EP 12 | Legacy, Suffering & Joy, Church Humour, Spiritual Counsels | Andrzéj Maria Cardinal Deskur

0:16Welcome dear friends to another episode

0:18of the Totous Stools podcast. Today's

0:21guest Edward Desker is a repolonized

0:24Swiss American. He graduated with a

0:26bachelor of music from the Eastman

0:28School of Music, University of

0:30Rochester.

0:32He was a founding member of the

0:33Singapore Symphony Orchestra in 1979 and

0:37has worked at the Zurich Opera House for

0:3932 years and is currently retired.

0:43He is also the nephew of the late Anj

0:46Cardinal Mariacer

0:49who has played an instrumental role in

0:51his life growing up. Without further

0:53ado, I'd like to welcome today's guest.

0:55Welcome, Edward.

0:56>> It's great to be here. Thank you for the

0:57honor of the invitation.

0:59>> Yeah. Um, so Edward, I'm I'm happy to to

1:03have you here because we have heard so

1:05much uh from Yan, your cousin about um

1:09the late Cardinal Desker and even more

1:12so how he is such a close confidant of

1:16um St. John Paul II who is a patronage

1:19of the apostlate. So I'm very happy to

1:22to be having you here to hear the

1:24insights that probably the the general

1:26public would not know. You probably have

1:28special insights into the friendship

1:30into the life of the late cardinal.

1:33Yeah. So maybe first off um yeah you can

1:36maybe you can share with us about your

1:38family tradition being a desker. Yeah. I

1:41was hearing on the way you know when we

1:43were coming for this podcast that you

1:45say that the Desker family is a small

1:46but close-knit family.

1:49>> That's true. Uh, of course we're uh

1:52primarily a Polish family, but my

1:54parents left Poland during the war. My

1:57father is a a prisoner of war. My mother

2:00is a 12-year-old refugee. They

2:02eventually went to the United States,

2:03which is where they met, and I was born

2:04and raised there. But most of the family

2:07is has been in Poland the whole time.

2:10We've been in Poland since 8, no, 1732.

2:14Many of our ancestors had very important

2:17roles in the history of Poland,

2:18particularly in the army fighting for

2:21the independence of Poland. But of

2:23course, the most illustrious is the

2:25cardinal.

2:26>> Yeah. And so how did you first encounter

2:30the cardinal since you were actually

2:32born and raised in America and he was

2:34probably in Poland or maybe at the time

2:36he was already in Rome? Oh, he was in

2:38Rome since 1952.

2:40>> And I got a fullbrite scholarship to

2:43study in Belgium in the 80s. That's when

2:45I also went to Poland for the very first

2:47time. And when I discovered the

2:50wonderfulness of the Polish culture and

2:51the traditions and I decided to

2:53repolonize myself. I learned his

2:55language. Eventually I married a Polish

2:57woman. I speak Polish with my wife,

2:59>> English with my children. But uh I

3:04when I went to the when I went to Poland

3:07in 1981 or no I'm sorry 82 no let's

3:11start again. When I went to Poland in

3:121982 during the very difficult time of

3:15the uh martial law

3:18>> I ended up meeting the largest groups of

3:20the family in Polstein and Kraov and

3:23Krakow in English. And when the Krakow

3:26cousins, who I got very close to, when

3:29they heard that I was going to live live

3:31and work in Zurich, they said, "Oh my

3:34goodness, that's great because um our

3:36uncle the cardinal spends his summers

3:39very close to Zurich and you should go

3:41and meet him." And I thought I would go

3:43once just to meet him. And I did. And I

3:46thought that would be it. But no, we

3:47became very good friends. And he

3:49ultimately became my spiritual father. I

3:51would even say a second father to me

3:53because I met him very soon after my own

3:55father died. So he took that took over

3:58that fatherly role in my life.

4:00>> Okay. And what were some of the the

4:03fondest memories you have of the late

4:06cardinal?

4:07>> Oh, too many to tell you all of them.

4:10But I will say of course for me my

4:13marriage in St. Peter's Basilica which

4:17he uh officiated was of course one of

4:19the greatest moments. Wow.

4:21>> Uh he also confirmed me

4:24uh uh but there was many many

4:26discussions

4:27um very interesting insights not only

4:29about theology but about life about

4:32politics about art

4:35and u also about humor. He had a

4:39wonderful sense of humor and

4:43many of my fondest memories of him are

4:45actually his jokes. He would collect

4:48jokes and he had many many many many

4:51guests and he was the court jester of

4:53the Vatican to a certain degree

4:55collecting the jokes and he would

4:58entertain the Holy Father at the Sunday

5:00lunches who to which he was uh invited.

5:03>> I see.

5:04>> But as far as most memorable moment, I'd

5:09say well probably the first moment I met

5:11him. I thought it was I was expecting

5:14just a courtesy visit, very short.

5:17>> And of course, I used his official title

5:19at the time. He was an archbishop, so I

5:20called him his excellenc. And he's, "Oh,

5:22please, please, please, please,

5:24>> we're family.

5:26Call me an

5:28unusual actually because even in Poland,

5:30you normally

5:32um even with your uncles, you you you

5:34you don't always call them by their

5:36first name. You usually say uncle." Mhm.

5:39>> But he uh accepted me as a member of the

5:44family and he wanted to be extremely

5:47uh available to me as a priest and

5:50that's his vocation. And in this context

5:52I can remember something that I thought

5:54was very beautiful and funny at the same

5:55time. Um because I was in my 20s at the

5:59time and going through all sorts of

6:01interesting uh parts of my life. and he

6:06once said to me, "If you ever have a

6:10problem, you want to call me, call me,

6:12even if it's 3:00 in the morning." And I

6:15said, "Oh, come on. I'm not I'm never

6:17going to wake you up at 3:00 in the

6:19morning." And he, "No, please do that.

6:21Please do that because if you do, you'll

6:23give me a double pleasure. Number one,

6:27I'll be able to maybe help you. And

6:30number two, I'll have the pleasure of

6:32falling asleep a second time.

6:36And he he had the gift of knowing how to

6:40introduce a little element of humor in

6:42if if possible. Of course, he was a very

6:44serious priest. He was a moral

6:45theologian.

6:46>> Yeah.

6:47>> And he corrected a lot of my

6:49misunderstandings about the Catholic

6:50faith for which I'm extremely grateful.

6:54But if possible, he always added a

6:57little bit of humor and uh to the

7:01seriousness and balanced everything out.

7:03It was wonderful.

7:04>> Wow.

