Full transcript
0:00yeah the baby implants in the fallopian tube right that's an ectopic pregnancy right correct so then as the baby then grows it then puts the fallopian tube at risk of rupture yeah right which would then put the mother's life at risk right right yeah it's like a 99% change yeah so as far as going in and like removing
0:18the fallopian tube you know in order to save the life of the mother yeah that that unintentionally may result in the death of the child most of the time like 9% of the time the baby dies when they do that right but but that's not you're not wanting that yeah right that's not you're not you're trying to save as many
0:37lives you can right and the baby's in a position where there's not a way to save the baby's life so you're doing what you can to save the life of the mother and it unintentionally causes death of the child it's a really good question and I think that the main issue is when you when you talk about look there's a
0:54there's a baby in a fallopian tube and so we have now two lives at risk right and so like you're showing a good heart to show concern for the mother to say look she could die and the baby could die so you got to do something to get in the way to preserve life it's like one life or two exactly and so like you're
1:11we we would say that your your instinct your desire is is right on you're thinking about the preservation of life so the whole thing over that question is the preservation of life right so what's interesting is that and you probably know this being a college campus you may have heard these sorts of things 98% of all abortions statistically consistently
1:29are at will I I want to I want to kill the baby it's in the way it's I want I don't want this in my life whatever the reason is it's it's at will it's with forethought I I know what I'm doing and I'm want to end this pregnancy so what tends to happen is there's a an
1:45emotional argument used used to to sort of prop up the right to to kill your baby and that is well what about rape incest life of the mother so you're bringing up the life of the mother one which actually is one of the lowest parts of the 2% life of the mother the rape and incest one can be answered very
2:02easily uh if she's raped we would say that we shouldn't give capital punishment to the baby we should give it to the rapist so what we should be doing is pursuing a justice system that deals with a very heavy hand with the rapist and coming alongside the woman and the baby to to preserve their lives and to
2:20support them but we shouldn't be uh giving capital punishment and executing the baby uh I have friends who are the products of rape and they are lovely and amazing people and and they would argue that that they're glad that their life wasn't taken as a result of the crime of their father so what we would say is is
2:39is the second point is is incest very small number of abortions are because of the state of thing of incest but again in the case of incest I also have friends that are the products of incests and I don't think we should kill them um and it's a terrible thing for sure but uh but we shouldn't now say okay some
2:57terrible thing has been done let's do something worse and kill the baby the last thing is the one you brought up and that's life of the mother what's amazing about the time that we live in is that the instances where life of the mother is truly at risk or something has to be done where someone comes in to
3:11mediate very aggressively are so infantes small well in terms of when and often times atopic pregnancies and and complications of pregnancy just work themselves out as natural um miscarriages and those sorts of things but you bring a a fantastic point what do you do when it's actually a
3:32situation where the life of the mother is truly at risk and in that case what we're trying to do is work for the preservation of life and we're trying to see two patients we have the baby and the mother and it's similar to a situation where you say there's a car hanging off of a cliff right you've got
3:493 seconds to preserve life you can only ultimately save one what do you do in that case let them both fall off no you preserve the life that you can so what you're referring to with an ectopic pregnancy complication is a rescue operation and those rescue operations happen at hospitals with doctors who are working towards the preservation of life
4:09not the willful unjustified taking of human life so just to put it in more personal terms my wife has had a number of miscarriages um one of them almost oh thank you it's one of them was um a molar pregnancy where we had twins and then there's like basically cancer and it eats up the babies instantly and um
4:29we heard the heartbe and then we came back and then while doing the ultrasound it was okay they both died and your life is now at risk if we allow this to stay inside you so she had to go to the hospital to essentially get a procedure that is similar to an abortion on already dead babies to preserve her life
4:48but where did she go not to PL Parenthood go to a new place that's what I heard like acoptic pregnancies women couldn't not get it removed until it already bursted their fallopian to they literally couldn't because of it's banned in Texas so they weren't able to they had to wait until they got hurt it's a it's a that's a a fiction it's a
5:08mischaracterization of the like I'll give you an example we um we I'm a p my name my's Jeff by the way I'm a pastor this is yeah this is Bradley um well we've we've we've been working to get bills um of equal protection for all human beings uh from fertilization same as you the baby and the wom gets the
5:26same and we've doing that across the country and uh some of the states we've worked in when we've even gotten to the floor to to be voted on um some of the arguments being used against the bill sounded like that they said this this will make women who have miscarriages criminals and it's a complete fiction something that's a natural occurrence
5:44it's it's a it's a painful experience having a miscarriage it's not something someone has to be sought for Justice right it's it's a horrible sad thing if if we're working towards a bill of equal protection for all human beings in a state has has nothing do with miscarriages natural occurrences that are tragic um it has nothing to do with
6:04um saving a life if a woman's life is truly in danger which again this a very small number where it actually is something where the doctors have to actually try to preserve life some life um we're just looking to have equal protection for every human being from fertilization you know and um we we've been here so many times in history and
6:25you're familiar with this so I'm not trying to educate you on this but just in the last 200 years you have the instance in Germany where you had a a class of people that Drew a circle around themselves and said we will be protected we will live but this class of people over here they're parasites it looks like a human being but it's really
6:45a Jew and so we can abuse them we can put them in concentration camps they can feel pain some babies I agree like if it gets to the point where they can feel pain they kind of like even though if they don't always understand what's going on if they can feel pain I don't want to Hur I feel like it's to the point where it's
7:02like right at fertilization it can't feel any pain yet it be the same thing is like stepping on a clump of dead skin cells at that point so can I just respond to that just okay so um because because often times do you know even I would say it's very terrible argumentation from PR lifers Pro lifers
7:23will make that argument too they'll say well the baby can feel pain we have to like not kill it cuz it can feel pain which is a contradiction of Their Own position they say that it's human from fertilization so either it's human or it's not pain capable is is interesting cuz I don't think that you would you
7:37wouldn't reason this way if if say a guy wherever the nearest hospital is here this place is ginormous um if a guy walked into a hospital locally here and all of the patients that are in comas right now and can't feel pain or respond to pain if you went in and killed them and said well your honor they couldn't
7:55feel any pain so it's Comas can feel pain they just can't express it sometimes a baby at that level or can't physically feel pain like there's no mechanism to allow it to feel pain well so if we say that what makes you human is your ability to sense pain feel pain reason um have a working heartbeat then
8:19then what people can do then is start drawing circles around their class and say well we can kill these because it isn't reason as well kill like disabled people for example see you got it you got it so it's it's a question of like for example like one of the great things we have now the arent foran funny enough I heard a similar
8:39argument for veganism well think about this like feel pain and stuff exactly so we live in a time where because Christians and Christian abolitionists work to abolish the slave trade um work so hard for that obviously a terrible War was fought and bloodshed but it was because the Christian abolitionists worked so hard in the culture to say hey
