Full transcript
0:04always tucked between two giants, Russia
0:08and China, and rich in oil, gas, and
0:11rare elements, Kazakhstan sits at the
0:14crossroads of global power. Landlocked
0:17in the heart of Central Asia, it shares
0:20the world's longest continuous land
0:22border with Russia and plays a central
0:25role in China's belt and road ambitions.
0:28As the war in Ukraine and shifting
0:30geopolitical dynamics test and even
0:33redefine global alliances, does
0:36Kazakhstan find itself under growing
0:38pressure to pick sides? Or can it really
0:41balance strong relations with China and
0:43Russia with deepening ties with the
0:45West? I'm Sami Zan in Astanau where
0:48President Kam Jam Tokayab once a Soviet
0:51trained diplomat and UN official has
0:54promised reform. A new Kazakhstan built
0:57on justice, inclusion and transparency.
1:00But 3 years on is he delivering. The
1:03president of Kazakhstan Kasim Jamar
1:05Tokay talks to Al
1:11Jazer. President of Kazakhstan Mr. Kasim
1:14Jar Tokay. Thank you so much for talking
1:16to Al Jazzer. It's my pleasure to be
1:19with you. Thank you. So, we're here in
1:22the week in which the Astana
1:24International Forum is presenting
1:25Kazakhstan once again to the world.
1:28Three years on since you unveiled the
1:30reform program. Do you feel you've
1:33delivered the new Kazakhstan that you
1:35promised? Yes, we are in the process.
1:38Frankly speaking, it's not that easy. uh
1:42because there were so many uh
1:45developments outside of uh Kazakhstan
1:48that impacted uh the process of reforms
1:52and covid the war in Ukraine. Yes,
1:55absolutely. And I believe that uh it's
1:58not that easy. We must be frank, we must
2:01be pragmatic but at the same time we
2:04need to be very much bold as far as our
2:07reforms are concerned. That's why I am
2:10telling my people that uh we should be
2:14very much firm uh with regard to
2:17achieving all goals that have been put
2:20in our agenda. Yes, the process is still
2:23going on, but it's a very positive one.
2:25Looking at your foreign relations, sir,
2:28is Kazakhstan going through a process of
2:31rethinking some of its foreign
2:33partnerships, rebalancing some of its
2:36trading
2:37relationships like the middle corridor
2:40project in order not to be too reliant
2:43too close on any one great power. First
2:46of all, I wouldn't say so that we are
2:50making some uh reforms with regard to
2:53our uh foreign policy uh because it's a
2:57very conservative uh phenomenon. But at
3:01the same time, of course, we need to
3:03bear in mind what is happening outside
3:05of Kazakhstan. Kalistthan is a pillar of
3:09stability and security in Eurasia
3:13particularly in Central Asia and from
3:17the very beginning we have been pursuing
3:20the policy of uh making balance between
3:24big powers our immediate neighbors but
3:26at the same time promoting our national
3:29goals and that's why uh I wouldn't say
3:32that uh uh we are restructuring the
3:35whole foreign policy
3:37But you were right having mentioned the
3:40middle corridor because for us the
3:43priority is uh to diversify our
3:47transportation links uh with the outside
3:50world and in this respect of course
3:53Transaspian transport route is
3:56absolutely important and uh as you know
3:59we are also great supporter of one belt
4:02one road initiative put forward by
4:05Xinping, chairman of China. And it's not
4:09coincidence that as early as
4:142013, Xiinping announced this initiative
4:18in Astana in the capital of Kazakhstan.
