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Roger Penrose and Brian Cox on the Big Bang, the multiverse and physics' greatest lesson | Q&A

The Institute of Art and Ideas · 2,619 words · 12 min read

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0:00Some advice for a future Nobel Prize

0:02winner.

0:02>> Oh, gosh.

0:04The trouble is when people ask me this

0:05sort of question, I say the most

0:07important thing that I find when I look

0:09back at my life and the great sort of

0:12good ideas I've had from time to time,

0:14the best thing to be is lucky.

0:18I couldn't share an office with anybody,

0:20but it happened to be with Engelbart.

0:22>> [music]

0:22>> And it was two things I learned from him

0:24that I happened to put together, and

0:26they were really important in later

0:27life.

In your Conformal cyclic cosmology theory, what kicks off and ends the chain of aeons?

0:35>> Hello. Uh thank you very much for this

0:36talk. My name is Daniel Hermel. Um I'm

0:39just wondering uh in your theory

0:42um what happens at what kicks off this

0:45chain of eons, and what ends this chain

0:48of eons, or is that the wrong question?

0:49>> No, it's good to say call it chain of

0:51eons, it's fine.

0:52Well, you see, there needn't be

0:54anything.

0:55Maybe it keeps on going forever.

0:58I don't know. I have no answer to that

0:59question. But it's perfectly reasonable

1:02within this picture to say this chain is

1:05just eternal.

1:06There is no beginning, there will be no

1:08end.

1:09>> What what's the what's the um how do you

1:12dodge We talked about Stephen's

1:14singularity theorem based on your

1:16singularity theorem earlier. What how

1:19does how is that dodged? What why does

1:21there not have to be a singularity in

1:23our past?

1:24>> Well, you see, the singularities

1:27that particular one, you see, is only

1:30You have to distinguish the ones in

1:31black holes.

1:33Because the singularities in black holes

1:35basically

1:38uh irrelevant in the sense that they're

1:40in the black holes.

1:42The black holes evaporate away. Okay,

1:45there might be a little tiny singularity

1:48when the black hole goes pop at the end.

1:51But that's so tiny. I mean, it all gets

1:53a bit of a pop, it might not be good to

1:55be too close to that pop. But

1:58But it's not

1:58>> It's quite a big pop, isn't it?

2:00>> Yes.

2:00Um

2:01well, depends on

2:03>> [laughter]

2:03>> what kind of scale you're using. It's

2:04been a nasty one to go off in this room,

2:06that's true.

2:07>> Yeah.

2:07>> But um

2:09but it's a pop on the sort of

2:11cosmic scale. Yeah.

2:12But um

2:14it's not important from this point of

2:16view. There is a different It's a

2:18interesting question.

2:20And it's not even clear they happen. You

2:22see, that does depend on the

2:23on the uh Hawking evaporation, which I

2:26do believe in. I think it's correct. But

2:29you could take a negative view to

2:31Hawking evaporation and say that it

2:32doesn't really happen.

2:34There's no direct evidence for it.

2:36It's just the theoretical evidence. I

2:38think the theory is pretty good. I think

2:40it does. I agree with Hawking that there

2:41should be that radiation. But it doesn't

2:44come in

2:45until Well, look, think about the

2:47the temperature. You see, there's a

2:49Hawking temperature to a black hole,

2:51which is ridiculously cold.

2:53The bigger the black hole, the colder is

2:56this ridiculous Hawking temperature.

2:59Okay, we're talking about black holes

3:00which are much bigger than any we've

3:02ever observed. I mean, already now

3:05most of the material in the universe is

3:07in black holes.

3:09They're pretty big, but they're trivial

3:11but compared with these things start

3:13swallowing each other up and the whole

3:15galac- galactic clusters form these huge

3:18black holes.

3:20And they sit around and they sit around

3:22and they sit around.

