I Was Chasing God, but I Was Following the Wrong Spirit | Melissa Dougherty|Jesus People Podcast E85

0:00There's people in the Christian space

0:02that are illegally accessing demons. And

0:04that sounds a lot like Satanism to me.

0:06>> It's the serpent's lie.

0:07>> Um and I totally fell into it.

0:09>> So, when you say Christ consciousness,

0:11what does that mean?

0:12>> So, the other way to understand new

0:14thought as opposed to new age is

0:16new thought looks Christian, but it's

0:18metaphysical Christianity. That

0:21metaphysical part is very important.

0:23>> And what does metaphysical mean?

0:24>> Good question. It's beyond the physical

0:26is what they'd say. But what that really

0:27means is what I just said. It's like

0:28Christianity on steroids. There's a

0:31lust.

0:32That's the word I'll use. A lust for

0:35power and the supernatural.

0:37>> How do you know if what you're hearing

0:39is from the Lord?

0:44>> Guys, welcome to the Jesus People

0:45podcast. We have the honor of having

0:47Melissa Dougherty on today. This is

0:48going to be an interesting one. Thank

0:50you so much for being with us.

0:51>> Yeah, thanks for having me.

0:52>> Yeah, so we we were just chatting. There

0:53were so many times where we're hanging

0:55in the kitchen before this and I'm like,

0:56"Stop talking."

0:57>> Stop it. Quit sharing stuff.

0:58>> You like talking [laughter] to my wife.

0:59I'm like, "Babe, sorry. I know this is

1:00interesting saving for your podcast."

1:02>> you know, away with a baby. But yeah, I

1:04I get it. Yeah.

1:05>> She can watch it later.

1:07>> She can watch it later, exactly.

1:08>> You know what's so funny is like what

1:10Sometimes at night me and Annie will

1:11watch my podcasts when they drop and I'm

1:14like, "Ooh, that was good." But I was so

1:16in it in the moment, I don't remember

1:17what was said. And so yeah, it'll be fun

1:19to watch this back with you later. So,

1:21um where you from? Tell tell me about

1:23your background. You got kids?

1:25>> Yeah.

1:26>> Married? All that?

1:27>> Yeah, I'm from New Mexico. Um right next

1:29door. And I've been married for 18 going

1:32on 19 years.

1:33>> Which is crazy.

1:34>> I know.

1:34>> You like This is not

1:36Not to hype you up, but there's no

1:38chance that you're old enough to be

1:41married for 18 years. That's

1:42>> 18 years with a 15-year-old and

1:4311-year-old.

1:44>> Goodness.

1:45>> Yeah. We're just happy. We're just happy

1:47people. Stay in your word, drink lots of

1:49water. What can I say?

1:50>> All right. Well, I got it. I got it on

1:52hand.

1:53>> Yeah, man. You're like putting stuff in

1:54your water over there. You take care of

1:55yourself. You're just supplements and

1:57stuff.

1:57>> we got Dr. Lake

1:58>> on. Dr. Lake's been hooking me up, so.

2:00>> Yeah.

2:00>> Give me the wisdom.

2:01>> Uh but yeah, that's kind of my

2:04where I'm from and my family life.

2:06>> Cool.

2:07>> Yeah.

2:08>> And um you're on social media. You're on

2:10YouTube. You're making content. That's

2:12um it's not new age. What's the term for

2:14it?

2:14>> New thought.

2:15>> New thought.

2:15>> both.

2:16>> Right.

2:16>> Anything that's weird, wiggedy whack

2:18belief, I just love to look into. Um

2:22even things like I don't know. I see a

2:24lot of people maybe not

2:26talking about other

2:29in your face issues. Like for example,

2:31furry fandom.

2:32>> Mhm.

2:33>> A lot of people don't actually talk

2:34about furry fandom. But our kids

2:36>> You

2:36>> especially online are like really into

2:39furries. And I'm like, what is

2:40happening? What is this? And so it's

2:42things like that I'll look into. Um

2:43occultic stuff, new age, and my my

2:46personal lane, yes, is new thought.

2:48>> Mhm.

2:48>> Which is not the same as new age. That's

2:50what I wrote my book about.

2:51>> Explain. What's the difference?

2:52>> Yeah, this is like the number one

2:53question people ask. Um I've always said

2:55that I'm an ex-new ager.

2:57>> Mhm.

2:57>> Uh I became a Christian at 16. And that

3:00was a phenomenal experience. To this

3:02day, like the best experience of my life

3:03was when I became a Christian because I

3:05was just in a real dark place.

3:07Um and I had a friend at a party of all

3:10places. I mean, he was drinking. But I

3:12mean, hey, I heard the gospel and I

3:14believed him. And I woke up the next day

3:17and it was just like the sun was

3:18different.

3:19>> Mhm.

3:19>> Smells smelled different. Yeah, you know

3:21what I mean?

3:22>> Yeah.

3:22>> Um I had different

3:25uh

3:26wants, right? Like I didn't want to eat

3:28garbage anymore. I wanted to eat better.

3:30Um I had different thoughts.

3:32I felt like I was like in a Disney

3:34movie, you know?

3:35Pre-woke. Pre-woke Disney.

3:37Um and it was just

3:38>> Which is Disney

3:40just just

3:40>> [laughter]

3:40>> just Disney.

3:41>> Yes. Yeah, it was just it was great. Um

3:44but I had this insatiable hunger to know

3:45more. I wanted to know the Bible.

3:48And I

3:49fell into a problem at that point

3:51because I had all these questions and I

3:54was struggling with all these things. Uh

3:57What's up with this passage in the

3:59Bible? I don't quite understand it. Uh

4:01tell me about the violence in the Old

4:02Testament. I don't like that. Why is

4:04that there? Uh hard questions that I

4:07think every Christian has asked for

4:08hundreds of years and I kind of hit a

4:10wall there.

4:11And

4:12so I ended up supplementing my

4:15[clears throat] spirituality with the

4:16spirituality I'd grown up with thinking

4:18it was Christian. That's very important.

4:21I grew up [clears throat] with a lot of

4:23things being taught to me that Jesus had

4:25taught us. Like we could speak things

4:27into existence. We had the power to

4:29create with our minds and thoughts. If

4:32we understood our our human

4:33capabilities, our human capacity, we

4:36could transport right now and go

4:38somewhere. I could put my hand through

4:40this wall. I could create and man Yeah,

4:42like crazy things. That there's other

4:45dimensions out there with with other

4:46spiritual beings that we can communicate

4:48with.

4:49And it was all biblical. Uh that's just

4:52a little taste of it.

4:53>> Which which is like when the more I've

4:56been I've been interviewing psychics and

4:58former Satanists and stuff,

5:00what I'm hearing you say is like there's

5:02people in the Christian space that are

5:04illegally accessing demons and they're

5:07doing it in the name of Christianity.

5:10>> They actually think it's something the

5:11Bible teaches.

5:13And that's the deception and that is the

5:17main difference between New Age and New

5:19Thought. New Age a lot of Christians

5:20would

5:21recognize. Um

5:23I I just gave a talk on this today.

5:25Reiki, transcendental meditation, you

5:28have yoga, which you know, can you know,

5:31some people are like, "What? Yoga is New

5:32Age?" I'm like, "Yeah, it's it was

5:33originally a Hindu practice, astrology,

5:36uh numerology. There's a lot of things

5:38that would be considered New Age and

5:41it's Eastern mysticism, right? Think of

5:42like Hinduism and Buddhism. New Thought

5:44is more Gnostic.

5:46>> Mhm.

5:47>> Gnostic. Where you have this separation

5:50from the material world, which is

5:52secondary, it's evil. And the spiritual

5:54world is true reality. The truest part

5:57of you is spiritual.

5:59>> Which sounds really good.

6:01>> It sounds really good.

6:02>> Yeah.

6:02>> And there's a correspondence for

6:04everything. So, if there's something

6:05wrong in the physical realm, according

6:07to a lot of New Thought teachings,

6:09um you fix it in the spiritual realm.

6:11So, if your body is sick,

6:13that means something's wrong in the

6:14spiritual realm, and you have to bring

6:16it forth from that spiritual realm in

6:18order to manifest it here in the

6:20physical. So, you're not really sick.

6:22There's just something wrong in the

6:23spiritual realm that you need to fix.

6:25>> Mhm.

6:25>> Um and you bring it forth through your

6:28thoughts, words, and feelings.

6:30>> Mhm.

6:30>> And there's all kinds of Bible

6:31scriptures that they will bring into the

6:34into the mix to say, "Yeah, this is

6:35scriptural. This is what Jesus really

6:37taught."

6:37>> Like what?

6:38>> And what got me was the secret esoteric

6:40teaching.

6:40>> Mhm.

6:41>> Yeah, that it's hidden.

6:43>> Mhm.

6:43>> Yeah.

6:44>> Yeah. That is so true. I've I've found

6:46that in so many charismatic circles.

6:48>> Yeah.

6:49>> it feels like the the person teaching

6:51has this

6:52it it's all very ambiguous. It doesn't

6:55feel very simple. It doesn't feel very

6:57accessible. It feels like there's this

6:59I've I've heard a lot of them use the

7:01word hidden. Like it's the hidden

7:03things.

7:03>> Yes.

7:04>> And you don't understand these hidden

7:05things, but I do.

7:06>> But I do.

7:07>> Yeah.

7:07>> Yes, and it's very prideful. I would not

7:09have thought of it that way at all. I

7:12would have thought it's powerful.

7:13>> Mhm.

7:14>> I would have thought, "No, this is this

7:16isn't a If I want to use the word

7:17anointing, I would not have used that

7:19word. This is a gift from God that I'm

7:22in the know on, and you peasant

7:23Christians don't get it."

7:25>> Mhm.

7:25>> Right? It was like, "I know better than

7:27you. I have this

7:29There's always a deeper secret hidden

7:31message within scripture. That's why you

7:34can read the Bible and come up with one

7:36interpretation, but I can understand it

7:39on a deeper

7:41And this is where it gets really

7:42gnostic, a more esoteric

7:44level. And so, only those who are in

7:48Christ, which is a different meaning to

7:50them, Christ consciousness,

7:52the consciousness of Christ can

7:54understand those hidden things of

7:55scripture. And that's where you get a

7:56lot of just garbage.

7:59It There's It's so crazy what people

8:00will come up with.

8:01>> So, when you say Christ consciousness,

8:02what does that mean?

8:04>> So, the other way to understand New

8:05Thought as opposed to New Age is

8:08New Thought looks Christian, but it's

8:10metaphysical Christianity. That

8:12metaphysical part is very important.

