Geoff Woo: The Ugly Truth About Venture Capital l Trailblazers Podcast Episode 42

0:00So today on the show, I am so excited to

0:02be joined by Jeff Woo. Jeff is the

0:04founder and managing partner of

0:05Antifund, a venture from backing bold

0:07founders, building the future across

0:09technology, consumer, defense, and

0:11culture. He's also the founder and

0:12executive chairman of Ketone [music] IQ,

0:14a company pioneering ketone-based

0:15performance nutrition, and the founder

0:17of Archive, a platform helping brands

0:19manage and scale communitydriven content

0:20[music] online. Before becoming a

0:22founder and investor, Jeff studied

0:23computer science at Stanford, where he

0:25earned his degree with honors and

0:26distinction [music] before leaving the

0:28CS Masters program to build companies

0:29full-time. Over the years, he's

0:31co-authored multiple US patents and

0:32peer-reviewed scientific papers with

0:34much of his work focused on human

0:35performance, metabolism, longevity, and

0:37the intersection of technology and

0:38biology. Please welcome Jeff.

0:42If I were to ask the people closest to

0:44you,

0:45what would they say are your greatest

0:47strengths and your greatest weaknesses?

0:48I would say that a weakness is just like

0:54I I think I I fit like an archetype of

0:57being lazy smart. So like I'm kind of

0:59streaky.

1:00>> Um

1:02>> street geeky

1:03>> streaky like like I'll just be obsessed

1:05with something.

1:06>> Okay.

1:06>> Oh, streaky. Like you have a streak.

1:08>> Yeah. Yeah. And then just like I'll stay

1:10up all night like vibe coding with

1:12codecs and just like you know in

1:14February like I haven't pushed code in

1:16GitHub for like years even though I you

1:18know study computer science was like a

1:20software engineer and then February like

1:23earlier this year it was like an open

1:24claw and was like you got two Mac minis

1:26and just

1:27>> went crazy.

1:28>> Yeah. Just probably spent like 200 hours

1:29just like getting super deep in that

1:31ecosystem and then you know there's

1:34something like another new shiny toy

1:35that pops up. Um,

1:38but I I think the a part of me that just

1:41looks back at just how I could have been

1:43better is um

1:47just actually trying to be the best at

1:50one thing. I'm somewhat envious or

1:52jealous of people that find their one

1:54thing and are obsessed with it.

1:56>> I wish and maybe I'm just trying to

1:58force myself back into that kind of

2:00mode. Um because I think with AI tools

2:06you essentially get intelligence out of

2:08a meter like just you you have compute

2:11as an as a as a as a like multiple side

2:14brains. I think that benefits people

2:17that have the incremental insight into

2:20an industry because the execution gets

2:23more commoditized, but like the wisdom,

2:25the insights, like the little customer

2:27learnings that it just takes being

2:29obsessed with a specific space gets more

2:31and more valuable. So if we're going

2:34back to generalists or specialists, I

2:36think in a world of AI, I think

2:37specialists are going to be better

2:40because AI will be the best generalist

2:43almost by definition because they just

2:45suck down every single corpus of

2:47everything that's published on the

2:48internet and then all these different

2:50teams are doing reinforcement learning

2:52or just fine-tuning every single little

2:54discipline. Of course, like things that

2:56are in your brain and your like lived

2:58experience is not necessarily reflected

2:59in it. And that's assuming that you're

3:00at the bleeding edge of what you're

3:01doing, right? And I think we're both

3:03have some of that or at the bleeding

3:05edge of what's in venture. So I think

3:08people like us benefit, but people who

3:10are not at the frontier.

3:12>> Yeah.

3:13>> Their training data is in the their

3:16their information is in the training

3:18set. Like that is just what chat GPT6 is

3:20going to pump out.

3:21>> That's why a lot of like junior hires

3:23are not getting hired because all the

3:24information that they have to learn is

3:26already available on the internet. And

3:27you'd rather teach an agent than teach a

3:28human. And that's that's a lot of it,

3:30too. It's like that same thread that

3:32people see about like junior level folks

3:34not getting hired and senior level folks

3:36having that extra knowledge, that extra

3:37like frontier, you know, wisdom.

3:40>> They're the ones that benefit.

3:41>> Yeah. And then I guess like just going

3:43back to like, you know, what my parents

3:44or like people growing up would would

3:46tell me like I've been thinking about

3:48this a lot. I think that again I don't

3:50want to like sound too like you know

3:52like proud of myself, but I think I was

3:54like just good at school.

3:55>> You got to brag a little bit. Come on.

3:56I'm asking you. like you know like my

3:58like a random thing that I won. I had

4:02the highest SAT score as an eighth

4:03grader. So I had like a 1590 to 1600 as

4:06an eighth grader and I think I won like

4:08some John Hopkins CTY competition for

4:10like taking tests. So it's like so I was

4:12just like good at taking multiple choice

4:13tests. I placed out of like the Stanford

4:15language requirement in Spanish cuz I

4:17was like I kind of know Spanish but not

4:20really but like I just passed out of

4:22like college requirements of language

4:23cuz I could fill out the SAT too and

4:25like guess the conjugation of the verbs

4:26and like kind of just see the patterns

4:28there. Um so I think I was that's cool.

4:31So like I was like winning like local

4:33state level competitions.

4:36Um, but I I think I just realized that

4:39if you're trying to win like national,

4:40international level competitions, there

4:42are people that are as smart, if not

4:43smarter than me, who are like actually

4:45obsessed with training and studying that

4:47specific thing 20 hours a day. Um, so I

4:53think that has colored a lot of my

4:56of how I want to be as an investor, an

4:59operator, but also I think it also

5:01reflects in terms of people I like to

5:03partner with. um

5:06like the almost like the socialite

5:08trying to be too many things um and

5:12thinking that makes them cosm

5:14cosmopolitan or well-rounded almost like

5:18I it almost feels like to me like that's

5:20a aristocratic a effect that people want

5:23to present but I just want to like work

5:25with like the hardcore obsessed autistic

5:28people who just want their one thing

5:31>> and like and if I want to partner with

5:33people like I need I feel like I need to

5:35be like autistically focused on like my

5:37you know one or two things.

5:38>> Well then maybe this is like a good

5:40therapy session for you to start getting

5:41a little more focused because it's like

5:43it sounds like that's what you want even

5:44though that's not what your dayto-day

5:46looks like now. You know you have so

5:47much going on which is epic but you know

5:49it might it might help to be a little

5:51bit more like narrow if that's what you

5:52want.

5:52>> Yeah. No, I I think that's something

5:53that Yeah. Just you know there are

5:55responsibilities and obligations that

5:57you got to like deliver, right? Like I

5:59think part of me it's like stubborn. you

6:00got to just like win and you got to

6:01round up everything that you're involved

6:03with.

6:03>> But like now moving forward, just trim

6:05everything. Just focus, focus, focus.

6:07>> One thing I've learned talking to GPS on

6:08the show and in my own experience as a

6:10GP, your back office is a signal. How

6:13fast you close deals, how clean the LP

6:15experiences, how your K1's land,

6:17investors notice all of it. The more

6:19buttoned up you are, the more likely

6:21they are to give you more money in the

6:22future. That's why I want to talk about

6:24Sidecar. Sidecar is the SPV platform

6:26built for fund managers who want

6:28institutional quality execution without

6:30hiring a full back office team. [music]

6:32They'll review your deal within hours,

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6:36support, and give you transparent

6:37pricing up front. No platform carry.

6:40Also, [music] your LK relationships stay

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6:46should look like it. Sidecar makes that

6:48possible without the overhead. Check

6:50them out at

6:50sidecar.io/partners/trabblazers.

6:53What's your take? So, you're a good

6:54person to ask this too as someone who is

6:56very high IQ. And I think that's pretty

6:57obvious from like the Stanford and the

6:59competitions. Um, but you now operate in

7:02a world where like EQ is everything.

7:04Like you are, and we'll get into this

7:05all, but you're in very much like a

7:07celebrity celebrity adjacent world. Um,

7:09I would argue celebrities are like the

7:11best storytellers and have the highest

7:13EQ, but maybe IQ isn't as relevant.

7:15What's your take on like what actually

7:17matters like now that you're outside the

7:18Stanford bubble, you're in the real

7:19world, you've built companies, you've

7:21invested in so many like what's your

7:23take on IQ versus EQ for the for the

7:26everyday person, what matters more and

7:28and then maybe more specifically what

7:30you look for in founders.

7:31>> Yep. It's a good question cuz I think

7:33that what you have you discount um so I

7:37think like an obvious answer would be

7:39like and and maybe you feel this and we

7:41can talk about just like the dynamics of

7:43like venture investing.

7:44>> Yeah. I think there are a class of

7:47investors who are just mega high IQ,

7:50mega high socialite that do very very

7:52well.

7:52>> You mean that have both?

7:54>> I mean just like max out EQ. Like you're

7:55a socialite.

7:56>> Oh, you're saying just a socialite.

7:57Okay, got it.

7:57>> Like I think the socialite VCs actually

7:59do quite well.

8:00>> Yeah.

8:01>> Um and and why is that? It's because we

8:03are entering like a winner take all

8:05market of like you need to be like the

8:08number one or number two AI company in

8:10its vertical. Everyone else is dead,

8:13right? It's like you make way more to

8:15the extreme.

