How Your Brain Perceives Love When You Have Autism

0:00What's going on?

0:01>> So my like I have like a kind of broad

0:02question and then we can go more into

0:03it. So how do people who are securely

0:05attached distinguish between platonic

0:08attraction and romantic attraction? How

0:09do they distinguish between what they're

0:10feeling for a specific

0:12>> How do they distinguish what they're

0:13feeling?

0:14>> Yeah.

0:14>> I I think they distinguish what they're

0:16feeling based on the quality of the

0:18feeling itself. So the core way to

0:20become securely attached is to have

0:23emotional mirroring during development.

0:26Angry or let's say I'm crying or I feel

0:28upset. My parents will come to me and

0:30they'll be like, "Oh my god, what did

0:32the baby or you it's so sad you left

0:34your little bear, panda, whatever. Did

0:37you forget it at school? Oh my god." So

0:40often times if you look across cultures

0:42isn't true of for every culture but for

0:44many cultures around the world you'll

0:46have exaggerated emotional reactions

0:48from adults. And when a child has an

0:50exaggerated season a exaggerated

0:52emotional reaction, they are feeling a

0:54thing they don't understand what they're

0:56feeling and then they see it in the face

0:58of of the parent. So the parent has an

1:00exaggerated reaction of sadness and then

1:03children tie these two things together

1:06and that's how they know, "Okay, this is

1:07what sad feels like." So they are able

1:10to identify their emotions. They know

1:12what they're feeling because they're

1:13taught what they're feeling. That's what

1:15makes someone securely attached. So then

1:17what happens is if they're in a platonic

1:19relationship, they will detect or the

1:21presence or absence of certain emotions.

1:24And when they're in a romantic

1:26relationship, they will detect or not

1:29the the presence or absence of other

1:31emotions. Love, attraction, playfulness,

1:34connection, chemistry, and some of that

1:37is like that they kind of they get you

1:39and you get them. There's a spark.

1:41There's a connection. Does that answer

1:42your question?

1:43>> Kind of. So so context I'm autistic so

1:45I'm pretty sure I have alexithymia.

1:46>> Okay.

1:47>> So for me I've had moments where I could

1:49be bonding with like my close friends

1:51and I'll sort of get those like thoughts

1:52of like, "Oh, am I in love with my

1:53friend?" Um cuz I'll get like a welling

1:55up of feeling but it's like I don't want

1:56to date my friend. I them but I don't

1:58want to date them. And this happens

1:59quite a lot with me and although I'm

2:01consciously aware I don't want to date

2:02them, it is still confusing as to it's

2:05still confusing for me going forward how

2:07to figure out if I have feelings for

2:09someone, if I don't cuz I know like

2:11technically you can develop feelings for

2:12someone that you're not compatible date

2:14and it's like for me who struggles with

2:15understanding emotions it's like I feel

2:17like I don't know how to embody the

2:18difference of those feelings. Does that

2:19make sense?

2:20>> It makes perfect sense. First thing is

2:21that you'll have relationships. These

2:23can be platonic or

2:25those aren't defined, right? But you'll

2:27have some sort of like literal

2:28connection with a person. And then in

2:30that connection feelings will arise and

2:33you're not quite sure how to interpret

2:35those. So there's a part of you that's

2:36kind of saying like hey, I don't want to

2:38date this person. And then you're kind

2:39of confused because maybe you have some

2:42feeling towards them that does feel like

2:44love.

2:44>> Yeah.

2:45>> Is that fair?

2:45>> Yes, exactly that.

2:46>> And then the way that you understand

2:48that is okay, sometimes human beings

2:51have feelings of love for people who are

2:54not appropriate to date, right? So it is

2:56possible that I am feeling love towards

2:58this person, even a romantic love and my

3:01head is telling me this is a bad idea.

3:04So it's possible to be in love and know

3:07it's a bad idea. But if you're autistic

3:10and alexithymic, how do you know if this

3:12is romantic love with your head telling

3:14you it's a bad idea or if this is some

3:17other kind of love and that's why your

3:18head is telling you it's a bad idea. Is

3:20that fair?

3:21>> Yeah, cuz I feel like from my

3:22understanding of like relationships and

3:24stuff, I feel like so many people their

3:26relation feelings are very clear to them

3:28or they interpret their feelings in a

3:29very clear way. But for me, no emotion

3:32feels quite clear.

3:33>> That is incredibly challenging. Being

3:35color blind to your internal emotional

3:37state makes navigating human

3:39relationships incredibly difficult. Have

3:41you had romantic relationship where you

3:44have been in love?

3:45>> Uh yeah, I've been in love three times

3:47in my life.