8:58this is against God's word He commands the death penalty for kidnapping and enslaving somebody this is an evil thing that black man is my brother that black woman is my sister in humanity uh we live in a time now where we all look back on that and say What a wicked Abomination it's such an evil thing and
9:14what we see about that is you can't say to that black man or black woman that you're less human than me he's a human being I'm a human being we look different we have differences in our in our biolog make up in terms of more melanin less melanin those sorts of things but we're fundamentally human we're the same so the argument against
9:36the slave trade is that's my brother he's a human being and what what slave owners were saying is Well yeah I mean technically it's the image of God technically it's a human being but it's more it's closer to the level of the Beast you know that's what they were saying so what we're saying is that from all biological science and of course the
9:55biblical worldview from the moment of fertilization what you have is fully human you you probably what are you studying here elri so you've had to take some bi biology courses at some point no science okay well like physics and math but well all all biological science day testifies irrefutably that from the very
10:16moment of fertilization we are you and I are the are the human beings that we are now we were them I mean the whole DNA code everything about you was mapped out at the very instant of fertilization
10:36onlye human right for fertilization that makes sense to me I just think the only thing that's different in my mind is how moral it is to kill it at different stages as it grows I feel like because I'm not Christian I grew up Christian but I'm not Christian anymore but um so I feel like killing a human I
10:57feel like is bad in all cases but I feel like it's like varying levels of bad again still like depending on how formed it is and how long it is especially those who are like all involved like the rape cases you were saying like I agree that the baby shouldn't be like punished for the sins of the father right but
11:15there's some points where it's like a 13-year-old girl uncontent gets raped so now she has to have a baby she didn't want or ask for it's awful thing so it kind of hurts her and the baby could be early on enough that if you killed it it would be immoral to kill human but it wouldn't feel any pain and it doesn't
11:32have a brain yet doesn't have any memory so it wouldn't even know that it was being killed or that it was going to become something or anything yeah you seem to have a very caring heart and so I'll point I'll point this this out to you you're worried about the 13-year-old girl who was victim of rape right like I
11:47think it's bad to kill an infant at all like I agree with that especially it's bad to kill humans I just feel like there's there comes a point to where like it's more logical to kill in specific cases where it can't feel much pain versus the other person that can feel a lot of pain and has to live and
12:06understand know all of that for the rest of their life two things I'll say to you uh and again you you have you seem have a very caring heart so I think you'll probably be able to embrace this easily the first thing is is the girl who's 13 who is raped that that resonates with me very deeply because I that's very close
12:20to me in my life I I I know someone that I love very dearly where that happened to so it means a lot to me to hear that um but she's a victim well we shouldn't say is that we have one victim now let's create two what we should say is this is a fallen world there's evil that happens
12:36in this world we need to support the victim and go after the perpetrator but not create a second victim in your scenario we would create now not just one scenario of victimhood but now a second that actually ends in death so that would be but but one more point on that just just hang on to your point I
12:53don't want you to forget it I forget my sorry I'm going to forget mine too so so the the next thing is is the argument of of well if we allow this life to to grow and and to actually be birth it's going to create complications and difficulties for other life and that other those complications are going to
13:10be so disastrous that it'd be better to end this life to protect these lives same argument used in Germany and in every other instance in history whether it's Stalin ma Paul pot because you know what their arguments were one was like senseless killing well their arguments think about this their arguments of all those regimes of the last 100 years
13:31atheist regimes communist regimes their arguments were these human beings are going to cause the rest of us to suffer these human beings are going to complicate our lives and so their justification was that very justification we can kill them because them being around complicates the rest of our lives and will make our lives a disaster same same
13:52argument they can feel pain they can't like that's a whole class I feel like well what if we put him to SLE what if we put him to sleep and then kill them no no other human beings if we decide that we'll take a class of people and draw a circle around them and say that they're not worthy to live but we'll
14:07show mercy and we'll put them all to sleep so they can feel nothing and then kill them know know I know you see it I know you see I get what you're pointing it it's just like the thing I don't I agree like we shouldn't like I feel bad for the baby too like I'm not trying to disregard
14:26that watch this why I'm I'm going to Probe on that for a second why because you said it was bad yeah I think why bad bad to kill anything that can feel pain and will have a future and that's what you're getting at like that it will have a future that it would those people even if you put them to
14:40sleep would wake back up again and they'd have a future again and like want to be alive and do things but if you kill that you're ending it which would be the same for a baby you kill it and you end its future that it could have but I feel like it gets to a point where it's
14:52like like she'd be 13 giving birth it' mess up her body a lot some 12 13-year-olds can't literally give birth to a whole baby and then she'd have to raise a baby for she she can give she can give baby for adoption I've adopted three children she give her adoption ITT right but what we don't want to do
15:13is say sweetie you're a victim so now let's in this whole horrible situation let's create another victim does want and and what we want to do in a situation like that say look this is a terrible Fallen evil World evil things happen evil men do evil things but we don't want to do is take a situation where there was a crime and a tremendous
15:33evil and now create more evil out of that what we ought to do is say okay you're a victim let's protect the victim let's love the victim let's come around the victim let's support the victim let's go after the perpetrator and let's not execute the child and create a second victim right and one more thing I want
15:49to point out to you you you mentioned that you were raised in a Christian home but you're no longer professing Christian right so what I want to point out to you is you seem like a very G and like you haven't been able to shake your Christianity loose you're you're saying like it's bad to kill it's bad to kill humans I think
16:07some of my morals were probably shared from them from growing up where my parents were Christian and taught me things I just think some you should not even what I'm saying like I've read the Bible the whole Bible like I was in the VBS stuff and all that and I feel like I think like Jesus's teachings were good
16:25like I probably would be friends with him if he was alive for your values it takes like scientific evidence and things like that for me to believe in things very like kind of black and white like my dad like I would always argue back and forth with him I'd always be like but what proof do you have and then he'd be like oh well when
16:44you're a father you'll understand I was like that's appeal to an emotion like what proof do you have good and none of them could ever give me any I'm sorry to hear that like a measured proof all well let's let's try that for a second okay I feel like the Bible is not good at proof either because there's a lot of
16:59discrepancies in the Bible like the whole book of Exodus isn't historical none of it happened really yeah there's not enough historical evidence like during the 40 Years of wandering when they were in that spot you would expect skeletons of things like from when they had camels donkeys you'd expect pots people that had died in that time nothing in the entire like desert area
17:18there's nothing there's no record of the Egyptians ever enslaving the Israelites during that period either you don't you don't know about the you don't know about the most recent evidence that's shown evidence for the the Jews in the land during the time of that particular Dynasty under that particular Pharaoh do you know that that we have plenty of
17:33evidence of of the Jews in that area in that particular Dynasty the exact one um so yeah I if you send me your email I give you tons of information on that but I want to say something your instinct to say I want proof it better be true is actually a Christian belief and I I'm I'm sorry that you didn't get that from