8:15>> Yeah, it's it's ultra power. And I think

8:17again like maybe an like Uber, you

8:20probably made a lot of money. If you're

8:21an investor in Uber, Lyft, you probably

8:23made okay amount of money. Every other

8:25ride sharing app, zeros. And I think

8:29it's that to the extreme now where you

8:31literally have trillion dollar AI

8:32companies and then there's going to be a

8:34lot of dead bodies. I think all these

8:35Neolabs raising at two billion out of

8:37the gate, there's going to be a lot of

8:38dead bodies there. Um, so like

8:43quoteunquote IQ to see that, hey, this

8:46is like the number one software coding

8:50agent or hey, this is the number one

8:52like legal tech thing or this is the

8:54number one uh accounting agent. I think

8:58that becomes somewhat easy if you're

9:01just in the ecosystem, right? Like,

9:03okay, people really talk up cognition.

9:05Oh, okay. And like, oh, people really

9:07think Scott is a super genius. Like like

9:10like you

9:10>> talk about winning competitions.

9:12>> Yeah.

9:12>> Scott Woo.

9:13>> Yeah. Yeah. So like he was like Math

9:14Count's national champion. I was like a

9:16state level. I was like I so I did a lot

9:18of the similar competitions. Um Yeah.

9:21But like exactly like you're you're in

9:23the scene. You kind of know that like

9:25okay Scott Cognition special company

9:27special business special founder. You

9:30don't need to be super high IQ to just

9:32realize that. So then it's like okay

9:34then how do you win allocation? Then I

9:37think it's a lot of it's EQ, social

9:40butterfly. How do you help that company

9:43accomplish its goals and is that like

9:45you want to do European expansion? Do

9:47you have European banks that you can

9:49intro them to? Are there specific

9:52marketing verticals? You know, for

9:54example, um archive.com, they're looking

9:57to expand into influencer marketing and

9:59creator marketing. We were realizing

10:01that uh anthropic um like Claude

10:04actually uses a lot of influencer

10:06marketing to scale up their actual user

10:08base. It's like a very organic PLG

10:10creator marketing led approach. I don't

10:12think a lot of people actually know

10:12that. It's actually the first time that

10:14comes.

10:14>> I've seen some of that stuff. It's

10:15pretty crazy. So you've seen it. We've

10:17seen it. But it's more recent too. Like

10:18it I mean at least maybe like I wasn't

10:20targeted for it for a while, but like

10:21I've seen it a lot lately.

10:22>> Yeah. So the person running that for

10:24anthropic came from like I think notion

10:26but also had like a lot of like consumer

10:28marketing background

10:29>> and the notion of it makes sense cuz

10:30notion ran that playbook for so long.

10:32>> Exactly. So like just like gluing

10:33together the pieces right I think people

10:35in the broader ecosystem I think you

10:37know we're close with open AI um you

10:41know invested in multiple rounds there

10:44like it's a research driven or right and

10:46then we're just like telling about

10:47clipping and like some some of these

10:49like basic things that we understand

10:50from like community or social side it's

10:52like they're just like blown like blown

10:54away it's like no like you guys have

10:56like literally are have one if of if

10:59could be the most important company in

11:01our generation if not in history. And

11:03it's like the marketing stuff is

11:05actually quite simple, but like they're

11:06so big brain focused on AI research that

11:08they just like were like teaching them a

11:10lot of this stuff. Um, but I think it it

11:14makes sense cuz ultimately technology

11:16should be in service of humans and how

11:18do humans be influenced? I mean, we're

11:20all looking at other humans to help us

11:22taste make and and and truthf find. So,

11:26um, you know, so like, you know, if

11:28we're able to help like someone like

11:29Scott and Cognition like buff up or

11:31OpenAI buff up in those areas,

11:33>> um, which to me like I don't know if

11:36people think that being an influencer or

11:38marketing is like classically super high

11:40IQ.

11:41>> Yeah,

11:41>> I think people don't actually even

11:43though it is.

11:44>> Yeah,

11:44>> that's my that's my take. I think people

11:46think it's woo woo versus they think

11:48engineers are very bright and they think

11:50that's like the tension. It's like

11:51that's where it's like yeah it is like

11:52EQ to understand and and have empathy

11:54towards how to get the message out to

11:56other people but ultimately like you

11:58have to have some intelligence to even

12:00understand that's like an effective

12:01strategy and approach.

12:02>> Totally.

12:03>> But again your question I think like the

12:05socialite VC just like you become a

12:07heat-seeking missile right like I think

12:09maybe that's like the best way to put

12:10it. I think there's like a class of VCs

12:12are just really great heat seeeking

12:14missiles like okay this thing and

12:18number one defense neo prime everyone

12:21just chase it and then it's like

12:22everyone's bombing Palmer Lucky and Trey

12:24Stevens and like begging um and then

12:27it's like who can be the best beggar to

12:28get allocation like like literally

12:30that's like some of the games that are

12:32being played.

12:33>> Well, you're an interesting person to

12:34ask this to because you guys were in

12:36Andrew's recent round. Um, you've done

12:38OpenAI several times, Cerebrris, you

12:41know, like before the IPO. I think you

12:43guys bought some stuff.

12:44>> Like I wanted to get into like the

12:46nitty-gritty of like why do you think

12:48you're winning allocation? Do you think

12:49that you're just better at begging than

12:50everyone else? Do you think it's that

12:52like cuz I think a lot of these

12:53companies at the point that you invest,

12:54it's very obvious if you're in the scene

12:56that they're a hot company. It's like

12:58extremely obvious that like Ander is a

13:00hot company. I think if you don't know

13:01that, then you shouldn't be in tech at

13:03all.

13:04>> Um, so like how are you getting that

13:06allocation? Is it is it the begging? Is

13:07it there's enough room because the

13:08rounds are big? Or is it the like

13:10celebrity GP thing? Because this is the

13:12thing. This is like my thesis. So, I'm

13:14like selfishly asking this.

13:15>> Um

13:17>> I a lot of the like celebrity GP funds,

13:20they have to have a great operators

13:21behind them. It can't just be like a

13:23random famous person.

13:24>> Killer operator plus the celebrity is

13:27like a deadly combo for getting

13:28allocation. And so I wanted to get your

13:30thoughts. Do you think I'm right? Do you

13:32think I'm wrong? How are you getting the

13:33allocation? I think you're directionally

13:36correct. The way I think about it is I

13:38think the VC business is high class

13:41begging.

13:43>> Um

13:44>> it's fancy sales. That's what it is. Or

13:46not so fancy sales I guess cuz it's

13:47begging. So it's like

13:48>> but it's on both sides actually, right?

13:50Cuz I think when people always think of

13:52VCs as investors, but as you know like

13:55we're also begging LPs

13:57>> to get the capital to then go beg the

13:59best founders to give them that capital.

14:01But obviously I I think

14:04It's obviously tongue and cheek. Um, but

14:07there's truth to that that like this is

14:09like the highest form of begging. Um,

14:12but I but but I think it's but so

14:15there's truth to that. But I think

14:17really it's how do you

14:22I think the way I think described is

14:24that like there's just a cap table that

14:26there's a 100% ownership of a business

14:30and you need to show why you're more

14:32value ad than the incremental dollar

14:34from any other person. And I think most

14:37VCs have zero value ad.

14:41>> You wouldn't know it from their website

14:42though. You wouldn't know it. They all

14:43say value ad. And but I think if people

14:46were just more honest like, "Hey, I'm

14:47just loading up money, that's like a

14:50pretty good product because everyone

14:52needs money." So I I think if you're

14:54just like super authentic of what the

14:57direct value ad is. I think a lot of the

15:00crossover hedge fund guys that are just

15:02moving billions of dollars, it is really

15:05hard to like fire $2 billion or $1

15:07billion at a time, right? And I think

15:09that there's people talking about these

15:11like SPV bros running around

15:13>> and it's probably like seen as like

15:16distasteful for a lot of like true

15:18operators or true founders or true

15:20investors is oh you're just like running

15:22around cobbling to their random high net

15:25worth individuals and like moving $100

15:27million.

15:29I think to a founder it's like I don't

15:31super care where the money comes from if

15:33like I don't expect any value ad. I just

15:36need like a billion dollars. If you can

15:38make it really easy to just dump a

15:40billion dollars and you're fast, it's

15:43that's like enough of value ad. So if

15:46that's your offer,

15:46>> that's when the capital's so high that

15:49you can't get it many places. Like

15:50that's like the billion dollar. I mean,

15:52that's like insane. I'm talking I'm also

15:53talking a little bit more like gross

15:55stage, medium size, or maybe they aren't

15:57raising such crazy rounds and there is a

15:59lot of people that could contribute to

16:01the round, you know, like like we'll do

16:03like you guys just did like a B, like

16:04you guys just did like Monaco's B. We'll

16:06give that as an example. like like

16:08pretty hot round.

16:08>> Yeah.

16:09>> You know, but like you know there's a

16:10lot of people that could have written

16:11checks into that, you know, like how are

16:13you getting continued allocation cuz I

16:15think it's easier. I hear you on like

16:16these like giant rounds like anyone that

16:18has a billion dollars like thank you,

16:19I'll take that. It's hard to cobble that

16:21>> but like it continues to be this like

16:24growth stage where these like celebrity

16:26GPS get their allocation when other

16:28folks get iced out that have strong

16:30networks, decades of experience in the

16:32business.