3:47>> And what were those experiences like if

3:49you're comfortable giving us sharing

3:52what that was like for you.

3:54>> Well, the sort of the overall trend I've

3:55noticed it when I'm in love with someone

3:57I tend to um I'm monogamous so I tend to

3:59desire exclusivity from them and then

4:00also the commitment piece. My first

4:01relationship was actually really

4:03challenging because we were both

4:04teenagers and the person I fell in love

4:06with was poly or wanted to be poly. So,

4:09me and him were dating but then we also

4:11opened up poly so that he could date

4:12other people. That eventually got too

4:13much for me because I was just jealous

4:15and I felt insecure. I wanted to be

4:17monogamous and closed. So, we eventually

4:18broke up. The second person after that

4:20>> Good for you.

4:20>> Thank you. The second person after that

4:22was a monogamous relationship I had with

4:24this girl. Was probably my healthiest

4:26relationship to this date. There was

4:27like no arguing. We got along really

4:29well. Long distance for context by the

4:31way. And then just about a year and a

4:33half in she just got depressed, fell out

4:35of love, and like we kind of split off

4:37from there.

4:37>> Ooh.

4:38>> Yeah.

4:39>> [laughter]

4:39>> Yeah, it wasn't easy at at the time. The

4:41third person I fell in love with was my

4:43first only unrequited love. So, I had

4:45made friends with this guy and I really

4:48quickly developed feelings for him. He

4:49didn't return the feelings. We tried to

4:51be friends. It just couldn't work cuz I

4:53was just really hurt basically.

4:55>> Sure. Loneliness is at an all-time high.

4:57Sexlessness is at an all-time high.

4:59Relationships are probably in the worst

5:01state they've ever been in the history

5:03of humanity. And that's why I [music]

5:04made Dr. K's Guide to Love, Sex, and

5:06Relationships. Let's talk about who you

5:08should actually date. Falling in love is

5:11sometimes one of the biggest mistakes

5:12[music] that you can make. You know, I

5:13started to do a lot of research about

5:15how to have like really good sex.

5:17[music]

5:18Visit healthygamer.gg/guide

5:20to learn more. Good luck out there,

5:22Y'all are going to need

5:23it.

5:24Okay, so that that's really interesting.

5:26So, so then here's my question. So, you

5:28seem to understand quite well that there

5:30are times that you've been in love with

5:32people. What is the feeling that you

5:33don't understand? Cuz it sounds like

5:35you've had three times that you felt in

5:37love. So, so if if you have three

5:38examples of being in love and you know

5:41what that feels like, is there still

5:42some difficulty translating that over to

5:46other connections?

5:48>> Yeah.

5:48>> Because you can't tell if those two

5:49things are the same?

5:50>> Yeah. Situation I was in that kind of

5:52inspired this question is um last year I

5:54was friends with benefits with this guy

5:55for a couple of months. And because we

5:57were friends with benefits, there was a

5:58little of like just emotional support,

5:59emotional intimacy.

6:00>> Sure. Sure.

6:01>> During that, I started getting thoughts

6:03of like, do I have feelings for him? Do

6:04I want to be with him? And it got really

6:05distressing cuz I was I went in it I

6:07went into it with the intention of only

6:09being friends. So even the thought that

6:10I could have different feelings stressed

6:13me out.

6:13>> that is going to be confusing even if

6:16you're not alexithymic or autistic. Have

6:19you seen our um video about uh friends

6:22with benefits?

6:23>> I have not.

6:23>> So this actually makes a lot more sense

6:25now to me anyway, but I I have a clarity

6:27on it. So I think the reason that that

6:29can be particularly confusing is because

6:31romantic love and the kind of catching

6:34feelings for someone that you're in a

6:35situationship with are actually like

6:37qualitatively different from a

6:38neuroscience perspective. So when you

6:40start engaging in sexual a sexual

6:42relationship with someone, certain

6:44hormones will turn on like number one is

6:46of which is oxytocin. So when you were

6:49in a situationship with this person,

6:51would you guys cuddle, hold hands, or

6:53spend the night?

6:54>> Cuddle, yes. Hold hands, kind of. Spend

6:56the night, no, but we had fallen asleep

6:58together like once.

6:59>> Yeah. So so when you do those things,

7:01that will activate a certain form of

7:04emotional bonding, right? So when

7:06there's sexual activity and there's

7:08emotional bonding, that becomes like

7:10more difficult to navigate and more

7:13difficult to understand. So you may not

7:15have had that kind of dopaminergic So

7:17the the feeling of falling in love is

7:19highly mediated by dopamine, right? So

7:21we feel intoxicated, we have cravings

7:24for these people, there's a lot of

7:25behavioral reinforcement.