17:51your dad I'm sure he had he's well intentioned and he loved you he loved Jesus but but that's not how Christians should reason you shouldn't just base your faith upon blind stupid Faith you have to believe things because they're true and that's that's that comport to the Christian worldview so I'm going to point point something out to you but
18:08isn't there Faith like the whole you believe so the definition of faith is like belief with a lack of direct evidence times that's not a biblical definition okay what's the biblical definition well the the the the the word for faith is is trust in I would say I would say you have you have faith too right now even as maybe an atheist or
18:27agnostic I would say I'm atheist but I'm openminded to learning something if it's I'm not going to be close minded but you do have faith right but I would argue as an atheist that your faith is actually the opposite of what you say you want your faith is actually a blind faith can I give you can I give you one point to
18:45show that okay okay just think about this so we've been standing here for the last 20 minutes or so maybe I hope I'm not making you too late we've been standing here for the last 20 minutes have you at any point in the last 20 minutes been fearful or has it crossed your mind that at some point you might
19:06just float away have a of laws at all no because Newton did a very rigorous mathematical proof of the law of gravitation Einstein did hisin field equations to show the curvature of space time creates gravity and we can measure this Force repeatedly with experiments with numbers and everything we can examine the universe that we're in and see the laws we can see the laws that
19:25are in place I'm going I'm going to press little further to show your faith I've never experienced never had a spiritual experience in my life had people say that my mom claims to have exper experiences and yourfriend no proof though let's get to that my my point was I'm going let you CH I'm going to let you challenge it okay I would argue that
19:47you can't have science apart from the biblical worldview science is impossible in your worldview and here's what here's I'm going to point to it because all of Science is based upon induction or the uniformity in nature now this is not something that you have to have a Christian tell you you can listen you can do bertran Russell one of
20:03the most famous atheists in history uh David Hume Scottish skeptic you know we're not talking about Christians here um you can look at a number of modern physicist atheist agnostics referring to the problem of the uniformity in nature and that is that in all of our past experience um nature was uniform in order to test things scientifically you
20:25have to know that nature is uniform those laws you refer to to be real they have to be in place and we have to be able to depend upon them in the future so here's my question to you as an atheist if God is not there and this universe is the random result of evolutionary processes if you and I our
20:43ancestors were bacteria and we got here through blind purposeless forces so you have to ask this question I'm a scientific man I want proof I want to believe it's true I have to be able to see it touch it test it is this a fine tuning argument no goes it's it's it's deeper than that cuz you can't even talk about fine tuning
21:02without the uniformity of nature so what I'm saying is what do you mean by the uniformity of nature that the future will be like the past that the future will be like the past yeah for example you and what I meant was I try to use a very rudimentary example we've been standing here and we we've assumed the
21:15whole time you that that um gravity is going to hold us down like it did in the past okay but we have to be able to justify that claim okay if this universe is random unguided no purpose there is no God governing it how do you justify an appeal to the uniformity in nature because you don't know that the next 5
21:34seconds will be like the past you don't know that time and chance acting on matter doesn't create uniformity but how would God enact like invoke uniformity versus just natural laws and like Quantum Fields interacting with each other so again like why would there need to be a mystical being looking at I'm not talking about a mystical being I'm
21:52talking about a God who is known who's actually condescended and walked Among Us and revealed himself to us so what I'm saying is that in order for you to do the science that you should do like let me give you this encouragement Oxford Cambridge Yale Harvard all of those institutions the last couple hundred years what were they Christian
22:13institutions I want to hear what you're yeah so so I'm saying the science that we've had the big explosion in modern science we've had without question came from the it grew out of a Christian worldview why because Christians believe in a God who governs the universe the universe is law likee it's coherent we can study it we can see the mechanisms
22:33and we can depend upon the future being like the past what I'm saying is that you have to live by Blind Faith about when you walk away from this conversation and you're walking to your next class or to go get something to eat every step is a step of Blind Faith because you don't know that the laws of
22:50the universe are going to be the same 5 seconds from now as they were in the past you have here's my point as an atheist you have no justification the principle of induction that the future will be like the past you have to live by faith okay so basically you're saying that because God is real we know that
23:06the cosmological constants will not change in 5 seconds because we have God and His revelation we know who he is God has told us about himself and how he governs the universe so I have faith in this God who sustains all things and Carries everything to its intended destination I believe in a universe that
23:27is law like and can be clocked and depended upon because I have a God who actually governs the UN law of the UN whenever he does a miracle he's like temporarily changing laws Miracles aren't problems for for me they're problems for you what does that mean what I mean is in a Christian worldview where you have a law like Universe with
23:45a God who governs it and a uniform creation when God does something peculiar and now all of a sudden wait that's not supposed to be that way this universe is lawlike it's not supposed to happen like this Miracles are weird things for me but for you for you you live in a Time Universe with time and chance acting on matter
24:05it's all chaos there's no laws in this universe that can be dependent upon so Miracles aren't strange in your world con laws that are really just pattern recognition of measuring stuff over and over again that obeys a formula so you think it's just patterns and it's not a law it's just patterns that somehow emerge to us but think about wait you're
24:24on a good point absolutely you're on a good point though I'm going to forget okay sorry sorry you're basically saying that the reasons we know that the cosmological constants th like the deducted laws of our universe will stay uniform because God created this universe so it's uniform under him we have a meaningful justification to appeal to laws in the
24:43universe at all can I say something sure so the thing the difference between what you're saying is chaos is in how things evolved is not chaos according to the laws of physics it's all explainable within the laws of physics chaotic processes within these laws verus you're trying to say
25:03like different type of chaos saying no no no I'm saying that there's no there is all you have is chaos all you have is chaos within the laws of physics well you're you're referring again to laws as though they're real things it's like a moleculees in a can if you shake them up knowing the position of one of those
25:22molecules it's probabilistic it's chaotic we wouldn't know but they all obey the same physical laws fully know right how do you know those physical laws will be the same 5 seconds from now you don't have a God who governs the universe you have a universe that came from nothing you have time and chance acting on matter you don't know that
25:38things aren't going to switch also where is the law of say two the number two where is that have you ever seen it real analysis someone did a proof on like what actual numbers are according to the real number axis so if if I took a piece of paper right now and I wrote 2 + 2 = 4
25:56okay okay is that is that an expression of a law in the universe I guess so okay so so where where does that law exist sorry it's okay I know where does that law exist is it on the paper I wrote it on well I what are you asking for like what do you mean by like where you're
26:13referring you're referring to laws that exist in the universe I'm saying that's a Christian thing how is that because in your in your worldview as an atheist you don't have a God who governs the universe who makes the universe intelligible who sustains it you're saying like what's creating these laws since these laws are here I'm saying the
26:30laws you recognize that are there and the mechanisms you recognize are there we can observe them we can use them and in my worldview they are a fixture they're a part of creation and they can be trusted I agree in your worldview they are not a fixture they are not something that's sustainable it's just
