My Father Recruited Atiku Into Customs | Tinubu Is a Lion With Horns - Donald Duke Reveals History

0:00So, um, news broke yesterday that a

0:02former VP, Atiku Abubakar, a fellow

0:04contestant such as yourself, um, has

0:07come out to say

0:08um,

0:10he was going to remove fuel subsidy.

0:13What's your take on this?

0:16>> There's no subsidy. I don't believe

0:17there's any subsidy.

0:18>> That he was going to restore it, fuel

0:20subsidy. Rather.

0:21>> You can't restore that

0:24What what what what what would be fair?

0:26Because honestly, no one has really gone

0:27to the depth of it. Where is Where is

0:30this subsidy? If it's an engine Look,

0:33if human beings

0:35had control of oxygen,

0:38I mean, when you go to hospital and they

0:39give you oxygen, anything that God that

0:41you need to survive must be freely

0:43available and affordable. There's really

0:46no subsidy, but

0:47so if he made that statement, he belongs

0:49to the school of thought that believes

0:51there's a subsidy, but I can tell you

0:53because we did this This whole subsidy

0:54business started in Abacha's time and

0:56all that. Because he was He was a

0:58proponent.

0:59>> surprised that not many know that about

1:01your role in the Economic Council of

1:03Abacha. I'm really

1:04>> People think my life started as

1:05governor.

1:06>> Exactly.

1:06Exactly.

1:08>> We used to advise advise him, you cannot

1:12take your natural resource, process it

1:14abroad, and bring it back in. Meanwhile,

1:17you have the refineries

1:18>> that are not working. They're horrible.

1:19>> Right. So, a lot of That's where the

1:20money started coming in. Because nobody

1:23talks about the other byproducts. Are we

1:25selling it to mitigate the price? You

1:27know, we're not. We're selling, you

1:28know, "Oh, this is the cost of petrol."

1:29I'm giving it to Oh, it's it's more

1:31expensive in Cameroon. It's more

1:32expensive in Niger. They don't have what

1:34we have. And even if they had, we are

1:37using it as a catalyst

1:40for for development. So, if for

1:43instance,

1:44you're building a road between one

1:46community to the other, you may not

1:48charge uh, toll on the road because it

1:51creates

1:53productivity. Even if [clears throat]

1:54it's a farm road, it allows you to take

1:56So, let's not look at the things that

1:59contribute to the productivity in life

2:04as things that you've got to charge and

2:06make money. Not everything you make

2:08money off. It's It's a catalyst.

2:11>> I like the word catalyst. I like that

2:12word. Okay, so it's it's for you the

2:15issue of restoring subsidy doesn't even

2:17exist because from the beginning it's a

2:18scam. It never existed. Interesting.

2:21Okay, let's go to politics. Um

2:24Are you worried that the 2027 elections

2:26may be rigged against you?

2:28Do you have such fears?

2:28>> things. First of all,

2:30um

2:31we have the primaries behind us.

2:35Am I worried? Yes, I'm worried.

2:38Um I'm worried not in because I think

2:41it'll be rigged. I think the opposition

2:43will rig itself out Yeah, out of

2:45stupidity. I mean, you know, cheat me

2:47once,

2:49shame on you.

2:51Cheat me twice, shame on me, right? You

2:54lost it in '23 because you were

2:57factionalized. Look, the two main

3:00hedgehogs in

3:02in 2023, one was in in '18, one was

3:06running mate to the other.

3:08They split.

3:09They couldn't find a way of coming

3:10together.

3:12The entire opposition, whether you call

3:13it

3:14NNPC at the time, so you had Rabiu

3:17Kwankwaso, my friend, '99 said, you had

3:20Obi Obi is not our asset. Obi is 20 2006

3:23or something. Yeah, then you had them

3:25Atiku, President Atiku, Vice President

3:27Atiku, who is our asset also.

3:29Couldn't we just sit down?

3:31Only one person is going to be

3:32president. I'm not running this race

3:35because I believe I must be president.

3:37I'm running this race because I think

3:38the best ideas or ideas options should

3:41be put forward. Let's debate these

3:43things. Let's not just accept that, oh,

3:44because every pseudo economist

3:48and a lot of them propped up after

3:50SAP 2 1985. Structural adjustment. Yeah,

3:53structural adjustment. We shouldn't

3:55become we should liberalize our market.

