Migrant Crime Machine EXPOSED: I Went Undercover & Crossed The Channel

0:00You lived in these migrant camps for two

0:02weeks.

0:02>> I've got no security. I've got bloss

0:04giving me the death star. There's guns

0:06going off non-stop. Algerian mafia run

0:08France to death. If I get it wrong,

0:10>> it's murder that you witnessed. Do we

0:12want these sort of people in the UK?

0:13>> They call them refugees. These people

0:16are not refugees. They're coming through

0:17numerous safe countries. Coming from a

0:19safe country when they're breaking in

0:21from France. They're all taking drugs,

0:22drinking.

0:23>> Did it smell?

0:24>> There's feces all over the floor.

0:26There's rotting food. You can hear the

0:27undergrowth rustling. And it's just the

0:29rats.

0:30>> They're smugglers. There's mafia.

0:31There's Taliban. Corrupt police.

0:33>> A lot of them have drugs on them. Crack

0:34and smack.

0:35>> Well, if one of Modí, it would be quite

0:36handy cuz I'd imagine there was plenty

0:38of doctors and engineers on site.

0:40>> The police don't ever stop the migrants

0:41who were all walking down the roads with

0:43life jackets. They just drive past them.

0:45There's people like trying to clamber to

0:46get on. He just whips out his knife,

0:48sticks it in the dinger. Police there

0:50pointing guns at us, like loads of them.

0:52Get your life jackets. Pack the bags.

0:53We're going. I've just invaded Great

0:55Britain, haven't I? Would the boats be

0:57easy to actually stop?

1:04>> Christian,

1:05>> how we doing,

1:06>> mate? I'm I'm gobsmacked. I'm

1:08gobsmacked. I'm amazed and I'm in awe of

1:11your work. So, you spent So, I want to

1:13go back to your first visit to Dunkerk

1:16and Calala in the camp. So, you lived in

1:19these migrant camps for two weeks. You

1:21felt like your life was in danger. You

1:23was undercover. You changed your accent,

1:26you've done all sorts of stuff, grew a

1:27beard. So, let's start from from there

1:30because you then chose to go back months

1:32later, eight or nine months later,

1:34because the first mission, well, you can

1:36tell me more in detail, but from what

1:38I've gathered, the first mission was to

1:39get on one of the thingies and cross the

1:41channel, it didn't quite happen, but

1:43what you found and unpacked was

1:45extraordinary, extraordinarily

1:47frightening. And then you went back and

1:48you've now completed the task. So this

1:50is going to be a very enjoyable podcast

1:53for me and the audience. So go back to

1:56the beginning. What what made you think

1:58that you could you could pull this

2:00mission off?

2:01>> So I I'd been into the camps um like the

2:04very first trip I'd been into the camps

2:06and I thought hey you know what like um

2:09we've walked through the camps it was

2:11more just sort of people looking over as

2:13if what you're doing it wasn't as

2:14hostile back then as it is now you know.

2:17So, we got into the camps first time.

2:19The police have picked up. I've got me

2:21drone in the air with with no I didn't

2:23have a ticket for it at the time, you

2:24know, license. So, I've got me drone in

2:26the air. I've got me car parked up in

2:28the middle of the camp. And u you know,

2:30got a few migrants coming over to us.

2:32Sort of. Oh, are you like trying to get

2:34the food off us, but we were just there

2:35sort of. So, we were interviewing them.

2:37Next thing you know, this people carrier

2:40comes through, jumps, jump out. It's a

2:42load. It's a load of police. Slammer us

2:43against the car. Turn the car upside

2:45down. Next thing you know, he sees the

2:47drone controller. He's like, "Where's

2:49the drone? Where's the drone? Where's

2:50your Where's your press pass?" We're

2:51like, "Well, we're just independent

2:53journalists. We don't need press

2:54passes." Anyway, we we we figured that

2:56the police do not want you there. They

2:59don't want you in the camps. So, that's

3:00where the idea of um sort of going up as

3:03as an undercover migrant was born with a

3:06view to getting on a boat. Um but yeah,

3:09it didn't quite work out like that

3:11really first time. We we ended up going

3:13more towards um well we just found out

3:16that much anyway. That's that's that you

3:18know as opposed to getting on the boat.

3:20We we got distracted with other stuff

3:22and and the boat never came first time

3:23round. So

3:24>> why was you curious about the migrant

3:26crossings in the first place? That

3:28initial moment where you're going about

3:30your day-to-day life cuz you're a

3:31builder, aren't you?

3:32>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

3:32>> And you've decided there's something

3:33there that I don't like. What is it that

3:35you were suspicious of? It's the fact

3:37that, you know, people call these people

3:39who are coming over to the UK. They call

3:41them refugees.

3:42They're not refugees. I I mean, you

3:45know, I'm sure you don't need me to tell

3:46you that, but for anybody watching,

3:48these people are not refugees. They're

3:50coming through numerous safe countries.

3:52They've come from a safe country when

3:54they're breaking in from France.

3:57And they're just taking the mick out of

3:59our country. And all you have to do um

4:01is walk through any uh major city or

4:04town in the UK uh open with your eyes

4:07open and you can see our country is

4:09falling to pieces. You know it it breaks

4:12my heart to think that there's so many

4:13men that laid down not even men so many

4:15young lads who laid down their lives for

4:17our country and and you know we're just

4:20sp spiraling into you know oblivion to

4:22me. So I thought I've I've got to stand

4:25up and do something. I'm from a town

4:26called Rodale. We all know what's

4:28happened in Rodale without me going into

4:29it. There's, you know, I know girls

4:31personally who've been badly affected.

4:33You know, I've sat down and and and

4:35heard their stories and guess what? Some

4:37of those girls are ne will never go to

4:39the police. You know, they will never go

4:41to the police. So, I've got all this

4:43going through my mind and I've just I've

4:45just thought I've got to I've got to do

4:46something. I can't be a man of England

4:48who looks back on life having not done

4:51anything.

4:52>> And you done it solo, didn't you?

4:53>> Yeah. [laughter] Yeah.

4:54>> I mean, that is balls of steel.

4:56>> Yeah. So, so, so let's talk about the

4:58mission then. So, the the first time

5:00when you decided to go in undercover.

5:02So, the first time was a wrecky.

5:04>> Yeah.

5:04>> And then the next time was the first

5:07mission. So, what was you setting out to

5:08achieve and then unpack what you found

5:11in those camps and how you managed to

5:13infiltrate your way into them?

5:15>> So, I thought I was going to go into

5:16those camps with uh with with some euros

5:20and I was going to say, listen, you

5:21know, I want to get on a boat and then

5:23I'll get on a boat. It's not that

5:25simple. is a lot more closed and

5:27organized than just pitching up to

5:29France with some money and going, "Can I

5:31break into the UK?" These people are

5:33being sort of um they're being, let's

5:36say, recruited, if you like, well before

5:38the north of France. They're being

5:40recruited um online in Africa, in the

5:43Middle East, these smuggling routes,

5:45that's where they start. They start

5:46right back uh from from across the other

5:49side of the world to France.

5:51So So that's what I started to realize.

5:54And I'm I'm thinking, hang on a second.

5:56There's there's no way I'm going to get

5:57on a boat here. Um obviously the gunfire

5:59was going off. I was told by one guy if

6:02I'd put me tent in the Dunkerk jungle,

6:04if I'd left if I'd slept where I'd put

6:05my tent, you know, the Taliban would

6:08would kill me in my sleep. You know, he

6:09said, "Do you want to lie there dead? Do

6:11you want to lie there dead?" And you

6:13know, like I said to him, I said, "Not

6:14really now." [laughter]

6:16Simple as that. So I thought, "You know

6:18what? It's not happening in this Dunkerk

6:19jungle. There's guns going off

6:21non-stop." I mean, at first they were

6:23going off that often. I I genuinely

6:24thought it must be some sort of

6:26scarecrow device or something. There's

6:28loads of farms nearby. Um, that's how

6:30often they're going off. Um, so I I got

6:33out of the first uh camp and then I

6:36moved sort of to some other there's

6:38loads of camps across the north of

6:39France. There's two main ones, the Cali

6:41hospital one and the Dunkerk one, but

6:42there's loads of little off, you know,

6:44off sort of shoots of of camps. Um, and

6:47I went and tried to to to to link it

6:50with a few other people. Um, got into

6:52this situation where the thing is you

6:55don't know who's trying to do you over.

6:56So this I get into this situation with

6:58Bon, a migrant who had come from

7:02Palestine.

7:03Um, and you know, they're all taking

7:07drugs, drinking, and and then I'm

7:09thinking, if I give my money to these

7:10people, €1,800 this lad's asking for,

7:13these could just pack up when I'm asleep

7:14and go. It just didn't feel right. So,

7:17in the end, um, they turned around and

7:19said they'd been ripped off by the

7:20people smuggler. This is like two weeks

7:23into being undercover and and trying to

7:24blend in with these people. I just got

7:26up and thought, I've got I've been here

7:28two weeks. My feet are killing. I've got

7:30to get out of France. There's only so

7:31long you can live in a situation being

7:33unsafe for. So, I packed up and got out.

7:36>> And still sticking with the first

7:37mission for a while now. I can't see how

7:39you would be able to turn up in a polo

7:41shirt, clean shaven with a northern

7:43accent and then just say, "Yeah, come on

7:45in." And so like, how did you how did

7:48you blend in with them people? Cuz And

7:51also, where are they predominantly from

7:52these migrants?

7:53>> Yeah, I mean, I I grew my beard. I

7:55thought, you know, I've got to get to

7:56I've got to get into a point where where

7:58these people trust me. Um, but it was it

8:01was nearly impossible. You know, if I

8:03asked you a question now and said, "Try

8:05and answer in a funny accent." you know,

8:07eventually you start stumbling. Um,

8:10>> you you did you did work on your accent,

8:12didn't you? Your broken English foreign

8:14accent.

8:15>> You start stumbling. You It's like, you

8:16know, you think you've got to think of

8:18the answer, which might be not the

8:20truth, and then you've got to put it in

8:22your own head into and you might have a

8:24couple of BS who could be, you know,

8:26armed or have knives, you know, um, sort

8:29of stood waiting for your answer. So,

8:31two weeks in this migrant camp speaking

8:33broken English in a in a foreign accent

8:35with a beard.

8:36>> Did you think at any stage I'm going to

8:38get caught out here?

8:39>> Actually, yeah. There was a moment um

8:41and this this was the deciding factor

8:42where where I thought in in the first

8:45camp where I thought I've got to get

8:46out. You know, they're walking past me,

8:48these Middle Eastern BS, they're walking

8:50up to the main camp which had light

8:52switches and stuff and they are looking

8:55at me and they're they're staring at me

8:57now at this point. So, I'm thinking some

8:59of these BS are armed. I'm sat in, you

9:01know, a woodland in France on my own and

9:04I've got BS sort of like giving me the

9:06death stare. Um, you know, once once a

9:09couple of them had walked past, I

9:10thought, I've got to get out of here.

9:12You know, you just know when a

9:13situation's going bad, and that was that

9:15was moments away from something bad

9:17happening. And

9:18>> Had you ever done any drama at school or

9:19any acting? [laughter]

9:20>> No, not a bit. I'm not the best actor.

9:24>> Was that It's funny. You've gone you've

9:26gone from a builder and then overnight

9:27you've become a journalist and an actor.

9:29>> Yeah. [laughter]

9:30>> Fair play.

9:32>> Yeah. That's pushing the boundaries. So

9:34describe what these camps are like. Did

9:37depict the camp for me so I can imagine

9:39it in my own mind. I've seen the footage

9:41by the way. Yeah.

9:42>> But for people that haven't, how would

9:44you describe them? Cuz I saw you took a

9:45picture of a bloke smoking crack. Yeah.

9:47>> In your actual tent.

9:48>> Yeah. He just busting. He was an Afghan

9:50guy. Um, I mean the the camps, just

9:54imagine the most amount of litter

9:56scattered on the floor possible, which

9:59actually comes in quite handy at

10:00sometimes because you can use it to to

10:02burn to set fires and stuff to keep

10:03yourself warm. But yeah, the there's

10:06feces all over the floor. Um, you know,

10:09that the there's rotting food. I mean,

10:12as you're walking through some of these

10:14places, you can hear the undergrowth

10:16rustling and it's just the rats just

10:18just running riot, you know? It's like a

10:20a dream for them. There's food, rotting

10:23food everywhere. [sighs and gasps]

10:24Um the the the litter is just

10:28unbelievable. I I can't even begin to

10:30imagine. It's just And when they're done

10:33with something, it's not it's not the

10:34the thought like me and you would go,

10:36"Oh, where's the bin?" That thought

10:37doesn't pass through these people mind

10:39these people's minds. It's literally

10:41just discard it.

10:42>> Did it smell?

10:42>> Oh, horrendous. Yeah. It's there's

10:45there's this sort of particular smell

10:48and whenever you go there you get the

10:50same smell. It's like the only way I can

10:52say is like the jungle smell. It's it's

10:54unique. Um I guess it's probably rotten

10:57food, you know, [ __ ] and and piss just

10:59all mixed into into the atmosphere. Um

11:02and there's tents, there's discarded

11:04tents, there's groups of tents. Um you

11:07know, there's some people playing music.

