Senator Chris Murphy and ‘Crisis of the Common Good’ | Higher Learning | The Ringer

0:09Okay, special guest on the podcast, Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut is joining us today [music] on being thanks for having me, guys. >> Um, you're in California. You have a brand new book. It's out now. Crisis of the Common Good is the book. Let me ask you a question. Um, we're going to get

0:30into some of the stuff in the book, but before we get into all of that, how are you writing a book? There's so much for you to do in the Senate. What you writing a book for, man? Like, well, y'all need to be getting stuff done for us. What? What? Why are you Why a book? Be >> because I think if we want to get stuff

0:45done for people, >> we have to understand how serious the problem is. And I do worry that, you know, Trump dominates every inch of our discussion and we're so focused on these elections and yes, I want to beat him. Um, but there's a deeper rot in this country that we have to talk about. And I think everybody knows that that, you

1:06know, we're lonier than ever before. We feel powerless in our lives, but nobody really has a language with which to sort of access that conversation and they don't know what to do about it. So yeah, I I think the the the the task is a lot bigger than just stopping Trump's legislative agenda, beating him at the polls. I think we've we've got a

1:26spiritual mission that we have to engage in. And I wrote the book because I worry that there's almost too much focus on Trump and on the elections.

1:36>> You said that we've always kind of like known that some of this is here, right? Like it's been here. Like you talk about Trump is a symptom. He's not >> right >> the thing. It didn't start with him. If we've known this for years, and I'm just going to say particularly Democrats, I'll talk about then why were we not on

1:55top of it? If we knew that like Trump or anybody like a Trump could be a symptom, why are we just now responding to it? And why were we not on top of it? >> Yeah. I I think the simplest answer is money. Um, so this book talks about six cults, like these sets of false ideas that we've come to believe are true but

2:14are not really true. And they all acrew to the benefit of a very small number of people at the sort of top of the economy and top of the political pyramid. And the reason that we have structured an economy and a culture that helps a very small number of people is because our politics are corrupt and they're corrupt

2:30on the right and the left. And that's the other thing I this book is about is it's it's not just about Trump's corruption. We focus on his corruption because it's new and it's bananas. It's it does threaten the republic. But the whole politics has been captured by very powerful people, corporations that want no changes in the way that they're

2:49regulated. And that's an issue on the left and the right. So I think that's why, you know, we have not as Democrats really sought to confront a lot of these cults in the past. >> I hear a lot of politicians saying that, a lot of people in politics say that. But when you start to drill down on the

3:06issues that seem to identify that, you always get some push back. Like we would say, hey, uh I give you an example. Like I you you'd say there's corruption on the left and the right and big politics. I'm like, okay, cool. Well, then let's be robust for singlepayer healthcare, >> for Medicare for all things that

3:26eliminate the corporate influence on our lives. And you can't get people you get people to say that. I'm talking about you specifically. I'm just talking about a a a method of thinking here. But you can't get people to get behind a policy that would trim away some of the cancer out of our politics. Is that indicative of being served a lip service or is this

3:49rot so deep that it can't be excised? >> Yeah, I I I think that the corruption of our economy is downstream of the corruption of our politics. So the reason you are not getting, you know, accountability for insurance companies or drug companies, the reason you're not getting singlepayer healthcare is because they have captured our politics.

4:09They put a ton of money into our politics on the left and the right. But I do think that there are these broader false belief systems that cause people to maybe maybe um uh be be less enthusiastic than we would like for these brand new systems. So the first chapter in the book is the cult of profit. And we've just come to believe

4:29on the right and the left that a good company is a company that makes a profit. Period. Stop. Right? They can abuse their workers. They can hollow out the community they live in. They can create a product with very little social value, but as long as they make a profit, they're a good company. And so in our healthcare economy, you know, the

4:47good companies are the companies that are treating us terribly, that are denying us medicines just because they make a profit. And we have to confront that entire cult system. this idea that we can't judge an economy based on anything other than how much profit they make. We could and if we did that, I think we'd think very differently about

5:06how to structure the healthare system.

5:08>> Would you describe yourself as a capitalist? >> Yeah. >> Okay. So, if you are a capitalist and you believe in capitalism, I'm assuming. >> Yeah. >> I'm assuming. Okay. So, then how are you going to divorce yourself from those two ideals? Meaning that in capitalism, anything that makes a profit is a good >> Yeah. So the I think the conception

5:28today is that there's only two choices. Um a profit obsessed market fundamentalism and socialism. Um I make the argument in this book that there is such thing as common good capitalism. Now I get it. Like there's a lot of people who think that that's [ __ ] right? [laughter] Yeah. Yeah. But why can't but but but why can't you have a

5:46floor of benefits for workers, right? You show up into the workforce and you're getting paid $25 an hour guaranteed. you have a robust pension benefit and healthcare benefit um from the day you start inside the health care system. We don't um leave the private sector to do it by themselves. We give everybody the option to buy into a