26:51something that might just be observed and when I brought the arithmetic the math problem if I wrote 2 + 2 = 4 on a piece of paper and I say is this true someone says yes I say is this a law in nature yes and then I tear it up and throw it away have I destroyed the law
27:08of 2 plus 2 equals 4 no it's still there where where does it exist through pattern recognition of the universe is it just human Minds that recognized it that's a good question but that's like a whole philosophical question that not even Christians really or anyone can answer oh we're answering it now yeah but like we're answering it now I give
27:25you an example how this works out so Christian worldview says the law of 2 plus 2al 4 is a real law it reflects the thinking of God it's coherent it's part of it's part of creation days dude like the Bible says a lot of that's not true right uh well the Earth is created in six days um is what is what scripture
27:41teaches but um let's not forget that you believe if you reject Jesus you believe that the Universe came from nothing right but I think that that inorganic became organic yeah I think how how do you get to that magical configuration you were just mentioning Miracles fluctuations have been proven to create something from you mentioned Miracles
28:02you mentioned miracles in you mentioned Miracles yeah but you believe in miracles too if it's raining I might need deltion sorry man it's okay you believe in miracles too sorry I don't like pictures it's okay you believe in miracles though you believe that inorganic matter became organic you believe that fish became philosophers
28:22you believe that something from organic according to laws while it has a low probability I'll give you that if you extrapolate it over where can you you said you believe things based upon evidence and what and what where's your evidence cuz you say you believe it so where's your evidence that inorganic matter becomes organic there's a 60s in
28:42the 60s I think scientists did things where they were shooting electric charges in a uh in like a thermo volt and they're by adding certain chemicals they were able to create like so what do they have to do what do they have what do they have to do okay I'm going to be honest I agree that there's no Direct
28:58proof where like I could Point here and say oh yeah this is where by faith became organic no I believe it by logical probability I'm basically saying which one has a higher probability that these natural scientific laws created something even if it's a low probability or a mystical being that I have no proof for I don't believe in a mystical being
29:18okay like I'm not trying to disrespect you no I don't take it as disrespect I'm trying to help help you see it's not a mystical being he is though it's it's not a mystical being it's not an unknown being it's a god who's revealed himself spoken to us well you've heard you've heard his you've heard his message but
29:32you reject it and I would say that your rejection of the message of Jesus is not based upon evidence no no I don't reject Jesus's message I think a lot of the things he says about like empathy morality how to treat people is really good I but his message also was that if you don't come in Repentance and Faith
29:46to him that you're going to die in your sins I know that's the only thing I'm like well man kind of twisting an arm behind my back no and I'm not trying to make I'm not trying to hurt you by saying that to you but I'm saying that we Jesus says you're either with me or you're against me you can't take him
29:58love your neighbor as you love yourself and then not listen to him when he says that he's God In the Flesh and he came to save his people from their sins so either he's a liar dude he is either a liar and a fraud or he is who he claimed to be he doesn't let us put him in a
30:13different place just here's the thing is like what if I told you right now I'm God I would want you to prove it like I feel like what if I told you you know what I tell you to create a whole universe and to show me all of I tell I tell you to show me how quantum gravity
30:26works and I tell you to show H if I told you I was God you would think I'm a Nutter rightly so and if I told you that I'm forgiving your sins you'd be like what makes you think you have the power to do that I'm like because I'm God I can forgive you of your sins you would
30:40think I'm crazy Jesus said those things that he was God and that he came to forgive sins right right and so we can't take him and say I'm going to put you on the shelf and say you're just a good moral teacher because he said that he came to save his people from their sins and so he's either nuts or he's the
30:56greatest con man in history or he is who he claimed to be okay but like Muhammad said things like that well Buddha didn't fully say things like Muhammad never said that he was God Muhammad and this this is interesting so Jesus comes it's prophesied every detail about his life and Ministry has prophesied hundreds of years before he comes down to how he's
31:17going to die uh where it's going to take place when it's going to take place hundreds of years and I can demonstrate that to you but then Jesus comes dies rises again as was prophesied hundreds of years later someone named Muhammad comes along he heard stories from Christian tribes around him he created this new revelation the Quran and he got
31:37information wrong he heard things wrong he uh changed the message of Jesus and he said that he he is the the final prophet of of um Allah and uh so what did he do though all he did was distort the Christian message changed to Jesus says he was and he comes hundreds of years later so it's okay so I'm saying I'm saying
31:59it's so it's so easy to it's so it's not your fault it's so easy to reject his message because you just have the original to go back to and you go yeah you come hundreds of years later you didn't even get parts of jesus' life right you obviously misheard something you changed the the story of Jesus he
32:16said he wasn't the Son of God he didn't die on a cross he didn't rise from the dead and you came like hundreds of years later it's easy to see the nature of his Revelation it's completely fraudulent I'll be honest I'm still a little stuck on like the the proof side of it I like it's just very difficult for me to
32:36believe it's something without proof even if what the morals of what they said are correct I just can't buy everything they've said no you shouldn't I feel like that's how CHR say something that are true and then lie about other things or think something but they're wrong think about this broy come on over here think about this you're asking a
32:54really great question you are saying it has to be true to believe I don't want to believe things that are false I want evidence for those things highest probability I could give for the right answer excellent that's the way a Christian thinks based upon a Biblical worldview watch let's let's do this I know you probably run into some
33:11Christians that haven't thought through these things there's no question some Christians haven't thought through their faith they haven't dug into these things let's do two platforms for a second you're standing on a platform of atheism I'm standing on a platform of of the Bible biblical worldview okay in your platform you believe in a universe that is that is
33:56unpurposely uniform will never change like there's been papers for example where they're saying that over the expansion of our universe as it's shrunk or expanded over time these cosmological constants could possibly change even creating like a natural selection of these constants where you'll create more chaotic universes with different constants where the universe could collapse or expand extremely rapidly
34:17causing nothing to you're bring up a great orological constants where it kind of creates a somewhat stable region where we could get things like stars planets and they ended up doing like a mathematic proof showing that there's about a thousand sets out of you know trillions of sets of cosc constants that could give rise to universes that have
34:36planets Stars Etc so I do believe that there are laws of nature but I'm open to the like physical possibility of them changing at some point either due to like high energy High space but think about what you'd have to see you and I would have to have to see a stable Universe a lawlike universe to understand what is no longer lawlike and
34:56chaotic or where things get wonky you'd have to first have uniformity and the principle of induction to even study that to say there's transformation or things are going AR my point is is that youas you're saying my point though is is when you say the only way to do experimentation is to have the uniformity in nature you can't
35:17experiment because if we can't depend upon the future being like the past experimentation is a moot point we could test if the future would be like the past pretty easily like how gravity brought me down just like very good and so here's what berran Russell you could test it over here's here's what beran Russell would say to that he's he's an
35:36atheist he's one of he's one of your own prophets okay he's like he's one I don't listen to what they said I'm just making a point like this is not from my side okay so bertran Russell really well-respected atheist in in in history great atheistic philosopher and he has a book uh problems in philosophy and he talks about the principle of induction