11:09Um mo most most most encampments are in

11:13uh in sort of like a little bit of a

11:15woodland section of it. So they'll be

11:17they'll be nestled into the trees. You

11:19know, you've got chickens. I mean, you

11:21wake up at 4 in the morning every

11:22morning cuz the the [ __ ] rolls are sort

11:24of uh growing away and uh the chickens

11:27are pottering around. Sometimes people

11:29catch them and build cages so they can

11:31have the eggs from them. Oh, it's crazy.

11:33>> Did you manage to sleep okay or was you

11:35always on edge?

11:35>> Always on edge. Yeah, it's very very

11:37broken sleep. And was it the first

11:39mission where you could hear the machine

11:40guns in the air?

11:41>> Yeah, that's a regular occurrence in in

11:43in the Dunkerk jungle. Yeah, they are.

11:46The only reason that that didn't sort of

11:49um scare me to the point where I'm

11:51thinking I've got to get out of here is

11:53because there was no screaming. So, it

11:56was like I've been hearing this noise,

11:58this gunshot or various different

12:00gunshots.

12:02And I'm thinking, you know, if there

12:03were people screaming, you'd you'd

12:05probably run. You'd probably get

12:06[clears throat] out of there, wouldn't

12:07you? But but there was none of that.

12:08There was none of that. The only time

12:09people actually jumped up and got on

12:11toes were when the police um sort of

12:13came through because a lot of them have

12:15drugs on them. A lot of them there's a

12:16lot heavy drug users amongst the

12:18migrants.

12:19>> Crack crack and smack.

12:21>> Oh, so they're smoking brown in there as

12:23well.

12:23>> All sorts. Yeah. And and there's drug

12:25dealers walking around in the woodland.

12:27>> Well, if one of them moded that it would

12:29be quite handy because I'd imagine there

12:31was plenty of doctors and engineers on

12:33site. How [laughter] how many doctors

12:35and engineers were in those camps?

12:37>> Probably the only doctors you do see are

12:38are the um are the uh charities. You

12:41know, there's plenty of uh there's

12:43plenty of um charity workers amongst

12:45this lot as well. And let me tell you,

12:47they're propping up this whole

12:48situation. They come with food. I

12:51wouldn't say doctors, but you might have

12:52say a first aer with the charities, you

12:54know, they're they're sort of tending to

12:56people. Um yeah, they they are they're

12:59culpable in the people smuggling

13:01operation, these charities. So this

13:02whole crime syndicate consists of the

13:05charities, the smugglers, the people

13:07that are being smuggled. So if they're

13:08not doctors and engineers, I mean, did

13:10you overhear conversations that you

13:12could understand that gave you an

13:13indication as to who they are?

13:14>> Yeah, I mean, I've spoke to some of

13:16them. I was speaking to one guy one

13:17night. Some some of them just don't

13:19question what you're doing there. It's

13:20it's kind of weird. Some of them are

13:22really sketchy. Some of them don't

13:23question, you know, you turn up, you sit

13:25there, and you know, they might pull you

13:26a pan over to sit on round of fire. Um I

13:29was speaking to this one guy, you know,

13:30he's his his story was quite clearly

13:33fabricated

13:34um about fleeing war and I think they

13:37begin to believe that believe it

13:38themselves, but he was a painter from uh

13:40from Eratraa um you know and he

13:44you know he was coming over to the UK

13:46because he was fleeing war between

13:49Ethiopia and Eratraa and and you know he

13:51said he's scar scared for his life um

13:53and he wants to do painting work in the

13:55UK.

13:55>> So there are some that are fleeing war.

13:57Well, that's what they say where the you

13:59know the stories don't quite stack up.

14:01It once you press them on that why why

14:03did was your life threatened? Oh. Oh.

14:05And then they don't want to speak about

14:06it then once you start trying to press

14:08them.

14:08>> Oh. So you do you think that the

14:09smugglers have prepped them? This is

14:11your story.

14:12>> Someone's prepping them. I I don't even

14:13think it's the smugglers. I think the uh

14:16I think the charities are doing a lot

14:18more than what what we real than what

14:20anyone realizes

14:21>> cuz as far as I know the people that are

14:22coming over from Calala, they're not

14:24fleeing any war torn countries at all.

14:26Apparently there is a um a civil war in

14:29Sudan and there are a few coming from

14:31Sudan but as soon as they've left Sudan

14:34there's no there's no war on the route

14:36to Britain. So, you know, what one thing

14:38and that I did find out actually which

14:40was which was a bit worrying was uh when

14:43I went to Belgium, this is sort of off

14:44on a bit of a tangent, but the worst of

14:48the asylum seekers who are rejected

14:51asylum in the EU, then what they have to

14:54do is because they've been rejected, you

14:56know, asylum, they then head to Dunkerk.

14:59So, we're getting the worst of the lot

15:01from Europe. So they're so if they've

15:03got genuine asylum seekers, they might

15:05get accepted in the EU. But then what

15:07happens is the one that are being

15:08rejected because they're bad people

15:10potentially. They they just head to

15:12Dunkerk and get over. And guess what? We

15:14don't know who they are cuz they've

15:15thrown their phones in the sea.

15:16>> And you know the camps, let's just let's

15:18for some people that struggle to imagine

15:20what a camp would actually look like. I

15:21mean, I know people have been camping

15:23before and they can picture what a

15:24jungle is, but

15:25>> if you're going to a festival, for

15:26example, Yeah. You've got paramedics,

15:29you've got you've got security, and

15:32you've got an entrance that you've got

15:33to enter and then leave and you're

15:38let in.

15:39>> Yeah.

15:39>> Is there a process and a formula that

15:41matches that?

15:42>> No. What happens is this is just in the

15:45woods off a main road near a nuclear

15:48power station in Dunkerk and you're

15:50literally just you're going to enter it

15:52at any point. Um they have actually put

15:55sort sort of concrete blocks around it

15:57now. quite high. Um so they they have

16:00sort of contained it to some extent but

16:02what happens is they just walk through

16:04the gateways of these no there's no

16:05gates they just walk through the opening

16:07of these concrete blocks and they've

16:09actually started expand expanding past

16:11the concrete blocks. what purpose all

16:13that sort of money that was spent was

16:15supposed to serve. I don't know. Uh cuz

16:18to me it's not really served any

16:20purpose. But yeah, you just you can

16:22pitch up. You can't really just pitch a

16:24tent because every single part of the

16:26camp or or the jungle is assigned to a

16:29certain person and that person will be

16:31something to do with the smuggling

16:33operation. So when they get their group

16:35together within their section of the

16:36camp and they're ready to go and and and

16:39they've got so you know enough people to

16:41be able to take down to get on the boat

16:43then they take them down there and and

16:45and they go.

16:46>> Is there any sense of safety at all

16:48within these camps or are they

16:49completely lawless?

16:50>> Just lawless. Yeah, they're completely

16:52lawless. I mean, there was one time I

16:54actually walked through um I I was doing

16:56a live stream and uh next thing you

16:58know, bang, get on the back with a rock

17:01and and I'm turning around and there's a

17:02bloke running down the road with an iron

17:04bar and I thought if if I run now,

17:06they're all coming after me. There's

17:07about hundred looking at me.

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17:44So, when did you finally realize on the

17:47first mission after you'd infiltrated

17:49these camps that enough was enough and

17:51it was time to retreat?

17:52>> Um,

17:53>> cuz you did you attempt to get on a

17:54boat?

17:55>> No. First time round I couldn't even get

17:57near it. I couldn't figure out, you

17:58know, how to get to the point of of even

18:01I couldn't even get into the

18:02conversation with anybody. It's that is

18:04that closed. Um, so yeah, I just I just

18:07got to the point where it was just I was

18:09just that worn out with it all. barely

18:11any sleep, walking for miles, and and

18:14then to the point where I'm thinking,

18:16you know what, you know, I can't take

18:18this anymore because, you know, it

18:20affects you mentally. Like, not, you

18:21know, it's like

18:22>> I bet it does.

18:23>> There's only so much, you know, being

18:25fobbed off you can take in there before

18:26you start getting pissed off with it all

18:28>> because you realize at some stage that

18:30it was actually far more dangerous than

18:31just a migrant camp, didn't you?

18:33>> Oh, yeah. As well, you've not got the

18:35police on your side. They they're not

18:36interested. They they're not interested.

18:38They're just turning a blind eye to all

18:39the criminality from the smugglers and

18:41the migrants. Um, they're almost trying

18:43to pretend it's not there.

18:45>> I wonder what these migrants are

18:46actually fleeing.

18:47>> I feel like more than more than fleeing,

18:50I feel like that there's someone some

18:53not just someone, but there there are

18:55people in places around the world who

18:59are pushing people down this road. I

19:02feel like genuinely I feel like right

19:04now from from what I know now I feel

19:07like this is some kind of warfare you

19:09know um some people have suggested oh is

19:12it is it being encouraged by the

19:13Russians is it being encouraged by the

19:14Chinese I'm not sure to be honest is the

19:17honest answer but I do feel like there

19:19are people around the world encouraging

19:22this as a form of warfare onto the UK

19:24>> and what were the first steps you took

19:26because I've heard you mention something

19:28about a handler and there's sites that

19:31are promoting themselves as travel

19:33agents, but they're smugglers. So, I'm

19:36thinking, okay, this is this is massive.

19:37This is a huge criminal syndicate. This

19:39is just me speculating, but I think a

19:41lot of people will now come to the same

19:43conclusion considered when they come

19:44here, they don't take a breath of fresh

19:46air. They start committing the same

19:47crimes that I assume they were

19:49committing before. Because there must be

19:50people that aren't fleeing countries,

19:53they're escaping countries. And if they

19:55know they can come to England,

19:57>> Yeah. and live the life of Riley.

19:59They're going to source the smuggler,

20:01pay the fee, whatever it may be, and

20:03then get to the UK, and then they're

20:05safe from whatever crime they've

20:06committed in their own country. That's a

20:08theory.

20:08>> The murderer of Rian White, you know, he

20:10was found with other people's blood on

20:12his on on the rings around his neck. So,

20:15there's a high probability that he will

20:18have committed a crime maybe in a couple

20:20of different countries. Who who knows?

20:22Um, now you know some of the some we

20:25know that some of these people are

20:26fleeing other countries to get to the UK

20:29to, you know, they want to start again.

20:31Um, I I' I've been told I've been told

20:34by a few of the um a few of the migrants

20:37that I've spoke to and that I even

20:39traveled with, you know, they they turn

20:41around to me and that, oh, you know,

20:43when we get to UK gym, boxing gym, you

20:46know, no drugs, no drink. So a lot of

20:49these people that I've spoke to are

20:51actually seeing for whatever reason, you

20:54know, for various reasons when they get

20:56to the UK, they're seeing it as a clean

20:58slate

20:59>> from whatever [clears throat] they're

20:59leaving behind. So it's it's definitely

21:01a thing.

21:02>> So the people that want to come to the

21:03UK and they don't know how they're

21:08finding ads on social media platforms

21:11and then and then being filtered to

21:12Telegram groups and WhatsApp groups. Is

21:15that right?

21:15>> Just WhatsApp. Yeah. It's as I mean

21:17there are Telegram groups um but it's as

21:20simple as that you know there are

21:22numbers on so so there were accounts on

21:24on uh Tik Tok they've got a number in

21:26the bio um and you you literally just

21:31save the number into WhatsApp text them

21:33takes you back that quick. It's that

21:34easy.

21:35>> And is that what you've done?

21:35>> Yeah, that's all I've done.

21:36>> So you you found these smugglers on

21:39TikTok?

21:39>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Easy to find as well.

21:41Easy easy to find. I I follow loads of

21:43them. They follow you back as well. It's

21:45just like so blas it's untrue.

21:47>> And do they trust you immediately as

21:49soon as you start talking? Surely they

21:50must be guarded to a certain extent and

21:51put you through through some kind of

21:53screening test.

21:54>> Some do and some don't. You know, if you

21:55sort of say I want I want to get a boat.

21:57Okay. When where from? Um so some

22:00operate from um some operate from Paris,

22:03some operate from from France, some

22:05operate from further down the smuggling

22:06line.

22:07>> When the smugglers are that blasze

22:09because that is beyond audacious. It

22:11makes me think they're protected by

22:13someone. Well, they are protected by the

22:14different languages they speak. You

22:16know, if I put a post on in Arabic,

22:18there's a high chance it won't get taken

22:19down, even if it's the same post, but

22:22just in English. Are you with me?

22:24>> And the two weeks that you were living

22:25in these migrant camps. Was there any

22:28time where the French police raided the

22:30camps?