8:15>> And what does metaphysical mean?

8:16>> Good question. It's beyond the physical

8:17is what they'd say. But, what that

8:19really means is what I just said. It's

8:20like Christianity on steroids.

8:23There's a deeper meaning to your

8:25Christianity that you have to look

8:27within to find.

8:29And so, that That means that if I'm

8:32reading scripture, you don't just take

8:34it at face value. There's another

8:36corresponding meaning to what that word

8:40is. And it could be anything in in

8:42scripture.

8:43Uh let's take Christ. So, Christ, the

8:46metaphysical meaning for that is

8:49uh the dormant inner divinity,

8:51inner spark within all of humanity.

8:55Okay? So, they separate Jesus and

8:57Christ. Jesus is a a man. Yeah. So,

8:59okay, tell me what Christ means as a

9:01Christian. Let's start there cuz I think

9:02a lot of people will understand this,

9:04but what does Christ mean as a

9:06Christian?

9:07>> Savior.

9:07>> Yeah, yeah, Messiah.

9:08>> Messiah, yeah.

9:09>> Anointed one.

9:10>> Yeah.

9:10>> That's boring, Ryan.

9:12>> [laughter]

9:13>> That's boring.

9:14>> Can we add a little salt to this? Let's

9:15spice this thing up a little bit.

9:17>> No, you don't get it. There's a deeper

9:18hidden meaning for it that you don't

9:20understand. Let me tell you what it

9:22means, right?

9:23That's kind of the posture. It's like,

9:25"Ah, you don't get it." They separate

9:27Jesus and Christ, two different

9:28entities. Jesus is the man who

9:30represents humanity, right? And Christ

9:35is that inner divinity within all of us.

9:37And he became conscious of it, and so

9:39can you.

9:40>> Sounds like Mormonism.

9:41>> Oh, it's a little bit of Mormonism. It's

9:43funny how many people bring that up.

9:45Mormonism is different, um, but they

9:48Mormons believe that you can eventually

9:49become a god.

9:50>> Mhm.

9:50>> Right? And this is that same concept

9:53except in a different spiritual

9:56uh, you know, soup, if you will.

9:58>> Mhm.

9:58>> It New Thought is so tricky because it

10:01doesn't just say, "Oh, you're god."

10:03Right? But it gives you the power of

10:04god. You can say, "Oh, I have Christ

10:06within me." But it means something very

10:08different. The it's the serpent's lie is

10:11what it is. It's it's the idea that you

10:14can have the power of god in the name of

10:17Jesus. Where New Thought wouldn't even

10:19bring up Jesus. It'll just say, "Oh,

10:20you're all god. You're all divine."

10:22>> Mhm.

10:23>> New Thought says it's a Christian belief

10:26that it's it's it's this higher version

10:28of Christianity. And they call it New

10:29Thought because the god of New Thought

10:31is always progressing

10:32>> Mhm.

10:33>> um,

10:34with with humanity. And so, it leaves

10:37the old ways of thinking and embraces

10:40new ways of thinking.

10:41>> Mhm.

10:41>> Especially spiritually speaking. Which

10:44really messes with the foundation of

10:45truth and reality.

10:46>> Mhm.

10:46>> New Thought, the other thing about it is

10:48that you

10:49in in the real world, we discover

10:52reality and truth, right? We don't

10:54create it.

10:55>> Yeah.

10:56>> That's another difference. Is that you

10:57have the authority to kind of bring

11:00things into existence because that's

11:03what god wants you to have. You can have

11:04the same power that god has.

11:07>> Mhm.

11:07>> ultimately

11:09what it is.

11:10>> Yeah, yeah, yeah.

11:11Yeah, it and that sounds a lot like

11:13Satanism to me

11:14>> You're right. Yeah.

11:15>> Um, because Satanism is not necessarily

11:17the worship of Satan, it's the worship

11:18of you.

11:19>> Mhm.

11:20>> And I think when you get into some of

11:21these charismatic circles,

11:23they can take these scriptures that's

11:25like, "Okay, well, Christ is in you. You

11:26receive the same spirit that rose Jesus

11:28from the dead." Those are both true

11:30theological beliefs. But what they're

11:32saying is this is coming from me, the

11:34Christ in me, instead of saying no, I am

11:37empowered by the same spirit that rose

11:40Jesus from the dead. So, I've been given

11:41access as a child of God to yes, do all

11:45the things that the book of Acts talks

11:46about. But what's the distinction that

11:48you're talking about?

11:49>> Yeah, so that's a good thing that you

11:51bring up. The charismatic churches, who

11:53I love by the way,

11:55yeah, like I have so much love. I have a

11:57lot of charismatic brothers and sisters

11:58in in Christ, but they would gladly link

12:01arms with me, join arms with me and say

12:03there's a problem here.

12:04>> Yes.

12:05>> And they're

12:06not allowed to talk about it a lot. This

12:08is one of the main issues is you can't

12:10question your leaders. You can't really

12:12question what's going on in your church

12:15because if you question it, then you

12:17might miss out on your blessing. That

12:18means you're doubting.

12:20And here's the problem with with new

12:22thought is that

12:23a lot of people don't realize that that

12:26movement has been brought over. It's

12:28called the word of faith movement,

12:29right? You have the word of faith

12:30movement and then the new apostolic

12:32reformation or what people understand is

12:33the NAR,

12:35which is an offshoot of word of faith.

12:37I've never met a NAR pastor who's not

12:39also word of faith.

12:41>> Which we were talking about before. I've

12:42had an NAR pastor on the podcast.

12:45>> Shame. I'm just kidding.

12:46>> [laughter]

12:47>> We would disagree, yeah.

12:51>> For me, I'm learning this stuff, you

12:53know, this is like I want I want people

12:55who commune with Jesus on this podcast.

12:57And so we were even talking about like

12:58who would you allow on this podcast, who

12:59wouldn't you allow. And for me, I'm just

13:01like I want people who abide with the

13:03Lord, who abide with Jesus. Yeah, yeah,

13:05so this is this is fascinating for me. I

13:06I I'm still a little

13:09foggy on the distinction between Christ

13:12in me that the same spirit that rose

13:14Jesus from the dead is now working in

13:16power. Because I think I think the

13:18gospel moves through power through its

13:20believers. But what I'm hearing you say

13:22is is the power coming from me, Ryan, or

13:25is it being attributed to Christ, the

13:27spirit that I'm yielded to? Is that kind

13:29of what you're saying?

13:30>> Yes. Yeah, so here's the difference.

13:32It's like

13:32>> [clears throat]

13:33>> before we got on, we're talking about

13:35you know, Satan's MO is question God and

13:37give power.

13:39And so the issue that I find is that in

13:41a lot of these spaces, there's a lust.

13:46That's the word I'll use, a lust for

13:48power and the supernatural.

13:51They will do whatever it takes to get an

13:53experience.

13:54>> Yeah.

13:54>> There's a lust for experience. Because

13:56if I'm having an experience with God,

13:58that means that his favor is on me.

14:00>> Mhm.

14:01>> And then that experience equals, oh,

14:02well, God loves me. God favors me. But

14:05what if you're not having any

14:06experience? Does that mean that you're

14:08just the second-hand Christian?

14:10>> Yeah, yeah.

14:10>> Does that mean that God loves you less?

14:12So then what do you do? You start

14:14chasing it. And it's like in the

14:16beginning of a relationship, right?

14:17Where you fall in love and it's all

14:19you're all Twitterpated, right? And

14:21you're like, oh, man, he loves me, but

14:23he hasn't called me in 20 minutes. You

14:25know, and so you chase after that,

14:26right? And it's a very immature kind of

14:28way to think about it.

14:29>> Which for me, I I am chasing after the

14:32presence of the Lord.

14:33>> Mhm.

14:34>> And I'm not hearing you say that that's

14:35wrong. That is the goal of the Christian

14:37life.

14:37>> No, we want to sit in his lap and be

14:38able to, you know, have that

14:40relationship with him. I think where um

14:43I would disagree with with myself

14:46um with what I'm saying is like, yeah,

14:48that's true. Every Christian should want

14:49that. We're children of God.

14:51>> Yes.

14:51>> Um where

14:53I think I'm going to draw a distinction

14:55is when you go into a Christian space

14:58and

15:00super Deborah Christian over here is

15:02having, you know, visits to the third

15:04heaven every night.

15:06>> Mhm.

15:06>> And she's saying, yeah, God told me this

15:08and that, and she's just over here

15:10floating in the Holy Spirit, it seems,

15:11right? That she's having experience

15:14after experience after experience, and

15:15you're like, well, I'm not.

15:17>> Mhm.

15:17>> God doesn't talk to me like that. What

15:19am I missing out on?

15:20>> Mhm.

15:21>> And so it comes this, you know, this

15:23this one-up game almost of of power that

15:26can turn into pride. And this the

15:29problem I have is

15:31when are we going to look at what Paul

15:33said about contentment and be okay with

15:35that? I am so happy and and joyful just

15:39sitting with God um with my Bible open

15:42and I don't have this out of out of body

15:44spiritual experience.

15:46Uh I love sitting and learning about

15:48him, but if I'm always chasing an

15:50experience to feel loved or favored by

15:53God, I feel like I've run into a dead

15:55end because what if I don't experience

15:57that? Then I manufacture it.

15:58>> Yeah.

15:59>> And that I think is really where a lot

16:00of it can come from.

16:02You know, and kind of going back to the

16:04the other thing too with the word of

16:05faith and and and it kind of being

16:07intertwined,

16:08the word of faith movement, some people

16:10may not understand what I mean by that.

16:12Um

16:12but it's actually a name given to the

16:15movement by the leaders like Kenneth

16:17Hagin. Um you have Benny Hinn, you have

16:20the prosperity teachers like Kenneth

16:21Copeland that are a part of this

16:24movement.

16:25And some of it's good. And orthodox.

16:28Like you're it's it comes from three

16:29different modes.

16:31Uh first from Pentecostalism, then the

16:34faith cure movement of the 1800s, but

16:36the third is new thought. And so you're

16:38having all of these beliefs kind of

16:40transferred over into the church that

16:43are unbiblical, but we think they're

16:45biblical.

16:46And the other thing is what do you do

16:47when you get results from that? You

16:50think it's good and you think it's true

16:52and you think it works. That's what

16:53really caught me up.

16:55Is when it worked. I'm like, oh, this

16:56has to be true because it worked. I have

16:58a result.

16:59>> Yeah.

16:59>> And that's that's my that's my standard

17:01of truth.