6:07public product. Um we break up concentrated corporate power everywhere every day. We don't let companies get so big that one guy, one board of directors sets the rules of our culture through, you know, massive technological products that we're all addicted to. I do think that there is a way to raise the floor for workers to make them feel more

6:27powerful to break down concentrated corporate power so that economic power is local right the people who own the companies that matter to you live in your community in a way where capitalism can work um and you know that's for people for working people >> for people right um and I think the entire um I think the entire debate

6:46right now is not really between right and left anymore it's between worker power and corporate power and and and I don't think that you need to go all the way to a socialist democracy in order to dramatically lift up the power that people should feel as workers in this country. >> I think it feels like you have to

7:07because if it is so we talk about how rotten it is and how deep it is. It almost feels like in order for it to work you almost have to go to the other extreme. That's what I think sometimes it feels like then the reaction and the emotion that you're getting from people

7:21in such a way. Um you identify six cults in the book. You talked about profit, technology, consumption, corruption, credentialism, and globalism. Which one do you think has had the most damage to the American community? >> So it's the first and the last chapter. The the first chapter is the cult of profit. Again, I just believe that you

7:42can measure the value of an economy differently than how much money you're extracting out of workers and out of communities. Um, I think the cult of profit and kind of the cult of efficiency, which is a twin of the cult of profit, the idea that everything should be maximized for profit's sake, um, is um, is probably the most serious,

8:04but everything is downstream of the cult of corruption. um because our politics have been bought. You can't make any changes in the way that the economy is structured. You can't regulate the technology companies. It's hard to take on the cult of profit, the cult of technology, even the cult of credentialism without taking on the that normalization of corruption in our

8:26politics. And that's why I say in the book, this book is not really about political analysis or party analysis. But I say like the Democratic Party should get back to a place where its number one issue is getting big money, billionaire money, anonymous money out of politics because I don't think you can do anything else if you don't fix

8:42that problem first. >> When I look at the cults and I see, you know, like you and you read the book and you see, you know, how you discuss them, I can't help but think, where does racism fit in all of this? because that's that's a part of it too and where we sit right now in our society and we

8:59see some of the policies and issues that are you know coming out of this administration in particular I have to ask where does racism fit in that? >> Yeah. I mean ultimately this book is a is a book about what brings you meaning and purpose in life and and and I argue that that comes primarily from the idea

9:16that you have power in your life. And so the cult of profit steals power from you because you work harder and you don't get ahead. But the entire system of racial oppression in this country from the classroom to the criminal justice system is all about robbing black people of power and agency. Um my first book is

9:37really about this question. I wrote a book called The Violence Inside Us and a lot of that is how violence has been used as the primary means of oppression. But [clears throat] if you want to build a society in which people wake up every day and feel like their actions result in their situation, their standard of living getting better, it's not just

9:58about the cult of profit. Ultimately, it's about the systems of racial oppression and um suppression that are still ve very real today.

10:08>> We you're having a lot of conversations in America about building connection like us being connected to one another. I feel like some of the the the crisis of connection, the the crisis of the common good, us feeling connected, us feeling like we're a part of each other. >> What's the most important thing for you in building connection? Is it finding

10:24tribe or learning to coexist outside of tribe? >> Oh, I think it's learning to coexist outside of tribe. >> Tell me a little bit more about that. >> Yes. So, you know, this country is a miracle, right? that we have been able to govern ourselves in a multicultural, multi-racial, multil-inguistic society and we're constantly getting better and

10:45we have peaks and valleys, but the only way this country sticks together is if you were able to build communities that cross those sets of divides. Um and so you know this book talks about you know for instance how you rebuild institutions where you are more likely to come across

11:06people that are different from you. I think labor unions um are sort of as close to a panacea as you get historically. There's been a lot of racism in labor unions, but they are a place where you're bringing together workers across boundaries where they can find communion and where they can advance a common agenda. So the book is

11:27all about sort of a purposeful strategy to rebuild institutions, the places of gathering, downtowns so that we aren't siloed by tribe. Um we aren't siloed by our politics. We have an opportunity to meet people that are different from us. >> Can I give you a fear? >> Yeah. >> That I want you to take with you when

11:46you leave this room. >> Uh for someone like you who whenever I ask somebody about Chris Murphy, their eyes light up. They like you, Chris. Like even now, you ask your questions, your answers are direct and concise. [laughter] You have politicians on here. >> I do tend to answer questions, >> right? We like you. So that >> not recommended by the political

12:08consultant class, >> right? Um there there's a there's a butt coming. I'm definitely buttering you up for something. There's a fear for a lot of people that everything you just said is [ __ ] Mhm. >> Not that you meant to [ __ ] but that none of that is real. And that this is really what has existed in America for a

12:25long time. What has existed for America a long time is a facade of multiculturalism that was dominated by a vicious and direct uh white supremacist organization, a capitalist organization that has increasingly over generations sought to harvest not just talent but