22:31>> I have seen the police raid it once. And

22:34the thing that fascinates me about that

22:36is the news report that I've seen. Um,

22:40so I followed up had a look at the news

22:42report that I've seen from the time that

22:43it was raided that I saw with my own

22:45eyes and it said um

22:50explosives

22:52um guns and ammunition all found some

22:55you know buried as well on on site in

22:58these in the Dunkerk jungle. So I'm

23:00thinking okay I'm reading down why is

23:03there no arrest? So they go and they

23:04raid these but they never arrest anyone

23:07which then makes you believe well or

23:08which then sort of makes you start

23:10thinking hang on a second well if

23:12there's no arrests is there a bit of a

23:14deal going on with the police now I've

23:16got no evidence whatsoever to suggest

23:19that there could be a deal between

23:21smugglers and the police you know few

23:22brown envelopes here and there but I do

23:25wonder that quite a lot and and you know

23:27it's it's it's that sort you know it's

23:30that sort of setting stone for the the

23:33operation ations of the smugglers are

23:34that set in stone. It's very hard to

23:36disbelieve that that's not happening.

23:38>> Well, it sounds to me somebody looking

23:40at this from the outside in that looks

23:43like pantoime to me just to say look we

23:45are doing something about it. Otherwise,

23:46you would just raid the camps day in day

23:48out. You'd police them. You'd flood them

23:50with the military and say this this ends

23:52now. And it would be the easiest fix

23:54possible surely. Well, I I met up with

23:56an Algerian guy um and uh I was speaking

23:59to him and he said, "Yeah, Algerian

24:01mafia run France, you know." He said,

24:03"The Algerian mafia run France." I said,

24:06"All right, then. What do you reckon to

24:08the Algerian, you know, the Algerians

24:11sort of controlling the people smuggling

24:12operation?" He said, "Oh, without a

24:14shadow of a doubt." He said, you know,

24:15that France invaded Algeria years years

24:17ago. And um and he said, you know, a lot

24:20of the Algerians speak French and and

24:22live in France now. the m he said the

24:24Algerian mafia live in France. You know,

24:26this is coming from an Algerian bloke.

24:28Um and uh that that's the best

24:31intelligence that I've got sort of

24:33around um the mafia and that I've heard

24:36mentioned a few times. So yeah, there's

24:38a high chance. I mean, listen, if the

24:39Algerian mafia live in France, then

24:41you'd probably think that they've got a

24:43few card a few a few cards marked of the

24:46coppers, you know, the higher up

24:47coppers. Um it's not out the ordinary,

24:49is it?

24:50>> No. And just before you left the first

24:52time, you was going to camp in in a in a

24:54different camp somewhere

24:56>> and you were warned that

24:58>> if you if you camp out here, if you set

25:00up tent here, you're going to be killed.

25:03And then he mentioned the Taliban and

25:06the mafia and he he made gun noises.

25:09>> Yeah. Yeah.

25:10>> What was that like?

25:12>> He was just trying to help me. So he was

25:14caught up in the smuggling. um he was

25:17caught up in the smoke cuz he was trying

25:19to pay for a ticket to the UK. So he

25:22will have been um an probably an

25:24innocent guy just thinking I want to get

25:26to the UK for a better life, but to do

25:29so he's had to work for the smugglers

25:31for a period of time to be able to to be

25:32able to gain his passage um from the

25:35smugglers. So I figured that and I

25:38didn't feel threaten threatened by him.

25:40But yeah, I mean when he started doing

25:42that, I'm just like, wow, you know,

25:45>> what is going on here?

25:46>> I heard cuz you got your phone out and

25:48thought I better record this. So I heard

25:50the whole conversation of him telling

25:51you, you know, you you'll be killed.

25:53Yeah.

25:53>> Gunshots, Taliban, mafia.

25:56>> I bet you thought,

25:57>> "Thank God I bumped into you." Well, to

25:59be honest, I mean, you know, that that

26:00that stuck with me then cuz then anytime

26:02I've been in this situation, it's been

26:04hard to sleep cuz you're thinking you

26:06don't know who stood outside your tent

26:08pointing something down at you.

26:10>> No. [laughter]

26:10And also, did you have to pay a fee?

26:12>> The fee? Well, at that point, I I wasn't

26:15even able to get to the to the fee. So,

26:17what is the fee? Um, obviously

26:19eventually, you know, I ended up paying

26:21€1,400, which, you know, which was

26:23actually quite cheap, I thought,

26:25[laughter] considering with some of the

26:26prices that we've been told in the past,

26:28you know, thousands of pounds and stuff.

26:30You know, the the the another lie. Oh,

26:32these people are paying thousands of

26:34pounds, thousands upon thousands of

26:36pounds. Well, it's not, you know, I know

26:37the journeys have started off quite

26:39quite a distance back, but a lot of

26:41these people um just jump on public

26:44transport and don't pay train tickets

26:45and and run off when if they get caught.

26:47So they walk and get trains across the

26:50continents.

26:51>> Yeah. Cuz that was on your second

26:53journey, wasn't it? Yeah. Where you was

26:55plotted up in camps.

26:57>> So yeah, just one more question before

26:59we we move on to the second visit that

27:02you made there where you were successful

27:04this time to get onto a dinghy.

27:05>> Yeah.

27:06>> I mean, [ __ ] hell. [laughter]

27:08But do you think because again I'm

27:11speculating but you've had boots on the

27:13deck and you've been around these people

27:15and you've heard and you've seen stuff

27:16with your own eyes and your eyes and

27:18ears don't tend to lie.

27:21>> They're not doctors. They're not

27:22engineers. We know that

27:24>> a lot of them are talking about

27:25criminality. I know that one person was

27:27described to you as a violent thief.

27:29>> He was the guy smoking the crack pipe in

27:31your tent. There's crack. There's

27:33heroin. There's all sorts. There's

27:34people on the run. We know that much.

27:36There's smugglers. There's mafia.

27:37There's Taliban. There's corrupt police.

27:40>> Yeah.

27:40>> I mean, this is a big big big big big

27:42story. Massive. Huge. One of the biggest

27:44scandals I've heard since the grooming

27:46gangs, if not the biggest scandal. It's

27:48absolutely outrageous. But do you think

27:52that some of the migrants

27:54are in cahoots with the smugglers in a

27:56sense of when they get to the UK, they

27:59haven't paid their fee, but they're

28:00going to work off their fee in other

28:02ways. They're going to become crime.

28:03They're going to become part of a crime

28:05syndicate in the UK.

28:07>> Yeah, without a shadow of a doubt they

28:09that's what's going on. So you've got

28:11the first bit where they're doing work

28:12in France or the other side of it is

28:15when you get to the UK without a shadow

28:18of a doubt. I've been told I've been

28:19told I'm still in touch with people with

28:21migrants now who haven't paid their

28:24ticket and they are intending to do work

28:26on the UK side. I never managed to get

28:28to what that work is, but it can't be

28:30legal work because they've not got any

28:31right to work. So yeah, whatever that

28:35work is, um, you know, I will get to the

28:38bottom of it, but there's definitely

28:40definitely an illegal trade going on on

28:42this side, which which makes a mockery

28:44of it as well.

28:45>> And just even up to now how far we've

28:47got, and we've not even got into the

28:48meat and gravy of this interview yet,

28:50but what we do know is when Starmmer was

28:53on his stage saying, "We're going to

28:54smash the gangs."

28:55>> Yeah.

28:56>> We now know he was well out of his depth

28:57and he had no chance. To be honest, I I

28:59think that smash the gangs was a really

29:01clever idea from Star's point of view. I

29:04tell you why. Because everybody was

29:06thinking about the gangs and the problem

29:08is not the gangs, the problems the

29:10government, problems the likes of Kia

29:12Starama. So what he did with that was he

29:14got us all thinking, "Oh, these gangs

29:15are getting the people come." Everyone

29:17in the country thought it, but actually

29:19the gangs not I've seen it. You know,

29:20the gangs are not the problem. The pe

29:22the problem is the government being no

29:25will and in you know no will or desire

29:27to stop to stop this from happening. If

29:29if you know these gangs might have

29:31hundreds of thousands well the British

29:34government's got billions our ships are

29:35worth billions there's a there's are

29:38inflatables you know at best. Um so to

29:41saying that we can't stop this problem

29:43because of the gangs was a great idea to

29:45sigh up us all

29:46>> more gaslighting.

29:47>> That's it. It it amazes me how there's

29:50still still people out there that don't

29:52even suspect that our government are

29:54complicit in this.

29:55>> Yeah, it blows it blows my mind. I mean,

29:58I don't if you you've seen you be I've

30:00seen you at some of some of the

30:01demonstrations and I' I've been to some

30:03too, you know, and there are people who

30:06are that blind to it all that they stand

30:09there with the signs and they, you know,

30:11racist, fascist, refugees, welcome here.

30:13You know, those people are dangerous

30:15people because they are help helping to

30:18pedal this whole lie, this whole

30:20illusion of of, you know, and they are

30:22putting the likes of of of us and and

30:25children and women, you know, our

30:27citizens at danger, at great danger,

30:30>> massive danger. And I just can't believe

30:32that people are putting their head in

30:33the sands. And there's even people out

30:34there that probably know that that's the

30:36truth, but they still want to appear

30:39virtuous and like they've got the

30:40biggest heart in the world. Yeah.

30:42>> Well, well, how about you house the

30:44crack smoking violent thief then? Yeah.

30:46>> How about you do that?

30:47>> Well, yeah. And then and then they reel

30:48back up into the shell then, don't they?

30:50>> Oh, I live with my mom or I went Oh,

30:52okay. Okay. So, what what the [ __ ] are

30:54you protesting for then?

30:55>> Yeah.

30:56>> And just before you came back to then

30:58replan the second mission.

31:00>> Yeah.

31:00>> You bumped into a guy called Baron who

31:02was a Palestinian.

31:03>> Yeah.

31:04>> And what did he show you on his phone?

31:06He was showing me videos of his uncle,

31:09you know, I mean, there were half dead

31:11people on the floor and he was showing

31:14me videos of his uncle, you know, they

31:15were pulling up to these just machine

31:17guning these dead, you know, virtually

31:18dead bodies, point blank range. Uh, and

31:21he was smiling saying, "My uncle, my

31:24uncle." You know, it was it was like I'm

31:26looking at this guy thinking, "Jesus

31:28Christ, this guy's literally

31:30smiling with pure glee like showing me

31:34videos of of these, you know, I guess is

31:37Islamists from uh Palestine or whatever,

31:40you know, potentially. I'm thinking of

31:41these are these Hamas operatives and,

31:44you know, and I'm watching these videos

31:46and and and they're literally machine

31:47guning these people. They're driving

31:49cars through walls and just, you know,

31:51chaos. It was just like some of the

31:53videos were just barbaric and

31:54disgusting.

31:55>> And did Baron was

31:56>> Yeah. And he was claiming that that's

31:57his uncle

31:58>> with pride.

31:59>> With pride. With pure pride. Yeah.

32:01>> And so was Baron one of the ones

32:03planning on coming over to the UK.

32:05>> He Yeah. He was he he claimed that he'd

32:08paid uh €1,800

32:10to a smuggler who he'd met online to get

32:13over to the UK. and he was with his

32:15brother who lived in who who his brother

32:18lived in Germany. He's um and there was

32:21a couple of Syrian lads there and an

32:23Egyptian fella. Um they were all

32:26pleasant enough to me, but you know,

32:27some of the stuff that they were talking

32:29about and that they showed me was just

32:31mind-blowing.

32:32>> Yeah. And this is a question for the

32:33audience. You've heard Christian

32:36describe what he saw on Baron on Baron's

32:40phone and how proud he was of this

32:43gratuitous graphic violence. Well, it's

32:46a it's a snuff movie. It's it's it's vi

32:48it's murder that you witnessed. Now, do

32:51we want these sort of people in the UK?

32:53Let's just say that even one in a 100red

32:55is like Baron. Is it worth the risk? I

32:58always say that. Is it worth the risk?

33:00>> You know what? I actually believe that

33:01that you know one in 100 is probably

33:03being quite kind. And I'm and I'm giving

33:05people the benefit of the doubt here

33:06because I've also I've got very strong

33:08views and I've looked at this. We I put

33:10it under the microscope because I'm very

33:12worried about the future of the UK.

33:13>> Yeah.

33:14>> So, and I also know that you heard

33:17Iranian Kurds speaking which could s

33:19we're going to come to that because

33:20we're now going to move on to your your

33:22second mission. But that also could

33:24indicate that we've got the IRGC on

33:26their way over here. We've got we've got

33:27terrorists.

33:28>> Yeah.

33:28>> Not the IRGC, but you know there's

33:30there'll be there'll be a terrorist

33:32>> branches of it. branches of coming over

33:34to the UK and who knows what they've got

33:36in store. And the thing [clears throat]

33:37is now, I mean, Nazi Germany when they

33:40would storm other countries, they would

33:41storm countries, they would be in

33:42uniform. So, you knew you were being

33:44invaded there and then. But the way it's

33:46happening now, these people have been

33:47dripfed into the into our country, into

33:50society for God knows how many years

33:52now. The enemies that are amongst the

33:54migrants, they're here.