17:02>> Hey guys, I want to take a break and I

17:03want to tell you about a ministry that's

17:04really near and dear to my heart. It's

17:06called Global Christian Relief. And this

17:08is the organization that's going into

17:09Pakistan and freeing slaves, going into

17:12Nigeria and providing support for

17:14Christians who have fled Boko Haram and

17:16the Fulani and are now living in camps.

17:18They're providing food, shelter, medical

17:21aid for a fraction of what it costs for

17:24us to live. I'm talking a minuscule

17:26amount to take care of our brothers and

17:28sisters in Christ right now who are

17:29being massacred. And my encouragement to

17:31you would be to give a small monthly

17:33gift. There's a link in the description

17:35or in the show notes. Please click that

17:37link. Support your brothers and sisters

17:39in Christ who are being killed right

17:41now. Who are being ostracized right now.

17:43Who are being enslaved right now. And

17:45know that Jesus said, "Whatever you did

17:46for the least of these brothers, you did

17:48for me." So, you bless Jesus on this

17:50earth right now through the persecuted

17:52body.

17:53>> I guess the simplest way I can describe

17:55what I'm hearing you say is the word of

17:58faith movement is a name it and claim it

18:01type of I have this power in me and

18:03therefore I ascend the spiritual ranks

18:07by exercising that power, which in some

18:10ways I would argue the Bible is so

18:13clear, "Eagerly pursue the spiritual

18:15gifts."

18:16So, we should pursue the spiritual

18:17gifts, but all of them. Are you saying

18:19that some of these leaders will elevate

18:21certain gifts above other gifts and then

18:23use that as a power manipulation play?

18:25>> Yeah, 100%. Um

18:28like prophetic. Let's take that for a

18:30second. A lot of people, you know what?

18:32I don't ever hear anybody

18:34brag about some other like hospitality

18:37gift.

18:37>> Mhm.

18:38>> Right? Um teaching.

18:40These kinds of things. It's always got

18:41to be this higher

18:43super spiritual type of gift that makes

18:47you sound or seem like you do have this

18:49higher elevated authority.

18:51>> Mhm.

18:51>> Because again, it's the power. It's it's

18:53wanting the power. And you should They

18:54all say you should be able to walk in

18:56power.

18:57>> Mhm.

18:57>> Um I mean, I've heard people say that

18:59they've been in stores and they're so

19:01anointed with the Holy Spirit that

19:02people just fall. Right? You hear these

19:04grandiose stories.

19:06>> But I'm like

19:07did that did that really happen? You

19:09know, like I did that really happen?

19:12Um and the way that it's it's kind of

19:14twisted

19:16to make it seem like scripture saying

19:18one thing when it actually means

19:19another. You're not encouraged to go

19:23hermeneutically understand the Bible the

19:24way it's it's translated. You're not

19:27encouraged to test your teachers. That's

19:31a big red flag. A huge red flag. If

19:34somebody's telling you you cannot

19:35question the anointed.

19:37>> Yeah.

19:38>> The word I'm going to use and it's a

19:39strong word the little cultish. That's

19:41actually my first love in ministry is

19:43researching and studying cult and put

19:44the mindset of cults. How does somebody

19:46get in a cult? Why do they get in a

19:48cult? What what need were they trying to

19:50meet? I am fascinated by the psychology

19:53of that.

19:55And I'll tell you that is a big red

19:57flag.

19:57>> Yeah.

19:58>> Do not follow anybody that you are not

20:00allowed to test and question.

20:02>> Amen.

20:03>> Scripture says the opposite.

20:04>> Amen.

20:04>> In fact, that's how you're going to get

20:06deceived is because you are not allowed

20:08to test and question them. But they're

20:10supposed to hear from God?

20:11>> Mhm.

20:12>> Something's wrong with that. Is the Lord

20:14really leading them? They say they love

20:16the Lord and man they might even spread

20:18the gospel. They might give a clear

20:19gospel message.

20:21But your their their their claiming

20:24authority that they ought not have and

20:26this is the word I'll use for this is

20:27spiritual abuse

20:29and manipulation. You can get some good

20:32things from these from from leaders who

20:35are

20:36trying to subdue you. You can get some

20:39good things from heretics, from false

20:41prophets. You can get some good things

20:42from the secular world. The idea is

20:45testing it against reality and

20:47scripture. And when you are told to turn

20:49off your mind in order to accept what

20:51you're being taught run.

20:54>> Yes, please.

20:55>> Yeah.

20:55>> Yeah. What do you do with the the

20:57scripture that says

20:59eagerly pursue the spiritual gifts

21:00especially that you may prophesy?

21:02>> Oh, yeah. I agree. I think that

21:05That's the thing is that I'm not a

21:06cessationist.

21:07But what does prophesying mean?

21:09>> I think prophecy means to speak the

21:11words of God.

21:12>> Yeah. So, if you're going around saying

21:14God told me every other day, but God

21:16didn't really tell you, then you ought

21:18but with the fear of the Lord in your

21:20heart, you had better be careful

21:22prophesying in the name of the Lord.

21:24>> Amen. Amen.

21:25>> Yeah, like where is your fear of the

21:27Lord? Cuz everybody's out there saying

21:29God told me, God told me, God told me.

21:31And I'm like, did God tell you?

21:33And because I think it was So, it wasn't

21:35you. It was actually We were talking

21:36about this earlier at a conference. You

21:38know, I was standing there with a group

21:40of friends one time. And this guy comes

21:42and he's like standing there right next

21:43to me. This is like 10 years ago. And

21:45I'm like looking at him and I'm like, is

21:47somebody know this guy? And he looks at

21:49me and he's like, God told me to come

21:51over and talk to you.

21:53And you know, he was trying to hit on

21:54me.

21:55>> Oh, really?

21:56>> He's like, God told me you're my wife.

21:58>> My wife had that happen. Guess guess

22:00what, buddy? I got her.

22:01>> You see?

22:02>> [laughter]

22:02>> And I looked right at him dead in the

22:04eye. I was like, did God tell you that

22:05I'm married?

22:06>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

22:07>> And he It was like I I didn't know

22:09anything about a lot of charismatic

22:12circles at this time. It was like It was

22:13a long time ago. But I started paying it

22:16more attention to that. I'm like, did

22:17God really tell you or was it your

22:18feelings? Or was it this or was it that?

22:21And I don't think that there's a testing

22:23of that.

22:24I think there's more of a willingness to

22:25kind of go through with it because we

22:27want it to be from God. And I think that

22:30that's where we can get into a lot of

22:32trouble.

22:33And then the other issue is the power

22:36play because if you can convince a ton

22:39of people that you hear from God,

22:43they're going to give you a lot of money

22:45and they're going to give you a lot of

22:46notoriety. And you, my friend, are now

22:48going to be put on a pedestal and used

22:51to not being questioned and you're just

22:53going to be paraded around as this

22:54prophet of God. And I'm sorry, when I

22:57look

22:58at at somebody who's prophesying in the

23:00Bible.

23:04Nobody did that. They killed the

23:07prophets. Okay, if you're going in Yes.

23:10And then like even in the New Testament,

23:12tell me one apostle that that would go

23:15and and and preach

23:17a message of of wealth and health.

23:21>> Oh, yeah. No.

23:21>> It's like they all died.

23:23>> Yeah, they

23:23>> They all [laughter] died.

23:24One guy Yeah, one guy got exiled and the

23:26rest got murdered.

23:28>> do you do with that health and wealth

23:29gospel when they all died?

23:31>> It's It's

23:32It's the Jesus the world has always

23:34hated is the one It's that that gospel.

23:38That gospel will be rejected. But hey,

23:41I'll accept a gospel that you can come

23:42tell me that I can prophesy and teach

23:44health and wealth and always get

23:46results. That I can take that Jesus. I

23:48I'll do that. That one will make me

23:50rich. That one will make me happy.

23:52>> [clears throat]

23:52>> Um they they they

23:55they lose it. They lose that.

23:57>> is what is the proper prophetic?

24:00>> Well, you know, and that's the thing.

24:01It's like I think that a proper

24:02prophetic

24:03I think that if I if somebody were to

24:05come up to me and give me

24:08a prophecy

24:09first I'd be like, well

24:12First of all, that's never happened.

24:13>> Mhm.

24:14>> But if I were to say that somebody's in

24:16the prophetic, this would probably be a

24:18person who

24:20wouldn't announce it to everybody.

24:21>> Mhm.

24:22>> Um let me give you an example. Um I

24:24remember I was wit- witnessing to a

24:27Jehovah's Witness in the moment.

24:29>> Mhm.

24:29>> And I had a friend who is more

24:31charismatic, by the way. Um and I'm in

24:34it with this guy. I'm like giving it the

24:36gospel, you know, giving him the gospel,

24:37getting him to think, which is really

24:39difficult. If anybody's ever talked to a

24:40Jehovah's Witness

24:42it is very difficult to get the locks

24:43off. And I'm feeling it. I'm like, oh

24:46man, he's getting it. As I am in that

24:49conversation,

24:50bam! She gives me this text. She's like,

24:52I do not know why, but I'm praying for

24:54you right now. Like whatever you're

24:56going through right now is so heavy on

24:58my heart.

24:58>> Mhm.

24:59>> Um I'm praying for you. I need you to

25:01know that you need to keep doing what

25:02you're doing. Right? Like that's what I

25:04mean. It's like there there's this

25:05element of prayer, of support, of

25:08encouragement. But here's what I don't

25:10think it is.

25:12I think it's very difficult to walk up

25:14to somebody

25:16and say, "Ryan, God told me you're

25:18supposed to marry this person."

25:19>> Mhm.

25:21>> Well, number one, why couldn't God tell

25:23you that?

25:24And number two, what if you're not?

25:26>> Mhm.

25:26>> I have I have seen so many people get

25:28shipwrecked. Like they have made Oh oh

25:31it was Shawn Bolz. Shawn Bolz just got

25:32in a ton of trouble for this. Um for

25:34giving prophecies that were not

25:37prophetic, that were not from the

25:38prophetic. He gave people advice that he

25:41should not have given them. He he told

25:43people things that were from God

25:45that were never from God to begin with.

25:47And people had some very harsh outcomes

25:51from this prophecy from Shawn Bolz.

25:53>> Mhm.

25:54>> Um and and that's what I'm talking

25:56about. Is is that if the prophetic is

25:58just telling people how to have a better

26:00life,

26:01I I don't understand

26:04the purpose of that. I understand the

26:06prayer. I understand the power of

26:08everybody coming together and and as a

26:11church community um being able to to

26:14encourage and exhort.