4:21Last year, S&P Global said that about
4:2480% of Kazakhstan's oil flows through
4:27the CPC pipeline to Russia. Is that
4:32something that you think you need to
4:34change? Does it represent a strategic
4:37vulnerability for Kazakhstan? We should
4:40uh bear in mind that Russia
4:44is strategic partner of Kazakhstan, our
4:47immediate neighbor and ally of
4:49Kazakhstan. We share the longest border
4:53with Russia in the world. And of course
4:56uh we count on Russia as our strategic
5:00partner and we count particularly on
5:03CPC. Just recently I had a telephone
5:06conversation uh with President Putin and
5:08we have been talking frankly speaking
5:10about CPC how it's going to be used in
5:13the future and I believe that uh CPC
5:17will be continuously serving as a good
5:20instrument of shipping or transporting
5:24our oil through Russia to the European
5:27market as well as beyond. So you're not
5:30concerned about the the impact of the
5:33war in Ukraine and what that means for
5:35your ability to to send your oil to
5:37Europe through that pipeline? Yes. Uh,
5:39of course we take into account what is
5:42happening in Ukraine, its impact, I mean
5:45the impact of military conflict between
5:48both Russia and Ukraine on our strategic
5:52plans uh with regard to natural
5:54resources and the export to the
5:58international market. At the same time
6:01uh we have a strong belief in our
6:04strategic partnership with Russia but it
6:06doesn't mean that we are focusing only
6:08one transportation route that's why you
6:12were right absolutely mentioning other
6:15routes and uh Baku Jhan pipeline uh
6:20middle corridor but
6:22uh practically speaking in terms of
6:26amount of oil which is being transported
6:31or exported abroad. Still, of course,
6:34the priority is being made on CPC and
6:37should be made on CPC. Right now, the
6:40Astana International Forum is underway.
6:43Is it a sign that Kazakhstan believes
6:46middle powers need to play a bigger role
6:50in upholding the international
6:52multilateral system?
6:55Yes, I strongly believe uh in uh
6:58multilateralism and I strongly believe
7:01that uh it is uh the so-called middle
7:05powers should play a bigger role uh in
7:09safeguarding peace and security in the
7:12world. Do you think sir that sometimes
7:14the great powers might be undermining
7:16the multilateral system? I mean
7:18sometimes we hear rhetoric from some of
7:21the great powers talking about America
7:24first talking about
7:27um the importance of bilateral rather
7:29than multilateral mechanism. Yes, it's
7:31happening now and multilateralism is
7:35faltering. You know that uh the security
7:38council of the United Nations is in
7:41deadlock. it's uh has no power, has no
7:46might to tackle any key international
7:51issue. Is that the threat to the world?
7:53Yes, it's a big threat. It's a big
7:55challenge to the world. That's why I
7:58believe that uh middle powers like
8:01Kazakhstan should play bigger more
8:04important role in tackling and
8:06addressing major international issues
8:09and uh that's why Kazakhstan is strongly
8:14committed to reforming the United
8:16Nations. In the beginning of United
8:19Nations history, there were only 51
8:22states that are being considered as
8:26founding members of the United Nations.
8:28Nowadays, we
8:30have 193 states. We believe that all
8:34states first of all as you said middle
8:37powers should join their efforts in
8:40order to make United Nations more
8:44equitable more eligible uh to the
8:47contemporary world. So along those lines
8:50I'm wondering Mr. President, why then if
8:54Kazakhstan is is seeking to build this
8:56partnership with middle powers, why did
8:59Kazakhstan delay its application to join
9:02bricks last year, I think in October?
9:06I'm very much grateful to those
9:08countries that uh supported our
9:12application to get uh the stereos of an
9:15observer in bricks. But I'm very much
9:18pragmatic and uh what I can see that
9:21there are no fixed structures within
9:24bricks. No charter, no secretariat, no
9:28programs and so on. Are you worried that
9:31it's not an effective organization or
9:33are you worried that Kazakhstan might be
9:36seen as too close to some powers like
9:39China and Russia and you want to balance
9:41your relationships with the west as
9:43well? First of all, it's about the
9:46proposed efficiency or effectiveness of
9:49the organization. Yes. Uh there are big
9:52powers, there are middle scale powers,
9:56small powers in each international
9:59organization. It does happen and it's a
10:01reality of the world. But uh let's first
10:05of all see whether BRIX is going to be
10:09efficient enough as a very well promoted
10:14and proclaimed international
10:16organization and that's why I said that
10:19okay at least on the first stage we are
10:23going to
10:24be observer in bricks and then time will
10:29show. So you don't have a date in mind
10:31for when you might reactivate your
10:33application to join? No, we have no such
10:36plans. Uh we have been fixed as a
10:39observer state in BRICS and I believe
10:42that it's quite enough. Looking at some
10:44of your bilateral trade, China is a very
10:47important trading partner for
10:49Kazakhstan. I think the figures a couple
10:51of years ago spoke of $31 billion in
10:55trade with China. Trade with the US much
10:58smaller but it increased in 2023 by
11:0332%. Is Kazakhstan trying to catch up to
11:06balance its trade between key trading
11:09partners and global powers? First of
11:11all, I would like to mention that uh it
11:14is the European Union is a big
11:18international entity is number one trade
11:22partner of Kazakhstan and last year our
11:26trade volume reached $50 billion. The
11:29second one is China and our trade volume
11:34with China
11:36exceeded 45 billion dollar. And the
11:40third trade partner of Kazakhstan is
11:43Russia. We have trade of 27 billion.