35:55and basically he would say to what you just said said he would say that's nonsense that doesn't answer the question it doesn't justify it he says you can't say well the future would be like the past because look I just did that and I did it a thousand times only no because the instant after I just did
36:12it and then it could change theoretically in the future he say he says I want a justification for how we know the future will be like the past he says because all science depends upon it all reasoning depends upon it say I do think that yes technically there's some infantes probability that that could happen and I technically don't have 100%
36:32certainty but if you were to calculate probability you know you do it measure it do it measure it do it measure it and you divide it by the amount of times you did it with the amount of times this occurred you get 99 Point basically infinite 9es basically 100% for every time a great argument for the uniformity
36:50while I agree that I can't always 100% know the uniformity as like 100% constant I can approximate it as it's like 99 infinite % you're constant you're making the argument for the uniformity in nature that there's laws in nature we can depend upon the future being like the past I can run tests and say probab probability here with laws
37:12here is going to look like this now all of that gets thrown away the moment you do the work because you don't know that the future is going to follow that okay so how would so so my point is my point is this ready you care about truth you believe that nature is lawlike and that you can depend upon the future all
37:33of that all of that militates against what you're standing on you believe that your ancestors were bacteria that this universe is time and chance acting on matter human beings listen to this human beings in in the worldview you've adopted are nothing more than I'm a Christian protoplasm we are just the same results of evolutionary processes
37:55as these rocks there's no difference in terms of meaning or dignity and value between the human being and that meaning is very subjective I like things I can like measure or know are there like I could have the same life as you and I'd have no meaning from it and you could live the same life as me and have no
38:14meaning I'm talking about ultimate meaning not my own subjective perception my my my like for example you made a good point here's probably what would I answer it is you said um I think it's wrong to kill a human yeah agree but humans do kill humans yeah and but you and I know that we can't take a human's
38:32life unjustified that's an ultimate that's an ultimate above all of us it doesn't matter what that guy says I believe I can kill this guy no the ultimate is above you it it's not just a subjective thing where we got together and decided we think it's wrong to kill humans it is something that stands above all of us
38:50okay so are you basically saying that our they're not morality that emerges from us has to be coming from something else animals that exhibit altruism between each other to kind of survive as a p right like you kill your buddy you'll have less people helping you fight off Predators so you're more likely to die like that can even be
39:09explained chaotically and like evolutionarily so what I'm what I'm saying is is that it's it's not it's it's it's based upon an ultimate objective outside of all of us the very character of God and his own Revelation I don't think it's outside of all of us I think it's no no I mean a Christian perspective yeah yeah that the the the
39:29ultimate is something that exists outside of me it exists outside of my desires my wants my subjective you know desires and Pursuits or whatever it's something that's above me it's ultimate um and so when we talk about Humanity from a Biblical worldview you and I have meaning that's inescapable because you are in the image of God I'm in the image of God they're
39:51all in the image of God and so they have meaning and value apart from even my own perception that was another thing about Christianity I was confused we have meaning but then what what's the meaning that God made for us cuz he's like this Grand God we're like specs on a patrio dis to him he could wipe away the whole
40:10universe and do it again and everything we do is only within this universe can't do some greater thing for God basically the purpose of us being made is God's amusement or like to just forgot it'd be like me making little bacteria in a patri dish and then somehow communicating to them that if they're nice to other
40:30bacteria when they die I'll take their their little bacteria souls and put them in like pure heroin moral basically for like unlimited dopamine well that's that's a that's a if if that were true that'd be a really weird perspective that's not the Christian worldview okay Heaven's joying in God right it's not like a or is it a heaven is not just a
40:50heaven is not just a place it's a person it's it's God and God's presence and you asked probably the most important question of all what in the world is his purpose in creating us and the answer to that according to scripture is to glorify God and to enjoy him forever so he made us to worship him so he made us to enjoy
41:08him to Delight in him to to be enjoyed by God and the craziest thing you made a good point we are so infantes small in this universe why would God care and that's just the glory of the Gospel is that God creates these images of himself these people to reflect his glory and to know him and to enjoy him forever and
41:29we've all rebelled against him and hated him we hate his ways we hate we hate his governance we don't want his word we want our own ways we want to seek our own pleasure and our own Gods we hate him and though he we deserve to be punished by him he condescends in the person of Christ and lives the life that
41:47we've failed dies a death that we deserve for our rebellion and then he conquers our greatest enemy death and he gives the free gift of eternal life and peace with him through faith in Christ so we can know God and enjoy him forever why would the creator of this insane Universe care about little specks on a
42:09petri dish that's what's so mindboggling about the gospel okay I kind of can understand what you're saying it's like how a father would give birth to a son he doesn't have to do it for some greater reason like for the son to avenge him or something just do it because he wants a relationship with him even if the father's much more
42:24intelligent and has much bigger things to do so okay that that kind of answered my question but what I'm still confused about is why you're saying uniformity thinkal like you're like I'm still like not seeing a proof in God like I'm seeing like proof I I'm saying ready here maybe this will help you you're helping me to understand what you're
42:45articulating it together the proof of the Christian God is apart from him you can't prove anything um wait could you elaborate on okay the proof of the Christian God is that apart from him can't prove anything what is required for proof laws of logic uniformity in nature ethical obligations not to lie about the proof
43:07right so if I came to you right now and you said hey prove God to me and I just invented something fictional and you're like dang that's a good proof and I'm like yeah I'm lying to you the entire time that's wrong it's absolutely morally wrong all proof all proof requires laws of logic principle of induction and ethical
43:27obligations not to lie I that doesn't comport with atheism it only comports with the Christian worldview so if you don't start with God in the question you can't prove anything at all okay but how does Okay so I agree that well here's the thing is what are you defining as a God for this and why would you need God
43:47not a God the true and living God who's revealed himself this whole thing just feels like very like illogical to me I'm really TR doesn't matter it doesn't matter things aren't a problem in atheistic worldview have you ever seen a law of logic yeah where discreet mathematics
44:08laws of I said a law of non-contradiction where does that exist what wait okay like I'm trying I'm really really trying I know I'm trying to show you if you have a worldview that's all material matter and motion nothing is spiritual nothing Transcendent right nothing immaterial you can't appeal to immaterial laws in a universe that's matter and
44:30motion well where's the law of logic dude like okay I'm trying it's very big I know but no it's not very big like you're basically saying that unless we 100% know that nothing's going to change in the future that's one aspect that's law that we're using now that's the uniformity and nature aspect right
44:52it means you can't justify an appeal to them in the future you can't justify an appeal to Nature being uni form but we're on the laws of logic question right now I'm showing you this without Jesus you can't prove anything with your worldview you can't justify everything you're doing what I'm saying to you is this and I mean this with as much love
45:08as I can give to you you are showing that you depend upon God right now for every moment of your life in order to live your life you got to secretly depend upon the god that you know is there but yet you believe a worldview that totally rejects all of that not just for so the uniformity that's one