3:24And that Hawking temperature is

3:27ridiculously cold, much colder than the

3:29temperature in the universe. And it sits

3:31there and it waits and it waits and it

3:33waits until the temperature of the

3:36universe gets colder and colder and

3:38colder until it's colder than that

3:41ridiculously cold temperature of the

3:42black hole. And then it starts to

3:44radiate away and radiate away for

3:47something like 10 to the hundred years.

3:50Think of one followed a hundred zeros

3:54that number of years.

3:56More than that, actually, before this

3:58effect kicks in.

4:00Pretty long time.

4:02>> [laughter]

4:03>> But that is the argument that after that

4:05length of time, the Hawking evaporation

4:08takes it to black holes where and

4:09they're gone after that time.

4:11It doesn't make much difference whether

4:13that's right or wrong in my picture.

4:16I mean, it's just true. I wrote a paper

4:17with some Hungarian uh

4:20Polish, I should say, Polish colleagues

4:23where we talk about what we call Hawking

4:24points.

4:26And these are these little points coming

4:28through from the previous eon.

4:30And they're the spots.

4:32We call them Hawking points because they

4:33probably are the Hawking radiation. So

4:36late, but they're little tiny points.

4:39And then by the time you see them, they

4:40spread out to about

4:43Well, I'm forgetting if it's 4° or 8°

4:45across in the sky. So, it's a little

4:47little spot in the sky. Not all that

4:49small, actually.

4:51It's bigger than the full moon.

4:53>> So, another observable prediction in the

4:55cosmic microwave background.

4:56>> Oh, yeah, but they've been seen.

4:57>> Undoubtable feature.

4:57>> We've seen them.

4:59With a 99.84%

5:02confidence level.

5:03Nobody believes us, of course.

5:05>> [laughter]

5:06>> No, well, in particle physics, that's

5:08not good enough, is it? 99%

5:10>> [laughter]

5:10>> But in cosmology, that's pretty good.

5:14>> All right. We have another question.

5:16There's one right at the front here.

5:18I'm going to do that thing where I make

5:20I guess one at the front, one at the

5:21back, one at the front, one at the back,

5:22and you have to

5:24do a lot of exercise.

What triggers the next aeon?

5:26>> Um I was just wondering,

5:27um so

5:29what triggers the Big Bang when

5:32everything's

5:34photons just floating around and and

5:36gravitational waves? What actually

5:38triggers that?

5:39>> Well, the infinity, you see. That's

5:41right. I mean, it's a good question to

5:43ask, and people do ask that question.

5:45What is it that triggers the next eon

5:47Come on. Well, it's a good place to to

5:49trigger it because it's infinity. You

5:51see

5:53You see, I'm in I'm a bit biased here

5:56because a lot of what I used to do in

5:57cosmology and general relativity was

6:00applying a a nice little trick

6:03which was to talk about infinity

6:06from the conformal picture. You see, you

6:08can draw a nice picture of infinity and

6:10I used to draw these pictures. They're

6:11called tend to be called Penrose

6:13diagrams for some reason. But anyway, I

6:15draw these little pictures. Infinity,

6:17you can draw it. It's a nice place. It's

6:19a

6:20And it joins on to something else and it

6:22might be joining the future of somebody

6:23else's past infinity or something.

6:26But in these little pictures, it joins

6:28on to the Big Bang.

6:29And you can't say when it is. Well,

6:31yeah, it was infinity, but infinity

6:33isn't that far off really because

6:36you have to think of how do you you have

6:38a clock who's saying this is my clock

6:40say how long is infinity? Well, the

6:41clock

6:42it depends on mass because

6:45clocks depend on mass being there. If

6:47you didn't have any mass, you wouldn't

6:49have any clocks.

6:50So, if the mass sort of fades out

6:53you don't have any clocks.

6:55So, infinity isn't that far along.

6:57That's not so far off.

6:58I mean, it's a bit of a stupid thing to

7:00say, I agree. But

7:02But But it's it's the picture. You have

7:04to get used to it.