7:05>> Yeah. You know, from the way that you

7:07described, I can see that, you know, his

7:09personality is something that you've

7:11been drawn to.

7:14>> Absolutely. He was also a fascinating

7:15person because he had he was paralyzed

7:19uh just before the election of John Paul

7:21II. Well, before I met him,

7:24>> he was confined to a wheelchair, could

7:26hardly walk at the time. And after after

7:28a few years, he couldn't walk at all. He

7:30was confined completely to the

7:32wheelchair. And he was clearly

7:34suffering. But he was one of the most

7:37optimistic and um positive people I've

7:41ever known because he has this very

7:42special understanding of how suffering

7:45is an integral part of life and you have

7:47to accept it and dedicate it to

7:50somebody.

7:52That's u I'd say a central part of his

7:55his um if ministry if you will showing

7:59people that

8:01suffering isn't just a condemnation of

8:04fate it's something that can be turned

8:09in a positive way. So for example, he

8:13shocked me when he said, you know,

8:15suffering is a privilege.

8:18>> And I didn't want to accept that at all.

8:20And he said, the more I suffer, the

8:23closer I am to Christ because Christ

8:26suffered for us un uh unimaginably.

8:31And uh he also had this very beautiful

8:34and very constructive understanding of

8:36suffering that it's like a very precious

8:40coin with which you can attain graces

8:43for other people if you dedicate your

8:45suffering to somebody else. So he

8:49dedicated his suffering primarily to the

8:52Holy Father and to anybody he's praying

8:55for. And that raises suffering to a

8:59completely different level. And he saw

9:02meaning in it. And he was always very

9:04very in a very good mood. I've never

9:07seen him depressed. I've never seen him

9:09uh sad. He was always very very

9:13positive, very very optimistic, very

9:15very helpful despite his infirmity.

9:19>> Yeah.

9:19>> Very inspiring.

9:20>> So that must have stemmed from his deep

9:22prayer life, you would say.

9:24>> Absolutely.

9:25>> Yeah. And yeah, you know, Pope John Paul

9:28II um wrote the apostolic letter

9:31Salvichi dollar

9:34>> and you know, whatever you just said

9:35was, you know, it's basically the

9:38cardinal's life is a testament of what

9:39John Paul II was was saying in the

9:42letter.

9:43>> I think to Christian meaning, you know,

9:45>> that's true. I think to a certain degree

9:47he helped uh the pope write that he

9:51helped because the pope wrote in a

9:54letter to the cardinal's mother who was

9:57still alive after he was elected pope

9:59>> thanking him and

10:02mentioning that uh it's for him a great

10:06mystery why people very close to him

10:10either died or had serious accidents at

10:14every stage of his development as a

10:16priest when he was I I forget exactly

10:19who who died. I think his mother died

10:22when he close to when he was ordained a

10:25priest when he ordained uh was made a

10:28bishop.

10:30I think his father died and then when he

10:32became a cardinal, a good friend of his

10:35who was a bishop in um Leviv, we called

10:38it Lev

10:40>> had a serious accident and just a few

10:43days or a day before he was elected

10:45pope, his close friend Maria Desur had a

10:50stroke and he was unconscious during the

10:54election. He at the time he was a a

10:56bishop so he wasn't in the conclave but

10:58he was in the hospital while the pope

11:00when the pope was being elected.

11:02>> Yeah.

11:03>> And u he came out of his coma uh a while

11:08later and went to Switzerland to be

11:10cured for a while but then came back to

11:12the Vatican and was in full

11:16uh possession of his intellectual and

11:19spiritual capabilities but physically he

11:21was in very bad shape. Yeah. So and you

11:26know it's also beautiful because um Pope

11:28John Paul II you know actually termed

11:30you know this as the apostlate of

11:32suffering that it becomes a personal

11:34apostlate for everyone who suffers that

11:37you know in the Christian you know in

11:39our Christian faith we know that there

11:41is the transcendence that of suffering

11:44that you know there's a greater meaning

11:46to it and that when it's united with the

11:48sufferings of our lord himself it bears

11:51fruit and

11:53>> exactly

11:53>> yeah and you You know, it's it's so

11:55beautiful because um when you mentioned

11:57that the late cardinal especially

11:59offered his suffering for for Pope John

12:02Paul II,

12:04>> I I much believe because he knows the

12:06weight of the papal office. Yeah. And

12:09what was moving was the fact that Pope

12:11John Paul II after being elected pope

12:14broke with tradition actually the first

12:17thing he did was to visit Cardinal Deska

12:20in the hospital. Yeah. So I I read that

12:23and you know and it also goes to show

12:25that that that close friendship because

12:27that was I think the first time

12:29apparently that people say that oh

12:31people knew who Cardinal Desker was

12:34because back then people didn't know

12:37that close friendship between Pope John

12:39Paul II and Cardinal Desker.

12:43>> That's true. Although at the time of the

12:45election of John Paul II, he was a

12:47bishop.

12:48>> Yeah. Then he was raised a few years

12:50later to this status of a archbishop and

12:55I believe it was 1984

12:57or 85 that he was uh um a cardinal.

13:01Yeah.

13:02>> By John Paul the

13:03>> call him the cardinal but at the time he

13:04was a bishop.

13:05>> Yeah. Correct. So what we say would you

13:09have some special insights into their

13:11friendship between John Paul II and the

13:14cardinal?

13:16Well, uh, he didn't talk about that

13:18friendship too much, but I did I knew

13:20that they did study together in the

13:22university and the seminarian in Poland.

13:26They he

13:29both of them together with Cardinal

13:31Maharski were in the committee of the

13:34student association and there was a

13:37funny moment when they finally all three

13:39of them met together after the election

13:43and after the uh reconvolescence of my

13:46uncle they met the three of them met

13:49together and said ah now we have a

13:51quorum for the student association we

13:53can open a meeting of the student

13:55association because I think they were

13:57four members and you needed at least uh

14:00three to have a quorum for that

14:02committee. So they they had a little

14:04little joke about that sort of thing.

14:06>> Yeah. And you you mentioned that um

14:09because the cardinal was already working

14:11in Rome while Pope John Paul the second

14:14at the time was the Archbishop of Kraov

14:16right before he was elected.

14:18>> That's true. He was one of the very

14:20first nonItalians who were invent

14:23invited to be in the Kura. So he started

14:25in 1952.