45:26asp okay so uniformity that I know things will which I don't I don't fully know I just think logically that and then you're saying the laws of logic where do those come from I don't have like a good answer for that but but you depend upon it don't you I feel like you're just saying and God made it it's
45:43not that God it's not it's not the say just saying God made it like this is matter okay I can touch this you and I made of matter okay we get this we can test this observe this all the rest um it's a material Universe if all that we have is a materialist Universe we have victory over how is this dripping on us
46:05stand right here um if all we have is a materialist Universe material Universe then how do we appeal to immaterial entities like laws of logic or laws of math where are those at somebody could say watch somebody could say to it they could say well wait why do you need God to prove that I can use math for things
46:26to if I have a Christian worldview okay God has spoken he told us about himself his governance of the world what he's like the Christian worldview can actually justify laws of logic because it reflects the very thinking of God as an example God cannot lie God cannot engage in logical contradiction that's part of the biblical worldview and so we base
46:47our belief that laws of logic are real that they they're sustainable that they apply to me here and to somebody in Iceland I feel like he does break kind of the laws of like logic when the sense of he can be in multiple places at once on the right so like he can be all like he has all
47:04these features of him that are very immaterial and very very good that's that's it you nailed it you nailed it the Christian worldview has a justification for the immaterial if you give Jesus up you don't have justification for immaterial all you have is matter see Christian worldview has a basis for the immaterial you need something immaterial to have immaterial
47:26ideas such as logic so you could prove material things you would need a basis to be able to appeal to the immaterial okay so I agree that with you there that you would need some immaterial thing to kind of build your logic from to where you could have things like proofs and experiments but I think I'm just I just
47:45really can't buy the that the immaterial has to be the god of the Christians specifically and I don't really see how in the Christian Bible it implies that just because logic exists all these Miracles happened all these things happened and the Christian God is no we're just doing this kind of we're doing this kind of Peace meal I'm just
48:04touching kind of each point at a time so basically just God is real because of these immaterial no we're saying saying because God is we can have a justification for immaterial laws like laws of logic we can have a justification for the uniformity in nature we can have a justification for absolute moral obligations and ethical obligations to
48:24each other so what was your immaterial like how could logic come from God could you explain that to me no it's okay so because we have the revelation of God God's walked Among Us he's spoken to us we have a meaningful worldview and justification to believe in immaterial entities like laws of logic because we have a basis for the immaterial and the
48:44material we have a basis for laws of all kinds um and so again in order to demonstrate the laws of logic you have to have a worldview that comports with the laws of logic so one thing people have tried like atheists have said dang this is a this is a difficult one a atheists have admitted I'm still not
49:05proven on your like your first like axom if you would be like you're saying like Okay logic is an immaterial idea that we've conjectured to kind of make sense of the world no I'm saying it's it's it's it's big it's bigger it's it's more profound than that you're saying since it's immaterial it must come from something that's absolute can't lie and
49:26is material for this to be true that's an aspect of the conversation what I'm saying is it's not just something that we've thought of with our human Minds right so like if somebody said know well if somebody well here's because we appeal to it all the time and build Bridges because of it so if somebody said the laws of logic you know we' just
49:44sort of come up with these laws in our minds that means that somebody could just create another version of logic that says go ahead and contradict yourself it's okay to contradict yourself that's the law of logic if it's just a part of human minds and our brain Gap then it's just invented and it's not lawlike if it's just a part of the human
50:01brain inventing discovered from pns nature logic is something human beings it's it's something that human beings recognize as embedded in nature reflects the very thinking of God I can agree that we find it embedded in it's not something that we just invented in our own minds otherwise you and I can create our own versions of laws of logic well
50:22no cuz even things like animals show logic they reflect the very thinking of the Creator it's not it's Nota aren't the people of God right like well it just it just reflects that animals show of course a special creative aspect to them that they are even themselves dependent
50:43upon a a created order that acts a certain way my point is and this is the just for you to think about you checked your phone I don't know if you have to go um okay so no I don't want to I don't want to get you in trouble or make you lose a class or something but the the
50:57proof of the Christian God is apart from him you can't prove anything proof requires logical consistency laws of logic it requires the uniformity in nature and it requires an ethical obligation to tell the truth if you believe that you live in a universe that came from nothing your ancestors were fish and that there are no ultimates above any of us and there's nothing is
51:19guided you have to depend upon Jesus every day of your life to want proof I don't see either of those that we came from fish and that the came from nothing I see those as absolutes right like I just think that like if I use kind of the like laws that I understand and know what has the highest probability of
51:37occurring and then I kind of just I'm like okay maybe I'll believe something like this and then until a theory of quantum gravity and a theory of like you want to believe things that are only true yeah I I at least want to attempt to Welcome to the Christian worldview what did Jesus say Jesus said Jesus said
51:53his I'm saying that in order in order for you to truth you have to have Jesus Jesus says I am the way the truth and the life and so that's the claim of Jesus that he is the truth said that like lots of people have said I'm the truth I'm right are you talking exactly very very good you nailed actually that
52:12that's better than I that I said it to you earlier when you talk about um drinking the Kool-Aid and the guy who leads a bunch of people to their death in Jonestown or you talk about David Kesh you're talking about two men that did claim to be God yeah right so did Jesus so Jesus is either a fraud and a
52:32con man like them or he is the Lord Of Glory and he is the truth okay that's all I'm asking you to do is to think about Jesus in that way okay I think that the things he said were helpful and can help people and are how about the fact that he said that he was God and
52:47that we would be condemned and go to hell if we didn't trust in him I honestly think that maybe he grew up like you know with his Rabbi studies in the temple that that's what they taught him for so long that Al he thought that the rabbis were angry that he called himself God they tried to Stone him for
53:02calling himself God I just I feel like it's higher probability that he was a very like wise and emotionally kind man but maybe a little mistaken about what he was here to do versus that he genuinely a god mistaken it it'd be bad to be mistaken I feel like yeah well Jesus according think about this Jesus according to you was a descendant of
53:22fish it's not wrong for a descendant of fish to be mistaken about anything who cares you're okay but according to to me you are too so what our ancestors are bacteria wait so what I'm pressing I'm pressing on your atheism okay if our ancestors were bacteria okay then someone being mistaken isn't a problem there's no ultimate yeah there's no ultimate it's
53:44okay for him to be mistaken I just think it's a little not fair for him to lead people into something Justice matters yeah because there's people that have like ended their lives early bacteria ought to hold to Justice hpth no I just think that I shouldn't I don't want to hurt anything why is there value maybe I
54:03think of different perspective does Ang you to I mean maybe you killed some an or something but does it does it bother you that I I do that to this matter not violating so what if one evolved piece of matter causes the Bloodshed of another what meaning is there in that I guess in the grand scheme of things nothing there
54:24you go there's your atheism and you won't live that way I know you don't cuz I'm not going to hurt people i' go to jail you haven't been able to shake your Christian faith loose yet I know you're not a Christian I feel like that's just morality for the sake of altruism not an atheism not an atheism but like even in