7:06And I have got used to it by playing

7:07around with these things such a long

7:09time that I don't think infinity is that

7:11far off, you see. Cuz you draw pictures

7:13and it's a good thing to talk about and

7:15I just as good a place as singularities

7:18really. Would another way of phrasing it

7:20be to say how does mass return? So, how

7:23do the clocks return? Yes, you do need

7:25the mass.

7:27The mass fades in a way. It has to come

7:30back. That's quite right.

7:32And that needs a good theory of mass and

7:35we don't have a good theory.

7:37You see

7:38there's not really a good theory.

7:42I think I used to have a slightly

7:44different argument for that than I do

7:45now.

7:47You see,

7:50I used to think that particle physics

7:52was important in this what I call the

7:54crossover from one eon to the next. And

7:57I wrote a book

7:58called Cycles of Time.

8:01And I was quite flattered because a lot

8:02of Chinese people wanted to buy Chinese

8:04translation of this book. I wouldn't

8:06going to say don't read it.

8:09What I should say is don't read any of

8:11the appendices. Read the book, that's

8:13fine, but don't read any of the

8:15appendices. They're all wrong.

8:19Well, not so much that they're all

8:20wrong, but they're all irrelevant.

8:23Because I tried to think in particle

8:25physics,

8:26how do you try to make the mass

8:28disappear? I'm just your question here.

8:30But my view is no, that's the wrong way

8:32of thinking about it. Particle physics

8:34doesn't come in

8:35until much later.

8:37But the crossover from one eon to the

8:39next is is driven

8:42by gravitational radiation. That is the

8:44main thing which gets through from one

8:46to the side to the other.

8:48There are certain other things which get

8:50through.

8:51Photons get through as long as they're

8:53big enough wavelength. So,

8:55magnetic fields get through.

8:58Broad enough

9:00electromagnetic photons, ordinary light

9:03wouldn't. They would get scattered cuz

9:04when they get to the other side, they

9:06the the there's so much

9:08temperature, so enormous that they just

9:10scatter all over the place. They don't

9:12but the energy will get through.

9:14The gravitational waves get through.

9:17The general energy

9:19of a of a galactic cluster as it makes a

9:22little point and comes through. Then

9:23what we see this points,

9:25and I say that with my Polish

9:27colleagues,

9:29and we have a paper on this which people

9:31don't seem to pay much attention to.

9:33>> [laughter]

9:35>> Uh

9:36what what do we go right to the back for

9:38I was [laughter] you went to the back

9:40yeah. So someone right in the back

9:41corner cuz back corners never get a

9:43question, do they?

Do you believe in the multiverse?

9:45>> Can you hear me? Do you believe in the

9:47multiverse?

9:49>> I suppose that you might be which one is

9:51>> It's a good It's a good question. If I

9:53can remember what the multiverse is. You

9:55see the multiverse is that you got lots

9:56of different universes sitting around.

9:58And I think people like it because they

10:00want might say in some of them you got

10:02different constants of nature. And our

10:04particular one has certain values for

10:06the constants of nature. I mean very

10:08fundamental things like

10:10Well, I won't say what they're like, but

10:11they're a particular numbers which are a

10:13bit mysterious. Dirac points out these

10:15things are in his early

10:17stages of this discussion.

10:19And yeah, there's some very puzzles

10:21about where these numbers come from. You

10:22might say there are different universes

10:24which have different numbers. I don't

10:25know about that.

10:27Is the multiverse where you say there

10:28are all these different sort of parallel

10:30universes sitting around like this?

10:32That's not my picture. I don't know

10:34whether they're around or not. I don't

10:36like them very much. I prefer them this

10:39way rather than that way if you like.

10:41When I say this way, I mean in the

10:42temporal direction

10:44they keep on going. In the spatial

10:47direction, no, I don't see why you need

10:49other ones.