16:33>> Um

16:34>> Yeah. Yeah. And so like my pitch is like

16:36basically okay these arc types of

16:38companies you have a founders fund, a

16:41lux capital, a sequoia, a benchmark in

16:44the mix and you can take an incremental

16:47dollar from them or people that

16:50basically look exactly like them.

16:52>> Mhm.

16:53>> Right. Like if you have a Silicon Valley

16:55named brand firm and some Wall Street

16:57people named brand firms, the next dude

17:00in a suit is basically the same network

17:04and value ad as what you already have.

17:06>> It's a good point. They're all like

17:07slightly similar iterations.

17:08>> Oh, they're they're the same. I like I

17:10have my favorite one like people that I

17:13do a lot of business with and like but

17:16they're basically the same as everybody

17:17else, but I love them because like we we

17:18made a lot of money together. But like I

17:20think their value ad is the same. Like

17:22what do people value? It's like, okay,

17:23I'll do like I'll help you with

17:25recruiting. I'll help you with customer

17:26intros, but it's the same pool of

17:28people, right? Like they're same

17:30background, same cities, same

17:33experiences, and same playbooks. So, I

17:35think it's actually quite easy for us.

17:38And I think, you know, I would say

17:40there's like a few I would say, you

17:41know, like I think Alex Paul, Chain

17:42Smokers Madness, I think does a good

17:44job. There's a few a few of us that

17:46>> I think are doing it in in a smart way.

17:49>> I mean, it's you guys and Alex.

17:50>> Yeah. Bas basically. Well, there's

17:52others. We want any others. We want, but

17:54like it's you guys that get into these

17:56like

17:56>> hot Oh, Ashton Kutcher is doing a good

17:58job.

17:58>> Sound S sound is great. I think sound

18:00was like the original version of this.

18:03Um,

18:04>> they also did open air really early.

18:06>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and

18:07yeah, I think they're smart. I think

18:09like a Yeah. I I like one anecdote I

18:12don't know that Ashton told me was that

18:16he took the Steve Jobs role to be a

18:19better investor.

18:21like he picked that movie role because

18:23he wanted to look smarter

18:25>> and

18:25>> in everyone's eyes in like the

18:27consumer's eyes or because he wanted to

18:28learn about Steve's mentality

18:31>> in like the re in the founders's eyes

18:33cuz like okay if you're Steve if you are

18:35just like Steve Jobs for like that year

18:38when the movie comes out and like oh

18:39that's he kind of like it's Steve Jobs

18:43Ashton Kutcher thing

18:45>> or the last time you saw his face was

18:46when you watched the Steve Jobs movie

18:48you like he literally was like yeah I he

18:51makes more money on his investments than

18:53his than he's made in his entertainment

18:54career. And he's like he's like, "Yeah,

18:56I

18:56>> I pick my roles to like make myself a

18:59better investor because it's just

19:02straight distribution for him.

19:03>> Makes perfect sense." And so much of

19:05it's also just like that pattern match

19:06that people have subconsciously of like

19:07they saw him be this like big CEO, very

19:09contrarian CEO. So when he's that as an

19:11investor, it's like, "Oh, oh, I get it.

19:13>> Yeah, I like I like you." Yeah. I mean,

19:15I think I think that's where I think

19:16long form content is really good cuz

19:18like they know you or like especially

19:20like a propagandized version, right? Cuz

19:22movies make you really cool.

19:24>> Mhm.

19:25>> Um

19:25>> I love this take though that it's

19:27actually less about like the celebrity

19:28piece that's just like one route, but

19:29it's having different sources of

19:31capital. It's like different network. I

19:35think that's like the main pitch. It's

19:36like, okay, you got to get some clout

19:38cool people in your network,

19:40>> right? cuz I I don't So like I don't

19:41fight cuz I can't beat Sequoa or Andre

19:44in their game.

19:45>> Yeah. So you play your own game.

19:47>> So we create a new game that we educate

19:49and I think they and I think people like

19:51us will have outside share because I

19:53think

19:55we relate to this generation of founders

19:58better cuz they grew up in this culture

20:00of content, social media, podcasts,

20:03clips, long form, short form. Um, I

20:07think like and I think one thing I've

20:09just seen consistently with both Jake

20:11Paul and Logan Paul is that like all

20:14these founders who are 18 to 25 grew up

20:17watching them on YouTube. So it's just

20:19like

20:20>> you'll always get the meeting. That's

20:21the other thing.

20:22>> Yeah. So yes, we always get the meeting.

20:24>> You might not win your allocation like

20:26hopefully you do, but you're getting the

20:27meeting no matter what.

20:28>> Yeah, we'll get a meeting and we'll get

20:29something.

20:30>> We might not get like, you know,

20:31everything we want, but we'll get

20:33something.

20:34>> Yeah. Um and so I think a lot of what I

20:36think about is like okay like I can run

20:39this repeatably but if I if we want

20:42Antifund to be just a true institution

20:44then we also need to step up on all the

20:46value added services and also just drive

20:49value and not just like win the aloe and

20:51disappear and have like a little

20:52celebrity photo

20:54>> actually drive enterprise value.

20:55>> Well this is like the marketing stuff

20:56you were talking about I mean what

20:57you're doing with archive like alone is

20:59just a lot to help with the other the

21:01other folks.

21:01>> If you're building in public sharing

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21:05your network, you need a newsletter. And

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21:59for 30% off your first 3 months. So, I

22:01have a confession. I used to be a

22:03compulsive notetaker. Every single

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23:06That's granola.ai/trablazers.

23:08I wanted to talk to you a little bit

23:09about like your strategy. So, this is

23:10like me like nerdy venture stuff, but

23:12you guys have a $30 million fund. Um,

23:14but you're obviously doing the andal

23:16stuff, the OpenAI stuff, the Cerebra

23:18stuff.

23:19>> Um, and then you're also you've founded

23:21a lot of companies which I want to talk

23:22about next. Um, are those incubations

23:25are those side things? Like talk to me a

23:26little bit about the structure. How are

23:28you getting into these deals? Is it SPVS

23:30you're doing? Um, is the 30 million just

23:32fully like early checks? Like talk to me

23:34about the allocation.

23:35>> Yeah. Um,

23:37I I'll just say this. The announced $30

23:40million fund is pretty outdated old

23:43news. Um, we used it as a way to just

23:45like announce Logan joining as a GP. Um,

23:49we have,

23:51uh, I, you, you know, still closing out

23:53some of the the paperwork, but we have a

23:56growth strategy, a dedicated growth

23:57fund, and, you know, additional early

24:00stage vehicles. So,

24:02>> is it all one vehicle or you doing two

24:04vehicles?

24:04>> Yeah, multiple vehicles now. Um, and

24:07then for our early stage fund, um, we'll

24:11do our own incubations.

24:14Um,

24:14>> I knew that was coming. Like, I know you

24:15haven't talked about it, but I could

24:16just with your personality, it makes

24:18total sense.

24:19>> Yeah.

24:21I I mean, I think I think both Jake and

24:23Logan and myself, we just like building

24:26stuff. So, I think

24:27>> Yeah.

24:27>> Um, so we're we're there's a lot of

24:30ideas that we're like looking at and and

24:32and and building companies around. So,

24:34you know, the first two incubations

24:36we've done together are better. It's a

24:38sports gaming business. Um, it's got a

24:41social casino that's like ripping. So,

24:43you and and there's like a a big

24:46partnership with Poly Market. So, that's

24:48business doing well. We launched a men's

24:50personal care brand. Um, W

24:53>> I saw that. Yeah.

24:54>> Deodorant body spray kind of like an Axe

24:56Old Spice direct competitor. Um, and

24:59just really, you know, a fresh new look

25:01for like just driving like young male

25:04confidence because I think that like a

25:05lot of like the marketing that we saw

25:07was just like almost androgynous and

25:09just like kind of

25:12very just like neutered

25:14form of just communicating to the next

25:16generation of young men. Um, and we felt

25:18strongly in terms of just having like a

25:19a different way to speak to that next

25:21generation. Um, yeah. So, I I think

25:25there's, you know, Logan's got something

25:27called RIP in the collectible space

25:29that's launching soon. So, those like

25:31we're excited about because I think

25:32there's such a good overlap on our

25:35audience, our knowhow, and like in

25:37markets that we we feel like we we care

25:39about and think are are important and

25:41large. Um, but like we've become like

25:45increasingly programmatic in terms of

25:47our just our investment process. So,

25:49we'll do 250k initial checks and then uh

25:542 million plus conviction checks out of

25:56our early stage uh fund and then from

25:58our

25:58>> do you skip any rounds or you would do

26:00like a preede a seed and a b or do you

26:02like kind of skip one of those like

26:03middle

26:04>> um

26:04>> cuz I see that a lot now why that's why

26:06I ask cuz like a lot of folks will do

26:08like preede seed and then they kind of

26:10like don't want to really compete at the

26:11A and they want to wait for more

26:11traction so maybe they'll come in at

26:12like the B or the C. No, I I I think if

26:15we're going to double down, I think

26:17we'll triple down, quadruple down,

26:18quadruple down.

26:19>> Keep going.