12:45work, life and sweat from working people. And the moment that we stepped into our actuality and started to litigate this in a loud and robust way that the country threatened to rip itself to shreds. >> That the moment that we said none of this is real. It's not real now. It's never been real. It's always been kind

13:06of us getting the crumbs that were left around the beers of the fat cats. Now we're asking for more and we're seeing that there's no there there. a lot of people feel that way and that is why the country is actually coming apart. What do you say to those people? Okay. So, let me try a a theory on for you. Um,

13:26and maybe it won't fit, but um, >> you know, I I think in a in a in a culture of scarcity where we are all >> scrapping for crumbs that demagogues and scapegoat messages work, right? And that's about the jobs that are being ste stolen by black people, by immigrants,

13:47the fact that gay kids and drag shows are the biggest threat to your community. All of that works when you wake up every day and you feel like your neighbors are competitors, right? Um this is the what what sociologists call the scarcity mindset. And so if your focus is on raising that floor, that's why I say $25 minimum wage, not 17 $15

14:11minimum wage. Um I if you're about bringing power back to workers' lives through the expansion of collective bargaining, does that scapegoating, right, um become less attractive? Are you less likely um to want to explode things if you know that everybody's floor is being raised, white, black, or

14:34Hispanic? Is there something um to um universally more economically powerful human beings that acts as a prophylactic against that explosion you're talking about? Hm. There's only one thing that I can't get my mind around, Chris.

14:55And I'm going to have to try and I do every day. But my core belief that despite everything that you just said that there are some people that just don't want a [ __ ] having [ __ ] right? And it doesn't matter how good they're doing. >> You ain't supposed to have it. >> Yeah. >> There are certain regions in this

15:12country that chose starvation. They chose poverty over being more integrated into the American economic system because they knew that if they did that that they would have to share that wealth with black people. And it's not a problem that you can solve. But the reason why I want to put it in your brain is because >> a lot of the concepts that we're

15:32discussing, capitalism, uh, protecting workers and all of that stuff, those things are going to be things to where you might have to see somebody that's black driving a nice car down your street. And how do we get past some of the things that we're not supposed to talk about to understand that everyone being capitalized on? All the people that are going to jail in my

15:54community where I come from, if those guys were out being productive, if they weren't thrown into the carceral state to work as slaves, we would be better off. And I want to I want to make sure that the people that I actually have some faith in remember that that messaging has to exist, too. >> Yeah. And if you if you look at you know

16:13some of the underlying reasons that we destroyed intentionally the institutions where people find community um it it is it is all a story told through a racial lens. Right. Why why did why did public pools disappear in this country? Public pools were a place where people found >> cuz we would get in the pool today would drain the pool.

16:31>> Right. Right. Exactly. So that's that's the reason the pool one of the primary reason the pools shut down was the idea that white people just were not willing to accept sitting at that pool being in the pool of black people. And so yeah I I and I make I certainly acknowledge in this book that a lot of the reason that

16:46we are here today is because people didn't want to be in institutions where they had to commune with people that were different from them. And I don't know that my theory is right that that if that if you remove that scarcity mindset um then the demagogic messages just don't have as much uh as much

17:08appeal and I acknowledge that that's not and cannot be the only answer. Um but I think there's something to it. I think it's part of the solution. It >> it it almost feels impossible at times. And you discuss the cult of technology. You talk about that and you talk about the loneliness data and how striking it is and I didn't even know the statistic

17:27of how we were spending 60 minutes a day with a friend and now it's 20 minutes a day. And so when you talk about connecting and reaching people, but then people aren't spending time with other people outside of their tribe and they're doing it through technology, social media or whatever it may be. So

17:48then they find the person who's most like them and that's who they connect to and then it causes even more separation and it's like how do we even as social media continues to get bigger and all these different platforms with you know podcast and whatever it may be it almost feels like we're continuing to separate >> podcast what do we do

18:07>> well we're not like that but but I'm just saying there's so much of it out there that it almost feels like we're continuing to separate from one another rather than connecting to each other outside of tribes and coming together it almost feels impossible. What would you say to that? And you do discuss. Yeah, I mean listen, there is I mean first of

18:25all there's just lots of science that says um virtual connection is just fundamentally different than in person connection that there is something different that happens in our brains when we are sitting with people when we're able to touch them smell them right and you know I think that's the most important thing is that you have to prevent us from getting into a world in

18:46which we think virtual connection is a substitute for in-person connection but yes of course the algorithms are going silo you and the algorithms are going to feed your prejudices. And so if you don't have some mechanism by which to control for the sort of negative spirals that will happen there, then all this

19:08technology is going to do is to feed that scapegoating culture. Because listen, we are our biology inside tells us to stick to tribe, right? Our biology tells us to fear others. Like that's that is cultural, that is environmental, but that is also biological >> pro-evolutionary. >> It's ev right. It's evolutionary, right? That's how you survive, right? As a