14:27So he had a lot of experience. He knew

14:30who was who, who was uh very saintly,

14:33who was maybe corrupt, who should you

14:36should avoid, who um you should come

14:39close to. And in a way, he was a bit

14:41like the sherpa of Cardinal Viva

14:45uh guiding him through the labyrinth of

14:48internal politics in the Vatican. It's a

14:51very complicated world. He was telling

14:52me many many times

14:54>> that it's a very um old

14:58labyrinth

15:00uh with lots of different groupings that

15:04if you will fight with each other and uh

15:08it's not easy to navigate and he even

15:11mentioned that some people were actively

15:13working against the church that were in

15:15the hierarchy but it was they were too

15:17powerful to get out of the hierarchy.

15:21They they were but they were actively

15:23working against the church. They in

15:26other words that the coua was

15:27infiltrated by people from the KGB from

15:30various mafias.

15:32And he said at one point uh point blank

15:35he said if he said everything he knew or

15:38heard and saw a third of the core would

15:42have to resign the next day. But he

15:44underscored that that was a minority.

15:47uh the majority are very hardworking,

15:50very saintly people and that's why the

15:52church survives. But it's a very

15:56complicated world and somebody from

15:58outside needs an experienced

16:01insider to guide them through through

16:04the labyrinth of the politics and that

16:07was one of the things he did for him.

16:09>> Yeah. So he you could say he paved the

16:11way for Pope John Paul II when he became

16:15pope.

16:16>> True. And also it's it's an open secret

16:18that um he was famous in the Vatican for

16:22having the best cook and the best wine

16:24seller and for the honest priests.

16:28Those are the delights that they have

16:30every right to enjoy.

16:32>> So he got a reputation for having

16:33excellent food at his home and nobody

16:36would refuse his invitations. And before

16:38the conclave, he would invite the most

16:41important uh cardinals to get to know

16:45Cardinal Voya closer with a whole series

16:48of dinner parties with absolutely

16:51excellent food, very good wines. And

16:54that was a bit of his secret. And I can

16:58recommend that to people who are also

17:00outside of the Kore. It's a very, very

17:02wonderful tradition to offer wonderful

17:05food, wonderful wine. brings people

17:07together

17:09and uh that's also one of his

17:13one way that he helped John Paul II get

17:17well known among the cardinals because

17:19there's probably about 130 cardinals at

17:22the time.

17:23>> They didn't all really know each other

17:25that well. people did know Cardinal

17:27Voya, but of course he wasn't Italian.

17:30>> Yeah.

17:30>> And uh it it was a great opportunity

17:34over a very good dinner to get to know

17:37him, his ideas, what he his vision for

17:39the church and he obviously convinced

17:41enough cardinals to vote for him.

17:43>> Yeah. So you know you were sharing about

17:46all these um

17:48internal politics within the Vatican and

17:50how complex it is. Has the cardinal ever

17:54um shared about you know like whether he

17:57wanted to leave the job?

17:59>> Oh no no no. But he would joke about it

18:01a little bit.

18:02>> The one of the jokes is um the question

18:05is how many people are working in the

18:08kura

18:09>> and the answer is about half

18:13because you have to understand it is

18:14Italy. Most of the people in the kura

18:16are Italians and there's a certain work

18:19ethic that's known in Italy. they they

18:22work well, but they're not always

18:24working. They take a lot of breaks and

18:26they like their vacations and things

18:27like that. So,

18:29>> um so he had a a good sense of humor

18:31about that sort of thing.

18:32>> Yeah.

18:32>> But I I would say he never um spoke in

18:35great detail about these things. He just

18:38spoke in principle because I think I was

18:40a young man and active Catholic. He

18:43thought maybe I had a vocation and I

18:46could feel that he was sort of o opening

18:48doors for me and getting me

18:51introduced to various bishops and

18:53cardinals and I had very interesting

18:55discussions and ultimately I think I

18:58convinced him that being a classical

19:01musician is a vocation of its own that

19:03also has its dignity

19:05>> and I think he accepted that.

19:07>> Yeah. And uh but I think at the same

19:09time he always had this in the back of

19:13his mind ah maybe maybe there's a

19:15vocation here and so he was always doing

19:17everything he possibly could to support

19:19that.

19:20>> Okay.

19:22>> And um you know over the course of of

19:25these years you know you've visited him

19:27quite often not just in Rome but also in

19:30Switzerland right I understand that

19:32during the summer break he would go to a

19:34convent in Switzerland. Yes. to spend

19:36time there and you you paid him many

19:39visits.

19:39>> Absolutely. It was very close to Zurich

19:41where I was living. He was there for

19:42about two months.

19:43>> Yeah.

19:44>> And it was perfect for me because he was

19:46there. I was there and uh and

19:50it was wonderful because we we always

19:52had interesting things to talk about not

19:55only theology but history, Polish

19:57history, art. He one thing on art he

20:00gave me there's two stories about art

20:02that I like very much. Mhm.

20:04>> Uh number one, he has this idea and I

20:08and I kind of believe it that if you

20:09look at the pitha, you know,

20:11Michelangelo's sculpture, the marble

20:14sculpture, he said what's for him, what

20:16is so timeless about it is that if you

20:19look at the face of the Virgin Mary,

20:23she could conceivably be of any race.

20:26She could be oriental, she could be

20:28African, she could be European. She has

20:30a universal face because she's the

20:32mother of us all.

20:34>> And that for him was a absolute master

20:38uh master masterful way of presenting

20:40the Virgin Mary. Okay? It's white

20:42marble. So it's it's whiter than anybody

20:44could ever possibly be. But if you look

20:47at the eyes, they're not clearly

20:49European. They're not clearly Asian.

20:51They're not clearly African. She could

20:54be anybody. I thought that was really

20:56beautiful. That was one of those moments

20:59of of high culture and art that and then

21:02another story that I like very much. He

21:04had a tabernacle in his chapel because

21:07in his apartment there was a very

21:08beautiful chapel and on the tabernacle

21:13there was a incredibly beautiful

21:15sculpture

21:17of or embossed

21:20in silver image of a pelican with three

21:24uh children and the pelican giving his

21:26body. You know that's the um symbol of

21:28the Eucharist because in the times of

21:31drought pelican will give his own the

21:33Catholic mother will give her own blood

21:35>> sacrificial nature.

21:36>> Yeah.

21:37>> It's so beautiful. I just absolutely

21:39loved it. I was just mesmerized by it.

21:41And I and I asked him once, do you know

21:43who did that? Who was the artist who

21:45made that? And he said, no, I don't and

21:49I don't want to know. And he he really

21:51made a point. I don't want to know. And

21:54I was surprised. Of course, I asked him,

21:56"Why not? You're very interested. They

21:59need to know who it is. Maybe see some

22:01other works of his." And he said, "Well,

22:04you know, the reason I don't want to

22:05know is because this chapel was taken

22:09out of a side chapel of St. Peter's

22:11Basilica and it was the part of St.