33:56>> Well, they're ready. Something I've

33:57started to think lately is really

34:00and this is a big shout. This is this is

34:02a big shout and I'm not bothered if I

34:04get any criticism for it because you

34:06know I've been into the camps. I've been

34:08in I've been on the boat. I I've I'm I'm

34:10looking at what's on social media. I'm

34:12looking at the country go down going

34:14downhill. I I I'm starting to wonder

34:16whether this is the start of World War

34:18II. You know, if somebody says that I'm

34:20wrong, try and debate with me that it's

34:21not. We've got cyber attacks coming from

34:23all different countries. We've got

34:25people flooding in on the southern

34:26border. We've got people in in in in the

34:29government, you know, and in elected

34:31positions who have totally different

34:33values from, you know, what our country

34:35originally has stood up for over

34:37thousands of years. How is it not the

34:39start of World War II?

34:40>> Well, I'm not going to contest that.

34:43There's no way I would debate that. It

34:44seems perfectly plausible to me. I mean,

34:46if you'd have said this to me 20 years

34:48ago,

34:49>> I would have said, "No, as if that's

34:50ever going to happen." And here we are

34:52literally seeing with our own eyes the

34:53the unbelievable. Let's move on to your

34:56second mission where you where you were

34:57successful on getting onto the dingies.

34:59Now a what made you go back considering

35:01the last time you were there you were

35:02told you were going to be killed. You

35:03could hear submachine guns firing in the

35:05air. You were told that the Taliban are

35:07there. The mafia are orchestrating the

35:09whole thing. You probably had zero faith

35:11in the police because they sound to me

35:13like they're a part of it. Yeah.

35:15>> Speculation. But what makes a man think

35:17I'm going to go back for more and I'm

35:19going to go that much further? And what

35:20was the mission and how did you plan it

35:22and what was the intelligence and what

35:23steps did you take?

35:24>> I tell you what, I've done a few things

35:26in between. So I've been watching home

35:28office tweets. I've been watching home

35:30office tweets and um you know there's

35:32this there's this sort of like 46 thou

35:34well it's actually 48,000 now crossings

35:37prevented. there's the they put put out

35:40a tweet saying, "Oh, um within 44 days

35:43we will we destroy all um the vessels

35:46within 44 days of seizing them." So,

35:48I've gotve I've gone to dove. I've I've

35:50been up to the Home Office compound,

35:51poke poke me head over the fence, and

35:53you know, I'm looking at hundreds and

35:55hundreds, this was earlier in the year,

35:57I'm looking at hundreds of vessels and

35:58engines just sat in the home office

36:01compound, and I'm thinking, there's no

36:04way that these are being destroyed in

36:05the time frame that they're telling

36:06people they are. So, I'm just I'm like

36:08there there's lie. There's a lie there.

36:10Um I've put uh I put I put an FOI in

36:14they've about something else. They've

36:16come back the to the home office.

36:17They've come back to me saying, "Oh,

36:19it's not in the public interest that we

36:21give you the information on the FO FOI

36:23that you've requested, you know, and I'm

36:25just thinking they are just fobbing us

36:27off, you know. So, I want to go I want

36:29to go over I want to see what happens on

36:32on the journey. I want to I want to try

36:34and, you know, deal with a smuggler to

36:37the point of um to the point of of of

36:40knowing what happens and knowing if

36:42people are paying, seeing what the

36:44police do and and and just the sheer

36:46desire to find the truth to be honest is

36:48is what made me go back.

36:49>> Cuz the first time you went there, you

36:50went disguised as a foreign man. You

36:53grew a beard and you went by the name of

36:56>> um Aroat. [laughter]

36:59I feel like it just rolls off the

37:00tongue. You know what I mean? And what's

37:02that mean? Sunrise.

37:03>> Sunrise. Yeah, sunrise.

37:05>> But what about the second? Because you

37:06grew the beard, you went on sunbeds, you

37:08drank orange juice, you done everything

37:09you can to look for, sound foreign.

37:11>> Yeah.

37:12>> Tremendous performance, by the way.

37:14>> Appreciate that.

37:14>> Wow. But the second time,

37:17>> yeah.

37:17>> Did you change your approach?

37:19>> The second time I thought to myself,

37:22well, do you know what? As as much as I

37:24tried with all that, it was just it was

37:25one, it was unsustainable. Two, I don't

37:27think he got me got me any further than

37:29if I had just pitched up normally. And I

37:31just thought, you know, these these are

37:33criminals that I'm dealing with these

37:34smugglers. So maybe I I align myself

37:37with them. I'll I'll go over as some

37:38sort of criminal. I need a valid reason

37:41for why an Englishman might be coming

37:43back to the UK um on a boat or trying so

37:48you know to go undetected by the

37:50authorities. Even though I know knew we

37:52I would get detected in their minds. You

37:55know, I'm thinking if I go if I come

37:58back to the UK, I'm a criminal. I want

38:01to get back into the UK because I'm on

38:03the run from the police. I just thought,

38:04do you know what? It checks out that

38:05story. I think I think it works. Um, and

38:09you know, I I just made a promise to the

38:11smuggler who I dealt with and and I'll

38:12stand I'll stand to this because despite

38:15it being a criminal, if if you make a

38:17promise, a promise is a promise. and

38:18just said, "Listen, as long as you get

38:20me on a boat without any problems, I'll

38:22I'll I'll not cause you any problems."

38:24And um you know, we made a gentleman's

38:27handshake over a WhatsApp message and

38:28and that's what we stuck to.

38:30>> So, what was the process? What was the

38:31first step right up until the point?

38:34This will probably be a lengthy answer

38:35from you cuz get all the detail in there

38:37as well so people can visualize what you

38:40actually done.

38:43handler right

38:48before

38:49it move on to the final section.

38:52>> So, I get on Tik Tok. I've been

38:54searching Tik Tok. So, I've I've been

38:56well tuned into it. My algorithm's tuned

38:57into it. I'm pulling these numbers off.

38:59I'm speaking to these people and you

39:02know, next thing you know, I've just

39:03I've just got this one guy who seems to

39:05be sort of texting me more than the

39:06others. So, I've said, "Yeah, you know

39:09what? I've gone to meet him." Obviously,

39:10what I didn't realize is these people

39:12don't meet you. They send you to meet

39:13somebody.

39:15So, I'm in France. I've got back to the

39:18Dunkerk jungle. This was a couple of

39:20weeks. So, this this is this is only,

39:22you know, a couple of months ago. This

39:24it's quite recent. And I'm on FaceTime.

39:26I can't see him. He can see me. You

39:28know, brother, go left, go right. Uh,

39:30cross the bridge. Someone's going to

39:33come out the trees on the phone,

39:34approach him. So sure enough, I'm

39:36walking down to this, you know, this

39:38group of migrants. Bloke comes out the

39:41woods looking around on the phone. I

39:43wave, he waves back at me. Next thing

39:45you know, sort of takes me into the

39:47woods and says, "Right, there's your

39:48tent. Um, you know, you're you're

39:51staying in that one." Everyone's sort of

39:52quite friendly, to be honest. So, I'm

39:54thinking, "Happy days. I'm I'm I'm on

39:57for getting a boat here." Anyway, next

39:59thing you know, uh, his pals come over.

40:02You're European. We don't trust you as

40:04please inform. police informer. So, I've

40:07gone, listen, I've got the money here,

40:09which is, you know, it wasn't the most

40:11pleasant thing to get the money out

40:12front. I've got the money here. I'm

40:14getting a boat. Same as you. I am not,

40:16you know, in at in this moment, I'm sort

40:18of kidding myself that I am a British

40:20criminal and I've not been back to the

40:22UK for 5 years. I'm starting to believe

40:24it myself.

40:25>> As your acting skills kicking in?

40:26>> Yeah. [laughter]

40:28So, I'm like, I'm not going anywhere.

40:30I'm I'm staying here. No, brother. Next

40:32thing you know, there's there's 20

40:34meters away from me. the the shotguns

40:35getting fired and stuff and I'm thinking

40:37I I've got no security. The only person

40:40that knows I'm in those woods is

40:42Isabelle. Um you know she's got me on on

40:44fire my friends on and she you know I've

40:47just said right I'm going I'm going dark

40:48for a bit. The shotgun going off. I'm

40:51thinking you know what I've got to I've

40:53got to get out of here. I can't argue

40:55with these people stay cuz I'm waking oh

40:56I won't be waking up in the morning. So

40:59I get out of there. I said to her listen

41:00I said you know I thought we were I

41:03thought we were on with this guy. It's

41:04not happening.

41:05>> So that what was your handler a female?

41:06>> No. So the Isabelle Isabelle I work

41:08with? Yeah. Isabelle Oak Shop. So she So

41:11because everything that we we've done,

41:13you know, all these investigations,

41:14>> you reported back.

41:15>> She she she's been on the phone every

41:17day. So Okay. You know,

41:18>> you had someone to communicate with at

41:20all times.

41:21>> Yeah. Because you know what? Um what

41:23what what a godsend that was as well

41:25because you do need to sense check stuff

41:27in those moments. I mean, she's she's

41:29she's obviously at home sort of, you

41:31know, um [laughter]

41:34she's at home sort of in a normal

41:35mindset and you know,

41:36>> in a wing back chair with a Sherry

41:38>> while you [laughter] while you're in the

41:39middle of a migrant camp with submachine

41:40guns being [ __ ] fired

41:42>> and and a Heineken as well to be fair. I

41:44tell you what, they do like to drink

41:45those migrants, but [laughter and gasps]

41:47where were we now? Um

41:49>> you kind of fronted them and said, "I've

41:50got the money here. I'm not an

41:52>> informer. I've got out of these woods."

41:53I thought, "Get out. Get out." I ring

41:55her up. I said, "Listen, I'm coming

41:56back. This is not this is not happening.

41:58It's not happening. So, I've come back

42:00home at this point. Anyway, I've been

42:02speaking to this guy time and time

42:03again. And I've gone, you know what?

42:06This guy, I said, I'm going to say to

42:07him, I don't want to go in the in the

42:09jungle. And then that way you might

42:11think that I'm not a police inform. And

42:12I just said, I just rang him up. I said,

42:14listen, mate. I said,

42:16um, I I need to get back to the UK.

42:18There's loads of other smugglers online.

42:20I said, are you going to are you going

42:22to help me out or not? started getting

42:23up front, you know, sort of verbally

42:25throwing my weight around with him. He's

42:27turned around to me. He's going, "Oh,

42:28brother, brother, calm down. Calm down.

42:29You know, I'll help you. I'll help you."

42:31I said, "Listen, I'm not bothered about

42:32going to the Dunkerk jungle." Cuz I'm

42:34thinking, if he thinks I'm not bothered

42:35about going there, it makes me look even

42:37more like I'm not trying to get

42:39information.

42:39>> You're just determined to get on the

42:40dinghy.

42:41>> That's it. So, I've turned around to

42:42him. I said, "Right, okay." I said, "Uh,

42:44in a in a week or two, I'll come back

42:46from Barcelona where I told him I was

42:48living."

42:49So I um so I sort of prepare myself

42:53again mentally for a couple of weeks,

42:54get get myself ready to get going and um

42:57yeah, headed back over to France and um

43:00and this is where it all began with the

43:02final trip, should we call it? I ring

43:04him up say, "Listen, brother, what's

43:05going on? Where I need to get this boat,

43:08you know, where where am I going?" He

43:10messes me around different directions. I

43:12follow a wrong group of migrants, you

43:14know. I'm I'm I'm with this group of

43:16migrants that I think I'm going to the

43:17to the boat with. and carrying bloody

43:19babies and pramms and all sorts onto the

43:21trains and you know it's it was all just

43:23chaos. Anyway, turns out it was the

43:24wrong group that I'd latched on to. Um

43:27so I just said [ __ ] hell man I've

43:28been waiting here for an hour. What's

43:30going on? So I get down back to to the

43:34train station that he originally told me

43:35to go to. He said right go to this camp

43:39and meet um meet meet the guy that

43:42you're going to pay pay the money to.

43:44Anyway, I go I go walking down this road

43:47for for a good half an hour into the

43:50sticks. I'm thinking, right, this is

43:53pretty shady. This I'm in the middle of

43:55some woods away from anything here in

43:57the middle of a load of fields. And then

43:59I just sort of look to my right and

44:01there's there's a little path and then a

44:03few tents in the woodland. I thought,

44:05well, what's the worst thing that can

44:06happen? So, I walk down into this um I

44:09walk down into this woodland into this

44:11little encampment in the woodland and uh

44:14there's a bloke sort of comes over to

44:16me. Um still speaking to the bloke now,

44:18still got his number. Um you know, he

44:21he's an illegal illegal immigrant, but

44:23he he he became a bit of a friend to be

44:25honest in that moment. Um whether he's

44:27seen the news or not, I don't know.

44:29>> He might have recognized you.

44:30>> Yeah. But anyway, so so he he ended up

44:32sort of said, "Listen, ring him now."

44:34They spoke to each other on the phone.