26:20>> Yeah. All the way up.

26:21>> Yes. I mean, I think it's just like

26:23actually quite hard to raise those

26:25rounds actually. Right. Like I think

26:27there's a lot of

26:28>> And I

26:29>> Which rounds? The growth rounds.

26:31>> I think the chasm from C to A is very

26:34steep. So,

26:35>> especially now.

26:36>> Yeah. Right. Especially right. I think

26:37again we're going this really strange

26:39power law dynamic.

26:41>> But you're always going to be

26:42participatory. sounding like like you're

26:44not trying to be the lead check

26:45necessarily if you're doing a 250k first

26:48check

26:48>> and $2 million plus, you know, in like

26:50an an A or a B.

26:52>> Yeah.

26:52>> You're still not trying to be interest.

26:55>> You're trying to be their friends and

26:56you're trying to just like get a piece,

26:58>> have this really interesting new network

27:00>> on the founders cap table and partner

27:02with them all the way up the stack.

27:03>> Yeah, 100%. Yeah, I would say like the

27:04incubations were much more of a control

27:06position, right? Just from the founding

27:08and just the like initial seed capital.

27:10Yeah. Um, we'll have ball control there.

27:12But usually, yeah, for our [snorts]

27:15>> I would say that like we're starting

27:17just, you know, we do a lot with Lux

27:19Capital, Brandon Reeves. He's just, you

27:21should have him on. He he's a legend.

27:23>> Yeah.

27:24>> Um,

27:25>> you know, we do a lot with Arman at

27:26Human Capital.

27:28>> We do a lot with um Trey and Deliant at

27:30Founders Fund. So, like there's

27:32>> Delian came on a few weeks ago.

27:33>> Yeah. So I feel like there's just like,

27:35you know, some folks that we just gotten

27:37to know, build a track record, mutual

27:39track record with, and

27:40>> so like, you know, so

27:44we're we're so I would say that like

27:47yeah, I I guess like we're not

27:49necessarily designed now to just be like

27:51leading these rounds, but I think from a

27:54co-lead or just a strong participation

27:56check, we're like that's what we like to

27:58do. And maybe eventually and or maybe

28:00just very shortly, yeah, we'll we'll

28:02want to just continue to scale and lead.

28:04Um, and on the growth side, right, we'll

28:05do like 5 to $30 million plus checks and

28:08just like

28:10just hammer the winners.

28:11>> Love it. Pile it in. It's kind of like a

28:13Thrive vibe, too, where it's just like

28:15you keep going and keep going and keep

28:16going. Like I think they have done a

28:18great job at showing that like when you

28:20have conviction in a company, you just

28:21like do not stop funding it all the way

28:22up the

28:22>> stack. when people ask us like who do we

28:25model ourselves to like yeah I think

28:27being deemed a celebrity fun is kind of

28:29a dissing

28:31>> um okay

28:32>> because I don't we don't like yeah

28:37obviously Jake's celeb he doesn't he

28:38doesn't need to be told he's a celeb VC

28:40or Logan's obviously a celebrity he

28:42doesn't need to be told that it's like

28:43no no we're we're in the capital

28:46business and we just want to be the best

28:48investors we can be

28:50>> totally

28:51>> um and I so like I say that Like I like

28:53what Josh Kushner does and I like what

28:55Neil Meta does with Green Oaks. Like and

28:58I think the biggest mistakes that we've

29:00made is just not hammering our winners.

29:02>> Mhm. And that's what everyone says.

29:03That's always

29:04>> Yeah. So then then So that's why we like

29:05again just you can't make the same

29:06mistake again. That's why like that's

29:08why like hey we we're just we're not

29:09just like skipping rounds. We're

29:11doubling tripling quadrupling

29:12quadrupling down every single round on

29:14our the companies and the founders that

29:16we like to work with.

29:16>> Yeah. Neil's insane too. Neil at Green

29:19Oaks. I mean, that's a great comp and it

29:20makes sense because it is just so high

29:22conviction.

29:23>> Um, how did you meet Logan and Jake?

29:25Like, how did this idea for a fund come

29:26together? Talk to me about that.

29:28>> Uh, yeah, funny. Definitely like an

29:32interesting story. So, Jake and I

29:34originally connected probably 10, 11

29:37years ago. So, he was 17, 18,

29:41like I think he was already like a

29:42YouTube star. Um,

29:45and do you know Cory Levy Zfellows?

29:48>> Of course. And so like Cy took Jake to

29:52Silicon Valley. So we joke

29:53>> like 10 11 years ago kind of thing.

29:54>> Yes. So we joke that Jake Paul was like

29:57>> the OG fellow original cuz like Cory

30:00didn't have Zfellows. I mean but

30:02>> but he's always like the young stars you

30:04know Zfellow's thing for people who

30:05don't know they they really support sort

30:06of this like up and cominging talent.

30:08>> Yeah. So Jake Paul is literally OG like

30:11patient zero Zfellow.

30:13>> That's so funny. Um, so I knew Corey

30:15just, you know, also just kind of like

30:18in in that kind of ecosystem of because

30:20I think he's like here now, right? But

30:22like he was spending a lot of time in

30:22San Francisco. I think he's all over the

30:24place. But um, so Jake had his idea for

30:28his first startup, but he fell in love

30:29like all the tech startups, you know, he

30:31was like visiting Uber, Twitter, Google,

30:33all this stuff that was like like the

30:34cool companies 10 11 years ago. And he's

30:37like, I should do startups. like I think

30:39he's always been like quite commercial

30:41and like quite entrepreneurial. Um, so I

30:45meet him to consider investing in Team

30:4810, which was his first startup, which

30:51was like the world's first like social

30:54media label.

30:55>> And were you going to be like an angel?

30:56Is that kind of how

30:56>> So he was raising his like first million

30:58dollars to do his like team 10 uh seed

31:01round.

31:02>> Um, we didn't do business at the time,

31:04but like a lot of my friends did. Um,

31:08so we connected then and then in 2021

31:10during the pandemic

31:12like I had started spending a lot more

31:14time in Miami. Um, and then Jake also

31:18decamped from Calabasas to Miami. And

31:20this is going to sound like the most

31:21like

31:23Miami COVID story, but um,

31:28uh, Lucy Guo

31:29>> Mhm.

31:30>> and Alena Salanak um, she's Chris

31:34Dixon's wife. Okay. Okay.

31:35>> So, I knew Chris Dixon. Chris Dixon was

31:37actually an angel, a lead seed investor

31:39in Keton IQ back in the day. Um they

31:42were hosting like this party at um

31:46manager Miles's house. So, he runs Palm

31:48Tree Crew.

31:50>> With Kigo.

31:50>> Yeah.

31:51>> Um

31:52>> Miles Shear, right?

31:52>> Yeah. Miles Shear. Yeah. Love Miles.

31:55He's great. Um

31:56>> you're kind of like already in the

31:57scene.

31:58>> Not really.

31:59>> But that's like the scene though. That's

32:00like

32:01>> Yeah, but I was but but like I was on

32:03the nerd side because like Lucy was also

32:06>> more she's obviously cool but like I

32:10think she came so it was like this weird

32:12combination of like the Silicon Valley

32:14nerds combined with like the

32:15entertainment people and everyone was

32:18>> look you've all become that now like you

32:19and Lucy are now the like entertainment

32:21[laughter] also nerds.

32:22>> Yeah. So I think I don't Yeah, it would

32:25but the Yeah, I would say like the

32:27worlds have mixed and and and and

32:28merged, but um

32:31like so like it was like a bunch like

32:34like my my friends started ramp so it

32:36was like so like me and the ramp

32:38founders like

32:39>> Eric or Kareem? Which one?

32:40>> Um Eric was there. So I actually so like

32:44I I met Kareem and uh you know and and

32:50Zach Frankle at an MIT high school

32:52summer camp called RSI. So it's like a

32:54super nerd, super selective camp for

32:56like the top 50 or top 75 like science

32:59research high school competitors. So

33:00we're like all a lot of my peer set

33:02there were like winning the

33:03international science fairs and and like

33:04the seammen's Westinghouse competitions.

33:07Um, so, so like I guess I got into the

33:10VC game because I was the first an my

33:12first angel investment ever was in

33:14Parabus, which was the precursor company

33:16to RAMP. So like my I feel like my

33:19biggest like angel clout brag is giving

33:24Parabus, Eric Lyman, and Karematia the

33:26YC recommendation because they were

33:28Harvard guys. I was like already

33:30starting, you know, I I went to YC right

33:33after Stanford. So they were like, "Oh,

33:36h how do we do this startup thing?"

33:37Because they were like I think I think

33:38Eric was a consultant and I think Kareem

33:41I think they were both consultants

33:43actually. Um but they wanted to get into

33:46the entrepreneurship game. So I was like

33:47giving them a little feedback and like

33:49pushing them on [snorts] shipping

33:51faster. I think like we Kareem I still

33:53talk about like you were like helpful to

33:54just like push them to ship cuz they

33:56were like very scared to like [snorts]

33:57push live. Um, but anyways, I was I was

34:00like staying with the ramp guys actually

34:02when I was in Miami and um so we show up

34:06at this Miami party thing and I it was

34:11like some tech people and then um like

34:15some like random celebrity type people

34:17like some DJs, some NFL players and Jake

34:20Paul

34:20>> and the beauty of Miami

34:22>> and then and then just reconnected with

34:24Jake at that at that party and we follow

34:26up and he I think he was at an

34:28interesting transition in his career

34:30because I think at the time he was

34:32pretty burnt out as a YouTuber. Like I

34:35think his story was that like he got

34:38super big through doing like a day like

34:40he was one of the first daily vloggers.