22:14Peter's Basilica where Michelangelo was

22:16working. And Michallangelo is known to

22:19be an artist in many, many, many fields.

22:23And if it turned out that it was

22:27Michelangelo who made this uh pelican,

22:31>> then they would take it away from me

22:33immediately. So he he loved it as well

22:36and he didn't want anybody to take it

22:37away from him and he was maybe afraid

22:39that it was something from Michelangelo.

22:42But it was so stunningly beautiful and I

22:43I still to this day have a strong memory

22:45of it. Super beautiful.

22:48>> Yeah. And um you know I I believe that

22:51he he must have been also a great Marian

22:53devote.

22:54>> Oh yeah.

22:56>> When you knock on the door to to enter

22:59his office

23:01he doesn't say come in. He says a Maria.

23:05>> That's how he invites you into his home.

23:08Very Marian. Very Marian. And he taught

23:11me the the whole my understanding of the

23:14the Maran devotion because I was brought

23:17up in America where the American the the

23:21Protestants um very strongly criticize

23:25Catholics for for having a Marian

23:27devotion. And I told him about that to

23:29me it's a little bit too

23:32>> blasphemous in a way. It's not she's not

23:34a goddess and many people treat her as

23:36if she is a goddess and I I have a

23:38problem with that. and he kind of smiled

23:40and he said, "Oh, I can see you're under

23:41the influence of the American

23:42Protestants." But let me tell you the

23:45the the true nature of of this devotion

23:49and it was very very beautifully

23:52presented because he basically said of

23:55in a nutshell

23:57the devotion to Maria the tools

24:00>> is the ultimate imitation of Christ. He

24:05said that Christ could have

24:08or God could have presented himself to

24:10the world in the context of time and

24:13space in any way he wanted to. He could

24:15have written

24:17um in the clouds. He could have written

24:20words that people uh would read in the

24:22clouds and be very impressed with it. He

24:24even joked, "If God wanted to, nothing

24:28could stop him from being from

24:30manifesting himself as a speaking carrot

24:33that everybody would be amazed at when

24:36the carrot is speaking wonderful words.

24:38But he chose to incarnate himself as a

24:41human being through the Virgin Mary. And

24:46what he did ultimately what Christ did

24:49was

24:51he was entrusting himself completely to

24:55the care of the Virgin Mary.

24:58And if our ideal as Christians is to

25:02imitate Christ,

25:04who are we not to do that as well? And I

25:08found that a very beautiful way. And

25:10ever since I've been a very Marian

25:12person and the idea is that for me it's

25:18not only to but also I love the Angelus

25:21prayer that

25:24may it be done unto me according to your

25:26word

25:28and uh not according to your will but

25:31according to your word which is the

25:32which is Christ the incarnation of God

25:35which of course includes the will of God

25:38but I I Love that wording because it's

25:41so rich and it also inspires me to

25:47reverse what I was taught to do as a as

25:51a child. You know, children are taught

25:53to pray asking for graces, asking for

25:57gifts. Of course, there's nothing wrong

25:58with that. But I think the higher level,

26:02higher order Catholicism is exactly the

26:05reverse.

26:07Not so much do we ask for things but we

26:10ask God what do you want from me

26:12>> and we say to God whatever you want is

26:15what I want even if that means suffering

26:17then I accept that if you want to give

26:20me graces that are delightful of course

26:24happy to accept that too but anything

26:26you want to give me any trials any

26:29crosses any suffering I'm going to

26:31gladly accept it because it's from you

26:34and if you look at the life of the

26:36Virgin Mary. I mean, she didn't have an

26:38easy life.

26:39>> I mean, right after the birth, they had

26:41to run away because her son uh was in

26:44danger of being murdered.

26:45>> Yeah.

26:47>> And at the end of his life, there he was

26:50on her lap,

26:52her dead son. I mean, she did not have

26:54an easy life, but she was totally

26:59devoted to doing God's will. And I don't

27:03believe she was asking God so much as

27:06offering God to serve that she would

27:10serve him in whatever way he chose for

27:14her to do. And I think that's the secret

27:16of the higher order Christianity where

27:19we're asking less for individual graces

27:24be it you know passing a test, getting a

27:27job or you know whatever but the other

27:30way around. May it be your will that's

27:32done not mine and when we

27:36uh turn the tables on prayer in that way

27:40then magic happens graces happen and I

27:43found that in my life as well I I got

27:46married very very late I thought at some

27:49point I would never get married

27:51>> and I just it's it's up to you like put

27:54it in your hands and uh and then there

27:58it is then I found the women uh that I

28:01married but I married at 44 very late

28:06and uh I think that's for me the one of

28:09the things I learned from the cardinal

28:10is this idea of um of course we can

28:14always ask for graces specific graces

28:16but always at the end of that request it

28:19should be but may it be your will not

28:23mine you're not my butler

28:26waiting for me to give you my wishes

28:30uh it's the other way around. We're his

28:33servants. And um when we orient our

28:38faith in that way, then I think it's a

28:40more adult faith, a more developed

28:42faith. And in my personal experience,

28:45that's that's when the graces really

28:47started coming. I see. Yeah. And also

28:50that's the reason why we you know we

28:52adopted to um of course firstly it's

28:56because we inspired by the pontificate

28:58of P John Paul II but because his motto

29:02is so profound right um you know as

29:04Christians we all strive to want to love

29:07God right and that should be the goal of

29:09every Christian but

29:10>> there's no person who have who has loved

29:13God better than the blessed virgin Mary

29:16and when we imitate our ladies uh in her

29:19virtue shoes in in her submitting of her

29:22whole entire will to God, then we we too

29:25will will know how to love God better.

29:28>> Absolutely. Close.

29:28>> And that's why that marin dimension is

29:30so important for every Christian. You

29:32know, I never believe that it is an

29:34option for a Christian to for a Catholic

29:37Christian to to have mar devotion. It

29:39should be very essential in a

29:41Christian's life.

29:42>> True. It is very and that's why I I I

29:46always have when I see the Protestants,

29:47I always respect their merits and their

29:52dedication to the faith, but I always

29:53have the feeling that there's something

29:54incomplete.

29:55>> Yeah.

29:56>> About how they understand because they

29:57don't understand the the power and the

30:01the the beauty of this Maran element

30:05that we in the Catholic faith have. And

30:08it's not easy for people to understand

30:09because it's a lot of that is associated

30:13with Mary is very difficult to for

30:16modern people to understand the whole

30:17idea of the immaculate conception.