3:58Those people have ruined the economy.

4:00Listen, if you and your house

4:03helps or supports start going to the

4:05same shops, there's something wrong

4:07somewhere, right? Water finds its level.

4:09Our level is West and Central Africa,

4:11sub-Saharan Africa. We can't compare

4:13ourselves with China, right? So, but the

4:15point here is that coming back to

4:18elections

4:19even if the

4:23APC did nothing,

4:25right? They're the party in power.

4:27If there's a problem on that day,

4:29the

4:30IG of police will not go to any of the

4:32contestants. He'll go to the president.

4:34So, everything is skewed in favor of

4:36incumbent. Respect that.

4:39The only way you can seriously charge

4:42tackle the incumbent is to come together

4:44to tackle him to have the force.

4:45Otherwise, you'll be fractionalized. So,

4:47I think when you talk of rigging, we're

4:49rigging it against ourselves without,

4:50you know, without because because of

4:53because of our ego, we need to come

4:54together. If you really want to take out

4:56Look, Bola Ahmed Tinubu is not the

4:58average politician,

5:00right?

5:00>> In the mold of

5:02Jonathan

5:02>> Well, you said it. I didn't say I didn't

5:03call anybody's name. All I know that he

5:06is not the

5:08politician, right?

5:10So, you don't go to fight a lion who who

5:13also has horns. No, now now listen this.

5:16Can you imagine a lion with a horn?

5:18>> Yes.

5:18>> Right? It's already a dangerous animal.

5:20Then you now give it a horn and you say

5:22go and fight it with knife and fork.

5:24You'll be the dinner. So,

5:26let's get real.

5:27>> Let me put you on the spot, Your

5:28Excellency.

5:29Um I've sat down here with surrogates of

5:31leading cand- contestants.

5:34There's this particular candidate that

5:36some of the surrogates are saying it's

5:37either him

5:39or nobody else. How do you What do you

5:41say to these people?

5:42>> You know, surrogates are like sycophants

5:43most of the time because if it's not

5:45him, that the surrogate that said it's

5:47either him or no, will run to the next

5:48person. We see it already happening

5:50today.

5:51You know, I don't want to call names,

5:52but there are people who were with

5:55Atiku, right? Today they're working for

5:59for Tinubu. So,

6:01no.

6:02A proper surrogate

6:05is your truth teller.

6:07Oga, this is what the people think.

6:10You sit around yourself. You ask

6:11yourself, opposition, what are

6:13objectives? If the objective is to

6:16replace APC, fine. That is a common

6:19objective of the opposition.

6:22There's a political order in Nigeria,

6:24north and south.

6:26Do we want to jettison

6:29that political order in order to achieve

6:32our objective,

6:33right?

6:34Yes or no?

6:36Who is the best person to achieve the

6:38objective? Those are the questions we

6:40should be asking ourselves, right? Not

6:43each one You see, so the egos are so

6:45large. Either me

6:47or let it go back to. So, what was the

6:49objective? The objective was must always

6:51be ahead of us. The tail cannot wag the

6:53dog.

6:55>> Let me put you on the spot again, Your

6:56Excellency. So,

6:58if you have the power to

7:00Of course, don't put yourself. Who would

7:02you recommend for others to rally

7:04around? Who Who has the best chances of

7:08putting of defeating Tinubu?

7:09>> That's the sad thing.

7:11We're talking about

7:13We don't talk of policies.

7:14Half of our conversation here

7:17I talked about health, how what you

7:19could do. I talked about education and

7:21all that.

7:22All they do is just abuse.

7:25So, when I don't know and you

7:28I wish there would be a presidential

7:29debate.

7:30I know it would it would be it would be

7:32called for, but I don't see the

7:34incumbent attending because he didn't

7:37attend the last one when he was a

7:39candidate. So, I don't see it happening,

7:41but it's difficult to say well, I'm

7:43going to support this fellow because

7:45what does he stand for, right?

7:48Um

7:50So,

7:51>> [laughter]

7:52>> we haven't seen their manifestos yet.