11:50As to the United States, we put focus
11:54and priority on attracting investments
11:58from the United States. First of all,
12:00our trade volume is not that big, only
12:03four billion dollars, but at the same
12:06time, we export
12:10uranium, oil, and
12:13chrome to the American market. And I
12:17think that uh it's a strategic
12:19partnership, strategic trade between
12:22both Kazakhstan and the United States.
12:26Unfortunately, recently US
12:28administration has put high tariffs on
12:31our export. Uh but we are not
12:34dramatizing this trend and I believe
12:36that this decision and I believe that
12:39it's a matter of further negotiations.
12:41All right, coming to some more domestic
12:45economic issues. During your tenure, GDP
12:49has expanded in in Kazakhstan around 55%
12:54between 2019 and
12:572024, but wealth distribution is still a
13:00challenge. Data from the World
13:02Inequality Database shows the wealthiest
13:051% still controls almost 30% of the
13:09nation's assets while 50% holds less
13:14than
13:145%. How do you plan to reduce
13:17inequality? How do you plan to speed up
13:21that distribution? You were right saying
13:24that our GDP is increasing. Last year uh
13:28it reached
13:30290 billion dollars and in terms of per
13:33capita we are number one in this part of
13:36the world. Our GDP is the largest one in
13:39Central Asia but of course we are not
13:42complacent and you were right mentioning
13:45the distribution of wealth in
13:47Kazakhstan. It's a matter which is
13:50concerning me as a president. Has it not
13:54moved as fast as you would have liked it
13:56to have have moved? Yes. Uh what what
13:59held it back? What stopped you from
14:01moving as quickly as you wanted to? So
14:03many negative factors outside of
14:06Kazakhstan in the very beginning of our
14:08talk. We have mentioned some of them and
14:12then there are some also natural
14:13impediments and that's why I was hoping
14:16that the economic growth of Kazakhstan
14:18will reach at least 5 and a half% this
14:22year. uh it's going to be so we predict
14:25that at least it will be over than 5%
14:30but it's not that
14:33ambitious that uh we have been looking
14:35for and uh that's why my government is
14:40looking for uh some additional uh
14:43sources of economic growth and uh as I
14:47said uh we have four priorities first of
14:51all huge infrastructure ual projects,
14:54then digitalization and artificial
14:57intelligence, and then agriculture, and
15:00then transport and logistics. And I
15:04believe that the goals will be reached
15:07within my presidency, which is going to
15:11be expired in 2029.
15:15And uh we just uh both mentioned the
15:18problem of just distribution of national
15:22wealth. It's a big problem and that's
15:25why I put forward a concept of building
15:30a fair
15:32Kazakhstan or fair and just Kazakhstan.
15:35You know fairness is in great deficit
15:38not only in Kazakhstan but in so many
15:41countries in so many corners of the
15:43world. It's a global phenomenon and
15:45challenge right now phenomenon and
15:47that's why we are trying to tackle this
15:48problem. Yes, it does exist. I
15:51acknowledge. I'm curious because you
15:52mentioned so by
15:542029 you hope to grow I think these
15:57nonhydrocarbon sectors and right now I
16:00think the hydrocarbon sectors they
16:03account for over 50% of Kazakhstan's
16:06exports. Do you think you can achieve a
16:09rebalance of that or achieve a situation
16:12where your non-hydrocarbon exports are
16:16the majority by 2029?