26:15>> Mhm.

26:15>> But

26:17I I it's all and it's always the for the

26:18things of this world. I mean, I I don't

26:20ever see anybody ever pray for like

26:22re- respect, to have more respect for

26:24their wife, for humility.

26:25>> Mhm.

26:26>> Um it's always about these these

26:28grandiose things of health and wealth.

26:30I'm like, "Why?" Yeah.

26:31>> Yeah, I don't know that I've experienced

26:32that personally.

26:33>> Good. I'm glad to hear

26:34>> hanging with [laughter] some good

26:35people. But like the prophetic for me

26:37>> Yeah.

26:38>> has always been deeply encouraging.

26:40>> Yeah.

26:40>> And it's always come with a lot of

26:41humility. Like, "Hey, I was praying. I I

26:43felt like the Lord said this for you."

26:45>> Yes.

26:46>> and then when someone's when whenever

26:47someone comes to me and says, "I feel

26:49like the Lord said this to you." I'll

26:50go,

26:51"Thank you."

26:52>> Mhm.

26:52>> Like I'll wait for it to be confirmed,

26:54you know?

26:54>> Yes.

26:54>> And because two or three witnesses,

26:56right? And so like this is supposed to

26:58be done in order and it's supposed to be

26:59done for the encouragement of the

27:00believer,

27:01>> Mhm.

27:01>> not for the self uh promotion and

27:03self-exaltation

27:05that we're seeing a lot of people do it

27:06under and the health and wealth gospel,

27:08which is not the gospel.

27:09>> Yeah.

27:10>> The gospel is pick up your cross. What

27:12do they do on crosses, right? So,

27:14>> yeah, I mean cuz there's been plenty of

27:16words that I've received and plenty of

27:17words that I've given. Like I remember

27:19going up to this girl uh this high

27:21school girl without sharing too many

27:22details. I was at a conference and I

27:24just felt like so heavy. The Lord was

27:25like, "You need to go up to her and tell

27:27her that what they did to her was not

27:28her fault." And I'm like, "That's

27:30weird." This was early on when I first

27:32started hearing the Holy Spirit. So like

27:34I I was a practical cessationist. I

27:36never like I used to laugh at these

27:38people. Like, "What? Like you guys are

27:41Looney Tunes."

27:41>> Mhm.

27:42>> And so I did it and I went up to this

27:43girl and this is early on when I like I

27:46said started hearing the voice of the

27:47Holy Spirit.

27:48And I just said, "Hey, this like this is

27:50going to be really weird, but I just

27:52felt like the Lord said to tell you what

27:53they did to you wasn't your fault. Does

27:55that Does that land at all?" And she

27:57goes, "No."

27:59And I go, "Frick."

28:01>> [laughter]

28:01>> I left and I like went I remember going

28:04to another leader there

28:05>> Yeah.

28:06>> and I remember being like, "Dude, I I

28:07think I just did something wrong. Like I

28:10just told that girl that like what they

28:12did to her wasn't her fault."

28:13>> Mhm.

28:14>> And he goes,

28:15"Dude,

28:16like she was gang you know what-ed when

28:19she was

28:20a kid."

28:21>> Mhm.

28:22>> And I was like, "Oh, okay." So like I've

28:25been in this season I would say for the

28:27last 10 years of really trying to

28:30discern like internally like when is

28:33this from the Lord and when is this not

28:34from the Lord?

28:35>> Yeah.

28:35>> You know like we were talking before you

28:36were like, "Hey, when did you start the

28:37podcast?" I'm like, "Oh, about a year

28:38ago I had three people call me in a week

28:40saying I was praying today and I heard

28:42the Lord say you're supposed to start a

28:43podcast. For me, I'm like, "If three

28:45people tell me to do anything that I

28:47trust, I'm doing that thing. You know

28:49what I mean? So, the dividing line, if

28:52I'm hearing you right, it's

28:53self-exaltation

28:55and it's power personally, rather than

28:58coming with humility and saying, "Hey, I

29:00got a scripture for you as I was

29:02praying. I hope this encourages you." As

29:04opposed to, "I think you need to sell

29:06your house. You know, I I think the

29:08world is ending."

29:10>> galore.

29:11And I mean, do you know who Mike Winger

29:13is?

29:13>> Yeah.

29:14>> Yeah, dude. Mike Winger his he's doing

29:17the Lord's work right now, because he

29:18he's charismatic. Everybody thinks that

29:20he's like going

29:21>> going after the charismatic leaders, so

29:22everyone's like, he's got to be, yeah.

29:24>> not. And that's the idea is that

29:25nobody's Nobody wants to do that. You

29:28know, it's very difficult to do, but

29:29there's there's this exposure that's

29:31happening that's good. Um but it is a

29:34lot of it is in the charismatic

29:36community, and I don't think that that's

29:38a mistake. I think that that there it

29:40breeds for a lot of of leaders that are

29:43in positions of power that took the

29:45power, that ought not have that position

29:47of power. And everybody thinks they hear

29:49from God.

29:49>> Wow.

29:50>> The thing that my what I would challenge

29:53people with, what I would want to see

29:54more, is we pay so much attention to the

29:57heart, and we ought to.

29:59>> Mhm.

30:00>> Um I think that is so important to love

30:01God with all your heart, but he also

30:03says to love God with all your mind.

30:05>> Amen.

30:06>> Yes. And to bring reason back into the

30:08Christian walk.

30:09>> order to this thing.

30:10>> There's order. Critical thinking and

30:12logic. I think every Christian should

30:13take a critical thinking and logic

30:15class.

30:15>> Mhm.

30:16>> Um because there's a structure

30:19to be able to reason well.

30:21>> Mhm.

30:21>> To be able to think for yourself, and

30:24also be able to reason for yourself, and

30:27think, "Okay, something's off here." It

30:29helps your Cuz all all discernment is is

30:32good judgment. It's good proper

30:34judgment. And so, if I'm listening to

30:36somebody and I'm like,

30:38"Something's off." And I'm like,

30:40"Nobody's You don't This is wrong.

30:42Something's off here.

30:44And the rest of the crowd is just like,

30:45"Oh, this is so great. This is so good."

30:47I'm like, "Am I off? Am I missing

30:49something?"

30:49>> Mhm.

30:50>> Um but typically the idea is that

30:52whoever's talking, you don't question.

30:54They're hearing from God. They have

30:55something for you, and you don't want to

30:57miss out on your blessing. And that's

31:00the idea. I remember having a friend one

31:02time, um he was saying part of the

31:04problem of being a pastor in this

31:06community, it was like a it was a uh

31:08signs and wonders kind of church he was

31:09pastoring. And he was trying to get a

31:11good grip on on teaching the

31:13congregation a better idea of of the

31:15word of God. He saw the problems, in

31:17other words.

31:17>> Mhm.

31:18>> Um he's like, "The problem I'm dealing

31:19with is that

31:21a lot of Christians

31:23uh their door is too open because

31:25they're afraid they'll miss out on a

31:27blessing from God. So, they'll just let

31:29in any weird, wacky, odd, strange belief

31:32because, well, it might be from God."

31:34>> Mhm.

31:34>> And he's like, "I'm trying to get them

31:36to discern better, to think better."

31:38>> Mhm.

31:38>> Um and that's kind of part of our

31:40meaning uh a meeting together was well,

31:43what how like help me do this, right?

31:45You know, how do I get them to think a

31:46little bit better? Um so that they're

31:48not deceived. And so, but yeah, I I

31:51think I I would have fit in very well in

31:53a charismatic community and uh a

31:57charismatic church when I had a lot of

31:58new thought beliefs because I had that

32:00power and the the terminology,

32:02uh but I didn't have the discernment. I

32:04had the power and the pride, though. But

32:06I I thought it was I didn't think of it

32:08like that at at the time.

32:10>> At all. Yeah. So, I don't know if that

32:13I've shared this, but in 2020, do you

32:15remember the prophecies on YouTube and

32:18stuff in 2020 that like after the

32:20election the world was going to like

32:23dissolve into chaos, and there was going

32:24to be

32:25basically an EMP that wiped out like an

32:28electromagnetic pulse. A nuke was going

32:30to go in the sky, and it was going to

32:31wipe out like the West Coast, like the

32:33grids and stuff. Do you remember that?

32:35>> No.

32:35>> There were some charismatic um

32:37>> I lost half my brain during COVID

32:38though, so it's

32:39>> Yeah, yeah.

32:40>> Yeah.

32:40>> Um and I totally fell into it.

32:42>> Really?

32:43>> I was buying Faraday cages

32:45>> Oh.

32:46>> and I was stocking up on like rice and

32:48beans and stuff.

32:50And it was totally I look back and I'm

32:52like

32:53that was all fear-based.

32:54>> I was just going to ask you, tell me

32:56why. Tell me what it was that sucked you

32:58in.

32:58>> I uh I think I was in an unhealthy spot

33:01and I think um

33:03I I just believed it. I think I just

33:05fell prey to it.

33:07And um yeah, interesting question. Why?

33:10Because it's not like I had bad theology

33:12then.

33:13I think I You know what it was? I think

33:15I was young in my journey walking with

33:17the Holy Spirit.

33:17>> I I I I can't think of a better word,

33:19but

33:20>> like I'm a very gullible person. I feel

33:21like

33:21>> that time though, like

33:22>> At that time I think I was I think I was

33:24just in a lot of fear. I was I was

33:26dealing with anxiety for the first time

33:27in my life.

33:27>> Mhm.

33:28>> Um

33:29>> That'll do [clears throat] it.

33:30>> I had encountered the Holy Spirit in a

33:31really rich and authentic way

33:33>> Mhm.

33:33>> and I had swung the pendulum. So, I was

33:35at Reformed Theological Seminary.

33:37>> Uh-huh.

33:37>> Like cessationist, like very very

33:40reformed

33:40>> Mhm.

33:41>> and then the pendulum swung as I started

33:43seeing signs, miracles, and wonders,

33:45which I really did see. I saw them with

33:47my own eyes. I encountered them

33:48personally. Like the doctor told me I

33:50had Crohn's disease. I had a lady pray

33:52over my stomach and my stomach left.

33:54>> And then I went back to the doctor, no

33:55Crohn's disease. So, I'm experiencing

33:57these things that were all beautiful.

34:00Um and they were all done in humility.

34:01Like it wasn't this power There was no

34:03power I was in a Starbucks with, you

34:04know,

34:05>> Yeah.