54:41the sense of altruism and like like you can come alism altruism is meaningless for the descendants of bacteria no it's not because if if because if cells could find a way to Bunch together then it'll be bigger so it'll have a higher chance of survival biger why don't we why don't we why don't we kosene the whole antill wait
55:00what do you mean yeah sure sure I was saying like it's more like like the reason why organisms kind of evolved from bacteria as you say is that which one has a higher chance of winning a single cell versus a single enemy cell or 10 cells that Bunch together versus one sure and then if one of those cells wants to eat
55:19one of those other ones and they kill it really fast so it doesn't let it or if all these cells kind of like don't want to attack each other when they Fus to each other it has a higher chance of surviving so and so you're acting like life you're acting like life is valuable enough to be concerned with it surviving
55:34but your worldview is purposeless time and chance acting on matter it's just just think surv good because it was good for us back there's a lot of people that think that we should not allow other humans to survive yeah I've seen people like that I honestly don't know like what do you mean not allow others to survive like well there I mean dude you
55:52know this I mean so many instances yeah there's instances there's instances last 100 years I brought up Paul pot ma Stalin uh they belied that these people shouldn't survive Hitler did the same thing the Green River Killer Ted Bundy um you know a number of different serial killers they just figured out who the who the uh Jack the Ripper was uh and uh
56:14which I think is amazing they did their DNA analysis yeah dude they just found this week yeah he was a Polish he was a Polish barber in London they uh yeah polish Barber apparently he showed of like anatomically knowing we were just talking about this last night do you know that Barbers used to this is total tangent did you know that Barbers
56:32used to have like a they needed like like a lowlevel medical kind of degree cuz they would do sort of like basic level medicine stuff in the barber shop to get that's interesting so they they they found it because they had some old um cuz that was only the end of the 19th century that he was doing that they
56:47found some of the Articles from some of his crime scenes where they've had them London has them and they did DNA analysis and they put it into the system and they found descendants through ancestry.com kind of stuff and they found his bloodline and they were like well that was he was a suspect the Polish Barber was a suspect but they
57:04never caught him anyway they found him where I don't even know where we were at now where were we at um you were saying that we kind of go like back and forth back and forth I just wanted to this this is this is the point okay yeah I'm I'm saying to you that that God says that we all know him okay okay we
57:25all well you do and here's what I'm saying to see here's what I'm saying something that's like real here's what I'm saying you demonstrate every day this is what I'll leave you with you demonstrate every single day of your life every breath every moment when you walk away from here every single step is going to be showing you that you know the god
57:46that I'm talking about you're dependent upon him every moment of your life in your ethical claims in your dependence upon the laws of logic the laws of math the laws of gravity you're dependent upon him in every breath and every single move your problem I would say is the same as me before Christ it's not a lack of evidence or light from God it's
58:07that we're Sinners we don't want him we rebel against him well no I want to know the truth so if God's real I would rather be Christian for that sake just to know to believe in what's true like I don't want to reject something just CU I doesn't let me jack off and smoke weed like that's stupid like I want to if I
58:25believe in something I want to be because it's true remember a moment ago when I said you're going to be dependent upon the Christian God you're going to violate your atheism every step that's not an atheist talking I feel like you keep saying things but it's not connecting in my brain because like saying something and then you're just saying that's not
58:42aism Mark of God that's not atheism why is that a mark of God you go because it's a mark of God no that's not what I said that that would be circular reasoning and that's not what I'm saying and that would be a problem say it like the whole thing again like like the proofs of like what like I get
58:56uniformity laws of logic laws of logic and ethical obligations ethical obligations absolutes eth okay so I can explain ethical obligation by altruism and you can't not with atheism because you got to do it with atheism because there's a higher probability of if I stick together of surviving than if I go by myself but that's irrelevant in atheism we're just protoplasm and the
59:17universe that doesn't care about us our ancestors were bacteria but things that want to survive are more likely to survive things that don't want to survive here's my answer with atheism ready I'm going to use atheism so what it's Bia yeah I agree and the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter but this little thing this is why we the end
59:33of yeah we stay alive of impulse you just said it all you have is impulse you don't have absolutes so when the man rapes the woman all you can say as an atheist is well we find that uncomfortable now it's not absolutely wrong in the grand scheme of things what he does to rape her is not really wrong
59:52we're just uncomfortable with it for today we've decided for now that we don't like that that's atheism proof of that bro I will give you atheist ethesis saying exactly what I'm saying as an atheist in the grand scheme of like well the whole universe we're all going to die and the it doesn't matter I agree but while we are
1:00:11alive we have a limited experience I feel like it's at least most logical to make that experience as pleasurable as I can for others than it would be to herity value and others you gave all that up you already gave it up okay wait one question so if morality comes from what you're morality can from so you're
1:00:29saying essentially that logic cannot exist without God why wait why are these things like cuz basically the the uniformity and the morality can kind of go back to logic if you explain it in the right way so they're all kind they're all interconnected it's all interconnected like so why do I need logic to believe like why do I need God
1:00:49to have logic you need to be able to CU you need to be able to justify a a meaningful justification something that provides the preconditions necessary to make it intelligible you have to be able to justify an appeal to immaterial invariant unchanging uh laws
1:01:11that exist you can't do that in atheism that's gone and wait why are you saying that that's gone because of atheism because if you believe in a naturalistic materialist worldview you believe that all that exists is matter if all that exists is matter then IM laws don't exist okay I agree that there's not that there's not
1:01:33a bro that there's not a current like understanding so you live by faith I I agree that the probability of some mechanism that invokes these laws that I don't fully know what invokes these laws you live by faith I think it depends I think that see it kind of feels like but see I don't live by Blind Faith you're living by Blind
1:01:54Faith I live in a faith that is rooted in truth facts history God condescending walking Among Us his word my world view can account for all of your experience every experience you have every day shows that you know the god that I'm talking about the problem is our sin and our never seen heard any Miracle never had any Revelation never had him talk to
1:02:15me I was praying every day trying to believe in God heard nothing saw nothing I feel like the more I learn the more I just see that everything can be explained without it and and I get that you're trying to say like sorry I'm trying to think of what I'm trying to say it's okay hey can I exchang
1:02:35information with you I don't know if I'm comfortable that's I'll give you my number you can you can you can text me call me if you want and we can continue the conversation in the future I can I I'll just give you my number you don't have to or I'll give you my email address how about that I'll give you my
1:02:48email address and you can message me we can continue the conversation just think about what I said and then sure sorry I'm don't apologize for anything understand what you mean by that because I believe in logic it's it contradicts your commitments and
1:03:11your worldview you have to live contradicting your commitments and worldview every moment you step in this world wait why again because I just feel like it's not couple things couple things couple things ready to show that you know the god that I'm talking about and you're depending on and I don't mean this as an insult this is a problem for
1:03:28all of us before Christ you're you're going to walk away from here that you just did one right there I want to know the truth descendants of bacteria don't need to know the truth the truth doesn't matter in a world like that but you're going to walk away from what do you mean the descendants of bacteria bacteria