19:29species without fangs and horns, whereas you just stuck close to the people you thought were your family and you just sort of guessed that everybody else was a threat. >> So, um, the technology is feeding that biology, which is why, you know, I think you've got to take some really, um, dramatic steps. Like I think you have to

19:48sort of treat that algorithm as a poison um for kids and the only way that they're ever going to get a chance as adults to really understand the value of inerson connection is to just say they can't have it until they're a certain age. Um the technology companies obviously hate that idea. >> This question for you, cultural or

20:07political? Is this something that we teach people or would you legislate this? >> I mean I think it's more political than we want to believe. I mean we we made every time a new big technology came around in the last you know 75 years we immediately saw regulation as a means to get the good stuff and not get the bad

20:25stuff right nuclear technology advanced medicines even the telephone this is the first technology that we've just like said [ __ ] it we're hands off so to me we have always been able to kind of moderate the rough edges of new technologies through through regulation um and and and let's I do want to like bring it a little bit back to the

20:45conversation we were just havinging. Um the corrosive influence of the technology has and often has um a deeper impact in low-income communities um because you have parents that are working 70 hours. They end up relying on the technology in order to um keep the

21:05the kids occupied. Um, you know, in my neighborhood in the south end of Hartford, you know, the the parents and grandparents are really not super interested in the kids running around outside because of the threats that exist. And so the technology becomes an even deeper crutch in those lower inome communities. So I I I think we have a

21:25you know an obligation to every kid but in particular lower inome kids where the technology ends up um babysitting um because you know just the the numbers don't allow for parents to be around as

21:38much. >> The book has a has parts of a personal narrative and you dedicate it to your sons y >> in the book. Why did you decide to dedicate the book to them? And what was the most uncomfortable thing that you had to put on page about yourself? >> It's definitely not a memoir, right? I mean, you saw there's not much of me in

21:58there. >> Um, so yeah, obviously I think that um if we don't take on these cults, even if you beat the Republicans in this midterm, it's just not going to fit the bill. And I and I do think that the the social media and AI are existential threats. And I have no idea what job our kids are

22:17going to get if we don't figure out a way to slow the job destruction. But I also don't know what what will be left of humanity if um we outsource to the technology conversation and friendship and creativity. I just I don't know what's left for them of their soul at the end of that. I it's probably the

22:37last story in the book that's been the hardest one for me. So, I've been talking about loneliness for four or five years. And the obvious question that every like reporter asks me when they're doing a story on why Chris Murphy is talking about loneliness is like, "What's your experience with loneliness?" And I think I was in denial

22:52for a while about how lonely this life can be um because very few other people kind of understand what it's like to be in the life. The last story I tell in the book is about a really lonely day for me. My wife and I just separated and I was um it was Thanksgiving morning and my kids were with her down in DC and I

23:13was doing what most a lot of lonely people do. I was sitting in my house by myself that morning just scrolling on my phone and I was just getting lonier and sadder. And I finally just decided to put down the phone because I knew that there was this family on Thanksgiving morning that normally handed out donuts and coffee to the homeless on the green

23:30where where I live. And so I went over there and I just spent like I don't know 30 minutes, 60 minutes helping them hand out stuff and it was like magic. Like sadness didn't totally lift. I was still sad that my kids weren't there. But I had a pep in my step like walking away from having just

23:47engaged in this act of selflessness. And I I I definitely am not somebody that like readily shares like my personal narrative and you know my personal hurts you know in a political context. But I wanted to end the book with that because that was a moment where I recognized that everybody has the ability um to sort of force your way into connection.

24:09It's not all up to government. So that was probably the hardest story to write because I don't I don't normally weave a lot of that stuff into the way that I talk about politics, >> but it resonates. >> Yeah. Hopefully

24:20>> we need more personal stuff to Do you think there's a specific issue with the male loneliness epidemic that you hear people talking about like young men not being able to find connection? >> Yes. Because and what's happened in the last 50 years is radical, right? I mean for thousands of years, men by birth had

24:41a natural way to identify themselves and define their purpose, right? I mean you were bread winner, you were protector and you had a um genetic position of primacy in the economy, the culture and the politics. And while the patriarchy still lives, you do not have that automatic identity any longer. You do

25:03not have that automatic sense of purpose. And for young men, I I think it's been catastrophic to try to figure out what is that new way that I identify myself. So, you know, this book talks a lot about power, right? About an economy where you as a worker feel power. Again, that's why I love talking about unions.

25:22I think that's particularly important for for men um because they have had rightfully their automatic power taken from them, >> but it's hard to go, you know, in one generation from a way of thinking of your identity to something totally new. So, if you're delivering them more economic power in their lives through

25:43higher wages or collective bargaining or the deconstruction of corporate power, I think you're feeling you're you're filling an immediate gap. That's a very real one for young men. >> There are some people that feel like the conversation is centering men in a way uh that's unfair to everyone else. We have this conversation here and it seems like we're having a conversation about

26:02the male loneliness epidemic and we're sometimes using that conversation to excuse bad behavior by young men who aren't taking proper responsibility for their actions. I'm mad. I'm upset. I'm lonely. Patriarchy died. What do I do now? I can't make the football team. Now I got to go out and hurt somebody. What do you say to people that say that?