34:05>> like nothing nothing like, I don't know,

34:07on a stage and

34:08um yeah, I've got some more stories for

34:11you too, but

34:11>> [laughter]

34:11>> now that they're coming to mind. Um but

34:13yeah, I just fell into this fear thing

34:16and it caused me to just listen. I

34:18remember just binge-watching this one

34:20dude's YouTube videos of this these

34:22visions he was getting and these dreams

34:24he was getting. And it was it was really

34:26it was scaring me.

34:27>> Oh, yeah.

34:28>> I remember feeling like

34:29>> Yeah, I like couldn't I couldn't like

34:30work because I couldn't thinking about

34:33it.

34:33>> Yep. And so after the and everyone was

34:36like Trump's going to win in a

34:37landslide.

34:38>> got you. They got you. Yeah.

34:40>> then I after none of it happened, I was

34:43like, what was that? Like and then I got

34:45really mad. And I got really jaded.

34:48>> Yeah.

34:48>> And I was like, well, screw all of that.

34:50Like I got way off. And so I think the

34:53pendulum swung way back and I got

34:54cynical, which to me is the biggest

34:56heartbreak of it all cuz if we want to

34:58encounter the power of the Holy Spirit

35:00in our lives, if we want to

35:02experience the power of Jesus and the

35:04work of the kingdom of God,

35:06and and someone uses spiritual abuse and

35:09manipulation to really feed you lies in

35:11the name of the prophetic,

35:13that sucks. And so that's what happened

35:15and then I think I've come back into

35:16good order and realizing that like God

35:19is a god of order and when he

35:21in the scriptures, there's a very

35:23there's boundary lines he draws to the

35:26prophetic and to miracles. And those are

35:29beautiful things that we

35:31>> and a lot of people abuse it.

35:32>> Yes, and so that's

35:33>> sadly you guys yeah, you guys are the

35:35victims of it.

35:36>> Yeah, and I think that's what I what's

35:38you know, what I'm feeling as we're

35:40talking is like, ah, shoot, I don't want

35:42people to just reject the move of the

35:44spirit of God. Like that would be the

35:46the the

35:47>> Discern it.

35:48>> Discern it.

35:49>> Do not reject it, discern it.

35:51>> Bring it into wise counsel.

35:52>> a supernatural God.

35:53>> Yes.

35:54>> And I think it's silly to think that I

35:56mean even atheists, like how how am I

35:57going to sit here across from an atheist

35:59like God doesn't do you any. Of course

36:00he does. Um, that's an that's an

36:03argument from you know, first principles

36:06if we're going to get fancy seminary

36:07talk. It's like you're talking about the

36:09idea of who God is. He has to be a

36:12supernatural God. Um, you know, and it's

36:15funny cuz a hindsight question in in

36:17what you experienced, I would have to

36:19wonder what if Trump won at that point?

36:22Would you have been won over to these

36:23other prophets? Because sometimes it's

36:26like I call it prophecy darts, right?

36:28Where it's like, okay, there's this big

36:31uh you know, target on the wall. And

36:35I'm just going to throw as much stuff as

36:36I can, right? And think, okay, what's

36:39going to stick, right? And the stuff

36:40that doesn't stick, nobody pays

36:42attention to. Um but it's it's the

36:44fallacy of ambiguity, really. Is that

36:46you're so ambiguous and vague that if

36:48you're right, you take credit for it.

36:50But if you're wrong, uh it meant

36:52something else. There's nothing actually

36:54specific. And I would warn against that.

36:56If somebody's not super specific, and

36:59like if somebody walked up to me, right?

37:01And like say they had something to tell

37:03me.

37:03Um it would need to be incredibly

37:06specific for me to even If it's vague or

37:08ambiguous, I'm not the kind of person

37:11that is looking for that kind of stuff.

37:13And then I'll like a like a puzzle piece

37:15just be like, oh, I think that fits

37:16here, right? And then I'll I'll take

37:18what they're saying and put it here and

37:19be like, all right. Um thanks, God,

37:22right? But I don't actually know what

37:24that meant.

37:25I need I would need like super

37:26specifics.

37:27Uh but yeah, I call it prophecy darts,

37:29where it's just like you you kind of

37:30guess it. And then the other thing is,

37:33okay, so if you Do you know like Kosta

37:35Hinn? Do you know who that is? Oh, Kosta

37:37Hinn. You should know him. You should

37:38know who he is. Um he is Benny Hinn's

37:40nephew.

37:42And I remember a story that he told one

37:44time, and that's why I bring him up, is

37:46that um

37:47uh Benny Hinn, do you know who that is?

37:49>> Yeah.

37:49>> Oh, yeah, okay, okay. Uh he Benny Hinn

37:52gave a uh

37:54healing on TV one time, right? This

37:56woman

37:57uh is at Kosta's church,

37:59and she's walking up to him and saying,

38:02your your uncle healed me.

38:05And but I don't believe he's

38:07he's like a true prophet.

38:10Okay? And so

38:12Kosta's like, oh, wow, you know, like,

38:14well, praise God that you were healed.

38:15But she's telling him this story. And

38:17she said that And this is by third

38:21me hearing it through a like an

38:23interview, right? So, I'm going to

38:25summarize it. But basically, he was

38:28giving a a a calling for healing through

38:30the TV, and she goes and she basically

38:31walks up on the TV, and she had some

38:33sort of ailment that she got healed

38:35from.

38:36>> Mhm.

38:36>> And here's what people don't realize. If

38:39a false prophet heals you, what does

38:41that mean

38:43when you get your healing?

38:45Hypothetically speaking, how would you

38:47answer that? If if somebody

38:50came and and

38:52preached a a let's say they preach a

38:54false gospel, a false Christ, but you

38:57had a supernatural experience that

38:59affirmed what they were saying.

39:00>> Mhm.

39:01I would say that their faith made them

39:02well.

39:03>> Their faith did make him well. But

39:05there's also what a lot of people forget

39:08is

39:09now that they've been healed, they now

39:11look at this person

39:13>> Yes.

39:13>> as a prophet of God.

39:14>> Mhm.

39:15>> But they're not.

39:16>> Mhm.

39:16>> So, Deuteronomy 18 talks about this.

39:19Um

39:20you know, it warns against a cult going

39:22after occultic beliefs and pagan

39:24practices. But there's also another

39:26warning about those who are false

39:28prophets who prophesy and say things

39:30that happen, but they lead you after

39:32other gods. Do not follow them.

39:34>> Mhm.

39:35>> And then Matthew 7,

39:37one thing that just hit me between the

39:39eyes in in this conversation was that

39:42Jesus

39:44is sitting there talking to people who

39:46are going up to him saying,

39:48"But Jesus, we we proph- esied in your

39:50name. We healed in your name. We did

39:52this and that and all these wonderful

39:54signs, wonders, and miracles in your

39:55name." And he looks at them and says,

39:57"Begone from me. I never knew you."

39:59>> Mhm.

39:59>> Like that should terrify us.

40:00>> Mhm.

40:01>> So, yeah, like that should that should

40:03be terrifying. In other words, there's a

40:04version of false

40:06wonders, false

40:08healings, false signs, false versions of

40:11these things that I think that a lot of

40:13people don't take into an account. It

40:15doesn't verify the person saying or

40:18giving. You have to test the fruit and a

40:20lot of people think that fruit is either

40:23the good things that you do, which is

40:24not true cuz look at the Pharisees. They

40:26did a lot of good works, but Jesus

40:28condemned them the most not because

40:32they were Pharisees, not because they

40:34were religious. It was because they were

40:36prideful. They refused to come to him

40:39for salvation. They were hypocrites. And

40:42so that's the idea is that

40:44to test to test fruit means to test it

40:46against truth and scripture.

40:49And if you have people telling you to

40:51deny reality in order to

40:54you know, believe what they're teaching

40:55and says, "Hey, scripture is scripture's

40:58there, but they're twisting it, right?"

41:00They're They're giving you this diluted

41:01version of what scripture says.

41:04They're taking away your ability to test

41:06what's true.

41:08So, that's my caution. Wouldn't you say

41:11to that fruit is love, joy, peace,

41:13patience, kindness, goodness, meekness,

41:14and stuff? But also what do you do when

41:16you have people that have what looks

41:19like that? Again, I come from the New

41:20Thought movement. I have a lot of New

41:22Agers

41:23that go out and they they would say that

41:25they have the fruits of the spirit.

41:26Right? That's the idea. It's like,

41:28"Okay, anybody can be a good person."

41:31But you're right. Like there's an

41:32element of the gifts of the Holy Spirit

41:35that take it to a different level that

41:37it overflows from you. And if if this is

41:39something that

41:41you know, you're talking about fruits,

41:42it's again, it comes back to the basis

41:44of what's true about reality and

41:46corresponds with scripture.

41:47>> I want to take a quick minute and tell

41:49you about a devotional book that I just

41:50wrote. It's called the Gratitude Reset.

41:52And the reason why I'm so passionate

41:53about this book is because all of the

41:55lessons I learned in the battle that I

41:57had with anxiety are now put into this

41:59book. All of the scriptures that I could

42:00find on anxiety all came back to one

42:02solution and that was prayers of

42:04gratitude. So, in this devotional book

42:05you're going to get those scriptures.

42:06You're going to get a lesson, but then

42:07you're also going to journal out what

42:09you're grateful for. You're going to A

42:10the burdens that you're going to give to

42:11Jesus cuz we're called to cast our cares

42:13onto him cuz he cares for us. And then

42:15you're going to pray for others as well

42:16because anxiety is inward focused.

42:18Instead of looking at others and saying,

42:20"How can I bless them? How can I get my

42:22mind on the serving people?" And then

42:24you're going to jot down notes that

42:25Jesus gives you. So, I would love it if

42:26you could check this out. The link will

42:28be in the show notes or you can go to

42:29the Jesus People

42:30Movement.com/thegratitudereset.

42:32>> Amen. Yeah, I I think

42:34we have the gift of the scriptures which

42:36>> Mhm.

42:36>> is the revelation of Jesus and that is

42:39[clears throat] truth. And it everything

42:41needs to be tested against that. And I

42:43think so often we can come to Jesus for

42:45the the good things that the the shiny

42:48things, the prophecy and the miracles

42:50>> Well, in this

42:51>> him because

42:52I mean, when he says depart from me, I

42:54never knew you. That word knew it means

42:56intercourse.

42:56>> Mhm.

42:57>> I never abide in you. We never had this

43:00intimacy in relationship. And so

43:04you're right. Like all of like

43:06um

43:07I [clears throat] I remember my my buddy

43:09um Bryce Crawford. Do you know Bryce?