7:53So,

7:53>> Okay, let's go into a bit of history.

7:55And I must say when I read through your

7:57your bio, I was really mighty impressed,

7:59you know. Corona School. That's a

8:01Ajegunle boy, you know. A classic

8:03Ajegunle Corona School. And I actually

8:06>> You didn't grow up in Lagos?

8:07>> Yes, of course. I was born and about

8:09raised in but when I went to Lagos

8:11>> Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was where

8:12everything was happening.

8:13>> boy, exactly.

8:13>> Everything was happening in Lagos.

8:15I finished

8:16high school in Lagos. UI.

8:18>> Exactly. Loyola College. I went to

8:19Loyola College.

8:20>> All the intellectuals went to Igbobi

8:21College. They're all

8:23They're all gifted.

8:23>> Exactly. I thought you would go to KC or

8:25I see. But, you already mentioned why

8:27you didn't go there, you know.

8:28>> My admission was to KC, but

8:31school was to start on Monday. On

8:33Thursday, I was switched.

8:35>> [laughter]

8:35>> Anyway,

8:36your dad

8:38I mean, you you had like I said, you're

8:39an Ajegunle because you are highly

8:40privileged. So, that was the

8:41>> define Ajegunle.

8:42>> Your your dad was the second longest

8:45serving DG of the Nigerian Customs

8:47Service.

8:48>> He was the second indigenous

8:50>> Indigenous.

8:51>> but he's the longest serving.

8:52>> Serving. Okay. Okay. So, um

8:56Atiku Abubakar, former VP, and your dad

8:59worked together, right?

9:00>> My father recruited him.

9:02>> Oh, really?

9:03>> Wow.

9:03>> He'll always remain my senior brother.

9:05>> Wow. Okay, so

9:05>> And I've known him since I was 12 years

9:07old.

9:07>> This graduation is very important. So,

9:08you had fantastic relationship.

9:10>> Oh, yeah.

9:11>> And some even said

9:12>> We don't agree all the time.

9:13>> Just just so the excellency

9:14>> He's He's my uncle. Put it that way.

9:16>> Fantastic. Fantastic. So, is it correct

9:18to say that 1999 now you were going to

9:20be you were contesting for the

9:22ticket of PDP for governorship. Um John

9:25Odigie-Oyegun

9:26was also scoring off against you. And I

9:28think he was actually going to win, but

9:29then um Atiku stepped in, cleared the

9:32path, smoothed the way.

9:33>> 99.

9:33>> Yes, 99.

9:34>> no.

9:34>> And then financed by financed and did

9:36all of those.

9:37>> Let me Let me put it Let me

9:38>> One of those interesting stories.

9:39>> Yeah, quick one, quick one.

9:41John was actually the campaign manager

9:43for Ken Nnamani

9:44>> Mhm.

9:44>> in 1999.

9:45>> Wow.

9:46>> Um Leo was chairman of my campaign.

9:48>> Okay.

9:49>> And um Leo came up with a brilliant idea

9:51that the only way to Nnamani is

9:54take the brain away from his his his

9:56campaign organization, which was John.

9:58So, we offered him running mate,

9:59>> Wow.

10:00>> right? And he didn't trust us. So,

10:02>> You were running against Ken Nnamani?

10:03>> Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was it was it

10:05was a David It was a David and Goliath

10:07thing because Ken was the establishment

10:09man. All the guys emptying bowls of

10:11Joseph Wirat, all those people, Tony

10:13Muoh, Tony Ani, and all that, they were

10:15supporting him.

10:16We were the young Turks. We were like

10:18the right tiger army and all that. And

10:19it was exciting for us that we were in

10:20our 30s. So,

10:23um Leo said, you know, we need Obubra.

10:26It's very important. If you look at the

10:28calculation

10:28>> Population density and all that.

10:29>> And yes, we have a part of it, but we

10:31need to get at least two a quarter of

10:33the votes there.

10:35So, who is a strong person from Obubra?

10:37Of course, it was John Okafor. So, we

10:38went to him, offered him running mate,

10:40and all that. He wasn't He didn't trust

10:41us. So, he made us print posters with

10:43his face on it, everything, you

10:45[laughter] know.