26:21>> Yeah. I I hope that's not what we're doing. And I hope that you can acknowledge the crisis that a lot of men and young men are going through without excusing their bad behavior. I I worry right that, you know, for the last 10 years, the right has had a very easy answer to the masculinity identity crisis, which is just we're just rolling

26:41it back. We're just we're just rolling it back. We're going back 50 years, 100 years. We're putting you back in charge. And the left's answer has kind of been get over it. Like get over it. like you you you enjoyed this position of primacy for thousands of years and it's gone and figure it out. That's one answer, but I

27:00don't think it's the responsible answer. I think you actually have to do some work um part of it in the public sector to give men and young men a healthier conception of um of masculinity.

27:16>> What does it feel like to be a senator right now in 2026? cuz you write this book and it's pretty much diagnosing what broken America and you sit in the Senate and sometimes you know we watch it and it feels like these it's broken as well and do you feel like as you sit here >> it's definitely broken.

27:36>> It's definitely broken. >> Try to be nice. >> Yeah. No, it's broken. >> It's it's broken. It's broken. >> It's fine. It's broken as well. You sit in it. You're a member of it. How do you feel like as you sit here in 2026 in a broken system that you feel still feel like it works and it can be fixed?

27:51>> Well, I mean, honestly, I mean, that's that's the the answer to why I wrote the book was that I just was sitting in it and coming to the conclusion that we couldn't fix it without fixing the culture, right? That we and that we had to have a conversation about fixing the politics, getting billionaire money out of politics, all the rest, while also

28:10addressing what was broken in the culture. I guess why I keep coming back for more is that I still have seen it work. Okay. >> Like it's fundamentally broken. You are right. But I've seen it work. So, you know, after, >> you know, the shooting in Sandy Hook, um, you know, my life became about gun violence and I helped build this

28:32movement for 10 years. And then after Yuvaldi, we had a little period of time where we were able to write a bill. We wrote a bill. We got it signed by the president. It had five major changes in gun laws. a lot of money for neighborhood antiviolence initiatives. And since we passed that bill, nobody really knows this, but gun violence

28:48rates have been coming way down. Way down, like 15% reductions every year. >> They they don't know it because no one's talking about it. >> Nobody's talking about it. >> Nobody's discussing the fact, and I think that there's reasons why you just godamn it triggered me, Chris Murphy. Right. >> I think one of the reasons why we're not

29:05discussing this is because in places that were uh scapegoed and made examples of these tremendous gun violent gun violence issues like Chicago, like Baltimore, like New Orleans, like places like that where the violence is actually sharply dropping and declining. Those places have black mayors

29:27>> and they have constituencies made up of people who are black and are doing the interventions that are necessary to save their communities. And that doesn't really look good for a lot of the mainstream media and particularly this president to put his arms around Brandon Scott to put his arms around some of these people and go great job. This is

29:46coming down in these different blue cities. It doesn't fit their narative. There's a cultural reason why we're not talking about the fact that gun violence is going down and some of this stuff is working. >> Yeah, I think that's I think that's right. And if you really try to dig into why the rates are coming down, the

30:01changes we made in gun laws, they definitely mattered. But what really has happened is that mayors and community leaders have figured out how to do this antiviolence programming, right? Wrapping services around kids, going to the emergency room to stop the retributive cycles of violence. It really is um local communities um that

30:22have figured out how to do this work. Now we're funding it for the first time from the federal government. But yeah, I mean obviously this this country has been willing and enthusiastic about just blinding themselves to the reality of um violence in black neighborhoods and in our cities. And you're probably right

30:43that our refusal to see the good news is just an extension of our refusal to see the bad news and of course only wake up as a nation when a group of white kids in New Town, Connecticut got shot. And as someone who whose whose story on gun violence is rooted in that in that tragedy, I also completely understand

31:05how unacceptable it is that it was that tragedy rather than the tragedy that was happening every single day in New Haven and Hartford and Bridgeport um that decided that that turned us all into crusaders on this. >> Um what's your favorite comic book? >> Comic book. >> What's your favorite comic book? your

31:26favorite story tale? What's when you when you're Fantasy Land and Chris Murphy when you're watching like what's your favorite like superhero growing up or anything like that? >> Oh, well I mean I'm I'm definitely like a like a a Star Wars kid, right? Yeah. Yeah. So I was so Yeah, I was born in 73, right? So Star Wars comes out right

31:44at the point where you're in the middle of that that zeitgeist. Um so that's that's that's probably the biggest part