34:42So I think he did like a thousand plus

34:46days in a row of just like shipping like

34:48long form vlogs. And I think the nature

34:52of that game is that you got to do more

34:53extreme, more absurd things

34:56>> to like keep that momentum and pace

34:58going. And I think he was just like

34:59burnt out. He just

35:01>> couldn't do more stupid clownish stuff

35:05>> cuz I remember like the first

35:06conversation, hey, like what's your like

35:08favorite YouTub

35:13[laughter]

35:14[snorts]

35:15we we rec catch up and he had three

35:17goals that year. He wanted to box three

35:20times and be a pro boxer. Um, he wanted

35:23to do the splits. I And like And I think

35:26the reason for that is like Logan's

35:28first viral video was like doing the

35:30splits

35:30>> and he wanted to beat his brother.

35:32>> Yeah. I think he, you know, I think he

35:33wanted to like also do the splits and

35:35then he wanted to start a VC firm.

35:36>> And how did he even know like I guess it

35:38was that COVID cryptoy kind of like hypy

35:41time where VC was really popular? Well,

35:42I think just since that like uh team 10

35:45and like kind of angel investing and

35:47like

35:48>> so we got like the startup bug and kind

35:49of just like kept

35:50>> so I think I think it was since he was

35:52like 17 18 like he he had that bug but I

35:55don't think he had like the

35:57infrastructure and like the people

35:59around like the partner to like actually

36:01like go for it like in earnest. So, I

36:04think it was like just very interesting

36:06timing from my end and his end because

36:09again I I haven't talked about it like

36:11on a on a show but like this like I

36:15started wanting to be a VC versus being

36:17an angel investor because I was staying

36:20in the same

36:22um like you know same like hotel suite

36:26in in Miami Beach as the ramp guys and I

36:30just saw all the VCs come like pray at

36:32the ramp altar.

36:34Mhm.

36:34>> Cuz people were like, "Oh, like got to

36:36invest in rent." So I was like, I was

36:37just like, so I I was sitting in San

36:39Francisco in my place and it was just

36:41like super grim. January 2021,

36:45folks that were in San Francisco in that

36:47era, it was like just super shut down,

36:49super grim, right? California is a very

36:50harsh lockdown. Like nothing was going

36:52on. I was Zach calls me and he's like,

36:54"Yo, we just have x spare bedroom. Just

36:56like come hang out." I'm like, "Uh,

36:58okay. Just book a fight. Got out Friday

37:00and just come hang out for the weekend."

37:02And I was like, "Oh man, like one like

37:04business is on. Like Miami is popping."

37:07Like

37:08I it felt like super like I just

37:10remember like walking into Miami and

37:12like people were like dressed up in like

37:14cocktail dresses and like people were

37:16like out and I'm like in SF like in a

37:18hood like you're just like scared to

37:20like see anybody, right? Like what a

37:22what a crazy like

37:24>> whiplash. Yeah.

37:25>> And then I just saw all these VCs like

37:28just trying to like hang out with the

37:30ramp boys and I was like, "Oh man, like

37:33I should double down. I should try to

37:35invest more in this thing." Um,

37:37>> so it kind of made you realize, I mean,

37:38this is part of us saying like when

37:39you're kind of like in the no, you kind

37:41of realize that like, oh wow, this is

37:42like a hot company and like I already

37:44know them, so like maybe I could be good

37:45at this because you already have some of

37:47the relationships. Clearly, if you're at

37:49this party, they're wanting to hang out

37:50with you and all these other VCs are

37:52like dying to get more allocation, spend

37:54time with them, all that.

37:55>> Exactly. Yeah. And I think I like again,

37:57I think I'm an accidental VC. I I think

37:59of myself as more of a founder

38:01entrepreneur, right? I was just angel

38:02investing my friends companies. And I

38:03think usually as an angel investor,

38:05you're just like

38:06>> here's 25K or you know, like I want to

38:09support you, have fun, and then you just

38:11like wait 10 years and you get hope you

38:13pray to get some money back, right? Um,

38:16and I think I think that was like a

38:18formational

38:19like learning experience where it's like

38:22like there's few things that work and

38:26the things that really work you should

38:28spend like your time, capital focus on

38:32those things that really work. So I

38:34think that was just like the kind of

38:36like the combination of just like things

38:37percolating in my mind in terms of

38:39instantiating antifund cuz like okay

38:41Jake I thought was really interesting

38:45like cuz he was 24 at the time right and

38:47I think a lot of my friends were like ah

38:50you know you should just do yourself or

38:52don't partner but I thought he was very

38:55wise at the time I think he realized

38:58that celebrity was very fleeting and I

39:01think he knew that Um,

39:05like there's a big difference being rich

39:06and having some brand deals and

39:07sponsorships and like being truly

39:09wealthy, right? Like the richest, most

39:11powerful people own companies

39:14by founding them or like investing into

39:17them.

39:17>> I mean, it's like your Ashton Kutcher

39:18comment like he's made more money from

39:20his investments than all of his acting

39:21career that we all know him for. Yes.

39:23>> Combined. For sure. So then I think it's

39:24like I so I thought he was like Jake was

39:26actually quite wise quite astute in

39:28terms of like one just like the nature

39:30of celebrity and a nature of attention

39:31and then two just like

39:33>> that shared like understanding that like

39:36if we're playing the capitalism game

39:39which is a money accumulation game then

39:42you just got to like know which layer of

39:44that stack to play

39:46>> and like do you want to just take a a

39:48million dollar cash sponsorship or like

39:50hey no no no I'm going to buy into your

39:52company and be on the app people, right?

39:55Like you like I think most celebrities

39:57don't get it. I think most celebrities

39:59just get used to being given free stuff,

40:03but like they're actually the sucker in

40:05a lot of ways cuz like the free stuff is

40:07in trade of your clout, which by

40:09definition has to have more ROI for the

40:11company, otherwise they wouldn't give

40:13you that money.

40:14>> Yeah.

40:15>> Right. And I think celebrities don't

40:16understand that math trade. Oh, you're

40:18giving me a million dollars to show up

40:19this thing. Okay, cool.

40:21By definition, if that company is not

40:23going to go bankrupt, they should be

40:25making $3 million, if not more, off of

40:28that deal. So then it's like, okay, we

40:30should be playing on the equity

40:32ownership side of of the game. And I

40:33think that that like shared view on how

40:38the world works, how capitalism works.

40:40Um,

40:42you know, we we align and we started

40:45Antifund.

40:45>> That's so epic. Yeah. I think people

40:47don't realize how much the house is

40:48really built towards the business like

40:50versus the individual. Like that's just

40:51kind of how capitalism works. It's

40:53always meant to benefit the business.

40:54Whenever you're in doubt,

40:56>> pro business. That's the answer. The

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42:00Okay, so a quick experiment. Think about

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43:13I want to ask you two quick questions.

43:14One, anti-und like the name sick. Give

43:16me the TLDDR on that.

43:18>> The credit to anti-fund name goes to

43:21Jake. I think Jake is just again that's

43:24one of I think his special powers. I

43:25think he's like really good taste,

43:26really good consumer fuel. Um, you know,

43:30he he sent me anti-und and a couple

43:32other options. It was like anti- fun

43:34like that that like

43:36I I like [snorts] I knew we had to just

43:40own

43:42the

43:45the brazeness or like the the weirdness

43:47of having like an internet YouTube

43:50boxer,

43:52you know, multi-hyphenate be like a like

43:54a like a VCGP. Well, it's also just like

43:57this totally separate network concept

43:59you're talking about sort of like anti-

44:01what you think of as the funds, you know

44:02what I mean? Like all the kind of

44:04wearing the suits, been around the

44:05block, Silicon Valley, like

44:07>> you guys are the opposite of that. So,

44:09it's a different network. I think it's

44:10really obvious, but and I think we've

44:11like and I think the name is so

44:13important. Um I think a being high in

44:16the alpha uh alphabetical order is very

44:19interesting. I think like the four

44:21letters and four letters is like very

44:23symmetric in terms of how it looks. Um,

44:25so I think in terms of a lot of like the

44:27details and just in terms of the name

44:28and the branding and I think we've just

44:30like doubled down in that brand that I

44:32think was like a really great just like

44:33founding decision cuz I think what our

44:36miss like I think most investors have no

44:39purpose other than making money like

44:42that's the truth right like VC is a

44:44money-making business like you're here

44:46like you're you are given LP dollars to

44:48make give them more LP you return LP

44:51dollars for like their endowment or just

44:52rich people to get richer Right. It's

44:55just like a

44:57I don't I don't have no moral judgment

44:58on it, but that's just like the truth of

45:00the underlying business. Um,

45:03so I think a lot of these VC firms have

45:04like meaningless names like or just

45:06super generico names.

45:08>> Do you think that there's like a

45:09secondary or a tertiary reason for

45:11venture to exist or for like a firm to

45:12exist? Like you say, it's just

45:13money-making and I agree like that's

45:15everyone's north star. Make LP's money.