44:36Obviously knew knew each other to some

44:38extent. Could speak the same lingo. I

44:41couldn't understand a word that was

44:42being said. And um and yeah, he said

44:45next thing you know he put my phone

44:46down, give me my phone back. He said,

44:48"That's your tent." So I thought, "Happy

44:50days. Something's going well." Anyway,

44:52next thing you know, he's he's coming

44:53over to me. He's like, "Brother, uh you

44:54want hashish crack hashish cocaine?" All

44:58this stuff. I'm like, "No, no, mate. No,

45:00I've got a few beers. Don't worry about

45:01me."

45:02>> He said, "No, mate. I've got a boat to

45:03catch in the morning." [laughter] Yeah.

45:04Anyway, next thing you know, he he's

45:06there just like, you know, cooking up

45:08crack on the bottom of Heineken tin in

45:10um in the jungle. I'm just sort of sat

45:13there watching all this go on and you

45:14know, the other guys smoking hashish and

45:17um you know, it's that's just normal to

45:19them. Just normal behavior, you know,

45:22cooking up crack in in those migrant

45:23camps is normal.

45:24>> Was there no singing around the

45:25campfire? [laughter]

45:27>> Yeah. Well, they did they were playing

45:28some tunes, but uh it wasn't my kind of

45:30music. Let me just put it that way. Was

45:32there any praying going on in these

45:34camps?

45:34>> No, there's none of that. I've not seen

45:36anyone be religious in in those

45:37settings. Um, which is kind of weird,

45:40isn't it? Cuz you know, all of a sudden

45:41they get to where they want to set up

45:43and they go all religious. But um but

45:46no, no, I've not seen anyone pray to be

45:48honest in those situations. But um so so

45:51these BS were both Syrian and

45:55um they claimed that they've fled Syria.

45:58They showed me some pictures of, you

46:00know, some like sort of rubble in in

46:03Syria and said that's our home. But then

46:05I realized actually they weren't they've

46:07not they not come although they were had

46:09originally come from Syria, they'd been

46:11living in Turkey for a while now. It's

46:13very hard to communicate with these

46:14people cuz you've got Google Translate

46:16and that's it. You know, they don't

46:18speak most of them don't speak English

46:20and if they do it's only a couple of

46:21words. Um, so I'm I'm having I'm trying

46:24to have conversations, you know, I'm

46:27sort of finding out that actually even

46:29though he did live in Syria, he was

46:30living, you know, and his house might

46:32he's got no family cuz they were blown

46:34they were blown up and and obviously the

46:36buildings that we were showing were

46:37blown to pieces, you know, even though

46:40they have been living in that situation,

46:41they have fled that situation, normally

46:44what's happened is they found somewhere

46:45else safe to live anyway. So these guys

46:47had been living in Turkey anyway for a

46:49while, which last time I checked wasn't

46:52at war, you know. Um so so yeah, um

46:57obviously next thing you know he says,

46:58"Right, we're going in the morning."

47:00This this other group appear um at like

47:03say 3:00 in the morning, middle of the

47:04night, they just appear. Um so they he

47:07So this guy that I'm with is the group

47:09leader. He is the group leader.

47:12So I'm thinking, right, you know, he's

47:14telling everyone where to go. He's on

47:15the phone to people speaking, you know,

47:17speak to various people, getting the

47:18instructions off the smuggler and um all

47:22these other people are following him.

47:23I'm thinking great. Well, I've just sat

47:25with him all evening speaking to him.

47:26We've got on. So, at least I know when

47:28I'm in with him. Gets to the point uh

47:31you know where there's just police vans

47:34flying up. I mean, it's sort of

47:36twilight. It's coming to like dawn and

47:38um it's such a bizarre time in the

47:41morning because obviously you know the

47:42police are getting ready to go out for

47:44for the um for for the the the boat

47:47setting off. So there's police vans

47:49flying everywhere. There's nothing else

47:50going on at that time in France apart

47:52from migrants walking the street and

47:54police flying everywhere and the the odd

47:55drone and and police um spotter plane

47:59flying over. So really sort of eerie

48:01time in the morning. But the police

48:02don't ever stop the migrants who are all

48:04walking down the roads with life

48:05jackets. They just drive past them. You

48:08would have thought it'd be a great time

48:09to arrest them because quite clearly at

48:115 in the morning with a life jacket

48:12heading down towards to get a boat.

48:14>> And who issues the life jackets to

48:16charities?

48:16>> Some of them have them themselves. Um

48:19some of them just, you know, I mean,

48:20listen, if you leave something lying

48:21around in those in those uh in the north

48:23of France, you know, if someone walks

48:25past it, it's gone. you know, it's you

48:28can't I've made the mistake of leaving a

48:29woolly hat um lying around and within

48:32minutes, you know, one of the other lads

48:33was wearing it. So, you can't leave

48:36anything lying around. So, yeah, people

48:37people pick stuff up. Char some

48:39charities donate the live jackets and

48:41some just go without them. Um so, yeah.

48:44Anyway, we get down to this um we get

48:47down to this canal. Um the guy I saw the

48:50guy go over. Um so, Alli um who was the

48:54group leader.

48:55>> Was he your handler? He was my handler

48:57who had paid. I saw him go and hand the

48:59money to this other guy. So, we're down

49:01by this canal. We're waiting on the

49:03canal canal. Um, it's the canal in

49:06Calali. And we're thinking like we're

49:08getting a boat. I'm thinking bloody

49:09hell. We're supposed to be getting a

49:10boat from the canal into the sea sort of

49:13thing or the river into the sea. I'm not

49:15sure whether it was I think it was a

49:16canal to be honest. Um, but um anyway,

49:20that never ended up coming. So, it's

49:21like oh no, we're not going from here

49:23now. Plans have changed. So we had to go

49:26and trek to some dunes um some dunes

49:28near Calali near the beach of Cali. So

49:31we get to these dunes and it's obviously

49:33it's broad daylight by now and um not

49:36slept a wink and uh you know these this

49:39family is carrying the kids this

49:41Sudanese family. I've got my two Syrian

49:44um associates with me and uh there's

49:48police everywhere. This this particular

49:50morning there's police everywhere. And

49:52now Andy Burnham and the French police

49:53had just, you know, in the in the news

49:55the couple of days before have just been

49:57being hammered for all the sort of the

49:59surge in boat uh you know in boats that

50:01have come over. So I'm thinking there's

50:05a lot of police presence here now. Just

50:06I'm thinking just my look all of a

50:08sudden you know Andy Burnham's coming

50:11power. Um well, you know, I'm I'm going

50:15to they've they've ended up increasing

50:17police activity and I'm not going to be

50:18able they're going to end up stopping

50:19the boats before I've managed to get on

50:21one and find out what was happening. So,

50:23um sure enough, on this particular

50:25morning, police presence everywhere. So

50:28many police on the beach. They've

50:29obviously had a bit of a kicking from

50:31someone. Um so, yeah, we're waiting in

50:34the dunes. There was a bit of a gap from

50:37groups of police walking down. The Sudin

50:39lot just ran. They just ran down to the

50:41water. They get into the water and you

50:45know and the police just sort of stand

50:46there looking at them. As soon as

50:47they're in the water, the police won't

50:49go and get them. They won't stop them.

50:50To be fair, they don't stop them anyway,

50:52but they they say once they're in the

50:54water waist deep, the police can't go

50:56and get them.

50:57>> I've seen the footage in the distance.

50:58You can see the warships.

51:00>> You can see the Navy are present.

51:01>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

51:02>> So, if the police are on the beach and

51:04the Navy are in the shore, how the how

51:06is it continuing? Well, they're saying

51:08that the police won't go in the water to

51:09get them up if they're waist deep.

51:11>> So, they won't they but they don't go

51:12they don't get them anyway. They don't

51:14arrest them. They just get they just try

51:16and get in the way. So,

51:18>> it's all a bit of an illusion really.

51:19It's all a bit of like, you know, just

51:21just for the sh just for the just for

51:23show, just for the camera.

51:24>> An insult of the British public. Well,

51:26all the public's intelligence really,

51:28isn't it?

51:28>> Realistically. Yeah. It's I feel like

51:30it's creating situations that are just a

51:33load of nonsense. you know, it's it's

51:34creating situations for people to take

51:36pictures of and then think about. Um,

51:39which, you know, there's there's no

51:41there's no solution there because they

51:43they might they might try and stop them

51:45from going into the water, but then they

51:46just send them back up into the dunes.

51:48>> Well, they'll just go through the dunes

51:50and go down that way and the police have

51:51gone that way and then they're in the

51:52water anyway.

51:53>> So, these lot get into the water. Um,

51:56what the the handler, the main guy is

51:58gone. He's disappeared. And I'm

52:00thinking, hang on a sec. I'm with I'm

52:02with this one guy now. I need to get

52:05down to the water. I thought the boats

52:06obviously I can see the boat in the

52:07distance slowly slowly coming. So I'm

52:10thinking I've got to get down there

52:12because I'm not missing this. I said I'm

52:14not going through all this and missing

52:15it. So I just said to this lad said,

52:17"You're either coming with me or you're

52:19not." So we take off. Next thing you

52:21know, sure enough, six coppers bang just

52:23right in front of us. Appeared from

52:24nowhere. So we're getting sir. He pulls

52:27me camera out me pocket, has a look at

52:29that, puts it back in me pocket and um

52:32and then he's he's rooting me through me

52:34waste bag. Um me passports in there

52:37which was that was this was the moment

52:39where I thought

52:40>> that'd be game over for you.

52:41>> Well, that that would be me. Handcuffs,

52:42people smuggling, you know. um that

52:45arrested on suspicion of not that I was

52:47but um they would have probably arrested

52:49me in that moment because it would have

52:51just blown the mind the fact that a

52:53British guys is on the way down to the

52:54water with um with migrants with so so

52:59anyway fortunately didn't pull my

53:00passport out the wastist bag and um and

53:03then they just made us sit on the beach

53:05they walked off and then I said right

53:07I'm going and I just legged it down to

53:08the beach and they just watched us run

53:10to to the sea and they just watched us

53:12run to the sea Um it's quite quite

53:14exhilarating to be honest. Quite it's

53:16quite good fun in the moment. Um and um

53:20we wait for hours and hours.

53:22>> But once you were in the dinghy

53:23>> once we're in the water. So we're stood

53:25in the water for hours.

53:26>> Right.

53:26>> So we started walking down towards the

53:28direction of where the dinghy was coming

53:30from. It was moving very very slow this

53:32dinghy.

53:33>> And where does the dinghy come from? Is

53:34it doing like as if it was a bus picking

53:37people up from different places?

53:38>> Yeah. So it starts off at the furthest

53:40most point from the direction it's

53:42going. and uh it heads up the coast and

53:44there there'll be certain groups lined

53:46up on the beaches ready to jump on it.

53:50>> So um but but yeah, I mean you raised a

53:53good question now. These dingies are

53:56supposed to be being launched from the

53:59beach, but are they? No, no one's no

54:03one's taking um videos of them being run

54:05down the beach anymore. Like when was

54:07the last time you saw one? I think there

54:08was one that was stopped by the police

54:10on the beach the other day. um that was

54:12on the news a couple of days before, you

54:15know, before today and uh the police

54:18were getting rocks thrown at and stuff,

54:20but um are they being launched at sea

54:22now? Who knows? I don't know. I I I

54:25don't think there's been many launch uh

54:27you know that have been witnessed being

54:28launched cuz they are coming from that

54:30far down the coast. Um but yeah,

54:33sometimes you you know, you'll first

54:35spot the dinghy and you think, "Hang on,

54:36that's miles out at sea there." M.

54:38>> So part part of me is now wondering

54:40whether they are launching them out at

54:41sea.

54:42>> And how many was in the dingy that you

54:43got in on the first occasion?

54:45>> There must have been over 100 in there

54:46>> cuz you look like sardines all crushed

54:48in there.

54:48>> I'd probably say there was over 80, but

54:50there was more trying to get on. And u

54:53once we'd finally scrambled to get on

54:54this boat, it was chaos. Oh, it was

54:56absolute chaos. You know, there's people

54:59like trying to clamber to get on. You

55:00know, I'm watching people that that are

55:02trying to get to the boat and and they,

55:05you know, they they're realizing that

55:07they're actually they're trying to get

55:08to a boat and they can't swim, you

55:10[laughter] know. They're realizing in

55:11that moment you can see it in the face.

55:13>> They didn't think that bit through, did

55:14they?

55:15>> So, you're watching all that. I mean, I

55:16laugh now, but it's quite harrowing to

55:18watch. But, um,

55:19>> you were you nervous or was the

55:21adrenaline too

55:22>> just you know, I was just so grateful to

55:24be on a boat. I'm thinking I'm on the

55:26boat. Happy days.

55:27>> And you've got recording devices.