31:51of my >> Okay, so Star Wars, I ask you a question. Who do you blame for the rise of Emperor Palpatine? Do you blame the Sith, Emperor Palpatines's Dark Force Jedi cult that he is a part of, right, for taking over? Or do you blame the Jedi,

32:12Yoda, Mace Wendu, Qui-Gon Jinn, uh even our beloved Obi-Wan Kenobi for not realizing that Senator Palpatine was a Sith Lord? Which one do you blame? >> Well, you've got, you know, you in the in the in the broader Star Wars universe, you've got exploitation,

32:33right, at at scale, right? Right. Happening. Um, and so the Jedi weren't focused on the underlying dynamics, right, that give rise to someone who comes along and says, you know, just put me in charge, right? I'll fix everything, right? It's a all all of

32:53a sudden the Republic gets fragile and hard to maintain when the Jedi aren't paying attention to the destruction of the of of the shared prosperity that makes a republic possible. >> Absolutely. So, with us having established that, isn't it fair that since we're living under the Empire that we blame Jedi who are asleep at the

33:15will? >> Mhm. >> As much as we blame the evil of Palpatine and Darth Vader. >> That's what the book's about, man. I'm just making sure. It's like we we we all Republicans and Democrats [snorts] let us slide into a world where people are feeling shitty and lonely and powerless

33:35because we were made to believe a set of things that weren't true that really were just an excuse for a bunch of rich people to get richer. And so our culture became really fragile which allowed for a potential empire to take root. Now, I got one for you off that. You said recently

33:56>> a Star Wars movie, by the way. She called out. >> You said recently that Biden should have dropped out earlier. >> Mhm. >> My question is, why didn't you say it then? Because it's stuff like that that makes me feel like the Jedi were asleep at the well. That they cared more about

34:16business as usual than they did about actually defending people. >> Yeah. I mean, it was it was a mistake, right? I think a lot of us had spent I mean, just to be honest, like I think a lot of us had spent time with him privately where we did see a guy. >> So that's true. You're telling us that's

34:33true. That that whole behind closed doors he can do a black flip [ __ ] You're telling us that that that that's actually >> I'm not saying that he was the same guy that he was when I met him 15 years earlier, but I'm saying that we didn't see we we saw different things behind closed doors. Um I think there was also

34:51for somebody like me who wanted to see kind of a more robust populism, wanted to see a president take on um consolidated corporate power. you starting to do that? >> And so I was, you know, I think a lot of us were just loyal to the guy because we thought he had done the right things and he had helped us pass some pretty

35:11serious legislation, including the gun violence bill. But I make the case in this book that one of the things that's plaguing the country is the tribal nature of our politics in which so many of us now define ourselves by our politics. We don't define ourselves by maybe our gender or the place we live. We define ourselves by our politics. And

35:32I think as as politics becomes more of our core identity. Um we are less likely to look um our to look at our leaders and ask hard questions. That's what's happening on the right. Um you you identify yourself as MAGA and so you're just not willing to question the leader because that would cause you to question your entire identity. And I think that

35:53happened on the left as well, which is probably part of the reason that we didn't ask harder questions about whether Biden could carry the the banner. >> So then, how as voters and constituents, when you make a confession like that, and you're not the only one, how do we you guys then reconnect with us to to build trust back in the party, back in

36:16politicians? Because it does feel like that loyalty wasn't just to Biden. it felt like it was to an institution. So, how do you how do you rebuild that? How do you reconnect? >> Yeah. Part I mean, part of it, I think, is just admitting you made the mistake. That's >> um I do think that that's a start. Um

36:34but second is being, you know, committed to tearing down the institutions. And that's just I'm not sure that our party is there. And I I I make this argument in the book that um you know in the end as much as I don't quarterback Kla Harris's campaign she ended the campaign with Mark Cuban and Liz Cheney people

36:56who were very much part of establishments that let us down instead of finishing the campaign attacking those establishments. We don't make getting billionaire and private money out of politics our number one issue because we're kind of addicted to that money too. And so I think people look at us and they say, "Well, if you're not

37:16proposing things that are going to destroy the existing corrupt parts of the system, then even if you do a couple Mayakulpas like on Joe Biden, it just doesn't seem serious to to me." Um, which is why I think the Democratic Party just has to be bolder in the ways that we tell people if we win power, we're going to

37:37fix the ways in which our politics are aligned to listen to only the powerful and rich people. >> Yeah. Because then what happens is people take advantage of it and then you have Spencer Pratt running for mayor. >> Tough. Yeah. >> Um, I heard that slight criticism of Kla Harris's campaign. I could I could like Rachel. I'm surprised Rachel didn't get

37:55you. Can't believe you said that right in front of her face. But I don't know if you know this, Chris.