45:17Yep. It all comes back to that. That's

45:19all that matters. But are you guys do

45:20you have like a secondary or a tertiary

45:22goal with either the name anti- fund or

45:24with the investing strategy? Is it like

45:26trying to educate people on like

45:27entrepreneurship? Is it just like you

45:29know building cooler things, more

45:31connected things? Like is there anything

45:33beyond making money? Cuz obviously for

45:34all of us

45:35>> I I think it's like being anti means

45:37like being super self-aware about it and

45:39super authentic about it, right? Because

45:41I think it's like if you're just like

45:44generico general generico like tree or

45:47something, right? You know, right? like

45:50like those or like someone's last name

45:52like those don't really mean anything.

45:54>> Mhm.

45:55>> Like there's no inherent meaning behind

45:57someone's last name or a tree type. Um

46:03so I think by forcing a name that means

46:06being iconoclastic, being rebellious,

46:09being against the grain, um forces us to

46:13live up to that standard that we are

46:16naming ourselves to. Um,

46:18>> like there's clear values that come from

46:19it. I I mean I agree with you. That's

46:21why I chose the name I did. Like I think

46:22you want it to be stand for something

46:23bigger than just you.

46:25>> Yeah.

46:25>> And hopefully maybe it's even like a

46:27change you want to see in the industry

46:28at scale.

46:29>> Yeah. Or or or like and I think cuz

46:31people are going to make money and I

46:33think it's generally a good thing,

46:34right? Like people get money because

46:36they've provided something that other

46:37people want, right? So like I'm super

46:40pro capitalist. I think it that just

46:42drives all the progress. But I think if

46:46all money is equal, you want the people

46:50allocating that money to have cultural

46:54vibes and values that align to

46:59like what you see more of in the world,

47:02right? Cuz like if you're a founder and

47:04you're going to make yourself rich and

47:06you're going to make your VCs rich,

47:08that's the goal. Then ideally like the

47:12VCs that you help make rich also have

47:14values that you want to see more in the

47:16world.

47:17>> And by the way LPS too like that's what

47:18I always say too is like I know I'm

47:20going to make a lot of money so I want

47:22my LPS to be rich. I want them to be

47:24good people. Like it's all money is

47:26green. And so it's like I want to make

47:27rich great people rich not any people

47:29rich.

47:30>> Yes. because then hopefully they use

47:31that incremental dollars to, you know,

47:34push missions, push products, push

47:36values that we think is like better for

47:38your, you know, our communities, our our

47:40country, just the world. So, um, so I

47:43think it's just like that like flying

47:44that like pirate flag of like, hey,

47:46we're anti- kind of traditional way

47:49things are done is just really

47:51important. Like I think VC by definition

47:54means like you got to be super long the

47:56future and super short legacy.

48:00What do you mean by that short legacy?

48:02>> Like we're betting that the next

48:04generation of young people are going to

48:06build better than the old people.

48:08>> Like if you don't believe that, then you

48:13get out of VC, get out of like startups,

48:15right? Just go work at an old company,

48:17you know, do do the ways that things

48:18have done been done in the past. Um, so

48:21I think just having that like really

48:22strong clarion call for like, hey, we

48:24want people that aren't afraid to like

48:26up and like

48:27>> break things because by definition, you

48:30have to break how things are done in the

48:31past to make a startup work.

48:33>> Totally. Totally. And you have to be

48:34naive enough often to like really

48:36believe that you can.

48:37>> Yeah.

48:37>> I love it. I want to hear about ketone

48:38before we go to our our like lightning

48:40round.

48:40>> Yeah. So, this company you started, you

48:42brought us um I feel like I'll drink it

48:45later

48:46>> cuz it's going to be hard to open, but

48:47like tell us this is a company you

48:48started

48:49>> 12 years ago. Ketone IQ Energy Shots.

48:52Like give us the TLDDR on what this is

48:54for. Um it's basically I think it's like

48:57supplement to like caffeine or like some

48:58other kind of energy supplement that you

49:01would take, right?

49:02>> Yeah. Um

49:02>> tell me.

49:03>> Well, ketones came from a military

49:05research program to enhance soldier

49:06performance. You probably heard of keto

49:08diet or fasting.

49:08>> Of course. Of course. Yeah. So like the

49:10way ketones work is that when you're

49:12fasted, your body runs through its sugar

49:14reserves and starts converting fats into

49:16its fuel. But the brain only can take

49:20small molecules through the blood brain

49:23barrier. And fatty acids like fat is

49:25like too big of a molecule to cross into

49:27the into the brain. So mammals evolved a

49:30way to create um ketones as like a very

49:34small molecule that's very efficient for

49:36the brain. So usually, so like I got I

49:39got really into like fasting about 10

49:41years ago. So Michael and I, uh the CEO

49:44of Keton IQ, my my co-founder, um we

49:48started like one of the largest Silicon

49:50Valley fasting groups. So, if you like

49:52Google like 2016 era like Silicon Valley

49:55weird people doing fasting, there's like

49:58news articles and like TV crews like

50:00filming us not eating, which I which is

50:02kind of r like which means like we're

50:04just like which is kind of like nothing.

50:06>> You guys just standing Yeah. It's like

50:08that's not very entertaining to watch.

50:10>> Yeah. Like like or we would do like

50:12these break fasts like what is what is

50:14breakfast? It's like breaking your fast.

50:16Yeah.

50:16>> Um, so ketones are just what's in here

50:20is that you can drink ketones directly.

50:22So you don't need to be fast or carb

50:24restricted to have the benefits of

50:26ketones.

50:27>> That's sick. Okay, cool. And you have

50:28another CEO in place now. So you're like

50:30not spending as much time on this or how

50:31much time do you spend on this company?

50:32>> Um, yeah. So my co-founder, so I was the

50:34founding I was founder CEO. Um, and then

50:37handed the reigns to my co-founder who

50:38is, uh, Michael Brandt. Um, who's been

50:41running it for the last, you know, five

50:42plus years and he's killing it. um you

50:46know 60 mil run rate hopefully break

50:48into nine figures later this year and

50:51just scaling like nationwide target big

50:53e-com

50:54>> you're the number one ketone supplement

50:55like you guys are like for sure

50:57>> crushing

50:58>> yeah yeah

50:58>> well thanks for my my free ketone I

51:01appreciate it I'm going to try later

51:02>> I know you're not a grape fan we were

51:04talking about this before but

51:05>> you know I'm openminded though I support

51:06you so I'll put my grape flavor profile

51:09aside I'm more of like a strawberry or

51:11like a raspberry more of a red flavor

51:13>> we have a raspberry lemon It's actually

51:15one of my favorites. I'll also do some.

51:16>> Oh, okay. I want raspberry lemonade.

51:17That's more me, but I would still try

51:18this. Okay.

51:19>> I love it. Okay, let's get into our

51:20lightning round.

51:21>> Yeah, I'm going to shoot one.

51:22>> Yeah, shoot one now. Why not?

51:23>> Cuz like basically I feel like it's

51:24really good for like workouts or

51:25actually like really good for podcast or

51:27conversations cuz it just kind of gets

51:28you like locked in.

51:29>> Yeah, I love it. Okay, we'll lock in for

51:30this lightning round. Okay. Uh, let me

51:32know the first answer that comes to

51:34mind. Book in hand or podcast in ears?

51:36>> I like Steven Bartlett. He's a partner

51:38with Keton IQ. Um, and

51:40>> that's a good one. He does a great Diary

51:41CEO.

51:41>> Yeah, Diary CEO. Great. I I mean he's

51:44just also like super smart business

51:46person investor. So I just I I like

51:50[snorts] to me it's like he's not just

51:51like an author or a creative like he's

51:53really thoughtful around just like media

51:55as a way for business. So I think I

51:57relate to him not just as a content

51:59creator but like you know he's like a

52:01hold co and all this stuff. Um

52:03>> and people don't know that but he's

52:04actually like an investor like he has

52:05got like Flight Fund I think it's called

52:07right.

52:07>> Yeah exactly. Yeah. Like one of my

52:09favorite like

52:11uh Jesse Michaels American Alchemy, he

52:14does like the super he does like 4hour

52:16interviews with like ex CIA scientists

52:19about aliens. So if you really want to

52:21just like super veg out Friday, you

52:24know, Friday night, you want to go out,

52:25you want to just like learn about

52:26esoteric physics and like alien

52:28conspiracy theories, Jesse Michaels is

52:31awesome.

52:32>> Yeah. See, this is where your like high

52:33IQ like Stanford stuff comes in. And

52:35you're like, "That's a fun Friday night

52:36is listening to this."

52:37>> Oh, I just like like I [laughter] I

52:39don't know if it's high IQ other than

52:40like

52:41>> esoteric physics as a phrase is I think

52:43just like qualifies you as high IQ.

52:44[laughter]

52:45You have to just accept.

52:47>> Okay. I guess to me it's like I I wish I

52:49could just like just meditate for like 3

52:52months into bed or just like follow and

52:54like try to find if aliens exist. Those

52:56would be like fun side quests to

52:58actually do. So like Jesse Michaels is

53:00like my way to like explore like the

53:03childlike childlike curiosity, right?