10:50My tentative view, and this is just

10:52speculation, I don't really know,

10:54there really is probably a good theory

10:57for why the numbers have to be why they

10:59are. And that there is some deep piece

11:02of mathematics hiding there which we

11:04don't know yet. Which tells us why these

11:07strange numbers that we find in physics

11:09have to have the values they have.

11:11>> So that would be the weakness of

11:12gravity.

11:13>> That's one of them. Yes. To say why do

11:15we have such a small

11:17See, gravity is weak when you're talking

11:19about small things and you're putting

11:20power, but when you have big things it

11:22dominates.

11:24And it's not just gravity, it's that

11:25other part. It's the lambda. It's the

11:28thing that people

11:29the dark people call dark energy.

11:31Dreadful term. But they call it dark

11:33energy. I just call it the cosmological

11:36constant. I mean, that's the term in

11:37Einstein.

11:38>> Okay, we've got time for one more

11:39question. Yeah, just one more one more

11:41one right in the middle. Why don't we do

11:43one right in the middle cuz I haven't

11:44done anything in the middle.

11:46Yeah, and

11:47>> Someone in the gallery stood in the

11:48middle, no?

11:51>> Who else could possibly be coming on?

11:54>> [laughter]

11:58>> Yeah.

11:59>> [laughter]

What was the most important thing that you learnt in physics?

12:03>> Uh I I'm a student and I just wanted to

12:06ask like

12:07um what was the most important thing you

12:10learned in physics that helped you gain

12:14the Nobel Prize?

12:16>> [laughter]

12:18>> Some advice for a future Nobel Prize

12:20winner.

12:20>> Oh gosh.

12:22The trouble is like people ask me this

12:23sort of question. I say, the most

12:25important thing that I find when I look

12:27back in my life with the great sort of

12:30good ideas from time the best thing to

12:33be is lucky.

12:35It's not much use to tell people that be

12:38lucky. That doesn't help.

12:40But I realized that a lot of things

12:41which were very important and came

12:43together because of things which I'd

12:44learned at different times in my stages.

12:47I shared an office with Engelbert

12:49Schucking and I learned various things

12:51from him. He was a great figure. He He

12:53knew uh

12:55He was a very

12:56important role in my life cuz he knew

12:58everything. That was important that He

13:00knew everything and everybody. He was

13:02also quite original which was unusual.

13:04People who know everything and everybody

13:06don't usually do original things, but he

13:08was good in that respect. His original

13:10ideas weren't all that great, I have to

13:11say.

13:13But he was a great person to have shared

13:15an office with.

13:16I could have shared an office with

13:17anybody, but it happened to be with

13:19Engelbert.

13:20And it was two things I learned from his

13:23that I happened to put together and they

13:24were really important in later life. I

13:27wouldn't have known that otherwise if I

13:28hadn't shared this often

13:30office with Engelbart.

13:32How do I tell people to share their

13:34office with the right person?

13:36That's not much of a piece of advice,

13:38isn't it?

13:39I think that perhaps is a important role

13:41here is not is to be

13:44respectful. You see, you have to be deep

13:47and broad at the same time.

13:50In your specialist area, you have to go

13:52deep. So, you have to

13:54learn a lot about what your particular

13:56area is and learn what's going on, what

13:58other people have been doing, and go

14:00deep into that. But, at the same time,

14:03keep an eye on the breadth of it. So, I

14:05like to think of this sort of funnel

14:07that goes out like this.

14:08So, you keep your eye on other topics

14:12and learn don't be

14:14too single-minded.

14:16Be

14:19Keep keep keep an eye open on what's

14:21going on outside your particular topic

14:23as well as being deep at the same time.

14:25It's difficult to do, but

14:27that's perhaps the best advice I can

14:28give.

14:30>> I think that's a a wonderful place to

14:32finish. So, please thank Roger Penrose.

14:35>> [applause]

14:39[applause]

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