7:27of that warm, cuddly, emotional bonding

7:31love is mediated by oxytocin. So

7:33probably part of the challenge here in

7:35this situation is that you had some of

7:37the love signals going on in your brain,

7:40but you may not have had all of them,

7:42but some of them are the love signals.

7:44Right, so love is not homogeneous.

7:46Whereas usually what happens with with

7:48human beings is when we fall in love

7:50with someone, we crave them, we pursue

7:52them, then we engage in a physical

7:54relationship, then we end up cuddling.

7:56So then all the signals come together,

7:59and that's what we call love.

8:00>> Okay.

8:01>> I don't know how helpful that is to you.

8:03>> So when you say love you mean like love

8:04broadly or like the specific romantic

8:06love we're talking about?

8:07>> The romantic love, right? So so what I'm

8:08talking about is falling head over heels

8:11for someone. And and so if we think

8:12about, you know, you're asking how do

8:14they know if it's platonic love or

8:16romantic love? And what I'm saying is

8:18that romantic love is composed of

8:20several pieces. And and this literally

8:22is is because you're you're it sounds

8:25like you're on the spectrum, I'm going

8:26to define those pieces for you. Is that

8:28okay? Would that be helpful for you?

8:29>> So helpful.

8:30>> Okay, let's define let's I'm going to

8:32just define what love is, okay? So we

8:35can start with the Greeks. The Greeks

8:37notice there's different kinds of love.

8:38So there's eros love, which is like

8:40being losing some of these terms, but

8:43they're sort of like what we call

8:44classically being in love, right? So

8:47we're consumed by someone. You can also

8:48call this passion. There's a lot of

8:50passion between us. Then there is also

8:53like a friendly playful kind of love. So

8:56there's like passion like like I want

8:58your body and I want you to have my body

9:00and like you complete me and I complete

9:01you. And then there's the playfulness.

9:04There's like the laying in bed naked and

9:07and covering things and not covering

9:09things and then poking and not poking

9:11and then tickling and like that's

9:13different from passion. There's a

9:15playful kind of love with tickling. Then

9:17there is emotional bonding, right? So

9:20this is not passion, this is like you

9:23and I are bonded. We we have a bond, we

9:25we we have common cause, we're in it

9:28together, like two people in a trench in

9:31World War II and we're in it together.

9:33There's also a love that is sacrificial,

9:36okay? So this is like, you know, when

9:38you're in love like when you have your

9:39partner, it's like you would take a

9:41bullet for them. You will stay up all

9:42night for them. You would do this. You

9:44would do that. Your love manifests as

9:46sacrifice, right? I would do anything

9:48for this person. That is different from

9:50like you complete me and I'm tickling

9:53you after we're laying in bed naked

9:55together. When we have a committed

9:57romantic relationship, often times all

9:59of these things are happening together.

10:02And the reason that people don't last is

10:05that they are not able to transition and

10:08get these additional types of love. So,

10:10if there is passion, we're fine for the

10:12first couple of months. When we add

10:14playfulness to it, we're good for a

10:16couple of years, but we're not willing

10:18to sacrifice. So, I have my career, you

10:21have your career. I'm not willing to

10:23sacrifice for you, so the relationship

10:24we parted ways amicably. It was intense.

10:27It was lovely. We were bonded. It was

10:29real love, but that sacrifice is not

10:30there. That's why a relationship falls

10:32apart. Other times, there is sacrifice.

10:34There was passion. The passion gets

10:36extinguished. Now, the passion is gone.

10:38Now, the playfulness is gone. Now, we

10:40have two kids at home. No one's

10:42sleeping. My hours are getting cut.

10:44You're not able to work anymore. So, now

10:46we're like ground down. So, there's

10:48sacrifice and there's commitment, but

10:50there's no joy. I just can't do this

10:52anymore. I love you, but I can't do this

10:54anymore. Right? We can listen to the

10:56reasons why people break up and track

10:59them back to failures of these different

11:01kinds of love. And then there is loss of

11:04passion with sacrifice, but the

11:06playfulness is still there, right? And

11:08sometimes that can sustain us. When now

11:10I've got I've got postpartum depression.

11:12I've got postpartum problems with my

11:14hormones, so my libido is absolutely

11:16gone, but there is enough emotion, there

11:19is enough sacrifice, and there is enough

11:21playfulness to where we can stay

11:23connected. That survives the the

11:25postpartum depressive libido crash. Two

11:29years later things come back. And when

11:31they come back, they come back real

11:33good. Right? So, these are the when when

11:34you say how does someone know what love

11:36feels like? This is where people with

11:38secure attachment do have an advantage

11:40on feeling, but love is more complex.