30:20>> Mhm.

30:21>> And the virgin birth. It's very

30:23difficult for people uh to accept that.

30:25>> Yeah.

30:26>> And uh so they very often just sort of

30:30put it aside and say oh well you know

30:32you know the other things are nice but

30:33this well it's so complicated. Let's

30:35just leave it. But if you really take a

30:37deep dive into it, it's it's profound.

30:41And if you look at all of the great

30:44Catholics, I mean, all of the great

30:46popes and many of the great saints, they

30:48all had a very strong Maran devotion.

30:52>> Yes. Yeah. I I can think of, you know,

30:55the the great Polish saints like St.

30:57Maximian Kobe whose feast day we just

30:59celebrated, right? And he founded Yeah.

31:02You know, he founded the militia in

31:03Makulata. And and speaking of that, you

31:05know, I just recalled Jan brought us to

31:08that hall in Kraov

31:11uh where s Maximan Kov held his regular

31:14meetings

31:15>> with the late members of the militia

31:18Imakulata. It was just amazing for us to

31:21to to be present there where where Maxim

31:25Kov once Yeah. was once present in the

31:28very hall.

31:29>> Yeah. And and you can see um how the

31:32fruit has passed through time.

31:35>> True.

31:35>> Yeah.

31:36>> And if you go to Avitz, you can also uh

31:38visit the cell in which he was starved.

31:43>> Yes.

31:43>> And where they they ultimately murdered

31:46him.

31:46>> Yeah. Yeah. I've been to and yeah, I I I

31:50always felt, you know, we even though we

31:51we're not Polish, right, we've always

31:54seen Poland as a very very special

31:56place. um a country that's that is still

31:59very Catholic. Um Yeah. Because and has

32:02produced so many saints. Yeah. And and

32:05you know Poland has has been ravaged by

32:07war has been and after that communism

32:10followed.

32:11>> Yeah. And but yet in the midst of all

32:13that suffering there's something very

32:15special the fact that Polish people has

32:18suffered a lot

32:20>> in the history of time. Right.

32:21>> It's true. And there's a very

32:23interesting uh author

32:26who uh in the 19th century prophesized

32:30or

32:32presented Poland the idea that Poland is

32:34the Christ among nations.

32:37>> It has to suffer, die, and resurrect for

32:41the benefit of mankind. And you can

32:44imagine how many Polish people were

32:47excited about this after World War I

32:50when Poland finally got its independence

32:53again. the he was very very poetic uh

32:56prophetic

32:58>> the suffering dying because Poland

33:01didn't exist as a sovereign state for

33:03123 years

33:05>> but then resurrecting again that's

33:07that's quite something and I think not

33:10everybody in Poland is aware of this po

33:12the this poet but

33:15it I think people um uh there is

33:19something to it the there's a something

33:22about the Polish spirit you can you can

33:25kill us, you can destroy the country,

33:28but there's still something there. And

33:30part of that is that the Polish culture

33:33existed and survived over those two or

33:37123 years because it's not exclusively

33:42connected to the land. You can take away

33:45even the whole country for that time.

33:48There was no Poland. It was Prussia,

33:50Russia and Austria. But still the Polish

33:53nation existed. The pol Polishness

33:56existed over roughly five generations.

33:58That's that's pretty impressive. That's

34:00one of those things that impresses me

34:01about Poland and inspired me to be part

34:04of that whole uh community

34:08and I'm very happy to live there and be

34:10Polish in my own special Polish way.

34:12Very unique. Not not standard, not

34:16stereotypical Polish, but Polish. Pol

34:19nonetheless Polish.

34:21>> Yeah. And and so it was just so

34:23appropriate for the apostulate, right,

34:26as its first place of visit to to be in

34:29Poland.

34:30>> Yeah. And of course, we we know we've,

34:32you know, we're so edified by the

34:35experiences that we made, the

34:36friendships, you know, with the

34:38hospitality of the Polish people in, you

34:40know, your cousin Yan and Father Marak,

34:43you know, you know, you know, it feels

34:45like, you know, like a piece of us has

34:48remained.

34:49>> True.

34:50>> In Poland. Well, I think many c cultures

34:52and particularly Poland strongly

34:55cultivates this very very ancient idea

34:58that a guest is sent to you by God.

35:02>> Uh I noticed that in in Yemen the Arabs

35:05have that very strong in Israel as well

35:09and Greece, Spain, there's a special

35:12something about the hospitality. And in

35:14Poland we have an expression

35:20and it means

35:22when a guest is in the house, God is in

35:25the house.

35:26>> And most people interpret it as an

35:29opportunity to thank God for the graces

35:32that we've been given by spoiling our

35:36guests who are sent to us by God. And I

35:39I I like that very much. But I also

35:42noticed that same spirit in many many

35:44old cultures

35:47who cultivate the really strong

35:50uh culture of hospitality.

35:53>> Yeah. Yeah. So

35:56uh Edward, what are the you know uh

35:59spiritual councils of the the late

36:01cardinal that you know you have that

36:04till today you you you live by?

36:08Well, one things um I'm very very

36:11grateful for him to him for explaining

36:15how to properly not properly maybe how

36:18to

36:21make the sign of the cross in a way that

36:25guides you into a very deep prayerful

36:28state because very often people just you

36:31know make a sign and say okay I'm kind

36:33of praying.

36:34>> Yeah. and his understanding and now mine

36:38is that we should very consciously think

36:41about what we're saying when we say in

36:44the name of the father and the son and

36:46the holy spirit and he started by saying

36:49first of all some people think well who

36:52am I to do anything in god's name I mean

36:54god is all powerful and who am I but

36:58since we have a spark of divinity in us

37:00all of us we're not only entitled to our

37:04almost obliged to do what we do in his

37:08name. And then he explained his brief

37:13understanding of the very complicated

37:18um um trinity, the holy trinity.

37:22>> Mhm.

37:22>> And I I'd like to share this with you

37:24because I find it very very helpful to

37:26me.

37:28Basically what we we're dealing with is

37:31we've got God the Father whose full

37:33expression is cannot be manifest

37:37manifested within the limits of time and

37:40space. He's actually outside of time and

37:43space. He was

37:44>> before there was time and space. There

37:47was this divine power and force. And in

37:51order to manifest himself in the

37:55limitations of time and space, he

37:57created Jesus, his word, the that which

38:00>> he begotten the son.