55:28>> I've got recording devices. I'm

55:29thinking, you know, I've dropped one of

55:31my cameras in the sea, but I've just

55:32thought, s I'm on the boat now. I'm not

55:34I'm not bothered, you know, I'd

55:36literally bought that, especially for

55:37the trip and it was in the sea, but I

55:39just I just I was that happy to be on

55:40the boat after that long. I thought, you

55:42know what, we're near we're nearly here

55:43now. We you know, we're documenting the

55:45process. The police are just on the

55:46beach. They are coming a bit close. Next

55:48thing you know, I'm looking down to to

55:50the boat. I'm looking at the hull and

55:51the hull's got this sort of, you know,

55:53it's got a bit of a weird shape and I'm

55:54thinking that doesn't look right. That

55:55doesn't look right. Something not right

55:57there. And then the the engine kept

55:59cutting out. We're drifting more more

56:02towards towards the the beach basically

56:04to we're going to uh be beach beached on

56:07the beach. I'm thinking there's a lot of

56:09people on this boat here. That engine's

56:11tiny. He's revving its knackers off off

56:14that and and we're not moving anywhere.

56:17>> So all of a sudden, next thing you know,

56:19one of the police has just seen him

56:20running into the into the water. So I'm

56:22thinking, what's go I didn't I didn't

56:23know what was going on at the at that in

56:24that moment. And next thing you know, he

56:26just whips out his knife, sticks it in

56:28the dinghy, rips it down the back of it,

56:31and and obviously I look to my left, I'm

56:34sat on the right side of the boat. Look

56:35to my left, and there's just a load of

56:37police there pointing guns at us, like

56:38loads of them. So that at that moment,

56:41first thing that goes through my head is

56:42like, "Oh, I don't fancy getting shot by

56:45not even a real a real gun. I thought

56:46wonder if it's rubber bullets or

56:47something, you know."

56:48>> Um, I don't fancy that. So, you know, I

56:51just started running. Everyone else was

56:52running and uh yeah um the the police

56:56popped it.

56:57>> And did the police make any arrests?

56:58>> They arrested one guy. Yeah, they

57:00arrested one guy at gunpoint and uh you

57:02know he he had he was slammed down to

57:04the beach. He had his arms behind his

57:05back and he was handcuffed.

57:06>> So out of 80 people on the boat,

57:08>> one guy arrested

57:09>> on the dinghy. They made one arrest and

57:10also out of curiosity, out of the 80

57:12people that were on the dinghy,

57:14>> how many women and children were on

57:16there? On that particular one, there was

57:19a probably about six kids and I'd

57:22probably say about four women.

57:23>> So, there were children on that deal.

57:25>> On that one, there were Yeah, because

57:26there was there was five kids with one

57:28family,

57:29>> right?

57:30>> So, that was like, you know, um but they

57:33they they were they were with us. They

57:34were with me all night from the from the

57:36moment I left the camp, those kids. And

57:39um they just didn't have a clue. They

57:40didn't have a clue what they were

57:41walking into. I mean, I'm I'm sort of

57:43sat there looking at looking at this

57:45family. you know what one woman's bottle

57:47feeding I couldn't see you know how old

57:50the kid was because it had a sheet over

57:52the kid but one woman's bottle feeding

57:54you know the the kid that she's holding

57:56so you know it's got to be a baby hasn't

57:58it um and and the other ones are just

58:00sort of sat there dead quietly being

58:02told off don't keep quiet don't make any

58:04noise and that moment stuck with me to

58:07be honest that moment stuck with me

58:08because I'm I'm looking at these kids

58:10thinking hang on a second if if

58:12something goes bad out at sea none of

58:15family have got a life jacket. You know,

58:18although I'm although I'm recording this

58:20and I'm trying to find out what's

58:21happened, you know, I've got a duty, you

58:24know, I've got a duty care to not let

58:26these kids die. Do you know what I mean?

58:27Imagine that being on your conscience.

58:29>> Totally. And you and you suspect also

58:30that they're not fleeing war.

58:32>> I mean, these were Sudin, so there's a

58:34chance that there is a there is a civil

58:36war in Sudan, but how bad

58:38>> is not the closest place of refuge, is

58:39it?

58:39>> Well, that's it. Yeah. You know, that

58:40that's the key point.

58:41>> This is my bone of contention. Yeah.

58:43Like whoever comes over the channel,

58:45>> if you're bringing kids, you're you're

58:47putting them in grave danger,

58:48>> especially without a life jacket.

58:50>> And you're not fleeing war from Cali.

58:52>> Yeah. Exactly.

58:54Exactly. So, I'm looking at these kids

58:55thinking your family's your mom and

58:57dad's not got life jacket on, your uncle

58:59or whoever that is hasn't got life

59:00jacket. The second you your kids go in

59:03that water, you're going to be panicking

59:05and it's going to be chaos. I'm thinking

59:06I you know I'm I'm thinking wow the you

59:09know this I hope this boat doesn't go

59:10down cuz this is going to this is going

59:12to end up being a horrific situation.

59:14You know there's one thing that you hear

59:16about on the news like oh two women have

59:18died on a dingy and you know I mean I'm

59:21pretty sure most people will agree

59:22sometimes you read a headline and it's

59:24it's hard to grasp the reality of how

59:26horrific that moment must have been. M

59:29>> I'm literally sort of thinking about I'm

59:31thinking this through my head looking at

59:33these kids thinking I I hope I don't

59:35have to I hope nothing goes wrong cuz

59:37otherwise I'm going to be stuck with

59:38that for the rest of me life. You know

59:39what I mean? Watching these kids drown

59:41and everybody drown in the in in the

59:43sea. So I'm starting to I'm starting to

59:45get a bit stressed about that in my own

59:47head um before we got on the boat. So

59:50yeah, the the boat had no chance of

59:52getting across the channel anyway. Um

59:54the engine was knackered and and that

59:56for me is the reason why the police

59:58decided to pop it. Um and also like you

1:00:01said again, is it a bit of pantomime?

1:00:03Did they know that that boat wasn't

1:00:04going to get across? So they thought

1:00:06we'll launch this one and let the police

1:00:07think [clears throat] they've had one.

1:00:09>> Yeah.

1:00:09>> There's no way that engine was ever

1:00:10going to push that dingy over the

1:00:11channel. It was too small. So for me

1:00:14again, it's it's just there you go

1:00:16coppers. We'll let you have we'll we'll

1:00:17we'll give you we'll throw you a bit of

1:00:19something. Well, the thing that made me

1:00:21think, well, that's definitely

1:00:22pantomime. Was it the next day that you

1:00:24got on the next boat where you were

1:00:25successful?

1:00:26>> Yeah, the next day. And also the

1:00:28difference was on the next day the the

1:00:31engine was totally different. It was

1:00:32like, you know, it was like the the the

1:00:34engines all the engines that are in the

1:00:37home office compound. It was the exact

1:00:38same as that.

1:00:39>> So, I'm looking at this thing thinking,

1:00:41"Oh, I know a few of those engines have

1:00:42made it over. The dinghy looks in good

1:00:44nick." So, and there's not that many

1:00:46people on it. So there was a great

1:00:49difference between both vessels and

1:00:51engines if you like.

1:00:51>> And was the was there the same police

1:00:53presence as there was the day before?

1:00:55>> So we we walked down to the shorelines

1:00:57walk/run cuz you know they were that

1:00:59excited to get down there and obviously

1:01:02they're a lot better runners.

1:01:03>> And I'm assuming in the morning, sorry

1:01:05to interrupt, I'm assuming in the

1:01:06morning your handler gave you the nod.

1:01:08>> Yes,

1:01:09>> we'll be there. We're doing it again.

1:01:11>> So as we'd left that sort of punching

1:01:12dingy, get to the afternoon, you know,

1:01:15they get a bottle of JD. I'm just I'm

1:01:17just knackered anyway. So, I'm lying on

1:01:19the beach. Wake wake wake wake up 5

1:01:20hours later with a bit of sunburn.

1:01:23And I've got no shoes. I've lost half my

1:01:25clothes. And to be fair, you know, like

1:01:28he he'd come and brought me some food.

1:01:29One of the lads, oh, come on. Let's have

1:01:31some food. We need food. Let's go and

1:01:33get somewhere to get some rest. But to

1:01:35them, to get some rest is like, you

1:01:37know, put your life jacket down as your

1:01:38pillow and uh and sleep in a park. So,

1:01:41again, um we're in a park in Cali. I

1:01:44don't know if you've seen that big

1:01:45building that all the migrants stand

1:01:46outside of. It's got the big spire. Um,

1:01:49and there's a park opposite that. We

1:01:51just slept in the park there on the

1:01:52grass. It was It was freezing. It was

1:01:54horrific to be fair. But yeah, so

1:01:57anyway, next thing you know, I've gone

1:01:58to the car, say 12 at night, start to

1:02:00charge my devices cuz I'm running on

1:02:02literally battery packs.

1:02:04>> That's right. And your car that was

1:02:05parked away from the camps, obviously

1:02:08nobody knew about it.

1:02:09>> Nobody knew about it.

1:02:09>> The handler didn't know about it. So you

1:02:11would go back and forth, charge your

1:02:12devices, report back home.

1:02:14>> Yeah, that's it. So I've gone I'd gone

1:02:16there, whacked the heaters on. I thought

1:02:18just have a bit of a moment to myself

1:02:20and uh charge everything.

1:02:22>> Imagine if you'd have been caught by one

1:02:23of them.

1:02:23>> Oh well, you know, I'd fallen asleep.

1:02:25I'd fallen asleep and I woke up

1:02:27obviously my phone was ringing. I woke

1:02:28up in a bit of a panic thinking, you

1:02:30know, has anybody walked past and see

1:02:32me? You know what I mean? [laughter]

1:02:33>> Anyway, sure enough, it was all okay. It

1:02:35was it was it was Alli ringing me to

1:02:37say, "Brother, where have you gone?

1:02:38Where have you gone?" He'd woken up from

1:02:39his sort of drunken stuper and um and

1:02:42he's it must have been sort of similar

1:02:45sort of time off 2 3 in the morning.

1:02:47Come back. Come back. We've we've got

1:02:48game. We've got they call it game. Um

1:02:50when you get in a boat so I'm think

1:02:53pulling myself together back down to the

1:02:55park. Couple of minutes walk from where

1:02:57where we slept and um yeah that was it.

1:03:01Get your life jackets, pack the bags.

1:03:02We're going we're going. So we walked

1:03:04for miles and miles to the big Cala uh

1:03:07hospital camp. We picked up a group of

1:03:09people there. They did the he he lined

1:03:12them up. He he rang the smuggler and he

1:03:14he put each one of them on FaceTime and

1:03:16said the names. So that was the way of

1:03:18them being checked to if they can go

1:03:20onto the boat.

1:03:20>> Right. [snorts]

1:03:21>> Then we headed towards Cali train

1:03:23station. We all got on the train station

1:03:25and we all got on the train at the

1:03:27station and we headed down towards

1:03:29Bologna Samar. Now, he told me where we

1:03:32were getting the boat from, and I knew

1:03:35which stop we needed to get off and

1:03:37which bus we needed to get because I've

1:03:39done I've done all the routes that many

1:03:40times following the migrants around. So,

1:03:43I'm saying, "Brother, we need to get off

1:03:44at this at this. We need to get off at

1:03:46this stop." He's like, "No, don't worry.

1:03:47Don't worry." Anyway, we missed the stop

1:03:48we're supposed to get off at cuz cuz he

1:03:50got it wrong. And we ended up going to

1:03:53further down the coast. We couldn't get

1:03:55back up because it was there was no

1:03:56trains available for hours. And who pays

1:03:59for all this public transport?

1:04:00>> So there are some free buses, there are

1:04:02some paid buses and the trains, what

1:04:07happens is obviously you're supposed to

1:04:08pay for the trains. There's no free

1:04:09trains. But what they do is because

1:04:12there's that many people who get on the

1:04:13trains at once in terms of the the

1:04:15illegal migrants. What happens is the um

1:04:20they they they just overface the train

1:04:22the ticket inspectors. the ticket

1:04:23inspector just throws his hands in the

1:04:25air, shakes his head, you know, says

1:04:27something in French and and storms on by

1:04:29>> because the trains are another place

1:04:31that could be policed hugely stop to it.

1:04:34>> Well, one of my key things is that if

1:04:36you get stopped in France, I don't know,

1:04:38I've not checked out whether it's actual

1:04:40law, but there's something where you're

1:04:41supposed to carry your ID with you at

1:04:43all times and if you can't produce it,

1:04:45you get arrested. Now, never mind the

1:04:47buses. If they just stopped the use of

1:04:48trains, the people smuggling routes

1:04:50across the north France would be shot to

1:04:52pieces. It would be so much harder for

1:04:55because none of none of them pay. Maybe

1:04:56the odd one in a blue moon might might

1:04:59buy a ticket for a couple of them, but

1:05:01I've only seen that once. Um, if they

1:05:04stop the use of public transport, then

1:05:06it would stop the illegal smuggling

1:05:07routes.

1:05:08>> There's just so many signs that indicate

1:05:10it's done by design. It's purposeful.

1:05:12Everyone's complicit. The whole criminal

1:05:14machine of it from start to finish.