10:47And to be fair to him,

10:49he's a very was a very hard working and

10:52dedicated person.

10:53Um of course, in office, he had already

10:56started seeing himself eventually from

10:58now. No problem with that.

11:00But in 2002, he started really nursing

11:02this thing. And I said and he seemed to

11:04be in competition with Leo. And I said,

11:07"John, look, I'm going to run in 2003.

11:09You guys are asking for inheritance

11:11before I die."

11:12>> [laughter]

11:13>> Allow me to die first.

11:14>> Let me die first. But it got so

11:16strenuous, right? Um

11:18they were backbiting each other. Um

11:22John was now holding putting together a

11:24call his own

11:25And he accused me of not

11:29taking a side, literally. And I said,

11:31"There are no sides to take because the

11:33elections we're talking about is

11:356 years ahead, right? And we don't even

11:39know if we'll be here tomorrow. So,

11:40relax. John, anything can happen." But

11:42John John was really boisterous. I

11:44Too much energy in that small body.

11:46So, um it wasn't working well for him,

11:49and he was going to run with me for my

11:50second term.

11:52Leo, at that time, had indicated that he

11:55was interested, but it was in passing.

11:58We were actually in a car. We're driving

12:00somewhere, and he said, "Uh Gov, you

12:02know,

12:02um

12:03I'm thinking of 2027." I said, "No

12:05problem. I won't be there, so I can't be

12:07there, you know."

12:08But John got so hung up on it and felt

12:11he wasn't being protected and left the

12:13party and joined

12:15uh a the other party.

12:17He He joined them, and I said, "You

12:23cannot remain my deputy.

12:25You How are you going to chair cabinet

12:27meeting?

12:28You are from another party. You want to

12:29You know work." So, I called the House

12:31of Assembly, explained this to him and

12:33all to them.

12:35Um he was eventually impeached.

12:37Um he tried to run in '23. He didn't

12:40make it. I think to be fair to him, he

12:42came back, and he apologized to me and

12:44all that that I wasn't the one that

12:45offended him. He just felt unprotected,

12:47and um but uh you know, unfortunately,

12:50he passed.

12:52>> So, what's this relationship between you

12:54and Atiku up to now?

12:56>> Very cordial. Very

12:57If I see him, I I give him his respect.

13:00I mean, he's I mean, you must give him

13:01something. You can't be running for an

13:03office for 30 years and you're still

13:04doing it. You must believe in your

13:06ability to get it done. He started

13:08running in in 1993.

13:10>> Fantastic. Exactly. Last question

13:11because we're we're

13:13In a book titled How to Win Elections in

13:15Nigeria by Segun Oke to you,

13:17you recounted how General Babangida

13:19uh

13:20said to

13:22um President Obasanjo that this guy

13:24cannot be cannot become president and

13:26all of those.

13:27Um is that correct? Because

13:28>> I didn't say they went somewhere.

13:29>> I'm retelling a story that was told to

13:33me.

13:33>> Okay, not that you heard you say that.

13:34>> not a witness.

13:36In that story, there were five people

13:39who could be witness to this event.

13:42Vice President Atiku, President

13:44Babangida,

13:45President Obasanjo, President

13:48Abdulsalami Abubakar and General Gusau.

13:51And the story was simple. It was

13:53President Obasanjo that told me.

13:56They approached them that what they call

13:57the G4.

13:58And this was 2003 and they said they

14:01weren't going to support him for so many

14:03reasons, one of which was that

14:05it difficult to sell Obasanjo to the

14:07north because the economy was on had had

14:10had dwindled under his run. They don't

14:12have any banks any longer. And I'm like

14:14So,

14:15um

14:16But you could see the high stakes of the

14:17politics at the time.

14:19So, it appeared, I think, to Vice

14:22President Atiku that those people were

14:25supporting him.

