Interview

0:01Okay, I will first wanted to take the

0:03time to say thank you for sitting down

0:06and letting me interview you today. Um,

0:09this is essentially an interview where I

0:12just want to get to know you. Um, some

0:14of the experiences you've had, the way

0:16you've grown up, important parts of your

0:18history, um, and just essentially know

0:21what your story is. Um, if at any time

0:24you are not comfortable answering any of

0:26the questions, um, you can just tell me

0:28that you're not comfortable answering

0:29them.

0:31Um, so the first thing I kind of like to

0:34know is a little bit about your

0:35childhood and growing up and what was

0:37life like for you.

0:40Well, I grew up in Oaklair. Um, rather

0:44large city compared to where I'm living

0:46now. And, um, lived in the same house

0:50uh, my whole life. I had one sister and

0:53I lived with both parents. Um it was

0:56kind of a normal 70s childhood. Um

1:00outside in the summer all the time on

1:02bikes playing um playing with neighbors

1:06and the winter in the snow. So um lots

1:10of lots of fun times with neighbor

1:12neighbor friends.

1:14>> And what about your family life? What

1:16was that like for you?

1:18>> Um family life was good. I had um both

1:21parents um with me my my whole

1:23childhood. Um spent a lot of time with

1:26grandparents, especially my mother's um

1:30parents. Um did a lot of learned a lot

1:33of things from them. Um did a lot of

1:36projects with my grandpa, a lot of

1:38baking things and that kind of stuff

1:40with my grandma, fishing.

1:42Um we did a lot of camping. had a camper

1:46and used to go um up north quite a bit

1:49and um that was pretty much the

1:51vacations we had. We didn't really

1:53travel other places other than with our

1:55camper. Um and I was happy with that. Uh

1:59we we enjoyed that. My sister was 5

2:02years older than me, so as younger kids,

2:05we didn't do as much together um as when

2:09we got older, just because our age

2:11difference and kind of pretty different

2:13interests. I was probably considered a

2:16tomboy. I enjoyed being outside, playing

2:19sports, riding my bike. Um, we had, you

2:24know, the traditional holidays. Went to

2:26my grandma's for most of them.

2:29>> So, it sounds like your family was

2:30pretty close while you were growing up.

2:32[snorts]

2:32>> Um,

2:34was the home environment, was it a good,

2:36would you describe it as a good home

2:38environment to grow up in? Was there um

2:41any significant like mental health stuff

2:43you had to deal with or substance use?

2:47>> Nope. No substance use or mental health.

2:49Um my parents occasionally had spats,

2:52didn't get along. Um sometimes my dad

2:56had a little bit of an anger thing, but

2:57not to the point of like domestic or

2:59anything like that. Just um volatile

3:02anger at times. Um mostly just with my

3:07mom, not with us as kids. Um, but it was

3:12not the rule. I mean, occasionally that

3:14would happen.

3:15>> So, that was like exceptions to the

3:17norms if things like that were to

3:18happen.

3:19>> Yeah.

3:20>> Um, I want to take it back even further

3:22a little bit um to your earlier years.

3:25Were there any developmental delays or

3:28any significant childhood illness or

3:30injuries that you ever experienced?

3:33>> Not very fortunate. Nothing. And there

3:36was never um a learning disability or

3:38anything like that?

3:39>> No.

3:40>> Okay. How would you describe your

3:42overall physical health when you were a

3:44child?

3:45>> Excellent. Um just normal stuff that you

3:48went to the clinic for. Um I had tonsils

3:52out and tubes in my ears. Um once I got

3:55the ear thing fixed, um very, you know,

3:58didn't miss school. Um had pretty I used

4:01to get the CRO. That was one thing. I

4:03got to croo every year and I often was

4:05hospitalized for that briefly or

4:08sometimes we were able to manage it with

4:11steam in the bathroom but at the time

4:13back then they used to put you in this

4:15little tent and in in the hospital until

4:18you got over it but I think I grew it

4:20when I was like 11 or 12 but normally um

4:24I would have it every year.