1:05:16>> Well, you see the police that always

1:05:18stood at the train stations. They never

1:05:19do anything. They never do. They never

1:05:21do anything, you know. They just watch

1:05:23people go by, you know. I I've been

1:05:25searched at a um at a train station

1:05:28before uh by the Oh, I mean, I've been

1:05:30searched loads by the French police over

1:05:31there. They're always stopping me. But

1:05:33um but yeah, they never do anything.

1:05:36They just search you. It's just trying

1:05:37to create you a hassle. If they think

1:05:39you're following the migrants as well

1:05:41and and they and they know you're not a

1:05:42migrant, they they'll search you just to

1:05:44delay.

1:05:44>> They're probably more worried about

1:05:46journalists than they are migrants.

1:05:48>> Yeah. They don't want the truth to get

1:05:50out, do they? That's

1:05:52>> So anyway, so you so you're you're

1:05:53you're approaching this the second

1:05:55thing.

1:05:55>> So approaching this woodland and um it's

1:05:58just thick dense undergrowth and you

1:06:01know legs cut to pieces. Oh, it wasn't

1:06:04pleasant at all. 18 miles I did on that

1:06:07last day from waking up to get to the

1:06:09boat and um you know we're looking above

1:06:12us, police drones right above us. So it

1:06:14knew we were there. M

1:06:16>> police choppers, navy ships, always with

1:06:18these these um these dingies. I've never

1:06:20seen a dingy not accompanied by either a

1:06:22NATO ship or a French navy ship. So um

1:06:26so yeah, eventually um it's sort of

1:06:28getting more and more in line with it.

1:06:29I'm watching the Navy ship on on the

1:06:31Marine Traffic app as well. So I'm

1:06:32watching that get close to us. I can

1:06:35sort of tell how far away it is from us

1:06:36on that. And I've just said to him, I

1:06:38said, "We need to go." I said, "There's

1:06:39no police on that beach for miles and

1:06:41miles and miles now. The drone's above

1:06:42us, so it knows where we are." So he

1:06:44rings a smuggler. He said, "Go to beach.

1:06:47Go to be uh go to sea now." So we So

1:06:50when as soon as we get that call,

1:06:51everyone's just like made up, you know

1:06:52what I mean? You've been trekking for

1:06:53hours. Everyone's, you know, dehydrated.

1:06:56And you just sort of bomb it along the

1:06:57beach and you're thinking, "This is

1:06:59great. There's no police anywhere. We

1:07:01can see the dingy. Going to be in the

1:07:02water soon. Happy days." And uh to be

1:07:06honest, it was quite a calm quite a calm

1:07:08sort of um

1:07:10situation for us to get on the boat

1:07:11because it was just it was just so so

1:07:14you know, we had the freedom of as much

1:07:16time as we wanted.

1:07:17>> Was it as packed as it was the first

1:07:19time?

1:07:19>> No, there was probably about 15 people

1:07:21on there. So we had a group of about 20.

1:07:23We all piled on and um yeah, the

1:07:27smugglers were on there. So the

1:07:28smugglers are always on the boats. They

1:07:30launch them and guide them and they

1:07:32teach the the boat driver who is a

1:07:34migrant himself in disguise but put they

1:07:37put like a a disguise on. So they teach

1:07:39him how to do the how to drive the boat.

1:07:42Um they they have one guy who's on the

1:07:46maps. So they say so you know which

1:07:48direction to go in. I mean it's fairly

1:07:50obvious most of the time you can see the

1:07:51UK from France. So we're on the boat at

1:07:53this point. It's all fairly calm. I've

1:07:55got the Ray-B bands videoing bits and

1:07:57bobs. I'm thinking, I can't believe I'm

1:07:59actually on the boat and we're on the

1:08:00way. This is this is like, you know,

1:08:02it's happening. It's happening. You

1:08:03know, I'm thinking, got my life jacket

1:08:05on. Anyway, there's a Navy ship there.

1:08:07As we started getting a bit further

1:08:09along the coast, a little sort of rib

1:08:11search and rescue boat pulls up. He's

1:08:13got a load of life jackets on. He's

1:08:14handing all the migrants life jackets.

1:08:17Um, and yeah, it's all it's all very

1:08:20calm and very relaxed. So, we go to the

1:08:22last pickup and I'm just looking at the

1:08:24the beach. There's hundreds of people in

1:08:26life jackets on the beach. Um,

1:08:28>> and by this stage there's 35 of you, the

1:08:31smugglers and the driver.

1:08:32>> So, there's about 40 on our boat. Yeah.

1:08:34Including the smugglers. Um, and I'm

1:08:37just thinking if those lot get on, um,

1:08:40this is going to be uncomfortable. This

1:08:42is going to be bloody uncomfortable over

1:08:43the channel. Anyway, sure enough, he's

1:08:45had a disagreement with someone on the

1:08:46phone and, um, he's sort of shouting

1:08:50here and there in Iranian. So, he's sort

1:08:52of shouting, you know. Anyway, bit bits

1:08:54of English are coming out like, "Well,

1:08:56the we're not going today. I'll just

1:08:59park this on the beach. We're not

1:09:00going." So, I'm thinking, "What's going

1:09:02on here? What's going on?" Anyway, um he

1:09:06he decides to abort that last visit,

1:09:07which was bizarre because what happens

1:09:09is on the last visit, always the

1:09:11smugglers get off as the last people get

1:09:13on. So, that's the way they do. That's

1:09:15the way the smugglers get off. And then

1:09:17what they do is they do it sort of

1:09:18sneakily to pretend that they didn't

1:09:21they were part of the group and it

1:09:22didn't get on and then they get off, go

1:09:24back to shore, you know, pretend that oh

1:09:27my family, where's my family gone?

1:09:29>> Well, they were never with the family.

1:09:31They just got off the boat and they're

1:09:32ready to do the next one the next day.

1:09:34So that's how the smugglers operate. Um,

1:09:37so then very bizarrely, I'm thinking,

1:09:39well, if you if you've aborted aborted

1:09:41the visit, I guess you must be coming

1:09:43over to the UK all the way then. Anyway,

1:09:45sure enough, the search and rescue boat

1:09:47pulls up and uh you know and and he

1:09:50shouts over. He says, "Four people want

1:09:52to get off. Four people want to get

1:09:53off."

1:09:54>> Is this the French police?

1:09:55>> It's like the French sort of search and

1:09:56rescue. It's not the actual police. Um

1:10:00the police did show up once he'd said

1:10:03four people want to get off to the

1:10:04search and rescue.

1:10:05>> And how far out were you by this stage?

1:10:08>> We're a good hundred meters off the

1:10:09coastline now. And um you know, we're

1:10:11sort of starting to make our way over a

1:10:13little bit. Um, not too fast though.

1:10:16We're sort of pondering about while the

1:10:17smugglers are s sort of saying, you

1:10:18know, waiting to get their lift back.

1:10:20Anyway, the police turns up. He says, "I

1:10:22hear four people want to get off." Um,

1:10:24and they've got their boat. They've got

1:10:26their bow pressed on our bow of the

1:10:28boat. And we're just being spun in

1:10:30circles. We've got no power to turn or

1:10:32go anywhere. They're just taking us in a

1:10:34in a gentle circle, totally in control

1:10:36of our boat while they're talking to us.

1:10:39And then what happens is um they said,

1:10:41"Right, the four people get off. Is

1:10:43there anybody else who wants to get off?

1:10:45It's very choppy out there. This is your

1:10:48last chance. The best way to go to the

1:10:50UK today is to go back to France and not

1:10:53go at all. You know, that's the sort of

1:10:55things they were saying to us.

1:10:56Obviously, you know, pe once you've

1:10:59gotten that boat, you've tried that hard

1:11:00to get to that point. And, you know, you

1:11:03might have gone down to the beach a few

1:11:04times and for whatever reason, you know,

1:11:06you might not have been picked up. So,

1:11:08there's no way that you turn. There's no

1:11:10way you're choosing to not go over the

1:11:12channel when you're on that

1:11:13[clears throat] boat.

1:11:13>> More pantomime.

1:11:14>> Exactly. So these these four smugglers

1:11:16are now on the police boat. They get a

1:11:18lift back. So So I mean we're followed

1:11:20actually out a bit further. Search and

1:11:22rescue. Search and rescue come all the

1:11:24way over the channel with us

1:11:26um to to the halfway point. The police

1:11:29dropped off like you know after about 10

1:11:31minutes or so once they realizing that

1:11:32no one definitely wanted to get off.

1:11:34[gasps]

1:11:35Navy ship, big red big red Navy ship

1:11:38that's all the way over to the half

1:11:39point with us. That I mean that was even

1:11:41sort of I mean it was even sort of going

1:11:43in in positions where I'm sort of

1:11:45thinking I wonder why it's in that

1:11:46position. Um sort of sh in front of us a

1:11:49little bit. What it what it was doing

1:11:50was it was shielding the direction of

1:11:52the waves from us. So it was almost

1:11:54acting as like a wave break. Do you know

1:11:56what I mean for for the dinghy? Um so

1:11:59yeah, we get to um we get to that. You

1:12:03know, we've been going for hours, let me

1:12:04tell you. I mean, I even fell asleep at

1:12:06some point in the bottom of the boat.

1:12:08Fell to sleep for half an hour cuz it's

1:12:10just that long, cold, and painstakingly

1:12:12boring. Um, you know, everyone just sat

1:12:16there quiet just getting it inside the

1:12:18head with waves and and wind. I mean, I

1:12:20did

1:12:20>> Was it seven hours before Border Force

1:12:22met you?

1:12:22>> Yeah. Yeah. I had earache for days, do

1:12:24you know, from being hit by the wind in

1:12:26in in the side of the head? I've got to

1:12:28say just before you tell me about that

1:12:29experience and then the border force

1:12:31spir experience I'm sure everyone is

1:12:33interested in that part more than saying

1:12:36the whole thing is beyond belief and

1:12:39it's extremely interesting but just for

1:12:42me to echo what you said just so I can

1:12:44believe it

1:12:46>> the police have actually pulled

1:12:47alongside a dinghy full of illegal

1:12:50migrants and said who wants to get off

1:12:53we can take you back and the smugglers

1:12:55were the ones that got on and they fed

1:12:56the smugglers back and let everybody

1:12:58else just carry on.

1:13:00>> Yeah. I mean, that that was it. As

1:13:02simple as that. But but the the

1:13:03>> So blatant.

1:13:04>> Yeah. But the interesting thing about

1:13:05that for me is that in that moment, if

1:13:09they had wanted to push us back or tow

1:13:12us back, you know, they could have done.

1:13:14>> And did you get this all on camera?

1:13:15>> Oh, I've got it on camera. Yeah, I've

1:13:17got it on camera.

1:13:17>> So, there's evidence for this as well.

1:13:19>> Exactly. Exactly.

1:13:20>> They're not going to like you.

1:13:21>> No, I don't think I'll be going back to

1:13:22France for a while.

1:13:24>> No. So, sorry. So you're on the you're

1:13:26on the ding now for 7 hours and you're

1:13:28making way. But did you at any stage

1:13:30think or I could be you know is it

1:13:32choppy? Did you think you could die? Was

1:13:34there fear? What was the atmosphere like

1:13:36on there?

1:13:36>> I mean yeah obviously a few of them have

1:13:39noticed me going on the app and sort of

1:13:40seeing how far the um you know the board

1:13:43force boat was cuz most boats you can

1:13:45track on the marine traffic app. So, um,

1:13:49so I'm tracking that, seeing how far I'm

1:13:51thinking cuz it's just so boring, you

1:13:52know, you're trying to sort of keep

1:13:54yourself occupied. A few people sort of,

1:13:56you know, um, you know, a few people

1:13:58sort of chatting in their own language,

1:14:00but no one really I didn't no one spoke

1:14:02English enough, apart from a couple of

1:14:04words to be able to have a conversation.

1:14:05So, apart from a few hand signals and

1:14:07and smiles to each other, that that's

1:14:09it. You know, it's seven hours of

1:14:10boredom. And don't don't get me wrong,

1:14:12some of the sites are quite nice, you

1:14:14know, the the waves hitting against the

1:14:15boats and and just looking around

1:14:17looking looking at the perspective of

1:14:20but you start getting that cold, you're

1:14:22thinking, you know, hang on a second,

1:14:23like if I go in that water, I've got a

1:14:26few hours of being cold, but I'm already

1:14:28exhausted. Like, you know, but then you

1:14:30then all you have to do is look over to

1:14:32the big um navy ship and the um

1:14:36>> the big navy ship and and the search and

1:14:37rescue and think, well, you're going to

1:14:39be rescued anyway. So I think we were

1:14:42the only boat that set off that day. If

1:14:45um

1:14:47if if say eight boats set off in one

1:14:49day, which sometimes they do, you know,

1:14:51the like they had that day where I think

1:14:52that was seven boats set off in one day,

1:14:54you know, you can see how something

1:14:56would go wrong because the search and

1:14:57rescue probably overfaced in that

1:14:59moment. But yeah, um you know, we get to

1:15:03the point where you can see the halfway

1:15:05boy as well, which is quite a

1:15:06fascinating thing. There's a there's a

1:15:07boy that marks halfway. Um, so you sort

1:15:09of like you're seeing that and you know

1:15:11you know once you start getting closer

1:15:13to that you can see our border for sat

1:15:15waiting on the English side

1:15:17>> right

1:15:17>> waiting for you. So you know you cross

1:15:19over to that they start shouting they

1:15:21shout uh right turn the engine off turn

1:15:24the engine off. Obviously the boat

1:15:26driver is still driving the boat at this

1:15:27point and if he gets caught he's um

1:15:30>> b for smuggling.