43:11>> I know of him.

43:12>> Okay, yeah. So, so he was in Salem,

43:15Massachusetts last year and this guy

43:17came running up to him basically saying,

43:18"These witches healed me."

43:20And and he's like, "My back pain's

43:22gone."

43:23And Bryce was like, "Yeah, well, I mean,

43:25the the demonic has access to some of

43:28that stuff, too.

43:28>> Mhm.

43:29>> But it's not the truth. And so, I think

43:30when you're

43:31And and even even we look at the

43:32scriptures

43:34um Pharaoh's sorcerers did miracles.

43:38And so, if you're coming to this faith

43:41in pursuit of the miracles, you could

43:43get tripped up because you could do all

43:45the things and still get the depart from

43:47me, I never knew you cuz that wasn't the

43:49real me.

43:49>> Mhm.

43:50>> What would you what would you say to

43:51that?

43:53>> That you're exactly right. I think that

43:55there's that's where the trick is

43:56because there's an element there of one

44:00of testing it and that's really where I

44:02would give the most caution. It's like

44:03if you don't you don't go and trust what

44:06somebody is saying because you had this

44:08spiritual experience.

44:09Or else me going into the occult

44:13would not have been an issue at all. I

44:15had experience and

44:16that's the idea. It's like if if you're

44:18if you're having all this stuff and

44:19having access to all to this spiritual

44:22realm and you're not realizing that

44:24you're being deceived in it, then you

44:26will you will go deceive others. And

44:29I think that's really where it is and I

44:31think that's really what trips people up

44:33is that they they want to do what Jesus

44:35says and they think they're doing what

44:36Jesus says, but they're being kept from

44:39knowing their scriptures. Here's the

44:41problem.

44:43If God

44:45speaks to me directly, why would I want

44:47to go read my Bible?

44:49>> Yeah.

44:51Well, I'm yeah.

44:52>> You know what I mean? It's like why

44:53would I look that dusty book? Yep, mhm,

44:56that's that's I read it and I read it a

44:58lot, but God speaks personally to me.

45:01He's going to tell me exactly what he

45:03wants me to do with my life every second

45:05of the day. Why do I why should I? And

45:07they would never say it out loud out

45:08loud, but that's the implication is why

45:11would I go and and research and study

45:13and and know the hermeneutic of

45:14scripture and draw from the text the

45:17meaning of that verse because that's why

45:20we have scripture.

45:22Who is God and who is our relationship

45:24to him? It's a story of reality. That's

45:26what my friend Greg Kokl says. He wrote

45:27a book called The Story of Reality and

45:30this is exactly what it's about. It's

45:31the beginning to the end, the idea of

45:34how and why the Christian worldview

45:36makes sense with reality. Why are things

45:39the way they are, right?

45:41And so the idea is that if you're if

45:43you're reading it, but you're making the

45:46story about you, you're missing the

45:49point. The scripture is to know who God

45:51is and if we know who he is, then he

45:53will know how he is in a relationship

45:55with us. And the other example I like to

45:57give with this is um

46:00you know, I I ask God all the time for

46:03guidance, for [clears throat] help.

46:07You know, God use my mind, use this,

46:08whatever it is. But I almost find that,

46:11you know how you're talking about fear

46:13earlier? This is what came to me when

46:15you were talking about this. As an

46:17example that I give of like a child on a

46:19playground, right? So imagine a child on

46:22a playground, there's a big boundary

46:23around it, a big fence.

46:24And

46:26there's there's things that they can

46:28play with. They can play that the father

46:30tells them, you can play with whatever

46:31you want. Just stay within the boundary,

46:33okay? But the child keeps coming back to

46:36the dad saying, well, can I play on

46:37this? How how fast can I play on the

46:40swing? Can I run fast over here? What

46:42about the grass? Can I play in the

46:43grass? Can I pull the grass?

46:45Um can I throw the rock over here? And

46:46this dad's just like, son,

46:48>> Yeah.

46:50>> here is your boundary. Go choose

46:53whatever you want to play with, okay? I

46:55feel like we do the same thing with God.

46:57God, can I do this? Can I do this?

46:59Should I do this? Can I do this? Can I

47:00talk to this person? Should I do this?

47:02Can I

47:03And that I think has a lot to do with us

47:06having a fear

47:08of doing the wrong thing, of making a

47:10mistake. Because scripture is a

47:12boundary. It says here, here's what a

47:14good spouse looks like, for example.

47:17Stay within the boundaries of this and

47:20go choose a spouse.

47:22Otherwise, somebody from somebody might

47:24tell you, that's the person God told me

47:26you're supposed to marry them, and then

47:27they do, and then they end up with a

47:29terrible marriage.

47:30>> Yeah.

47:30>> You know, again, this is the Shawn Bolz

47:31situation all over again.

47:33Um I think there's an element of

47:35mindfulness. Like we Not in that sense.

47:37That sounded Not like new age

47:39mindfulness. There's an element of of

47:41using our mind and bringing it into

47:43understanding scripture without fear.

47:45>> Right, right. Yeah, and it doesn't mean

47:47that you shouldn't ask the Lord

47:48permission for things. It doesn't mean

47:49that you should be asking the Lord like,

47:51what are you up to this week? Yeah, what

47:52are you up to this week? Like like what

47:54what like what do you have for me today?

47:56Hey, I'm going to this coffee meeting.

47:58Is there anything you want to let me

47:59know, Lord? You know, guide me. Always

48:01being in that position of yieldedness.

48:04And then he might give you a word. He

48:06might give you that still small voice of

48:07something. But if that falls outside of

48:09the scriptures and what he's clearly

48:11laid out for us in the foundation of

48:13truth, which is his word, then you throw

48:15it in the trash. It wasn't from the

48:16Lord.

48:17>> Yeah, so let me ask you a question about

48:19this then because I tend to not go

48:21looking for it, right? I'm like, all

48:23right, well, if this comes up, then it

48:24comes up.

48:25So, okay, still still small voice.

48:28How do you know if what you're hearing

48:30is from the Lord?

48:32How do you test that?

48:33>> I think

48:34>> Cuz I I don't think that God speaks

48:37ambiguously. I think that we'll know

48:39exactly if he's saying something that

48:41we'll know. So, how would you test that?

48:43>> Well, I think you test it a few ways. I

48:45think it has to be tested in two or

48:48three witnesses. And I think it has to

48:49be tested by the word of God.

48:51>> you mean by two or three witnesses?

48:52>> Well, there's a principle in the Old

48:53Testament that a matter is established

48:55by two or three witnesses.

48:56And so I think the the scriptures are

48:57clear that we're the the like let's go

49:00back 30,000 ft. Like what are the what

49:01are the gifts of the spirit for? It's

49:03the building up of the body. It's really

49:05not about you at all. It's to encourage

49:06the believer. And so I I think that it

49:09has to be tested by the word of God. It

49:11has to be tested by I think peace. Like

49:15if there's peace on something. I think

49:16it has to be tested by

49:18if someone has a track record of hearing

49:21from the Lord, then I think you can

49:23trust them more. So, for example, I um

49:26>> Same on the other side.

49:27>> Yeah, if they have a track record of

49:29steering people away.

49:30>> Prophecy darts.

49:31>> Yeah, prophecy.

49:32>> [laughter]

49:32>> Because you're right. And here's the

49:33other thing too. I'll be I'll be really

49:34honest with you guys. I was testing

49:37hearing from the Holy Spirit.

49:39I I would go up to people that I knew.

49:43Like I I I have discernment when it

49:46comes to young men. Like the Lord's

49:48given me a gift of discernment. So, I I

49:50look at a dude and be like bad dad.

49:52Clearly bad dad. Just just by the way

49:54that they kind of

49:55>> How would you test that?

49:57>> Well, I I don't know. That's the thing.

49:58I don't know. But, what I would do early

50:00on is I would And again, this is

50:02discernment. I'm not I'm not necessarily

50:04saying the Lord is giving me insight to

50:06that person.

50:06>> Yeah.

50:07>> I'm just saying I've done enough

50:08mentorship. I've been around enough

50:10dudes. I can just kind of see if a dude

50:12is insecure and it's coming from a

50:14father wound.

50:14>> Oh, I kind of think I know what you're

50:15saying. It's kind of like a I remember a

50:17friend who's a former drug addict.

50:18>> Yeah.

50:19>> Yeah, right. And they're going around

50:20and they're like, oh, that dude used to

50:21do drugs. I can tell. Right? Where it's

50:23like because you've been there, you can

50:24kind of

50:25>> Yeah, and I'm not saying I had a bad

50:26dad, but I think just being in ministry

50:27to young men for so long, I think I had

50:29discernment. I think I pimped that out.

50:32And and I used the Lord's name on it

50:34sometimes.

50:35>> What do you What do you mean? What do

50:36you What do you say?

50:36>> I would I would go up to them and say,

50:37"Hey, the Lord told me something about

50:39your dad. Your dad you you know, you

50:41didn't have a good dad growing up."

50:41>> Oh, I see what you're saying.

50:42>> And so, I think I've played with that.

50:45And I think um what I would say for me

50:47personally is I think anytime you go up

50:50to someone and share

50:51the Lord said like this is what the

50:52Lord's given me. That's a scary thing to

50:54say unless you unless you caveat that

50:57thing. You're like, "Hey, I was praying.

50:59I felt like the people to me I felt like

51:01the Lord said you should do a podcast."

51:03Beautiful. You know, I'm going to take

51:05that

51:06and I'm going to be like, okay, great.

51:08If this doesn't get established, if this

51:09is not true to God's word and true to

51:11his character, which I know from his

51:12word. If this isn't coming to me from

51:14multiple sources,

51:16I'm going to throw it in the trash. Or

51:17I'm just going to leave it and see if he

51:18confirms it.

51:20And um the other thing I would say too

51:21is learning to hear the voice of the

51:23shepherd, you know, like uh

51:26I saw this video on Instagram the other

51:28day where um these tourists

51:30>> Mhm.

51:31>> they um they went to this

51:34this shepherd's I don't know, ranch or

51:36farm or whatever.

51:37And the guy was like, "Hey, call out.

51:39Call out the at the sheep." And so,

51:40they're like, "Sheep, come here. Come

51:41over here."

51:42>> They don't only listen to the shepherd.

51:44>> listen to the shepherd. So, I think I

51:46have I've been in

51:48constant discernment.

51:50Like, Lord, is that from you? Like, and

51:53and I think as I have

51:55as I've I've explored that and trying to

51:57understand his still small voice,

51:59um I've learned how he speaks to me.