14:26But

14:27the way Obasanjo told me that, you know,

14:29there's a commonality between the other

14:30four. They were all military. They all

14:32fought in the civil war. They had a

14:34spirit of core. That camaraderie and a

14:36spirit of core and he was the odd man

14:39out,

14:40you know? And he said to me

14:43there was a time each one of us would

14:45sacrifice our life to to to to to save

14:50the life of

14:51that bond between military. And that's

14:54why And he was saying this, he said,

14:55"Look, that's why no matter even Abacha

14:59as much as he may have hated him, would

15:02not look him in the face and talk down

15:04with him,

15:04right? And Babangida would not do the

15:06same thing. But you don't belong to that

15:08culture. So, you he was an outlier

15:11trying to get involved in what he didn't

15:13understand. That's really But it was a

15:15story it was I was saying this.

15:17>> the the issue was that

15:19the not the story was like IBB said,

15:22"Oh, I forgot something in your office.

15:24>> Yeah. then you That actually happened.

15:26He took him back and said

15:27>> No no the point is that he he he

15:29followed everybody into that the

15:31anteroom.

15:32And then he told whatever. So the

15:34question was people are saying how did

15:36you hear what was said in the meeting

15:38that was told to you? So at least now

15:39you can clarify this. Your Excellency, I

15:40think we've come to the end of this.

15:42It's been a very reverting, highly

15:45exciting engagement and I hope we can

15:48actually do this.

15:49>> I see the media they

15:50they just want

15:52uh

15:52>> Okay, soundbites.

15:53>> Not just soundbites. They're they're

15:55looking you know when when when the

15:58likes of uh

16:00Sh- Channels and Channels

16:05they're looking for content.

16:06>> [laughter]

16:08>> No, we are not looking

16:08>> So when when they come to me, I put

16:10pressure. I say, "You're looking for

16:11content. You have an hour to fill,

16:13right?"

16:14I said I said I actually said to

16:16Channels once, I said, "Channels, you

16:17know you should be paying me for this."

16:19He laughed, you know.

16:20>> We we we we

16:21>> He said it's mutual that we give you

16:22publicity and we get content.

16:24>> [laughter]

16:25>> I mean you you've been paying

16:26>> But it's important we speak up. There

16:28are too many gaps in our history, you

16:30know, and um

16:32in a way I've been witness to a

16:35I've interacted with every leader of

16:38this country since Gowon.

16:40>> Wow.

16:41>> I've not I never I never interacted with

16:43the run C or Tafawa Balewa, but every

16:46leader of this country since Gowon until

16:49now I have interacted with them.

16:52And like I said at the onset of this

16:54program, I'm a student of history. I

16:56love history.

16:57>> In a minute, sir. Um

16:58tell us about Tinubu, your friend, your

17:00colleague and friend. Tell us 1 minute

17:02about him.

17:03>> Very interesting human being.

17:05Um

17:06>> The gaps in his ideology and all of

17:08those.

17:08>> I'm not competent to talk about those

17:10things.

17:11Um the Tinubu I know is someone who is a

17:13very determined person and who doesn't

17:15think within the box, right? But

17:19um

17:20And the box is not a negative but the

17:22but is that he's very focused on

17:26what he wants to achieve, right?

17:29Sometimes I disagree whether it's for

17:32the common good, right? Um he's been the

17:35most impactful governor of Lagos. And

17:38when they compare both of us, okay, you

17:40know, but in his own case, he didn't

17:42stop governing Lagos, right? He's still

17:45I would say still the administrator of

17:48Lagos State. He may not be governor but

17:50he's the administrator of Lagos State.

17:53Um so he could boast of continuity in

17:56Lagos even though sometimes it was

17:58checkered.

17:59But he's a very determined person and um

18:02he's focused on what he wants to attain

18:05and he plans for it. So I give him that

18:07respect. When it comes to When it comes

18:09to politics governance, I'm not sure I

18:12agree with his governance but I agree

18:14his politics. I mean if I had someone

18:16who could play that politics for me

18:17because I'm not cut of that cloth, I'll

18:19take advantage of it. I'm more

18:20interested in I see politics as a

18:22vehicle, right?

18:24To take you to a destination which is

18:27governance. And it's a useful vehicle

18:29because you can't govern a place when

18:31you have not when you do not understand

18:33their politics. And that's why the

18:34military there were gaps in their

18:36leadership because you bring someone

18:37from Sokoto to be governor of Cross

18:39River, he's only going to be focused on

18:41peace and security but development he

18:44doesn't understand it.