1:15:30>> Well yeah he's part of the smuggling

1:15:32operation. So what happens is everyone

1:15:35sort of he knocks the engine off.

1:15:37Everyone huddles around him so so that

1:15:39no one can see. So they're all huddled

1:15:41around him. And I caught the start of

1:15:42this on the on the glasses. He drops to

1:15:44the floor, whips all his clothes off,

1:15:46puts a life jacket back on, and then

1:15:48sits up like just normal like that. So

1:15:50then from from another vessel, they

1:15:52can't see which one was driving the

1:15:53boat, which one had the disguise on. And

1:15:56um I'm sure they could work it out by

1:15:58process of elimination by taking

1:16:00pictures of, you know, all the faces,

1:16:03but they're just not that bothered, are

1:16:04you? It's an easy

1:16:06>> Yeah,

1:16:06>> exactly.

1:16:07>> You'd interrogate everyone on the boat,

1:16:08wouldn't that?

1:16:09>> Yeah. I mean I mean if they flew a drone

1:16:10down to it, there'd be one guy that's

1:16:12appeared that wasn't in the original

1:16:14picture. Now whether that's enough

1:16:15proofs for a prosecution, I don't know,

1:16:17but um there's way there's got to be

1:16:19ways and means around that for the

1:16:21authorities, but again, the authorities

1:16:23have no desire to stop this.

1:16:25>> Pantoime in it.

1:16:26>> Exactly. So then obviously it pulls up,

1:16:28they hold these signs up and they're

1:16:29like, "Right, this is you know who

1:16:31speaks English? Who speaks English?"

1:16:33Obviously, I didn't I didn't say me. So,

1:16:36um, who speaks English? They hold these

1:16:38signs up. The the the migrants follow

1:16:39the instructions that's on the sign on

1:16:41how to tie the boat on safely. The boat

1:16:44gets tied on, you get pulled up

1:16:45alongside the ship, which let me tell

1:16:46you, when when that border force vessel

1:16:48pulls up next to you on the dingy, it's

1:16:50like, wow. It's it's quite imposing

1:16:52really.

1:16:53>> And what were they like on the whole?

1:16:55>> I mean, the second I step foot onto the

1:16:56border force boat, the guy said to me,

1:16:58you're on the wrong boat. Sorry, he

1:17:00clocked up

1:17:00>> in straight away. You know, I've got

1:17:01I've got sunburn there from from all the

1:17:03times I've fallen asleep and being on on

1:17:05the boat for seven hours.

1:17:06>> Did you hold back as well to make sure

1:17:07you were one of the last people to get

1:17:09onto the border? They were all flapping

1:17:11to get off. They were like, "Oh, you

1:17:12know, there's a big panic to get off."

1:17:14I'm thinking, "We're tied to the border

1:17:15force boat. Nothing's going wrong here."

1:17:17You know, even if it does, we they're

1:17:19here. What's the problem? They're all

1:17:21like panicking to get off. Next thing

1:17:23you know, we're on the border force

1:17:24boat. They're all being seasick. They're

1:17:26asking for bags and it's just oh I mean

1:17:29the chaos was just unbelievable

1:17:31again. You know that then they're all

1:17:33they're like sort of running to the edge

1:17:35with the seasick bags and the six spray

1:17:37out. It's just it was just horrible.

1:17:39>> The border force treat the migrants like

1:17:42they're fleeing war or like they're

1:17:43criminals.

1:17:44>> The border force give them a bottle of

1:17:46water. They take they take your

1:17:48decathlon live check it off you. You put

1:17:50the border force one on. They tell you

1:17:51to there's like effectively like a bus

1:17:53stop at the front of the boat. They walk

1:17:55you to the front of the boat. Right. Sit

1:17:57down there and they just observe you.

1:17:59They don't really you don't really

1:18:00communicate with them in that moment. Um

1:18:02>> what's the process from there though?

1:18:04And and when they discovered that you

1:18:06were English and who you were

1:18:08>> because you you can't Surely by the time

1:18:10you're on there you feel a sense of

1:18:11relief. It's like I've done it.

1:18:13>> When I'm on there I'm just like wow that

1:18:17at least I'm safe now. At least I'm on

1:18:18the way home. But in my there in there

1:18:20I'm thinking we're here. We've done it.

1:18:22Yeah. Happy days. me I'm thinking how do

1:18:25I get past this next stage you know this

1:18:26is a another stage now for me

1:18:28>> ah well was you in your plan was you not

1:18:31prepared to get on that get onto the

1:18:33boat uh border force boat and say okay

1:18:36this is who I am this is what I've done

1:18:37or was you

1:18:38>> I wanted to get into a hotel I wanted to

1:18:40get into a hotel that's what I wanted to

1:18:42do

1:18:43>> you was going to go all the way

1:18:44>> yeah no I was never going to take just

1:18:46for the record and any authorities who

1:18:48might see this I was never going to I

1:18:50was never going to take any food or

1:18:52anything like that or not leave the

1:18:54money for the bed, not pay for the bed

1:18:56that had stayed in. I wasn't going to

1:18:57abuse taxpayer funds. We were going to

1:18:59pay for everything if we' have got to

1:19:00that stage. Now, obviously, we didn't.

1:19:03Um, and the reason why we didn't is

1:19:05because, to be fair to the border force,

1:19:08the pe the operatives there are running

1:19:09a tight ship. They are bang on. You

1:19:12know, you step off that boat, there's

1:19:14cameras flashing in your face. There's

1:19:16there's interforce which are like the

1:19:18the the ex the you know, the the extra

1:19:20border force without the police powers

1:19:22of the border force. So there's

1:19:23interforce, border force, and police

1:19:26lined up and they are staring at you.

1:19:28Cameras are flashing, you know, getting

1:19:30they're getting the their evidence that

1:19:32for whatever reason, you know, just in

1:19:34case. And you you walked into a line and

1:19:39um you you basically said they they

1:19:42check your like your large size nines,

1:19:45whatever, flip flops and prison clothes

1:19:47basically. And uh it's all done like

1:19:49that really quick. You don't even have

1:19:51know what's going on to be honest. Next

1:19:52thing they pass in your clothes, right?

1:19:54Go to that cubicle, get changed. Just

1:19:56before I've gone to the cubicle, the

1:19:58woman went, "Yeah, mate. Where are you

1:19:59from?" [laughter]

1:20:01I'm sort of like, "Oh [ __ ] what do I

1:20:03do? I'm being clocked here now. I'm

1:20:05being clocked. I'm like I'm finding it

1:20:07quite funny though. Do you know what I

1:20:08mean?" Because it's just a bizarre

1:20:10situation. So I'm like, you know, I'm

1:20:12like me tired, me sleepy, you know, or

1:20:15in a dafted accent. And um and then I

1:20:18thought, "This is not working." She

1:20:19went, "Where where were you born, mate?"

1:20:21So, I just start shrugging my shoulders

1:20:22at this point, thinking, "Oh, well, what

1:20:24can they do then?" So, I'm shrugging my

1:20:25shoulders. She turns around to her mate

1:20:27and says, "This, we've just rescued them

1:20:30and this is how they treat us. It really

1:20:32pisses me off this, you know, they won't

1:20:34even answer our questions." Anyway, a

1:20:36mate turns around to her and goes,

1:20:37"Listen, whatever her name was, I'm

1:20:39telling you, he's British. He's British.

1:20:42He He's not foreign. He's British." So,

1:20:44I know they're well on to me at this

1:20:45point. So, I'm getting changed in this

1:20:47cubicle. I'm just absolutely hysterics.

1:20:50I'm laughing. I'm laughing and I'm just

1:20:52trying to compose myself, get straight

1:20:54face, come back out. I'm like, "Right,

1:20:58they right you over there straight away.

1:20:59You over there." And obviously I've just

1:21:02listened to to what they're saying. I've

1:21:03reacted to what they're saying. So that

1:21:05they're they're analyzing all this. They

1:21:07know they've just told me something in

1:21:08in English and I've done it. So it's so

1:21:11much harder to do than what than what I

1:21:14originally thought. And then they they

1:21:15show me a chart, point to your flag,

1:21:17obviously British flag, because I can't

1:21:19lie in that situation because then then

1:21:21I am breaking the law. So I've just had

1:21:23to go British flag, age 35.

1:21:27And um yeah, sure enough. Um you know,

1:21:31she says, "What the hell's going on,

1:21:32mate? What the hell's going on? You said

1:21:34you you know, you told me you were born

1:21:36in Manchester. You've just pointed the

1:21:38British flag. You're putting a funny

1:21:39accent on. What's going on?" I said,

1:21:41"Well, I've just invaded Great Britain,

1:21:43haven't I?" [laughter]

1:21:46>> Did they see the funny side of that?

1:21:48>> She said, "Right, go and sit over in the

1:21:50corner. I'll deal with you in a minute."

1:21:51Anyway, she's she's obviously thinking

1:21:53about this. She's she's come over. She's

1:21:55um she was sound as anything, the woman.

1:21:57She really was. She said, "Listen," she

1:21:59said, "Count terror police are on the

1:22:00way down." I'm thinking, "This is

1:22:02getting a bit serious now. Counter

1:22:03terror police on the way down. I'm

1:22:05thinking about all the other people or,

1:22:06you know, any other people who've done

1:22:08stuff like this who've ended up, you

1:22:10know, getting the doors taken off. My

1:22:12touch would me doors not being taken off

1:22:13yet. Um, and not because people have

1:22:17done things wrong, but because they

1:22:18don't like people to speak the truth.

1:22:20So, I'm thinking, well, I best just come

1:22:22clean here, treat them with respect and

1:22:24all the rest of it. I said, listen, I

1:22:25said, I'm a journalist. I'm trying to

1:22:27save my country. I'm trying to help save

1:22:28me country, trying to find the truth.

1:22:31and you know and and I thought this was

1:22:32a pretty important sort of piece to the

1:22:35jigsaw and she just turned around she

1:22:36said bloody hell she said you've made me

1:22:38day she said you made me day she said

1:22:40this is this is mental she said I can't

1:22:42believe you've done this I can't believe

1:22:44you've gone to this length said well you

1:22:45know this is what people have got to do

1:22:46because the government's not doing

1:22:48anything she's saying oh I've got to be

1:22:49impartial and she did really well to be

1:22:52fair to to make herself you know well to

1:22:55to be impartial but one thing I will say

1:22:58is nobody no human on earth really can

1:23:00high frustration and I could pick up on

1:23:02their frustration of having to deal with

1:23:03this load of nonsense, you know, if not

1:23:06every day, at least every other day.

1:23:08>> Do you think border force are

1:23:09compromised?

1:23:10>> I think border force are doing the best

1:23:12they can, but I think they're I think

1:23:14they're handing the tide behind the

1:23:16backs

1:23:17>> um by by the government. So, because of

1:23:20political ideology, if you said to

1:23:22border force, right, I'm not bothered

1:23:24about political party or or anything.

1:23:27All your job is is to keep these b to

1:23:30keep these borders safe and don't let

1:23:31anybody in who shouldn't be. I believe

1:23:33in those people in do that would do

1:23:35that. I believe they would do that. I

1:23:37believe we would be in safe hands. You

1:23:38know, they wanted to do the jobs. They

1:23:40really you they were doing them to the

1:23:42maximum of of their ability. Um and and

1:23:45and I have confidence in them and and

1:23:47the the system that they ran was

1:23:49clinical. Um the the the issue is that

1:23:52what they are told to do with the

1:23:54migrants as opposed to put them on a

1:23:56boat and send them back. They're told to

1:23:58put them in a in a bus and send them to

1:24:00a hotel by the government. So the the

1:24:02you know the um the book stops with the

1:24:05government and uh it's due to political

1:24:07ideology and government policy on why

1:24:09they can't do their their job properly.

1:24:11But yeah, I mean counterterror copper

1:24:14comes over. He's sort of like you know

1:24:16sort of get sees my face. He recognizes

1:24:19me from the first documentary. We have a

1:24:21right laugh at him. He's, "Oh, buddy,

1:24:22I've seen the documentary." Shakes me

1:24:24hand. So, had a good had a good time

1:24:26with the with the He got me loads of

1:24:27snacks, hot drinks, and stuff cuz it

1:24:29took took me a while to thor out.

1:24:30>> I bet they were desperate for your

1:24:32intelligence, weren't they?

1:24:33>> Well, I've got a meeting actually next

1:24:34week with Home Office intelligence. So,

1:24:37on one hand, the Home Office have

1:24:38labeled me a reckless individual. Quite