52:03Like, like we we moved to Texas because

52:06I was sitting at a coffee meeting and it

52:08felt like the Lord tapped me on the

52:09shoulder and said, "You're going to move

52:10soon."

52:10>> Mhm.

52:11>> And I'm not going to move cuz I heard

52:14you know, cuz I had felt the prompting,

52:15you know, like that's a big decision.

52:17>> Yeah.

52:17>> And so, I just tucked it in my back

52:18pocket and

52:20the next night my wife like sits me down

52:23and she goes and and again, she is a

52:25tracker cuz my wife is not a the Lord

52:27told me so type of person constantly,

52:29but when she says, "Hey, I was praying

52:31and I got this scripture or I got this

52:33thought," it's I've learned you better

52:35listen to Annie cuz it's spot-on. And

52:38she sits me down and she said, "Hey, I

52:39was praying today. I heard the Lord say,

52:41'You're going to move soon.'"

52:42And I go, "Frick."

52:44>> [laughter]

52:45>> Cuz I'm like, I don't want to move.

52:47>> Yeah.

52:47>> That [snorts] like no way. And then she

52:50said, "Okay, Lord,

52:51confirm it through a scripture."

52:53He said, "Go to Jeremiah 6." She opened

52:55Jeremiah 6. It's at flee for your

52:57safety.

52:58>> Mhm.

52:58>> And so, I think that I have learned to

53:01discern his still small voice. And um

53:05I'm in constant discernment of that

53:06still small voice, but I think it's also

53:08really dangerous to go up to someone and

53:10say the Lord told me you're going to

53:11move.

53:12>> Mhm.

53:12>> And unless unless that comes with high

53:14trust, unless that comes with a person.

53:16Like, I've got certain people in my life

53:19that are very prophetic that when when

53:21they say something, I will I will take

53:23it with more weight and I will take it

53:24to the Lord.

53:25>> Mhm.

53:26>> And so, what do you make of all that?

53:28>> Oh, well, for me I I have I have

53:30different experiences. I suppose that

53:33for me I like to think things through.

53:36Like, if I had like if my husband came

53:38to me and said, "Hey, I've been thinking

53:40about maybe moving," right? I mean, we

53:42would pray about it and think about it,

53:45though. I think there's an element of

53:47of choice in the believer's life

53:50that

53:53with our reasoning capabilities we'd be

53:55able to think through. Well, first, is

53:56this from God? And second,

53:58uh

53:59the idea of him blessing anything that

54:02we do already,

54:03right? I think is is really a part of

54:05it. So, I think there's a contentment

54:07that I have in my walk with God that I'm

54:09like, "Well, if it's from you, I'll

54:10know." Right? Like, if if if it's from

54:12you, it'll happen. And there's a lot of

54:15trust and faith and contentment in my

54:18walk. And I think that that's it's funny

54:20cuz my best friend,

54:22she's a little bit more, I want to say

54:24more charismatic than me. She's had a

54:26lot of really interesting spiritual

54:27experiences. She's chronically ill, too.

54:30And her background was in the New

54:32Thought as well. We always called each

54:35other ex-New Agers, but now we know

54:36better. We're actually ex-New Thought.

54:38And she's trying to heal herself. Okay?

54:40And there were elements to her

54:42experience that were very spiritual.

54:46She had very personal, I will not share

54:48her personal spiritual experiences, but

54:50it's just interesting to me how some

54:53Christians do have a little bit more of

54:55a sensitivity in that regard cuz she is

54:57she is one of the sharpest thinkers.

55:01But,

55:02the way that she walks with the Lord is

55:06the way that she walks with the Lord,

55:08right? But, there's also for me an

55:12understanding of, "Well, and this is

55:14what got me in trouble to begin with."

55:15The lust at This is what I'm talking

55:17about in the beginning. If you hear from

55:19the Lord every day, right? And you're

55:21confident in that. Pretend for a second

55:23that I'm just

55:25feeling like, "Why doesn't God talk to

55:26me that way?"

55:27>> Right. Well, that's when it's elevated,

55:30when it's elevated above communion, then

55:32people feel like I'm a I'm a C-class

55:35Christian.

55:36>> Christian cuz I don't speak in tongues,

55:38because I don't hear from the Lord like

55:40sister super Deborah does, and I don't

55:42go to the third heaven like Jimmy over

55:45here does. And it's like you it's this

55:47comparison game, and it really is kind

55:49of dangerous. And then the problem is

55:52this, and this is where I would caution

55:53cessationists, is that there really is

55:56room for the Holy Spirit to move, and we

55:59shouldn't shove on that, right? Just

56:02because it's been abused.

56:03>> Yeah.

56:04>> And that's my caution is that whenever

56:06it's there, you actually have this

56:07community of like beautiful charismatic

56:09believers who do I mean we're amongst

56:12ourselves right now in that right now,

56:14where there's they're everywhere. Like

56:15you have people who have beliefs of the

56:19gifts of the spirit that might be a

56:21little bit different from maybe mine or

56:23somebody else's, but the idea is is that

56:25there's a communion there.

56:27>> We're a body.

56:28>> like yes, I don't feel like I'm I'm I'm

56:31less than. This is going to sound really

56:32dumb, but have you ever Okay, you have

56:34four kids. Have you ever seen the movie

56:36Tinkerbell?

56:38>> No.

56:39Sorry.

56:40>> Ryan, go away. No, I'm just kidding. But

56:42like but okay, the reason why I'm

56:44bringing it up. Do you do you have girls

56:46like little girls? Okay, the

56:48I don't know. I might get flak for this,

56:49but I loved that movie, and I think

56:52there's actually a really good spiritual

56:55story

56:56>> Oh, yeah.

56:56>> in it.

56:57>> Yeah, yeah.

56:57>> Because I'm going to ruin the plot for

56:58you, but Tinkerbell

57:00Tinkerbell is I know, I'm going to ruin

57:02it for you.

57:04She's becoming a a fairy, and she has to

57:07accept

57:08that she is a tinker fairy. And to her

57:11that's just

57:12That is not fancy. I want to be a water

57:15fairy. I want to be a flower fairy, a

57:17light fairy. So she's trying all these

57:20things to become something she's not,

57:23because what she actually is and and

57:25what she's made to be is unimpressive.

57:28And that's kind of how it feels in the

57:29body sometimes, is that we all have

57:31these different gifts.

57:32>> Mhm.

57:33>> Um I do tend to be a little bit more

57:34cerebral. I love apologetics. I love the

57:37arts. I love satire. I love all these

57:40wonderful things that make me me. And

57:43it's embracing that.

57:44>> Amen.

57:45>> Yeah, it's embracing that. And then you

57:46have another Christian who might be more

57:48sensitive.

57:49>> Mhm.

57:49>> Who might be exhortation, might have a

57:51different gift.

57:52>> Yeah.

57:53>> And I think that's the beauty of it.

57:54>> Totally.

57:55>> All of this can be abused.

57:57>> Mhm.

57:57>> Right? And I I I want to base it on what

58:00the what the scriptures say. Um in its

58:04entirety, not based on the abuses of it,

58:06you know?

58:07>> Right. Yeah, abuse doesn't nullify

58:08proper use. And the proper use in the

58:11book of Acts is they had all things in

58:13common. They were devoting themselves to

58:15the apostles' teaching, the breaking

58:16bread, and the prayers. And signs and

58:17miracles broke out.

58:19>> Mhm.

58:19>> But it was never about the signs and

58:20miracles, it was about Jesus, and it was

58:22about the community. It was about people

58:23coming together in unity and oneness.

58:25>> Mhm.

58:26>> And, you know, I I went to this uh very

58:29charismatic meeting.

58:31Like, I'm talking, dude, this was This

58:33was one of those where it was like,

58:35"Whoa, we're here."

58:35>> lit up, huh?

58:36>> Yeah. And so I walk in, and um I mean,

58:40it was everything minus the flags. They

58:42didn't have the flags.

58:43>> Oh, they didn't dance with the flags?

58:44>> They didn't have the flags. Which I mean

58:45>> Oh, at the Kenneth Copeland conference,

58:46they're all dancing with them.

58:47>> Oh, really?

58:48>> Yeah. They have good worship.

58:49>> flags are great, you know? You do your

58:51flags. Um

58:53I I don't Why are we Why are they into

58:54flags? Like I I just

58:56>> Worship is You know, you're charismatic.

58:58Um worship's very important in uh

59:01particularly in like Bethel, um even at

59:04It depends on the charismatic

59:05conference, but it's an expression of

59:07worship. Um you're getting in the

59:09spirit.

59:09>> Okay.

59:10>> Yeah, the arts are very big.

59:11>> Run it. Yeah, let the flags let the

59:13flags fly. Um but But okay, so I'm I'm

59:16at this super charismatic meeting. I

59:18walk in.

59:19It's going off, you know, people are

59:21going off. And I'm down. I'm like, "All

59:23right."

59:23>> They have a mosh pit?

59:24>> No, they did have a circle, though. And

59:26I got invited into the middle of the

59:28circle.

59:29The uh

59:30um the guy leading it, he goes, "Big guy

59:33with the hat, come here." And I'm like,

59:35"Let's go. I'm in." And so like I go and

59:38he he looks at me and he goes, "Do you

59:39speak in tongues?"

59:40And I go, "No, but I really want to."

59:43And I'm being genuine. I really really

59:45want to speak in tongues. Never spoken

59:47in tongues. I wanted to speak in

59:48tongues. And he goes, "Okay, you're

59:50going to speak in tongues. Suzy, come

59:51here. Jackie, come here." Like so he's

59:53bringing people and they're laying hands

59:54on me.

59:56And they all start speaking in tongues.

59:58And so it's like

59:59bananas around me. And

1:00:02he goes and he goes around the circle

1:00:05and he starts touching foreheads and

1:00:06people are falling.

1:00:08And I'm like, "I'll fall." Like

1:00:11>> [laughter]

1:00:11>> Wait, wait, wait, did you fake it,

1:00:12though? Did you

1:00:13>> No, I was like, "I'll fall, but I'm not

1:00:16courtesy falling for you."

1:00:17And I'm like, "I got a pretty strong

1:00:19core." So like this guy he goes so he

1:00:21gets around the circle and then he gets

1:00:23to me and I'm right in the middle, dude.

1:00:24I'm in the eye of the storm and that's

1:00:25going this hurricane was like brewing.