53:05Like I don't know if aliens exist. That

53:07would be but it would be cool if they

53:09do. Or like the conspiracy theories like

53:11the pyramids were like not actually

53:14built by ancient Egyptians, but maybe

53:16they were just like cuz they're like

53:17aligned with the stars and like aligned

53:19with like the axis of the earth in like

53:21a very like

53:22>> like accurate way. And is this like some

53:24sort of like portal thing? And he's got

53:26like all these like

53:27>> Yeah. Like I don't know if they're half

53:31crazy, half genius people just like

53:33going deep into like the physics of it.

53:36>> We don't even have to over analyze it.

53:37Like you can just enjoy it. You can just

53:38enjoy the mindbending trip of listening

53:40to this. Yeah.

53:41>> Yeah.

53:41>> I love it. Higher slower, fire fast.

53:44>> It's really hard. I mean I like ideally

53:46I I try to do both.

53:49That that's the hardest thing as an

53:51entrepreneur or a VC. Like firing people

53:53sucks. Mhm.

53:54>> It's just like

53:56maybe like I I guess I understand why

53:59sociopaths do pretty well in business

54:01cuz like

54:02>> they don't think about it, they just do

54:04it.

54:04>> Yeah. You got to do it. Um so I think

54:06part of me is like to I think the best

54:08operators can turn on that sociopathy

54:10button I guess.

54:12>> Um so because I don't I hate I don't

54:14like firing people then it's like okay

54:17just hire slow. So I guess like to

54:18answer the question like hire slow so

54:20you don't need to fire people.

54:22>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Then you can like

54:23avoid the second part of the question al

54:24together. [laughter] You never have to

54:25fire ever.

54:26>> Exactly.

54:26>> Okay. 10 small wins or one big moonshot.

54:28>> It's a good question. I think it

54:30depends. Like the thoughtful answer is

54:33that I I think if you're young in your

54:34career and maybe this is for like a you

54:36know people that are just up and coming.

54:38It's like get small wins under your

54:40belt. Like you do not want to be that

54:42moonshot like shooter and never hit that

54:46moonshot and you have nothing in your

54:48track record. So, and I and if you're

54:52young and you don't have that much

54:53experience or like just no track of

54:55winning, no one will believe that you

54:57have a shot to like

55:00I think it's unlikely that you can come

55:03out of nowhere and have like and and hit

55:06the moon. I think all the people that

55:08end up hitting the moon have like a

55:09really they have a bunch of base hits

55:11that give them the confidence, the

55:12resources, the network, the learnings,

55:14the battle scars to actually hit that

55:16moonshot. Um, but I think for me now I I

55:22I I feel like I I have enough stuff

55:25where I I I I like I only want to work

55:28on moonshots, but I feel like it's a

55:30relatively privileged place, but I think

55:31I could get to that position cuz I just

55:33hit a bunch of base hits to get to a

55:35place where it's like, okay, I have

55:36resources and like

55:38the the safety net to just swing big.

55:40enough of a resume, you know, like

55:42you've had enough of those small wins,

55:43like you said, to point to so the

55:45moonshot seems more believable at least.

55:46>> 100%.

55:47>> Yeah, I love that answer. Being early or

55:48being right?

55:49>> Being right.

55:50>> Okay, tell me more.

55:51>> Like being early but not right just

55:54means you're you're wrong. So [laughter]

55:56So um so I think again it's just like I

56:01I don't think I think there's a lot of

56:03like ego or performative art around

56:06like, oh, we're we're like super early.

56:09Um,

56:11but like we missed like the actual

56:13winner or something, right? Like I guess

56:15like I don't care about the performance

56:17or the narrative. Like you just like you

56:19just actually got to be right and win.

56:21Um, so obviously best is early and

56:25right, but if I could only choose one or

56:27the other, I just rather be right and be

56:28and pay up a little bit more, it's fine.

56:30Like if you're right, you still you will

56:32make a lot of money. You might not make

56:34a million X, but you'll make a,000x. You

56:36know, you might not make a 100x, but you

56:38still make a 10x. Like, I'll I'll 10x my

56:40money any day all the time. We'll have a

56:44great living. Totally. What are we

56:45talking about?

56:46>> Totally. I think also that answer is so

56:48evident in your portfolio construction.

56:49Like how you think about investing is so

56:51much to do with your answer there, which

56:52is interesting. Yeah,

56:53>> you're being consistent. I appreciate

56:55it. Okay. What is the best teacher? A

56:57mentor or a mistake?

56:58>> Mistake.

56:59>> Okay. Um

57:02I [snorts] find that I know for myself

57:05and I think for a lot of entrepreneurial

57:08types like you know I consider you an

57:10entrepreneur right you're creating your

57:11own fund right and I think a lot of

57:12people think oh you're a VC but I think

57:14you're as much of an entrepreneur as a

57:15VC

57:16>> um you have to have some level of

57:18ballsiness conviction that you're

57:21to do something that is so counter

57:24grain um so I think I think it's just

57:28hard to like take any advice advice.

57:30>> Mhm. Yeah. Cuz you're actually the one

57:32doing it. You're in the arena. I think

57:33sometimes that quote reminds me the um

57:35or this question reminds me of the quote

57:36about like the the Teddy Roosevelt, the

57:38man in the arena thing, you know, like

57:39the one that's in the arena is the one

57:40making the mistakes. The one that's in

57:42the crowd is like giving them advice.

57:44It's like how helpful is that?

57:45>> So like but so I think it's like

57:49so like I think like actually making the

57:51mistake I think the way I think about it

57:52is like like even like the holy books,

57:54right? like you read like the Bible and

57:56it's like quite dense and like maybe

57:59it's like hard to extract like full

58:00meaning of it but like I'm sure like you

58:03know whether it's divinely inspired or

58:05like the people like actually writing

58:06the story there's so much like meaning

58:08and like juice within that lived

58:09experience if you're actually like

58:12you know you know one of the books right

58:15like like actually like living through

58:17being one of Jesus disciples or

58:19something there's like there's so much

58:20depth it's like really hard to translate

58:21the human language

58:23>> so the way I think about it is It's

58:26mentors are

58:28there's very few people that have enough

58:30context to actually give you like good

58:32proper mentor advice right if there is

58:33someone that like really knows live your

58:35state and is a few years ahead and can

58:37give you some advice like I have higher

58:39waiting towards that but I think like

58:41the nature of being an entrepreneur and

58:43nature of being an like like a like a

58:45like a like an emerging VC I think we're

58:48just built to not really listen to other

58:50people because most people be like hey

58:51you're you're doing something dumb or

58:52you're doing something wrong.

58:53>> Well, also like the creation of the

58:56anti-fund. Well, if we use you as an

58:57example is because you are going against

58:58the grain of doing what no one else has

59:00done in theory.

59:01>> Yes,

59:01>> in theory that is what we're doing. I

59:02feel like I'm doing that with my friend

59:04too. Like truly don't really have many

59:06things to point to

59:07>> and so why would I take advice from

59:08someone who hasn't done the thing?

59:09>> Yeah, 100%. I think that's like the same

59:11with like Jake and Logan. I think like

59:15Jake's one of his nicknames like Problem

59:17Child, Logan Paul, like Maverick. Like I

59:20think a lot of people that just do

59:21they're just I think we're just like not

59:23good at like taking like people's

59:27like cheap advice for face value.

59:29>> Mh.

59:30>> Um so I guess the way I think about it

59:33is like got to like learn through

59:35mistakes. Just don't make a fatal

59:36mistake.

59:37>> Try [clears throat] to make like small

59:38mistakes.

59:39>> Easier said than done.

59:40>> It always feels fatal in the moment but

59:42[laughter] then you make it out.

59:43>> So here's a problem I hear constantly

59:45from operators. The data exists. The

59:47answers are somewhere in there, but

59:49getting to them, actually pulling a

59:50useful insight without bugging the data

59:52team or learning SQL takes way too long

59:54or just does not happen. [music] Hex

59:56solves that. Hex is an AI analytics

59:58platform where anyone on your team can

1:00:00ask data questions in plain English and

1:00:03get real answers backed by your actual

1:00:04business context. No SQL required. And

1:00:07the best part is that Hex shows you

1:00:09exactly how its data agents think. So

1:00:11you can see where the logic comes from

1:00:12and trust the output. The more your team

1:00:14uses it, the smarter it gets. From

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1:00:18larger orgs dealing with serious data

1:00:19[music] complexity, Hex is built to

1:00:21scale with you. It's game-changing for

1:00:23people like me who want to understand

1:00:24what's going on under the hood. But we

1:00:25are not the data experts. It's funny,

1:00:27too, because I feel like every time I

1:00:29look over my operator friends shoulders,

1:00:30whether they're in product or marketing

1:00:32or ops, they often have a hex dashboard

1:00:34pulled up. It's a great tool.

1:00:36Trailblazers listeners get an exclusive

1:00:3730-day free trial at hex.ai/trabblazers.

1:00:41Okay. Is the future of AI abundance or

1:00:43chaos? I like to bend towards abundance.

1:00:46Um, there will be just short-term chaos

1:00:48as people figure out how to best

1:00:50implement these things. Um, but I'm

1:00:54generally optimistic. Um, these are

1:00:57supposed to be rose tinted glass. I

1:00:58think that to be to be like a VC or to

1:01:00be like a start person, you have to be

1:01:01optimistic.