37:59Kamla Harris is in a different sorority than Rachel. >> No, [laughter] >> she's an aka Rachel's a Delta. So Rachel, you have to learn this stuff. >> But you're still a But you're still a die hard. >> I mean, >> I'm I mean, I'm a Delta for life. But there's a there's a little bit of like a

38:18them versus us. >> These are the things when when you run for president, what you're going to do when you like when when you run for president. I love you know what I love? That's my favorite one. >> What's that? Of all the lies that politicians tell, my favorite one is we've had Shapiro up here. He's gone.

38:35We've had you up here. You're gone. We've had >> Newsome. >> Newsome up here. Gone. [laughter] >> Like like he's like gone. Like gone. We've had Ro up here. >> Going. Like we need to have a couple of ladies up here that go. All of you guys are going. We know that you're going. I'm telling you right now when you do it

38:56uh like just learn the divine nine black sororities and fraternities. >> Yeah, it's important. >> Yeah, because like that'll be a way I'm just telling you right now that'll be a way you come out here and you go, "Yeah, I'm sharp today. I'm dressed up like a kappa." >> Oh, but I and and watch all of the

39:14goddamn dress up like a kappa. >> But if I screw it, but like there's got to be a big downside if you screw it up. Right. Exactly. This is like high high risk, high reward. learn the names. >> There's something else you could do. You could come out and you could be like, "Hey, the government owes you $14

39:28trillion. We're going to pay it back to

39:30you." And then, but that would take actually real movement. I I want to ask you um a question. So, just off that, there's a there's a thought that you are one of the bright shining stars. You Oaf uh AOC, you know, the the the Waro Georgia might have two different guys to like, you know, in the situation. Yeah.

39:52>> Are we overly focused on the executive branch right now because of Donald Trump, the power that he's taken at the executive level is making everyone think that, hey, if we get somebody in there uh that is other than Donald Trump, that we can roll some of these things back. Everyone's obsessed with who's going to run. Your name is in that we know that

40:08you're we know that you're going. You're not going to tell us right now. But, uh, is this taking up too much of the oxygen at a time when we don't have a functional government? >> 100%. No, 100%. And it's it is it is also just a function of you know how politics is covered today. I mean people

40:25like competitions right they like horse races and you know generation or two ago um not everything in the media was being driven for profit. There was a belief that you had a social obligation to cover what was important. And yes the horse race was important but it wasn't the only thing that was important. And so, you know, in an old media landscape

40:46where profit didn't drive every decision, where clicks didn't drive every decision, there was more energy given to things like legislation, right? Um, and there's just no room for that today because people want to know about the about the horse race. That's that's that's what drives drives clicks. >> But some of that is, you know why I want

41:06to know? Because I don't want 2024 to happen. So, some of that is just fear. Like we want to know those things because we want to know that we're headed in the right direction. >> And I and and listen, you will not you're not going to believe me, but like I honestly don't [clears throat] know what I'm gonna do. Um

41:20>> we love that. [laughter] >> I don't. But I but and somebody another person who read this book said, "I actually think you're not running for president because if you were running for president, you would write a different book than this, right? You would have written a book about yourself, >> right? And I wrote this kind of weedy

41:37feely book about this underlying spiritual rot that's happening in the country. And I did that because I'm just worried we're not having that conversation. And so maybe the thing that felt best to me was that a couple of the people that you listed who are definitely running for president [laughter] um you know texted me after the book

41:56came out and they were like listen you know we got to find a way to talk about this stuff and I've read part of the book and I'm going to try to find a way to you know use some of that language. So you know I I don't know what I'm going to do but in the end I whoever is

42:09going to run in 2028 has to talk about sp politics through a spiritual lens. How does it make you feel? Right? And our best communicators on the left historically from Martin Luther King Jr. to RFK >> um >> the original uh have communicated in spiritual terms how politics can lift

42:30you up, make you feel happier, more powerful, feel more meaning in your lives. And we've become kind of a technocratic party in which we just talk about how this policy solution is going to lead to this additional income in your life. That's not, I think, how people think every day. Um, they live life emotionally. They live life

42:50metaphysically and they want a politics that meets them there. This episode is brought to you by Comcast Business. Hey, Thought Warriors. Are you a small business owner? Introducing total solutions advantage only from Comcast Business. Combining the largest, fastest fibered network gig speeds with equipment and security included, plus

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43:28fees extra. Uh last question for me. I know Rachel's got to go. Um yeah, just joking. Uh last question. Um there is a a cohort of people that we talk a lot about. Um I wonder all the time what the Democrats are doing for black women because black women are the

43:52Democrats most loyal base. The most loyal base that they have. I specifically also am concerned about what the party is offering black men. I wonder what they're doing for black women and what they're offering black men. I increasingly hear from people who now

44:12have statistics, they have data, they have their eyes, they have their experiences and they are wondering for two or three generations of Democratic leadership, not that we people haven't gotten stuff, they have they've gotten a host of legislation that uh actually in the 60s made them full citizens and then after that they got lot there's been