1:03:42don't descendants like us do you have impulses to do things you're you're evolved pwn scum right in a universe that doesn't care about you with no ultimates above us nothing matters but you're going to walk away for the rest of the day living like that's not true you're going to respect you're probably going to respect and love women you're going to show
1:04:01courtesy you're going to show manners you're going to act like other human beings have value and dignity if you left here and you saw someone Drive their car in the side of the road and get hurt I bet this gentle soul that you are you would run up to them and try to help them acting like they have some
1:04:15value or something you're going to walk depending upon the uniformity of nature you're going to walk like reason matters that ethical obligations are ultimate but you're not you can't live that just put in there okay thank you man so I think I get what you're saying that because everything is chaotic because a god wasn't making it overall it's for no
1:04:37purpose nothing matters yeah then nothing matters I agree and then you're saying but because I want to help others in things like that that proves that I at least think that it does matter you're secretly depending upon God wait how am I secretly depending upon God violating mistaken that it matter violating your own professed commitments
1:04:59your commitment you already said it a minute ago is in a grand scheme it doesn't matter rape is not an absolute evil in the grand scheme of things abusing other human beings is not an absolute evil that's atheism you're not being inconsistent there that's atheism but you well that's nihilism is a part of atheism it's it's The Logical
1:05:14conclusion of atheism nihilists aren't being inconsistent they're being consistent I feel like I'm trying to like you don't want to be an nihilist that's the conclusion like an altruistic logic if I hurt a woman for no reason I go to jail if I don't I don't I feel like so if we punish people I to make their
1:05:36limited time on Earth not as pleasurable for no logical reason so it's valuable so it again it comes back to logic I feel like you're saying the reason we have logic is the ethical obligation it goes beyond Logic the ethical obligation is something that is absolute ultimate why like how do you have proof for that versus like an argument saying that can
1:05:55I show you can I show you from a Christian perspective with God's revelation of his own character his word his will his law human beings as image bearers of God I can say that when a man kidnaps brutally rapes and dismembers a woman that that is absolutely morally wrong ultimately okay you can't here's
1:06:18the here's the thing I think our definitions of this is wrong like you're trying to show me rules that work in your like little box sorry it's okay doesn't convert correctly CU you're basically saying since I think humans being created all that was an accident and that this whole universe is just an accident it could be like multiple
1:06:35universes being created like every second where all these things happen but you might have misunderstood me I just more basic than that just make it simple okay sure sure sure you're saying like nothing matters in the grand scheme of things th doing something that hurts another person right now doesn't matter in the grand scheme of it doesn't matter
1:06:56now or in the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter at all now or in the grand SCH it matter it it it is literally morally irrelevant I think that the reason why I feel like it does matter right now is purely because of my human nature purely just because I evolve to be altruistic what the rapist
1:07:14rap grand scheme of things I agree like it sounds so bad to say cuz I feel everyone would be like oh how could you but I agree in the grand scheme of things nothing matters not being good or bad matters I agree like I think that's true got you to The Logical conclusion of your atheism and you don't really
1:07:29believe it and you won't live that way yeah because I think that um you know the god that I'm talking even if someone's alive for a little bit I want to give them as pleasurable as an experience as I can while they're alive like an abortion before they die who no not an abortion but you see the argument
1:07:45for you just made a compelling argument for the abolition of abortion even if the if the human being is alive for a moment we want to give him the most protection and preservation of life so welcome to the club okay you got it okay I'm just I'm just giving you a little jab there to think about that
1:08:00okay I agree that like make make it simpler make it simpler okay you're standing on atheism I'm standing on biblical Revelation in God's word I can call the kidnapping and rape and and dismemberment of this woman absolutely morally evil and all you can't no and
1:08:20I'm not saying you believe it I'm saying you don't really believe it but your atheism forces you to say that I don't think it forces me to say that I think if we use like a purely logical brain yeah it doesn't matter but then he does agree with you I feel like our altruism and things like remember
1:08:36atheist sorry remember the rapist doesn't agree with you in your altruism yeah he doesn't agree with me right and his his perspective is no more or less valuable than yours because your both just the descendants of bacteria and a universe that doesn't care about you there's no justice above any of us only sky above us okay but that's it what if
1:08:56God wasn't real like what like in this new case what if God wasn't real would you still think it's wrong to kill things if God if God wasn't if God wasn't who he claims to be then I would believe with all atheist ethicists that have have talked about this question they would say I'll I'll give you Dawkins Dawkins says because of his
1:09:16atheistic perspective and Neo darwinian Evolution and all the rest he says um uh there is no good no evil only blind and pitiless indifferent but even Dawkins doesn't live like that he says that with his atheism but he won he knows the God no because he knows the god that I'm talking
1:09:37about what he was raised in the context of a Christian worldview too when he in Oxford crazy thing about Dawkins in Oxford when Dawkins would walk to his classroom he had to come um underneath a little edifice that said wonderful are the works of the Lord right cuz that was a Christian Institution developed all this amazing stuff in our world like
1:09:58science and law and the practice of Law and all Justice and all those things literature art Beauty all that stuff Christian worldview stuff right so he has to say one thing with his atheism but live like a Christian every day of his life just like you're going to do when you walk away from here okay you need you need to turn to
1:10:18Christ in faith for forgiveness and salvation it just feels like it stretch a little bit like I agree like yes atheism everything's like blind and meaningless and in the grand scheme of things it won't mean anything and then right now sure you can let it devel yes while in the grand scheme it may not matter I just feel
1:10:37like if it doesn't matter in the grand scheme it doesn't matter now but to me it matters I feel like like even if there's not like yes like a math reason saying I have to treat someone okay I you live by the same Blind Faith you were accusing your dad of well the thing is like and I know you wer trying to
1:10:55you're saying it bed you like if if if there's a species and they don't want to kill people they're going to survive they're going to grow but then if there's a species that's okay with killing each other they're going to slowly die out so what right and the grand scheme of things I agree doesn't matter then it doesn't matter now okay
1:11:13yes it doesn't matter matter but I'm saying like the reason why we have altruism right now is because millions of years ago it was beneficial for us to survive and yes while there's not a meaning to survive if some want to surv they'll die want to surv because just becauseit just because something
1:11:34benefits by surviving doesn't mean that we ought to have things survive right bra chemistry has evolved to now Fel this impulse to do that yeah and so even though yeah so what you what you believe our impulse in our brain what you're talking about is chemical reactions inside the brain that evolved from fish
1:11:56I guess I agree that in the grand scheme they don't matter they don't matter now either I have an Impulse now watch watch brother as as you leave here confused I know watch watch as you leave here you're going to live every step every moment every breath you send me like a written source of what you're trying to
1:12:12say I sent you an email I feel like I have to like read it CU I'm really trying to I'm not I'm not I'm not trying to put this on you now so you have to answer those questions now or I mean I want you to know Jesus and to be forgiven and and to know him and peace
1:12:25with God but I'm not expecting you to somehow like give all the answers and responses on the spot email me let's talk okay okay what's your name again uh Oliver Oliver Jeff it was a real pleasure talking to you man seriously thank you