4:25>> Okay. Um and you said that there was no

4:27significant like family mental health

4:29disorders or addiction. Correct.

4:31>> Right. Okay. Um, and only if you're

4:33comfortable sharing, was substance use

4:34ever something that you struggled with?

4:37>> No.

4:38>> Normal college fun.

4:40>> Normal college. Fine.

4:41>> Moved on.

4:42>> Um, so speaking of college, can you tell

4:44me a little bit about what your college

4:46what your education looked like? You

4:48graduated high school, went to college,

4:51>> graduated um in Oaklair and then also

4:54stayed college there. So, I had a little

4:56bit different experience than some um

4:59because I lived at home and my college

5:02friends were also my high school

5:04friends. So, um didn't really branch out

5:06a lot with that, which sometimes, you

5:07know, I wanted my own children to

5:09experience that a little bit because I

5:10didn't. Although being from a town

5:14that's larger, there was a large variety

5:16of people to hang with that I knew. Um

5:19also, since I was in sports, um I knew

5:21kids from the other school as well. Um,

5:24and then like classes above and below

5:26us, we hung out with our friends,

5:28brothers and sisters, and that kind of

5:29thing. But for the most part,

5:32my friend group was my high school

5:35friend group. Um, so anyways, went four

5:38years at four and a half actually at

5:40Oaklair um and graduated with social

5:43work degree.

5:45>> And what was what was your career path

5:48after that?

5:49So um just a lot of places um of course

5:54the job market was different than it is

5:56now and there was a lot of competition.

5:59um especially in a bigger city like

6:01Oaklair um mostly you had to work in

6:05like a runaway shelter or one of another

6:08facility there and then you would to get

6:10into child protection and work like as a

6:13county social worker you had to post

6:16into those positions if you didn't have

6:18any experience which I did not. So, um,

6:21off I went to Richland County and, um,

6:24worked social services there and was

6:27there a few months and decided to go

6:30with another colleague to W Platville to

6:33start my counselor ed program. Um, got

6:36interested in that in my internship as

6:38an undergrad at one of the high schools

6:40in Oakair.

6:43Um, so started that, really enjoyed it

6:46and liked it. Um and so continued on and

6:50worked full-time and went to school in

6:52the evenings. Of course, that was before

6:54online, so you had to go. Um and um it

6:58was really a nice program. They had it

7:00set up for working people and my job was

7:02really flexible and letting me get out

7:04about 3:30 so I could get to Platville

7:07by 4:30 and um and went into um the

7:11school system after that.

7:13>> Okay. Um, and then did you finish out

7:16your career and retired with the school

7:18system?

7:19>> I did, but um about nine years into

7:23guidance um I switched to administration

7:27um right after my second child was born,

7:30I started grad school in Madison and um

7:34drove to Madison for that. And um we

7:38kind of tried to make it a family thing.

7:40Tom would come with me and take the kids

7:42to grandma and grandpa's farm and they

7:43would hang out and they come back pick

7:45me up. So that was kind of fun. Um but

7:48um [clears throat] did that and got my

7:50um I didn't need to get another master's

7:52the way they had it set up. You could

7:54get a certification, same classes. I

7:57just didn't have to do another thesis.

7:59So got um admin degree and then switched

8:02to um I started out assistant KA

8:05principal and then moved into the

8:06principal ship and retired as a

8:08principal. Okay. So, from what I've

8:12heard, and I just want to clarify to

8:14make sure I have everything, you were

8:15born and raised in Oaklair, had a pretty

8:17normal, healthy family life. Um, and

8:20then

8:22went to college in Oaklair where you got

8:25your bachelor's in social work. um

8:27worked in child protection for a few

8:30years and then transitioned to going to

8:33grad school for guidance um to work in

8:36the schools and then eventually became a

8:38principal and that is where you retired.

8:40>> Correct.