1:00:28And so he comes up to me

1:00:30and he starts doing his tongues and I so

1:00:32it's like I'm like surrounded by

1:00:35the stuff. And then he like goes, "Fire

1:00:37of the Holy Ghost." and like puts his

1:00:39hand on my head and I go like this.

1:00:41And I'm like, "Oh, strong neck." I'm

1:00:43like and but I'm seriously I'm like I'm

1:00:46I was totally ready. I was ready. I'd

1:00:49never I mean I

1:00:51I'd never fallen before, but I'm just

1:00:53standing there like this.

1:00:54>> [laughter]

1:00:55>> And the dude's pushing on my head and

1:00:57and then he finally just gave up. And I

1:00:59left that meeting and I was like

1:01:01>> And I was like

1:01:03"What's wrong with me?" And I

1:01:05Well, for a second I caught it. I caught

1:01:07it for a second.

1:01:08And I turned to my buddy and I was like

1:01:11"That was weird."

1:01:13And and he gave some good wise counsel.

1:01:14He's like, "Listen, like

1:01:16there's abuses in every context and and

1:01:19I'm not even saying that was abuse. I

1:01:21don't I don't know. I don't know if they

1:01:23courtesy fell or I don't know like I'd

1:01:25love to talk to some of them people and

1:01:26be like what

1:01:28>> probably would be in favor of them

1:01:30>> courtesy falling.

1:01:32>> Psychosomatics says

1:01:33>> I didn't courtesy fall. I didn't fall at

1:01:34all. And so but it did create a little

1:01:37bit of shame in me. It created a little

1:01:39bit of like huh I wonder what that was

1:01:41and then I came back. So I've I've

1:01:44really kind of explored a lot of this

1:01:45stuff and then I have heard from Holy

1:01:47Spirit. I've never heard audibly. I've

1:01:50heard in different languages before I

1:01:51woke up and I've had to go and like

1:01:54like what are they saying and look it up

1:01:56and it's exactly what God prophesied

1:01:58over me the day before. So I've

1:01:59encountered cool stuff like that but

1:02:01then I've also encountered the neck

1:02:03workout you know. So

1:02:05>> [laughter]

1:02:05>> so this is this is an interesting

1:02:07conversation for me because I agree like

1:02:09we're a body and that's so beautiful

1:02:11that you're coming to this with order

1:02:14and I think you're calling the church to

1:02:15order.

1:02:16>> Mhm.

1:02:16>> And you're saying hey listen I've seen

1:02:19the new thought and I've seen the new

1:02:20age and we're dabbling here.

1:02:22>> Yeah.

1:02:22>> And well then you have churches that are

1:02:23like rolling out the red carpet and

1:02:26wanting to welcome new age practices

1:02:29because they think that there's a

1:02:30Christian version of it.

1:02:31>> Mhm.

1:02:32>> New thought and new age.

1:02:33>> Mhm.

1:02:34>> And I I mean I'm talking spirit guides,

1:02:36power objects, clairvoyants.

1:02:39>> Yeah no more.

1:02:39>> Because they think that and this is

1:02:42where the NAR comes in and this is where

1:02:43it gets very concerning because the idea

1:02:46is that it all has to do with their

1:02:48eschatology. You literally have to bring

1:02:50heaven to earth literally.

1:02:52>> Mhm.

1:02:52>> And the way to do that is through signs,

1:02:53wonders, and miracles and so if you

1:02:56don't have heaven you have to literally

1:02:59have to bring heaven to earth. So let me

1:03:00ask you if heaven's being brought to

1:03:02earth is there death in heaven?

1:03:04>> No.

1:03:05>> Is there sickness?

1:03:06>> Mhm.

1:03:06>> Is there poverty?

1:03:07>> No.

1:03:08>> Then there ought not be here on earth.

1:03:09That's the mindset.

1:03:10>> Yeah that's slippery.

1:03:11>> It that sounds like you could you could

1:03:14tease that out Yes. That's why it's so

1:03:16important for people to know your

1:03:18Bibles, to read your Bibles, to

1:03:19understand good theology.

1:03:21>> into the leaders

1:03:22>> Yeah.

1:03:23>> that are pushing against this stuff.

1:03:25Because that's how you bring heaven to

1:03:26earth through signs, wonders, and

1:03:27miracles. So, if you don't have it, you

1:03:29manufacture it.

1:03:30>> Yeah.

1:03:31>> They want it so bad. They are hungry for

1:03:32it.

1:03:33>> Yeah.

1:03:33>> So, that's where you find the courtesy

1:03:35followers, right? Or it's like, we want

1:03:36this, we want this so bad. And so, it's

1:03:39it's it's it's I mean, I guess it's

1:03:41well-intended, but the idea is that if

1:03:43it's you're wanting something that's not

1:03:45biblical.

1:03:45>> Mhm.

1:03:46>> And so, they're chasing after this

1:03:47cloud.

1:03:47>> Mhm.

1:03:48>> And it's a waste. Um I think that

1:03:50there's a lot of good people that with

1:03:51good minds and good hearts that would be

1:03:53a great asset. But yeah, they're chasing

1:03:56after a cloud without water.

1:03:59>> Ooh, that's a bar.

1:04:01>> Um

1:04:02>> That is a bar.

1:04:02>> Yeah.

1:04:04So, I one thing you said earlier I want

1:04:06to touch on is you said um I forget the

1:04:08exact language you put it, but you said

1:04:10we never want to um

1:04:14call out this

1:04:16uh

1:04:17heresy uh with by demonizing people.

1:04:21>> Oh, yeah.

1:04:22>> Say more about that.

1:04:22>> Oh, I am

1:04:24I think it's so silly that I get pushed

1:04:26back for this. And I shouldn't and I

1:04:28don't care.

1:04:29>> Mhm.

1:04:29>> I do not care that I get pushed back for

1:04:31this because it is biblical and good

1:04:35to look at every human being like they

1:04:37are made in the image of God.

1:04:39>> Mhm.

1:04:39>> Even if you disagree with them.

1:04:41>> Mhm.

1:04:41>> Um even if they're hateful.

1:04:44If they're awful, terrible people, I

1:04:46don't care. Because once you start

1:04:48dehumanizing people,

1:04:52then you become

1:04:53the awful one. You become the enemy. You

1:04:56can then call them names. You can you

1:04:58can

1:05:00you can justify a lot of terrible things

1:05:01yourself if you dehumanize somebody.

1:05:03>> Mhm.

1:05:04>> Um and so, I I take the route of people

1:05:08that I disagree with, I will firmly

1:05:10disagree with. And I'll have reasons for

1:05:12that.

1:05:13>> Um but I will always pray

1:05:16that they find truth.

1:05:19And and that's the good thing The other

1:05:21thing to understand is that being made

1:05:22in the image of God does not then equal

1:05:24your child of God. You have to become a

1:05:26new creation. You have to Yeah, like I

1:05:29believe you can be saved and in error.

1:05:31But if you are saved, the Holy Spirit

1:05:33should be able to guide you into truth.

1:05:35You should be able to be corrected.

1:05:37>> That's important.

1:05:38>> Yes. And if you're in a critical

1:05:41environment where everybody's going to

1:05:43criticize you no matter what, get out.

1:05:45But if you're also in an environment

1:05:47where nobody can be criticized,

1:05:48especially your leaders, get out. You

1:05:50know what I mean? Um there should be

1:05:52this welcoming of of

1:05:54of questions, of testing your beliefs,

1:05:57scriptural studies. We should be able to

1:05:59do this. Um but I also want people to

1:06:02have confidence

1:06:03that if you're saved and born again,

1:06:06this is a biblical mandate. You are

1:06:09biblically mandated to test what you

1:06:11believe.

1:06:11>> Yeah.

1:06:12>> And so

1:06:13in the in the course of that though,

1:06:15what I what I would hope people would do

1:06:17is understand that if you disagree with

1:06:19somebody

1:06:21that does not mean

1:06:23that you have to just beat them over the

1:06:25head with your Bible. I I I think that

1:06:28even evangelists, right?

1:06:29>> Without love, we have nothing.

1:06:30>> If we don't have love, we have nothing.

1:06:32And I think that there's

1:06:35In my book, it's funny. I make it like

1:06:37this um

1:06:39chart of the excesses, right? The

1:06:42pendulum that people go into. Is that

1:06:46if it's true, it doesn't matter how you

1:06:47say it.

1:06:48You can be unloving as long as it's

1:06:50truthful.

1:06:50>> Yeah.

1:06:51>> And then as long as it's loving, it

1:06:52doesn't matter if it's true.

1:06:53>> Right.

1:06:54>> And I'm just No. That's Neither is

1:06:57helpful.

1:06:57>> Yeah, truth without love is harsh, but

1:06:59love without truth is hollow.

1:07:01>> Yeah. And my point is though is that we

1:07:03should love truth enough to know it and

1:07:06love people enough to share it.

1:07:08>> Amen.

1:07:09>> Yeah.

1:07:09>> Well, plug the book. What's the book

1:07:10called? Where can we get

1:07:11>> Lies.

1:07:12>> Happy Lies?

1:07:13>> Yeah, it's called Happy Lies. How a

1:07:14movement you've probably never heard of

1:07:16shaped our self-obsessed world.

1:07:18>> Wow.

1:07:19>> Yeah, and every chapter goes over

1:07:21a different part of society and in the

1:07:24church specifically of where New Thought

1:07:26is. I start with the history, which I

1:07:28love. It's so geeky. I love it.

1:07:30Um and then I go into relativism and

1:07:32postmodernism, how you have to have a

1:07:35fluid view to even believe in New

1:07:37Thought. Um and then from there I go

1:07:40into all the other areas that it shows

1:07:42up. My goal is to put a stone in

1:07:44people's shoe to get them to think about

1:07:46it. I have a whole chapter on the Word

1:07:48of Faith movement and progressive

1:07:49Christianity as well, how it just

1:07:51intertwines with it.

1:07:52>> Amazing.

1:07:52>> Yeah.

1:07:53>> Amazing.

1:07:54Well, go check out Happy Lies. Melissa,

1:07:56where can we find you?

1:07:57>> Uh I'm on Instagram, YouTube, Facebook,

1:07:59wherever wherever your socials are.

1:08:01>> Just Melissa Dougherty?

1:08:02>> Yep. Yeah. Just my name.

1:08:05Yeah.

1:08:05>> Well, thank you for being with us. God

1:08:06bless you. You have an important lane in

1:08:08the kingdom of God and I'm grateful for

1:08:10it. Um thanks for being with us on the

1:08:12Jesus People podcast. Yeah, we'll see

1:08:14you guys next week on the Jesus People.