11:42This is why not everyone who is in love

11:45and dates for 1 year and is good

11:47together stays together because they

11:49cannot graduate into these additional

11:51kinds of love. And you kind of need it

11:53all. Then there's a neuroscience layer

11:56on top of this where passionate love is

11:58mediated by dopamine. It's an addiction.

12:00Emotional bonding is mediated by

12:03oxytocin. Feeling comfortable with

12:05someone is mediated by serotonin. I was

12:07talking to someone recently who who is

12:09was really happy with their current

12:11partner and and I asked, you know, what

12:13do you really like about them? And they

12:14said, this is the first person I've

12:15dated in a long time that I don't feel

12:17anxious around. I just feel soothed when

12:20they're around. That is serotonin. Mood,

12:22anxiety reduction, mood elevation, and

12:25anxiety reduction. I just feel good

12:27around them. It's not passion, not

12:29physical attractiveness, not even

12:30emotional bonding. This is a

12:32serotonergic love. So, these these

12:34things don't map on one-to-one because a

12:36neurotransmitter is just a chemical

12:38signal in the brain. Dopamine also does

12:40smooth movement, right? So, instead of

12:41cogwheel rigidity, which is what we see.

12:43So, dopamine does way more. But I think

12:45when it comes to like, you know, you

12:47catching feelings for someone in a

12:48situationship, yeah, that's because some

12:50of these neurotransmitters are coming

12:52on, but there there's physical

12:53attraction, there's some amount of

12:56serotonin, but there may not be

12:57dopamine, right? It could be more like,

12:59I'm frisky and you're frisky. Let's just

13:01kind of like get our physical needs met.

13:04And then oxytocin kicks in. Does that

13:05make sense?

13:06>> Yeah, that does.

13:07>> Yeah, so one thing that I just want to

13:08appreciate about your question is when I

13:11work with people who are on the

13:12spectrum, it requires me to stretch into

13:17explaining things. And I think the stuff

13:20that comes out of my mouth when I work

13:22with people on the spectrum is some of

13:24the best stuff that my brain can

13:25produce. And there's something about the

13:27way that people on the spectrum ask

13:28questions that requires us to really

13:31tunnel down and define and explain each

13:35of these elements. And I know it's hard

13:37for you. It sucks. At the same

13:39time, I think that I am a better

13:42psychiatrist because of people like you.

13:45And I think that the answer that I gave

13:47just now is maybe one of the best

13:49answers I will ever give on love on

13:52stream. So, thank you for your question.

13:54I'm not saying we're done. But, I just

13:56want to thank you for that.

13:57>> Well, of course, thank you for answering

13:58it. It honestly made my day hearing

13:59that. Um okay, so what I'm what my

14:02little autistic mind is understanding is

14:03just that there are all these different

14:04components to love. It's not just one

14:06thing. So, you can have some turned on,

14:08some turned off, and that's why emotions

14:10can get kind of confusing, basically.

14:12>> So, the confusion comes because you have

14:14like not mixed signals, but you have

14:16incomplete signals.

14:17>> [clears throat]

14:17>> You've been in love three times, and

14:19those three times you probably had some

14:21version of all of these. But, now what's

14:23happening with friends with benefits is

14:24you've got like two out of four, if

14:25you've got three out of four. And then

14:27you're like, "What is this?" And and by

14:28the way, you know, people who are

14:30neurotypical are also hella confused by

14:33situationships. So, you're you're not

14:34alone there.

14:35>> I so I've been told.

14:36>> Yeah.

14:37>> I guess the last thing on this is like,

14:38so going forward, if I'm ever in this

14:40situation again, not a situationship per

14:41se, but trying to understand my

14:42feelings, really just asking those kind

14:45of questions to myself like, "What

14:46signal's being hit here? Which ones

14:48aren't?" Sort of analysis, or is that

14:50like overthinking?

14:51>> I think it is it is overthinking and it

14:53is necessary if you are alexithymic.

14:56>> Okay.

14:56>> Right? So, the four questions I would

14:58ask yourself going forward is do I crave

15:00this person? Do I feel connected to this

15:02person? Does this person elevate my mood

15:05and lower my anxiety? And would I be

15:08willing to take a bullet for this

15:09person? Right? And if the answer to all

15:11of all four of those questions is yes,

15:13that is probably the best back of the

15:16napkin equation for whether you know

15:18whether you're in love. In love is just

15:20dopamine, but whether there is a there

15:22is a sustainable

15:24complete sense of love.

15:26>> Okay, that makes a lot of sense.

15:27>> Yeah, thank you so much for coming.

15:28>> Yeah, thank you.

15:29>> Take care.