38:02>> Exactly. That the

38:06this was his way of expressing himself

38:09within time and space. So that was the

38:13sun. and they have the same essence, but

38:16Jesus is the the the part of the Holy

38:20Trinity that manifests itself within

38:23time and space. And what I found is the

38:27the the most amazing part of this

38:28understanding is the that the Holy

38:30Spirit is the love of the father outside

38:35of time and space for the son and this

38:39love of the son for the father. It's the

38:43same love that goes in both directions

38:45that transcends that barrier between

38:48timelessness and timefulness.

38:51So you've got that love that unites the

38:53two. And it's also a love that animates.

38:58It animated Christ in the sense of

39:00giving the Holy Spirit gave him life

39:04within the the womb of the Virgin Mary.

39:06But the mystery and the beauty of all of

39:09this is that if we

39:13try to unite ourselves with this holy

39:15trinity in prayer, we too can be

39:18animated by the Holy Spirit. So when I

39:23make the sign of the cross, I do as much

39:25as I can to reflect on those on that

39:29relationship that unites and animates.

39:32And if I'm in a hurry or if I'm in the

39:34haze of the morning where I'm not really

39:36concentrating very strongly, I have a

39:41abbreviated form of this and I think in

39:43terms of the unity that animates

39:47and then I ask myself how am I going to

39:50be animated today? Animate me and I'm

39:53open to being animated by the Holy

39:56Spirit. And that's that's how we start

39:59the day that and on a prayer of

40:01gratitude. And I love that because it

40:05anytime I have the if I have time, which

40:10I often do when I pray, I can sometimes

40:13even meditate on that for minutes at a

40:16time because if you really think about

40:19those that relationship, there's many

40:22many ideas that can can be born in that

40:25reflection. And uh but of course we

40:28don't always have lots of time to pray.

40:30So uh if I'm in a hurry then I think in

40:33terms of the the unity that animates and

40:37I try to unite myself as much as I can

40:39with that trinity and allow myself to be

40:41animated and that brings me in a much

40:44deeper uh prayerful state than just the

40:47okay I'm kind of praying now and that's

40:50that's one of one of the many things he

40:52taught me.

40:53>> Yeah. Did he share with you um about his

40:56his code of arms? Right. So his code of

40:59arms, it's the truth set you free. Yeah.

41:03>> Yeah. I don't believe I don't remember

41:05him speaking about it in any great

41:07detail, but I know that um he uses the

41:09family code of arms and then the St.

41:11Andrew um uh symbols. Mhm.

41:17>> And I think generally like most priests

41:19I mean the the truth of the faith is so

41:23central

41:24>> and the truth will set you free. And in

41:27that uh with that motto set you free.

41:31I'd like to also share another thing he

41:33he taught me which really helped me and

41:36I think can help anybody in their lives.

41:39He talked me about the three conditions

41:41to genuine forgiveness which is so

41:45essential.

41:47>> Condition number one is

41:51the complete renunciation categorical

41:54renunciation of revenge which people

41:58often confuse with justice as if we are

42:01the judges and we can bring justice and

42:04we're going to make revenge that it'll

42:06be justice. It's not. Revenge is always

42:09from the devil. Always. And for um to

42:13begin with, maybe I should have started

42:14with the idea that forgiveness is not

42:16pardon. A pardon is something else.

42:18Forgiveness is a spiritual uh idea and

42:24pardon is more uh removing a punishment

42:28that has been in uh announced or or

42:31judgment. Now so the first condition of

42:36authentic

42:37uh forgiveness is the categorical

42:40renunciation of revenge. The second

42:44condition is being genuinely open to a

42:49genuine reconciliation.

42:52>> Being open to it but not to a false

42:55reconciliation.

42:57There's no guarantee that there will be

42:58a reconciliation, but simply being open

43:01to it and not closing yourself off to

43:02the person you believe did you wrong.

43:07Not easy for a lot of people. And then

43:09the third, probably the most difficult

43:11for a lot of people, is

43:14wishing the person you believe wronged

43:17you every possible grace.

43:21>> Wishing that person well.

43:23Now the magic of these three, if you're

43:26capable of cultivating these three

43:28principles,

43:30then the baggage of resentment

43:34disappears

43:36and you're free.

43:38And I I really find that I found that

43:41very very helpful in my life because

43:42everybody has people who who we believe

43:46do do us wrong. And some of the times

43:49it's genuine, sometimes it's just our

43:50imagination. But if you're capable of

43:54cultivating these three principles,

43:58you're free. The baggage of resentment

44:00is gone.

44:02And uh also I think one thing I would

44:05add to this is the idea that um we

44:09uh we're all sinners and we all deserve

44:13punishment to one degree or another, but

44:15Christ is full of mercy and forgiveness

44:18for us. So if we ask

44:21Christ to forgive us,

44:23it's very appropriate for us to forgive

44:26others. It makes every sense in the

44:29world. Uh the that we shouldn't be

44:33one-sided about forgiveness, only

44:35wanting forgiveness and never offering

44:37it.

44:38So that those are the that's one of the

44:41very very helpful uh if you will life

44:43hacks or faith hacks that I learned from

44:47the uh from the cardinal.

44:49>> That's beautiful. Yes. Yeah. And you

44:53know you know you mentioned about um the

44:56cardinal's humor. Yeah. and and I and I

45:00transcrossed um one that he he spoke

45:03about his own self because you know

45:05because of his his illness right that

45:08has left him paralyzed and but yet at

45:10the same time because he has many

45:11visitors and

45:13>> he would and he would say you know I'm

45:16like the coliseum right I'm in it's it's

45:19in ruins but it is very popular

45:23>> exactly where if somebody asked him um

45:28>> uh how are

45:29He would say, "I'm like at the

45:30coliseum."

45:31>> Yeah.

45:31>> A ruin, but very well visited.

45:34>> Yeah.

45:34>> Yeah. He always had a sense of humor

45:36with that. But in that context, I'd say

45:38he one of the way he served the the pope

45:42was he considered himself the the court

45:44gesture of the Vatican because he was

45:47off every Sunday invited to lunch or

45:50almost every Sunday. Whenever I was

45:52there and it was Sunday, he had lunch

45:55with the pope. I had to eat by myself.

45:58Once I had I was invited when a priest

46:00who was invited to the pope's lunch

46:02couldn't make it in the last minute. Uh

46:04he he brought me in. So I was I wonder

46:07had a wonderful little lunch with the

46:09pope and my uncle. That was really nice.