16:19Yes,
16:20hydrocarbon export frankly speaking
16:24still will be a majority of our trade to
16:29the international market. We should be
16:32pragmatic
16:34continuously be pragmatic and I said
16:37that uh Kazakhstan is going to become a
16:41nonhydra carbon country uh in 2060. It's
16:47a quite I think very much pragmatic and
16:51I would say a
16:52modest program based on what we do have
16:57and on what we are going to have coal in
17:01our inner or domestic energy balance
17:05accounts for
17:0773%. We cannot give up coal just
17:11overnight. We have natural resources
17:14like oil. In terms of producing uranium,
17:19we are number one in the world. 40% of
17:22the world market belong to Kazakhstan.
17:27Related to the IT industry, sir, and the
17:30digital infrastructure, you've made
17:33progress. You've established more than
17:3520,000 kilometers of fiber optic lines.
17:38You've established the Astana hub
17:41boosting IT exports to over $280 million
17:45in
17:462023, but there still are challenges.
17:49How can you address bureaucratic hurdles
17:53to startups, a shortage of specialists
17:55in some cases and low research and
17:59development spending?
18:02Yes, it's uh also one of our problems
18:06which is on the agenda. But at the same
18:08time, we have made a big progress. First
18:10of all, we have made or produced our
18:15smart computer which has been delivered
18:18recently uh to Kazakhstan in close
18:21cooperation uh with well-known foreign
18:25companies and we are very much grateful
18:28uh to them being our strategic partners
18:30in this very important case and as I
18:33said
18:34digitalization is our priority and uh my
18:39dream is that
18:41Kazakhstan someday later will become a
18:44fully digitalized country bureaucracy by
18:48when sir when when is the target date
18:50for that I think that uh it's in five
18:53years in five years in five years it's
18:55absolutely possible and uh you just uh
18:59been talking about bureaucracy it does
19:01exist in Kalistan as well as in so many
19:04countries and digitalization is one of
19:09most efficient instruments to tackle
19:11this problem digitalization and
19:14artificial intelligence. Nobody knows
19:17what will be the end of this story. And
19:21in this context I've already made a
19:25statement on the margins of the
19:27international forum here that in the
19:31context of
19:33developing very speedy development of
19:36artificial intelligence in the world
19:38this kind of
19:40conflicts wars between states look very
19:45much outdated.
19:47We must put focus on artificial
19:50intelligence, digitalization, put focus
19:54on
19:55developing, on uh giving education to
19:58the younger generation, put focus in
20:01enlightening
20:02uh our people, bringing them forward in
20:07development, but not being engaged in
20:10military conflicts, killing each other.
20:13It's very much outdated. It's very much
20:15primitive. I would say since we're
20:16talking about how to address and
20:19rebalance the wealth, you've made
20:22progress in dismantling some of the
20:24privileges held by the elites of the
20:26former uh leader Nur Sultan Nazarbayv.
20:30You've conducted investigations. There's
20:33been convictions for embezzlement.
20:36You've recovered $1.2 billion, I think,
20:39in
20:412022. Sir, is there more work to be
20:43done? Some critics could say some of the
20:46key institutions of the Nazerbayv
20:50network haven't come under so much
20:52scrutiny like the Nazerbaya fund, the
20:55Hal Bank and so on. What would you say
20:57to that sir? Oh, of course there is a
21:00criticism of what we are doing here, but
21:03we have done a lot of things very much
21:06positives things for the benefit of our
21:10people of our society. And of course, we
21:13should acknowledge a historical role of
21:16President Nazerbay who came out to be
21:20the first one in our modern history.
21:23Yes, there were mistakes, embezzlements
21:27as you have said and we have been
21:30investigating and this process is going
21:32on. But at the same time, I'm not going
21:35to make a mess here in Kazakhstan uh
21:38because it would lead to the
21:40destabilization of the situation in my
21:43country. Do you look sometimes sir other
21:45countries and say we need to learn about
21:49the speed of reform? Is that a real
21:51worry for you?