1:01:02>> Yeah.

1:01:03>> Um,

1:01:03>> that's pretty funny. Rose tinted glasses

1:01:05and you're wearing them. Yeah, it's

1:01:06good.

1:01:06>> I don't think it's determined. So I

1:01:08think it's going to be the people, our

1:01:11industry, the investors, the operators,

1:01:14the the founders who

1:01:19mold our society towards abundance or

1:01:20chaos. So I think a lot of it's just

1:01:23within like our industry's collective

1:01:25control. like people are driving AI and

1:01:29let's hopefully support back invest in

1:01:32leaders and purposes that create this

1:01:35world of abundance

1:01:36>> and responsible leaders who like take

1:01:38that seriously who want abundance not

1:01:40chaos.

1:01:40>> Yeah, love that answer. Killer product

1:01:42or loyal niche audience

1:01:44>> product.

1:01:45>> Okay, tell me more. I think regardless

1:01:47of how much cloud, how much audience,

1:01:49obviously that's super valuable, but end

1:01:52of the day like your product just needs

1:01:54to deliver something of consumer

1:01:56utility. So I'd much rather have a

1:02:00product that actually works and then

1:02:02figure out how out to find distribution

1:02:05and find that loyal audience

1:02:08than to farm your audience, right? Like

1:02:11the inverse is loyal audience with a

1:02:14crap product which means exploiting your

1:02:16audience and farming them

1:02:18>> and no retention at all.

1:02:19>> Exactly.

1:02:19>> Which is so much of how you make money.

1:02:21Yeah.

1:02:21>> Yeah. So

1:02:21>> I mean Ram's a perfect example of that.

1:02:23Their whole business is just this like

1:02:24crazy retention.

1:02:24>> Yeah.

1:02:25>> Yeah. VC or bootstrapping. The way I

1:02:27would think about that is

1:02:30I I don't like to me when I'm on the

1:02:34founder side, I just want smart

1:02:37resourced up people to help me. And if

1:02:41I'm going to give points off my cap

1:02:43table to people that can materially

1:02:45change in my business, then that's like

1:02:46a good trade. So, so to me it's like VC

1:02:50bootstrap,

1:02:53it's just resourcing for you to

1:02:55accomplish the purpose of your business

1:02:56and in in your mission. Um, if I need to

1:03:00sell equity to get people to buy in and

1:03:02help me, that's that's a very fine

1:03:05trade.

1:03:05>> It's a good way to think about it, too,

1:03:06cuz also if you have your own capital

1:03:08yourself and you don't think that that

1:03:09trade-off is worth it, you don't

1:03:11actually need to necessarily raise

1:03:12>> it's fine. But I think it's like even

1:03:13like but I think what I realized is that

1:03:15like this is a tribal sport. like you

1:03:19you ostensibly you'll be giving equity

1:03:21to your key executives, your employees,

1:03:23it's going somewhere.

1:03:24>> It's going somewhere.

1:03:25>> Yeah.

1:03:26>> So if you can trade it for some money

1:03:28from smart people that you respect that

1:03:30can help you.

1:03:31>> Yeah.

1:03:31>> It's a trade. So like to me it's like

1:03:33when people oh bootstrap versus VC, it

1:03:35feels like very like again performative

1:03:37and like

1:03:40like I have an ego. I'm a like VCs are

1:03:43dumb. Like I'm going to do it myself cuz

1:03:44I'm a bootstrap entrepreneur. It's like,

1:03:46dude, it's

1:03:48that's not like the purpose is not like

1:03:50your ego. The purpose is like building a

1:03:52company to maximize the potential of of

1:03:55the market.

1:03:56>> I also think of it sometimes as like

1:03:58you're giving points for different skill

1:04:00sets. So like you can give a point for a

1:04:01marketer, you can give a point for a

1:04:03great developer, and then you're giving

1:04:04a point for a great like fundraiser and

1:04:05capital allocator who like knows

1:04:07everyone. Like I sometimes say like it

1:04:08just is simply like when you raise from

1:04:10great VCs who are wellworked, you're

1:04:12paying for just their network like

1:04:13>> and you reduce your future cost of

1:04:14capital 100%. Exactly. Exactly. Because

1:04:16you know, you got to get that money from

1:04:17somewhere and if you can get they know

1:04:19good people, higher valuations, dilute

1:04:20you less, like it helps.

1:04:22>> Yeah. So to me it's like it's it's a

1:04:23trade.

1:04:24>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Love that. Okay. Two

1:04:26more. Never post on social media again

1:04:28or never fund raise another dollar again

1:04:30>> for what? Just like

1:04:31>> for your fund right now at this stage in

1:04:32your life. You can't post another post

1:04:34[laughter]

1:04:35or you can't what you've raised for this

1:04:37fund. You can't raise another dollar.

1:04:40Um,

1:04:45[snorts] I'd probably never fund raise

1:04:46again actually. Um,

1:04:50meaning that like I'm really confident

1:04:53with our positions and just rotating our

1:04:56own capital that we'll be able to

1:04:58compound because I think getting your

1:05:00message out there and distribution is so

1:05:02important to actually have future

1:05:03business, right? Like so maybe another

1:05:06way to answer like to ask the question

1:05:08is it like

1:05:09>> is money more powerful or attention more

1:05:13powerful totally

1:05:14>> and I think it's like I can use

1:05:15attention to if I can't use it to like

1:05:18raise LP dollars which is not really how

1:05:19we raise LP dollars

1:05:21>> like but that is more useful as a way to

1:05:25generate value

1:05:27>> which then I can capture in terms of

1:05:28money that I guess is my own money to

1:05:30then go invest.

1:05:31>> Yeah. Yeah, there's also something to be

1:05:32said too, like that earlier comment

1:05:33about the the small wins and the

1:05:34moonshot, like you've already collected

1:05:36enough capital, you've already connected

1:05:37enough like little wins that like if you

1:05:39just kept it all in the family and you

1:05:40guys kept reinvesting your own money, it

1:05:42would be okay.

1:05:43>> Yeah, love that.

1:05:44>> Okay, last question. Is AI overhyped or

1:05:46underhyped?

1:05:47>> Both. Um,

1:05:50like I think there's a bunch of

1:05:52AI companies

1:05:54um which are borderline scams slash you

1:05:58probably just not going to work. Um, but

1:06:02AI will transform how we all live and

1:06:06and and and function as a society. So I

1:06:08think it's like which I think is like

1:06:10correct for all bubbles. It's like

1:06:12there's really transformational

1:06:14underlying cultural civilizational

1:06:17shifts that will just change power,

1:06:20change resource allocation, change

1:06:24um which types of people control the

1:06:27resources of our civilization.

1:06:30Um, but in that mix, like there's a lot

1:06:33of heat-seeking missile types that are

1:06:35going to be like clout chasing, trying

1:06:36to grab on to like the little crumbs

1:06:38that fall off on the side. I think

1:06:40that's like the hard part about our job.

1:06:42Like, are are you a faker or are you

1:06:44real?

1:06:44>> Mhm.

1:06:45>> Um, so I think it's both. I I think it's

1:06:47like I think when people say, "Oh, it's

1:06:48a bubble." It's like, yeah, there are

1:06:49parts where it is a bubble. like it is

1:06:52I'm sure [snorts] when people are like

1:06:53hey like a couple kids that

1:06:57really don't have a track record and

1:06:59like like the seed prices are you know

1:07:02going from like I don't know 5 10 15 20

1:07:0430 50 100 like it's pretty arbitrary now

1:07:07>> I I don't like to be just like a dumb

1:07:10price taker. Um I don't know I just like

1:07:13I like I'd rather just work with people

1:07:15that just get that it's a partnership

1:07:17not like I'm a dumb money bag.

1:07:19>> Yeah. So, I think there's definitely a

1:07:21little bit of that dynamic being played

1:07:22right now because I think why see all

1:07:24like entrepreneur content like, "Yo,

1:07:26just VCs are dumb. Just go grab their

1:07:28money and just like kind of like FOMO

1:07:29the out of them, right?" Like

1:07:31there's just a lot of games like these

1:07:32micro games being played.

1:07:33>> Yeah. Not it. Not it,

1:07:35>> right? Like I'm sure like people try to

1:07:36out alpha you. You're like, "Dude, okay,

1:07:38cool. You're so awesome."

1:07:39>> Well, it's just like it's a good test

1:07:40cuz then I'm like, then we're not a fit

1:07:41cuz like I also think that partnership

1:07:42thing is really important and like you

1:07:44want someone who's not trying to like

1:07:45juice you, you know, to get higher and

1:07:46higher. I I think a lot of these like

1:07:48founders like just don't realize it's

1:07:49like pretty a like okay you're trying to

1:07:51juice me like okay it's fine go

1:07:53>> go do your thing please bye

1:07:54>> yeah good luck

1:07:55>> yeah right but with all of that like

1:07:57there is just like such foundational

1:08:00formational changes and I think I'm I'm

1:08:01really excited for that

1:08:02>> I'm excited for you um Jeff thanks for

1:08:04being here

1:08:06>> this was super fun you crushed and I

1:08:07really appreciate your time

1:08:08>> yeah thanks Erica

1:08:09>> thanks so much for listening to the

1:08:10Trailblazers podcast if you found this

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1:08:33Until next time, keep trailblazing.