46:11But generally my uncle uh like I said he

46:15was considered himself a court gesture

46:17in the sense that he would himself have

46:19lots of guests in his apartment almost

46:22for every meal. and he would love he

46:26would ask the his guests about their

46:28jokes and he they they were there was a

46:31big sense of humor. So he would collect

46:33the best jokes and entertain the pope uh

46:37at lunch which was sort of his time off

46:39after the Angelus. there was lunch and

46:41that was his free time and they would uh

46:45you know talk talk whatever about

46:46whatever they wanted to talk about but

46:48he would always try to come with a good

46:50joke and one thing I really loved about

46:53the Vatican is that the the really

46:55interesting cardinals and bishops had a

46:58very developed sense of humor and also

47:00selfironic sense of humor. Um many

47:04people think that popes and uh bishops

47:06and card and priests should always be

47:09very serious and of course they should

47:10be serious on serious matters. But

47:13in my experience, not only in the

47:15church, but also in my own profession as

47:17a musician,

47:18>> I found that the people who are at the

47:20really top

47:22uh those are the people who are of

47:24course very serious about their what

47:25they're doing, but they know when and

47:27how to introduce an element of humor and

47:30very often selfironic humor, making fun

47:33of themselves. That's a sign of I think

47:36maturity and understanding and

47:39confidence that they know who they are

47:42and they can they can still joke about

47:44themselves. And I think probably well

47:47there's many jokes that that that I

47:49heard, but my favorite one I think is

47:52very interesting because it's it's sort

47:54of a self-ironic

47:56joke about about bishops and and and

47:58things like that. So, for some reason,

48:02nobody knows why, the bishop of Verona

48:07is the butt of the jokes in the Vatican,

48:11according to my uncle. Nobody knows why.

48:14He's the the silliest, the the stupidest

48:18or whatever. You know how how jokes go.

48:21And the joke goes like this.

48:24A new bishop of Verona

48:27invites all the Paris priests one by one

48:30to come and talk about their problems.

48:31And one comes in and he's incredibly

48:34shy. Doesn't even look at the bishop in

48:36his eyes. And he's clearly

48:39has some problems. And the bishop said,

48:41"Well,

48:42what's your what are the problems in the

48:44in the parish?" No, I don't want to talk

48:46about I'm so embarrassed. I'm so

48:48embarrassed. Oh, come on. Come on. I'm

48:50your bishop and I I I need to know. And

48:52so he finally says, "All right. Okay.

48:53Okay. I'll tell you. I'm so ashamed. I

48:56shouldn't have done it, but

48:59I baptized a cat.

49:02And the what? Come on. You know you

49:05can't do that. And I know I can't do

49:07that. But we have a big problem in the

49:10parish. The church is in a horrible

49:12state and it needs to be renovated. And

49:14we have an extremely wealthy but very

49:18Catholic parishioner

49:21who can't stand the fact that in her

49:24Catholic house she has a pagan cat. So

49:27she offered to pay for the entire

49:29renovation on the condition that I

49:32baptized her cat. And I tried to explain

49:35to her that it's not valid. I'm not

49:37allowed to do that. It's wrong. But she

49:40insisted and ultimately

49:44I gave in. I baptized the cat and she

49:46paid for everything.

49:49And the bishop was startled and didn't

49:51really know what to say. And

49:53I was thinking about I mean how much

49:55could it have been? 15 million euros. My

49:59goodness. Bishop's thinking and thinking

50:01and then he okay I've got the solution.

50:04Of course, this stays just between the

50:07two of us,

50:09and I'll forgive you on the condition

50:13that when the cat is ready for

50:16confirmation,

50:17you send the cat to me.

50:21Of course, this is a joke that the the

50:23the bishops between themselves will

50:26tell. Of course, the publicly would

50:30never say that. A bishop would never

50:31tell a joke like that because it would

50:33easily unfortunately be manipulated by

50:36the the price of bad will.

50:39>> But uh at the same time I think what is

50:42what's interesting about this joke is it

50:43shows that they understand that even

50:45among themselves they know there are

50:47corrupt bishops. The the church

50:49unfortunately has been

50:52saddled with so many uh

50:56scandals through the centuries. That is

50:59a fact of life. And they're not denying

51:00it. They're actually making a joke out

51:02of it. Uh not I mean not not joking that

51:06I mean they're

51:08joking because they know it's fact and

51:11uh there are bishops who might even

51:13think in those categories. But I found

51:16that a very interesting joke uh that it

51:19um and another one along the same lines

51:22uh that a bishop, a young bishop had a

51:27problem that every time he left his

51:29home, there was a young school boy who

51:32was just watching him, not saying

51:35anything, not coming to him, but just

51:37watching him and following him a little

51:39bit. And that made him feel awkward. So

51:42he went up to the boy and wanted to find

51:44out if he can do something for him and

51:48uh he always walked away. He always he

51:50never was able to talk with him. And he

51:54spoke about this with a experienced

51:56bishop

51:58and the bishop said, "Oh, it's an easy

52:00problem to solve. Just confirm him and

52:03you'll never see him again."

52:06Now that's also in a way a sad joke

52:09because it's talking about the reality

52:11that many people feel that they're

52:14finished after confirmation. It's like

52:15graduation, they've got their diploma

52:17and they're done.

52:18>> Yeah.

52:18>> Which of course is it's the other way

52:20around. That's just the beginning

52:22>> of their adult life as a Christian. But

52:24uh it's it's a kind of a constructive

52:26way to um deal with the frustration that

52:30they have that many people uh distance

52:35themselves from the church when they uh

52:37when they get get confirmed.

52:39>> Yeah.

52:41Yeah. you know, Cardinal Descar was, you

52:44know, held the appointment as um the

52:46president for the Pontifical Council for

52:49Communications,

52:50>> right? And you know, you know, today,

52:53you know, the Fosate has has this

52:56outreach of the social media platform.

53:00And you know what what do you think

53:02Kadesca would would have said or if he

53:04had been here today? he had been alive

53:07today and you know looking at the the

53:10capabilities that we have for

53:12evangelization through the media. Yeah.

53:15Oh, I think he would have a twofold

53:18approach. Number one, he would probably

53:21want to

53:22take maximum advantage of the

53:25possibilities but at the same time he

53:27would uh recommend that the dangers

53:31>> be studied very carefully. And I think

53:32that's also the the spirit in which uh

53:36Pope Leon right now is looking at AI and

53:40uh social media in general that the it's

53:43of course a great tool for

53:44evangelization but it's easily

53:47manipulated by enemies of the church to

53:50um so false narratives. So for example,

53:53I was surprised uh recently around the

53:57time of the death of Pope Francis and

53:59the election of Leon how many false

54:03attributations to the pope. I noticed on

54:06Facebook

54:08uh completely ideologically oriented

54:11quotes about being woke. Woke is not a

54:16uh woke being woke is a vocation. Mhm.