21:53Yes. First of all to take lessons what
21:56is happening in so many countries. First
21:58of all in China, in Russia, in many
22:01countries and stability, inner stability
22:06is my first priority. You should
22:09understand that without stability there
22:12will be no reforms, no modernization, no
22:15transformation of our society. The
22:17Organization for Security and
22:19Cooperation in Europe, which observed
22:21the 2023 parliamentary elections did
22:24acknowledge political reforms,
22:27amendments that you've made to increase
22:29voter choice to bring Kazakhstan closer
22:32to international standards, but they say
22:35more reform is needed, particularly on
22:38some of the restrictions on freedom of
22:39assembly and campaigning, the need for
22:42people to obtain or the right of Akimat
22:46the mayors is to refuse some outdoor
22:49campaigning events on a broad list of
22:52grounds. Do you believe some of those
22:54restrictions need to be lifted, sir? No,
22:57I don't believe so. And our laws uh are
23:00quite democratic. Kazan as a whole in
23:05nature essentially is a democratic state
23:10and we have done a lot uh to make it so.
23:14So I don't care about estimations made
23:17by
23:18OC because it's a very much biased
23:23organization. Uh but at the same time we
23:26are committed to having close
23:28cooperation with the UIC institutions
23:31and we are quite an active member state
23:35of this organization and we hosted the
23:37summit in 2010 the last one. So this
23:42organization has no summits for 15
23:46years. So we should judge uh from this
23:50very fact whether the OC is a an
23:53efficient organization. But once again I
23:56don't care about those evaluations. Uh I
23:59would say that they are unbiased. Okay.
24:02What how about the process for
24:04registering opposition groups? You've
24:06made a lot of reforms. You've allowed
24:09for the first time uh legalized
24:12opposition parties. You've set a limit
24:15on the presidential term for the first
24:17time. Some of the international human
24:19rights groups like human rights watch
24:21are calling for a change in the
24:23registration process that sometimes
24:25delays. They give an example of for
24:28example Alga Kazakhstan. It's been
24:30rejected 24 times. Does that need some
24:33reform? Sir, I don't believe so because
24:36uh I'm promoting my own strategy which
24:39is called law and order. We have fixed
24:45our laws in full compliance with the
24:48international standards. I don't believe
24:50that we should follow recommendations of
24:53human rights organizations nowadays. We
24:56know who or which countries have been
25:00financing them. We know that there are
25:03so many cynical people uh who have been
25:06working or engaged or employed in these
25:09organizations and once again they are
25:12not unbiased. Uh they don't want to
25:16understand the historic background
25:18political mindset of the people's they
25:20just give recommendations but I won't
25:23say that all countries including
25:25Kalistan should blindly follow those
25:29recommendations. First of all, we should
25:32think about our national strategies that
25:36must be properly delivered for the
25:39benefit of our countries and first of
25:41all of my country. I'm just saying as
25:44president of Kazakhstan and of course
25:46you are doing a reform process but so do
25:49you think that that reform needs to
25:52widen when it comes to journalists there
25:55is there are calls by reporters without
25:58borders to remove the necessity of
26:01journalists having to obtain a permit to
26:05to work in Kazakhstan. Do you think that
26:07the reform process needs to look at that
26:09or at some of the laws on promotion of
26:13extremism where human rights groups site
26:16sometimes the use of those laws and
26:18criminal charges against journalists
26:20against opposition figures? What do you
26:23say to that sir? I think that we have
26:26close connections with all journalists
26:29whether they represent the so-called
26:31opposition forces or uh those who are
26:35supporting our strategy. So our attitude
26:39is absolutely equal and then of course
26:42uh I'm not saying that uh we have
26:45already stopped all our reforms. The
26:49process of reforms is very much long
26:54steady and uh Kazakhstan is a reformist
26:58country. We will be continuing
26:59continuously doing our reforms and uh
27:02there will be no obstacles and uh my
27:05credo that we should make substantial
27:10reforms for the benefit of Kazakhstan
27:12bearing in mind what we would like to
27:16have say in five years in 10 years and
27:18so on. You just mentioned one-term
27:22presence in Kalistan. It's a huge
27:24reform. It's a huge political reform and
27:27you're committed to respecting that
27:29yourself. Yes. In 2029, I have already
27:31announced that uh I will step down and I
27:34will resign because uh it's a demand of
27:39uh my people and as a personal as a
27:42human being I strongly believe that
27:45president of any country first of all of
27:49my country is a state manager. He's not
27:53a messenger of
27:54God. He's a state manager who has been
27:58hired by his own people in our case for
28:02seven years only. President Kasim Jarat
28:05Tokay, thank you so much for talking to
28:07our vazer sir. Thank you.