8:41>> Okay. Well, that sounds like an amazing

8:44uh career path. So, congratulations to

8:46that. Um so, kind of shifting gears a

8:49little bit. Um,

8:52you said earlier that you kind of when

8:54you were going to get your certificate

8:56that you would make it a family event.

8:59Um, so I'm assuming you're married or

9:00you were married at the time.

9:02>> Mhm.

9:02>> Okay. Um, and tell me a little bit about

9:04what your family looks like, not with

9:06your husband and if you guys have any

9:08children.

9:09>> Yes, we um live in Richland County and

9:13um I thought that I was coming to

9:15Richland Center to get a job experience

9:17and move on and here I am.

9:20um which ended up being great for our

9:22kids in our careers. Um got married um

9:26had kids about a few about four years

9:28after we got married, two sons. My

9:32husband had a a daughter when we got

9:34married. Um and we pretty much um you

9:40know did the nuclear family things that

9:42nuclear families do, I guess. Um we

9:46participated in the kids activities, we

9:48coached, we did all that stuff. Um and

9:53um built the new house and that was kind

9:55of a big adventure for us. Built the log

9:57house um when the kids were like two and

10:00four. Um I went back to school when they

10:03were

10:04not even a year and two. So that was

10:07challenging. Um but um you know, we made

10:10that work. My husband was in law

10:13enforcement and in management, so it was

10:15kind of nice. Although he worked a lot,

10:17he was busy, he also had a pretty

10:19flexible schedule because of his

10:20position.

10:22Um, so we were able to work things out

10:24that way. Um,

10:28let's see. Where else do you want me to

10:29go with that? Um, you did a great job

10:32summarizing um, the family you created.

10:35It sounds like you had a lot of support.

10:37>> What was postpartum like for you with

10:39either of the boys? Were there any

10:40complications or struggles that you had

10:42endured?

10:43>> Well, my first child was uh early. Um he

10:46was a preeie, so it was, you know, a

10:49struggle for a while being at the

10:50hospital. He would be at the hospital,

10:52we came home. Um that was really hard.

10:55Um driving back and forth, not feeling

10:57the best. But um I always tried to look

11:01at other kids in the NICU and I was

11:03like, my child was just trying to get a

11:05little bigger and a little stronger. And

11:07there were other people that had real

11:08issues that were much more more of a

11:11thing than mine, just being tired. Um so

11:15he came home within a couple weeks and

11:18um you know there wasn't any further

11:20complications.

11:21Um

11:23so just other than the normal I'm really

11:25tired uh and thinking I'm never going to

11:28sleep again. Remember crying about that

11:30a few times. Then um other than that uh

11:34you know we did have Neither of our

11:36parents lived here so we didn't have

11:38that, but um my mom and dad were really

11:40good about coming here and staying with

11:42us and um they did that a lot.

11:46>> You said that your husband had a

11:47daughter um from a previous

11:49relationship. How was that experience

11:52for you being with somebody who has um a

11:55child?

11:56>> Um well, first it was I [snorts] wasn't

11:58sure about it. um she um was gosh 11

12:04maybe when they met. So of course she

12:06was already starting to go through some

12:08of those pre-teen things and that could

12:09be challenging at times and you know

12:11there were times I was like oh um but

12:14for the most part she adjusted really

12:16well. Um we were in the same town and

12:19really had a flexible schedule. Um

12:22didn't have to do that traditional got

12:24to be back by six got you know we just

12:26like kind of worked things out and

12:28always seemed to work. I There were

12:29there were struggles um you know child

12:32support and finances and that kind of

12:34thing was um something that at times

12:37came up um hard for a child to

12:40understand

12:41that child supports going to that child

12:45already. So to add a lot of extra money

12:48and things when they're visiting is hard

12:50sometimes. Um especially at that point

12:52in their lives where I was just kind of

12:54starting out in a new job. Um but um she

13:00was she was a good kid. You know, things

13:02things worked out. Normal um trials and

13:04tribulations, but I think some of them

13:05were just normal teen things that would

13:07happen no matter what the situation was.