54:19>> Pope Leon, he never ever said that. And

54:24uh that's the danger of the social

54:27medias. It's so easy to just throw a

54:31quote in there and put a name of a pope

54:33and people swallow it. And I really like

54:37the quote that I saw once on the

54:39internet was um don't believe everything

54:43you read in the internet, Abraham

54:45Lincoln. as if it were a quote from

54:48Abraham Lincoln, which of course is

54:51ridiculous because he never knew the

54:53internet.

54:54>> But there there with every advancement,

54:57be it television, radio, internet, AI,

55:00you have possibilities and

55:03dangers. And I'm sure he would look at

55:06it from both ends. Let's take advantage

55:09of its possibilities but be very very

55:11careful about its dangers and study its

55:14dangers and be prepared to to uh protect

55:18the church and the the teaching from the

55:21dangers.

55:22>> Yeah. So know Edward we know we've been

55:26you know discussing quite a bit on on

55:28the cardinal you know is there you know

55:31you know maybe before we wrap up you

55:33know is there anything that you might

55:35want to share about you know um any last

55:38thoughts on on the late cardinal desk

55:42>> definitely um I have a whole number of

55:46uh

55:47where is that Just

56:06Oh yeah. One thing I thought I I thought

56:09was very interesting that I learned from

56:10him was he explained to me the classic

56:14understanding of primus interpares. you

56:17know that first among equals because the

56:20pope is a bishop primarily

56:23>> and but he's the first bishop among all

56:26bishops

56:28>> and that means he's not a dictator like

56:31people tend to think the pope is. He's

56:34of course a monarch. He has the first

56:36and the last word but not the only word.

56:40And my understanding of his

56:42understanding

56:44is that in the tradition of the church,

56:46the pope has the obligation to listen to

56:50his equals to listen to the other

56:52bishops.

56:54And there's an expression in Latin

56:58ponderandom non numerandum meaning that

57:02when he makes his final decisions

57:05it should be based on the weight of the

57:09argument the strongest heaviest argument

57:13should carry the day and not the number

57:17of bishops that support one position or

57:20the other. So it could be a position

57:23that the pope believes has the greatest

57:26weight but isn't supported by a large

57:30number of bishops and cardinals.

57:32>> And I really like that idea that first

57:35of all it's not a steep dominant

57:38hierarchy in the sense that only he has

57:40anything to say and everybody has to

57:42listen to him and do what he says. Of

57:45course they do have to listen to him.

57:46They're he's their boss. He's the the

57:48monarch. He's the pope. But he also has

57:52the obligation to listen. That's why I

57:54was very happy to hear when uh Pope Leon

57:58was saying I want to listen. And people

58:02who know him say he's very good at

58:05listening. He doesn't speak as as much

58:07as he listens. And that's very important

58:10because uh cardinals and bishops they

58:14are more or less in the same they should

58:15be in the same league of spiritual

58:17development and understanding of the

58:19church. And if

58:22somebody at the very top doesn't want to

58:24listen to somebody who's lower in the

58:26hierarchy that has a really good idea

58:29then that hierarchy won't reach its full

58:32potential. Like in the orchestra same

58:34same situation. If you have an orchestra

58:37where a conductor doesn't want to hear

58:40anything from the musicians, he's just

58:42issuing directives,

58:44>> that orchestra will never achieve its

58:46full potential. And I've been w I've

58:50been a witness to many situations where

58:53excellent ideas come out of the

58:54orchestra that the conductor ultimately

58:57approves and says, "Okay, let's do it

58:59this way." And they're wonderful. And

59:02that orchestra wouldn't achieve its full

59:05potential if there wasn't that

59:07communication between the people lower

59:10in the hierarchy and the ultimate

59:12decision maker. And that is how the

59:15church should work. And um and I think

59:19that's a really interesting idea. And

59:22this primus in idea is not only in the

59:24church. You see that in some courts. You

59:26see that in some governments. The Swiss

59:28government for example uh has seven

59:31equal members, but one is the president

59:34for one year and leads the meetings. But

59:38they're all equals and they have to

59:41listen to each other. And I think that's

59:43very good. And the church will

59:45definitely have problems when the pope

59:46stops listening to people. And it's it's

59:50very important that he has good

59:53communication and open communication

59:55with everybody because uh they're very

59:58complicated issues and some people might

1:00:01have better insights when they're not in

1:00:04Rome. I mean,

1:00:07>> yeah, I I'll just leave it with that.

1:00:11>> Great. Mhm.

1:00:12>> Right. Thank you very much, uh, Edward.

1:00:14I just wanted to, you know, maybe end

1:00:17off with, you know, uh, mentioning what

1:00:20Pope John Paul II said when he appointed

1:00:23Cardinal Desk, you know, he said this,

1:00:26right? I've been particularly close to

1:00:29him since my student days, since our

1:00:31brotherly days at the Yagalonian

1:00:33University, then through the seminary,

1:00:36through my years as a priest, through

1:00:38many meetings in Rome, in particular

1:00:40through the last meeting that took place

1:00:42just before the conclave. It was then

1:00:45that divine providence touched Bishop

1:00:47Anjescer with the severe disability that

1:00:50he still carries with him today. Among

1:00:53all the cardinals created today, he was

1:00:56the only one in a wheelchair. He brings

1:00:59to this college a special mark, the mark

1:01:02of suffering. The mark of suffering that

1:01:04is a sacrifice. We do not know God's

1:01:07ways. We do not know God's mysteries.

1:01:10But I personally find it difficult to

1:01:12resist the conviction that this

1:01:14sacrifice of Archbishop Anj now Cardinal

1:01:18Anj was connected with the conclave that

1:01:21took place in mid-occtober

1:01:231978 in which he was then elected the

1:01:27pope of the the Catholic Church. Right,

1:01:30with that, you know, thank you very

1:01:31much, Edward. Um, you know, it's been a

1:01:34pleasure. I know I've never imagined

1:01:36myself being able to speak to a nephew

1:01:39of the late Cardinal, and I hope to

1:01:42have, you know, yeah, to to to catch up

1:01:44with you sometime again.

1:01:47>> Well, thank you for the honor of the

1:01:48invitation. I was happy to share uh the

1:01:51little bits tid tidbits of information

1:01:53that I was able to learn from him. Very

1:01:56happy to share that.

1:01:57>> Yeah, thank you.