, I did want to get together if just to celebrate and help be part of the party with the incredible achievement. I really do know again, just as kind of you mentioned, look,
29:45it's a long, arduous, lonely process, but then you're out at the other end of it and it's doing incredible things and it's great to see it in people's hands. I I hope that is just such a cool, proud, personal milestone. So, hey, congratulations. >> Yeah, it is. Great. Thanks, John. And thanks for having me. >> Absolutely. Any cool call to action?
30:04Hey, it's links down below. I can Hey, get anyone a chance for them to be able to pre-order, get a book, or order now. >> Oh, yeah, it's in all the usual spots. Yeah, and you can follow me on all the all the usual places. Apart from Twitter, I've come off Twitter now for obvious reasons. >> For your safety, right? For your sanity.
30:21>> Safety and sanity. Yeah. >> Well, thank you again and again, Joe. Great to be here with you and just congratulations, Control-Alt-Chaos. We'll help spread the word. >> Thanks a lot.