13:10>> How do you think your experience with

13:14social work and school guidance and your

13:16husband's experience um in law

13:18enforcement kind of shaped how the two

13:20of you decided to parent your children?

13:23Well, I mean, for the most part, I think

13:25it was a positive thing and that we saw

13:28the downfalls and the pitfalls and

13:30things that could happen. Um, and we

13:32understood that and knew how to support

13:34that. I think sometimes it's hard and

13:37not fair for the kids because we did

13:39know all of that. Um, and so sometimes,

13:43um, not so much, but I probably

13:45overreacted at times with things like

13:47thinking something's going to be a big

13:48deal. Probably wasn't a big deal. Um,

13:51worrying about sounded or looked or that

13:53kind of thing was something I needed to

13:55always put in perspective, which it

13:57wasn't very good at at times. Um, you

14:01know, probably the expectations for the

14:02kids was higher than than was fair at

14:06times. Um, you know, some of the little

14:08things that probably were just you could

14:10have laughed about it made me worried

14:13and nervous. Um,

14:16yeah. So, I think for the most part it

14:18was good because we knew and understood,

14:21but I also think it could have been a

14:23little more light-hearted at times if we

14:25didn't have so much knowledge.

14:28>> You had stated earlier that you were

14:30born and raised and grew up and spent

14:32most of your youth in a bigger city. Um,

14:35and now having raised children and

14:39established roots and had your family

14:42and careers in a smaller community. Um,

14:47would you say that there was quite a bit

14:49there was different there was a big

14:50difference in growing up in a big city

14:52versus raising kids in a smaller city?

14:55>> Well, I think it's kind of hard to

14:57compare from when I was that age to when

15:01my kids were growing up. I don't think

15:03it was hugely different because of that

15:07for my childhood. But if I compare my

15:10friends still in that town having

15:11raising kids at the same time I did. I

15:14would say much more favorable in a small

15:16town. I mean when I was growing up I

15:19didn't see my town as a big town and

15:22[clears throat] you know you just I

15:23didn't know anything else. And um it

15:26wasn't so crazy busy like there wasn't

15:28um you know big crime rate and that kind

15:31of thing.

15:32I would say that um in a small town

15:35parents tend to be a little bit more

15:36involved and um that's a good thing. But

15:40then the negative piece to that is

15:42everything's personal

15:44>> where a lot of times in a bigger town

15:47you don't even know them, you know,

15:48don't know the situation. So

15:50everything's personal.

15:51>> Um but I would definitely pick um over

15:55and over a small town to raise my kids.

15:58What would you say um are some of the

16:00most significant experiences that you've

16:03lived throughout your lifetime?

16:06The ones that um kind of shaped who you

16:09are or the ones that left kind of the

16:11biggest mark on you?

16:14Um, I would say as a child, um,

16:18definitely the friendships that I had

16:21and the friend groups, the YMCA, the

16:24sports, the camaraderie of a lot of

16:27great friends. Um, probably was a big

16:30shape shaping my life a lot. U, my

16:34sister had kids really early. That

16:35certainly um,

16:39shaped my idea of when I wanted to have

16:41my family. didn't want to happen really

16:43early. I saw some of those struggles. Um

16:47I didn't want that. Um

16:50I would say um you know having having my

16:55kids and my husband and you know being

16:57in a what I would say with a positive

17:00situation was um

17:03it was really helped my career because I

17:05remember seeing people that just really

17:08had struggles at home and thinking,

17:09"Wow, this is a really hard job." and

17:11then they go home and that's a really

17:13hard place to like when I went home I

17:16that wasn't a hard place. Um I think

17:19another thing that really helped me and

17:20shaped me is that my husband did

17:22something similar that I did and so

17:24there was understanding and support of

17:26what we were doing. Um and you know you

17:30talk shop or whatever. I mean, we were

17:32able to see that and and then when we

17:34were both in management, the same things

17:36like same struggles, different place,

17:38different people, you know.