44:34stuff but it doesn't seem like there's ever been a plan for addressing systemic inequality, addressing historic harm, and just the full cultural adoption of black people as Americans. I'm a [ __ ] American. Like, my people are from South Louisiana. >> Mhm. >> And they bled and tilled the soil so I

44:56could be sitting here talking to you. And I don't feel like my country or the Democratic Party or anybody else gives a [ __ ] about that. I'm not from anywhere else. I am from here. Everything here. I don't have to ask for anything. I shouldn't have to ask for a police officer not to to address me as sir. I

45:14shouldn't have to ask to to not be discriminated against by all of that. That is bananas to me that we're still having this conversation. What are you guys going to do? Like how do we move forward? What are you offering to black women that vote for you 92% no matter what? What are you offering to black men that want to be

45:31entrepreneur entrepreneurs and leaders in their society? What are you guys offering? Well, I mean, first of it, f first of all, I I think it is really important for us to be fiercely patriotic um in a way that explains um the ability of America to be multicultural,

45:51multilingual, multi-racial, multi-religious. And we have kind of seated the patriotism narrative to the right. That's a choice. and we can explain the America we want to live in um with a patriotism that commands us to break down those barriers. Um but one of the

46:12reasons I talk a lot about concentrated corporate power is that if you choose to have an economy that is dominated by a very small handful of companies then you are never giving the ability for black entrepreneurs male or female to be able to succeed. All those companies that dominate our economy today, they are run

46:33by white guys. Their boards are almost all white. The only way that you are going to have real black entrepreneurship again in this country is to just destroy the control that those folks have at the top. We made obviously a bunch of really good runs at civil rights reform in the wake of

46:53George Floyd and it was hard and we get it didn't get it done and we kind of stopped trying. Mhm. >> got spooked. >> We got we we kind of stopped trying and >> and it came from inside your cohort. It was a couple it was a senator from West Virginia and another one from Arizona that wouldn't vote for this stuff and

47:10did and you you guys allowed some bad actors inside of your own party to stop a lot of this stuff from moving forward. A >> and so people notice, black women, black men notice that we stopped trying. And so and and and I also worry that sometimes our set of work here gets

47:30limited to the issue of voting rights which is super important of course or criminal justice >> but what's happening yeah but we but we don't we have not talked about criminal justice reform as much as we used to in the last few years. Um but it's even deeper than that. I mean the the the most work that I've done in this space

47:47is around what's happening in our schools, right? I I mean the um that schoolto prison pipeline, the way that school discipline is used to target black boys in particular um is an absolute abomination. And that is actually, you know, one of the primary experiences that black women have is watching their sons be treated

48:09fundamentally differently in the school discipline process than others are. That's a real life daily experience um that we um that we could lift up. Um it's frankly in some ways easier to tackle than the what's happening in the criminal justice system because we actually have examples of schools that

48:30when they pulled the school resource officers out of the schools, put them back onto the streets, um the school discipline rates and the disparities dropped. So, we have to be um caught trying. Um, we have to build a narrative about American patriotism that is um, fiercely inclusive. And then I think we

48:50have to explain that the changes we're talking about in the economy are all about giving the ability for everybody to have that American dream, that business that they start, that business that thrives. But that's a particularly important narrative for black America. >> It's a good way to end it. >> Got it. Chris Murphy, Senator from Connecticut. You know, you know, I I

49:10just before you go, I want to say something. You know, I like to watch the Sunday shows. I don't know why. I'm like a masochist like that. I like to get up and I watch all of Face the Nation. I watch all of Meet the Press. >> Sounds unnecessary. >> I just like it. You know, they put you

49:26wake up and it's there's Mark Way Mullen on there [laughter] >> and and I just don't know how the [ __ ] some of these people got to where they are. I'm I don't mean to be a dick about it, but sometimes I watch stuff and I am amazed. It makes me look down on myself like could I have been more? Could I have

49:45done more? Because I sometimes I watch particularly on the Sunday shows like they don't do long sit downs but particularly on these shows I'm watching this I want you to just make sure don't make a fool out of yourself Chris [laughter] like when you go like when you go that is I watch and I am flabbergasted sometimes

50:02>> but that but it's it's a consequence of what skills you need to have today to succeed politically. The two primary skills you need are that your clickbait, right? Um, and clickbait has nothing to do with qualifications to be uh a political leader. And you need to be able to raise money. You need to be you

50:24need to have the kind of hood necessary to call up strangers one after another and ask them for money. And so, you know what? If you're selecting leaders based upon whether they say things that will get clicks and whether they are good telemarketers, you're going to get some [ __ ] weird people who rise to the cream of the crop because neither of

50:44those things have anything to do with the actual questions of merit as to who should be leading. So um all of that is not um unsolvable. Like you could choose to finance campaigns differently. Um, you could choose to re regulate our social media spaces in a

51:04way that those sort of dangerous clickbait messages don't rise to prominence. There are there are ways to fix even those things. >> Thank you for joining us. >> Thanks, guys. Appreciate it. Thank you.