17:41>> So,

17:43would you say it's safe to say that like

17:4510 years ago verse now, life was

17:47completely different for you?

17:48>> Oh gosh. Um, what has life been like for

17:52you now that you're retired and the kids

17:54are out of the home and doing their own

17:56thing and you guys it's just the two of

17:58you and

17:59>> you're kind of empty nesters now.

18:01>> Much more chill. Um, much more sleep,

18:05much more um just less responsibility.

18:08Um, when you're in it, you don't think

18:11that. You don't think you just like

18:12that's what you do. You get up, you

18:14know, you don't get much sleep. You get

18:15laundry done at 11 o'clock at night when

18:17the kids are in bed and you have it

18:18ready and you know then there's the

18:20stages when they're little versus high

18:22school and all the sports and uniforms

18:24and food for the football team you know

18:26sometime and then work you know and gosh

18:29how did I do that um much more chill now

18:33um you know going back to what I said

18:35about a little bit more worried about

18:38what we had to worry about because of

18:39our jobs I don't really want to say

18:41image but that that's a negative

18:43conotation but kind of like that um not

18:46worry about that anymore. Um although

18:49I'm careful because my you know one of

18:52my children is in that situation. I

18:54don't want to embarrass him [snorts] but

18:56um just I don't have the worries and

18:59stress that I have.

19:01Was there any moments um throughout your

19:05lifespan that you can think of where

19:08your race, religion, gender, or even

19:11your culture had impacted you in a

19:13negative or even a positive way?

19:16>> Oh, there's no matter how far we've come

19:18for women, there's still an issue um

19:22with the way people think and um

19:26especially being a female in

19:27administration. Um I don't know how many

19:31times I went to the national principal

19:32conference and there would be um a

19:35gathering pre the night before and um

19:38you know I used to travel to one of

19:40these places and more times than not we

19:43would be standing somewhere um you know

19:45just talking in a social gathering with

19:47people and they would turn to my husband

19:49and say so where do you you know where

19:51are you principal at every time

19:54um and he would have to say well it's my

19:57wife that's principal Um I received a

19:59couple years before the year before I

20:01retired um the um rural principal of the

20:05year um award and we were sitting at a

20:09table where there was like labeled where

20:13you know what um what our award was and

20:15we were waiting for the lunchon to start

20:17and older gentleman came up and

20:20basically we were sitting together put

20:23his back to me and said to Tom well

20:25congratulations on your award.

20:29and he said that's my wife that got the

20:32award.

20:33>> How did you handle yourself in those

20:34situations?

20:35>> Um

20:37well normally I was in a professional

20:41position this situation. So this

20:44depraction sometimes I would say you

20:47know what that's depending on who the

20:49person was um and how well I knew them

20:52was pretty stereotypical or you know how

20:54come you thought that or you know and

20:56and they would and sometimes it was

20:58people who are in the profession you

20:59know you know all kinds of women who are

21:01in this profession why would you say

21:02that

21:04>> um I would say that bothered me less

21:06than I do feel that there were times um

21:09that I was judged

21:12because I female in in in the workplace.

21:17>> You mentioned that this would happen to

21:19you at like conferences and your awards

21:20ceremony and things like that. Um did

21:23you ever experience any of these issues

21:26with your gender, your race, anything

21:28like that? Um in the community you

21:29resided in or in the school that you

21:32were working in

21:34>> or were they pretty accepting?

21:36>> Well,

21:37you know, once you got established, I

21:40think that there wasn't an issue. Um, a

21:43lot of it has to do with who your

21:44supports were and who who my um, people

21:47above me were at the time. Um, I would

21:49say I had one person that was um, a

21:52supervisor that did not do a nice job of

21:56um, educating the board or leading by

22:01example, I guess would be a better word

22:03for it. Um, I was once asked a question

22:07in an interview how I thought that I

22:09could do a certain position. Um, being a

22:12young mother of two kids, which

22:16should never be asked. I was asked that

22:18one time. Um,

22:21basically, in my opinion, didn't get the

22:23job because of it. Um,

22:26you know, you got to make a decision.

22:28Are you going to make a big deal about

22:29that or is this something you want to be

22:32in this this business and you don't want

22:35to be that per it was a tough it was

22:37tough situation. ended up to be in my

22:39best interest and I got a different job

22:41and it was better. But at the time I was

22:44pretty ticked because I felt like I had

22:47never neglected my position at all

22:50because of that. Um, and I know one

22:54person that was going against me um had

22:56three children, but he was a male and I

22:58would be curious if he was asked that

22:59same question.

23:02Um, so yeah, that those types of things

23:04still happen.

23:06Yeah, I can definitely um relate to that

23:09as my last position was in management

23:11and um being younger too, I felt like my

23:15gender wasn't so much to do with it as

23:18to what my age was um where the

23:20discrimination came into play.

23:21>> I would say when I first started as a

23:23principal, the age thing was more than

23:26the gender because there were a lot of

23:29um people with a lot more experience

23:31than me that

23:35thought they knew more than me, which

23:36probably did. Um, so weren't thrilled to

23:39have somebody on the show that was, you

23:42know, 30 years younger than her.

23:44>> Um, is there anything else that you feel

23:47is important for me to know to kind of

23:50get to know you and kind of hear your

23:52story throughout life that I haven't

23:53already asked?

23:56Um, I think

23:59I think for the most part when you look

24:01back at your your life and the choices

24:03that you made, um, I feel like, you

24:06know, I was pretty fortunate and pretty

24:08lucky. There's some things I look at, my

24:10goodness, did I make it through that?

24:12Um, and I I feel very fortunate, but it

24:16certainly wasn't perfect. And, you know,

24:18you look at some things, you're like,

24:20yeah, I could have done better on that.

24:22Um, but I think that's a healthy way to

24:24back at things. Um, I think for the most

24:27part I feel when I retired,

24:30you know, I still have people saying,

24:32"Oh, I wish you'd come back or, you

24:34know, which I I appreciate that." Um,

24:37and it's flattering, but at the same

24:39time, I I feel like I did a really good

24:41job and gave everything I could to that.

24:45Um, and so I don't feel guilty about it

24:48was my my time. And I also seem to think

24:51same thing think the same thing about my

24:53kids. I mean, there's And I'm like,

24:54"Yeah, I could I could have done that

24:57better. I could see why that book, you

24:59um but at the same time, I think they

25:01had pretty good lives."

25:02>> You said that you just knew it was your

25:04time. Um, how did you know? How do you

25:07know? How did you know that you were

25:08ready to start a next chapter in your

25:10life?

25:11>> Um, well, there were several factors. I

25:13mean, they weren't all professional

25:14factors. Some was my husband had already

25:16been retired and is older than me, and I

25:19wanted to have some really great years

25:21together. Um, financially we looked at

25:24the numbers and felt like we could

25:25handle it. Um, but I also felt like

25:31as good of a job as I think I did and

25:33accomplishments I had, I felt like it

25:36was time for someone else to try. Um, I

25:39was tired of some of the situations that

25:42were not fixable by anybody. They

25:44weren't anyone's fault. They're just how

25:45it is now. I felt that there were more

25:48and more problems that came up um that

25:51there was no solution to which bugged me

25:53like you know I was like I I can't fix

25:57that. That's just I can't [laughter] fix

25:58that. Um and I don't think anybody could

26:01but at the same time it bugged me. Um

26:03that I couldn't and didn't think there

26:05was and I just thought, you know, um I

26:09think that someone else should take a

26:11look at this as well. But it was mostly

26:14I just wanted

26:17to be retired,

26:19be relaxing and and and do something

26:21else.

26:22>> That makes sense. Well, if there's

26:24nothing else, I think we can wrap it up.

26:26And I just want to say thank you again

26:28for sitting down and let me ask you some

26:29questions.