The Science of Self Control: Find Motivation, Increase Your Focus, and Hack Dopamine

0:00Today we're talking about how to get

0:02motivated even when you don't feel like

0:05it with the world's number one expert on

0:07dopamine. Dr. Anna Lumpky is a professor

0:10and the medical director of addiction

0:12medicine at Stanford University School

0:15of Medicine. What is dopamine and why is

0:17it important?

0:18>> Dopamine is a chemical that we make in

0:20our brain. Dopamine has many different

0:23functions, but one of its most important

0:25functions is in pleasure, reward, and

0:29motivation. It makes us the ultimate

0:31seekers. Never satisfied with what we

0:34have, always wanting more.

0:36>> You're saying that [music] in modern

0:38life, especially with a phone,

0:40especially with so many things [music]

0:42that give you quick little novel hit,

0:44boom, boom, boom, boom. We are so out of

0:47whack. Whether it's substances or

0:49behaviors or work or relationships,

0:52we've made it more accessible, more

0:55potent, more novel, such that now we're

0:59vulnerable to get addicted to just about

1:02anything. Drugs and alcohol, all kinds

1:04of behaviors, gambling, social media,

1:07video games, online shopping. People can

1:10get addicted to other people. [music]

1:11Really? Yes.

1:14To be happier, to experience more joy,

1:19we [music] need to do the

1:20counterintuitive thing of moderating and

1:23greatly reducing our [music] use of

1:25instantaneous

1:27easy pleasures. By the end of the

1:29conversation, you can get out of the

1:32vortex of compulsive overconumption and

1:35get to a place where you're not

1:37constantly seeking these rewards, but

1:40instead really showing up for your life.

1:44Okay, before we jump in with the number

1:47one dopamine expert in the world and

1:49talk all things motivation, my team was

1:51showing me something. 57% of you who

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2:27keep bringing them to you here. Thank

2:29you. Thank you. Thank you. All righty.

2:30You ready? Let's get motivated and jump

2:33in. Please help me welcome Dr. Anna

2:35Lumpkkey to the Mel Robbins podcast.

2:38>> Thank you for inviting me. I'm

2:39absolutely delighted to be here.

2:41>> Dr. Dr. Lumpky, could you tell me if I

2:45take everything to heart that you're

2:46about to teach me today and I truly

2:49apply all this research about dopamine

2:52and motivation and happiness and pain

2:55and pleasure centers and I apply it to

2:57my life? How could my life change?

3:00If you're like me and you're like many

3:03of my patients, you are probably

3:05unconsciously organizing your entire

3:08life around reward and little dopamine

3:11hits. From the moment we wake up in the

3:14morning, we reach for our phones. We

3:16scroll. We go get our coffee with our

3:19caffeine. We get in the car. We're

3:22listening to our music. It's not

3:24interesting. We're flipping the

3:25stations. Then we get to work and all of

3:27a sudden we have to let go of those

3:30instantaneous pleasures. Now we're like

3:32bored, we're frustrated, we're restless,

3:34we're anxious, we can't concentrate. So

3:36then we're interrupting ourselves and

3:38saying, "Oh, I better check my phone or

3:39maybe I should look at that video." And

3:41we're doing that through the entirety of

3:43the day until we get to the end of the

3:45day where we go home. We can't wait till

3:47we get there to have a glass of wine,

3:49watch our shows, eat a cupcake, and then

3:52have difficulty falling asleep at night

3:54cuz we're so wound up and restless. So,

3:56what I'm saying to you is that I hope by

3:58the end of the conversation, you can get

4:01out of the vortex of compulsive

4:03overconumption and get to a place where

4:06you're not constantly seeking these

4:09rewards, but instead really showing up

4:11for your life. Oh my god.

4:16Dr. Olymp, this is why I've been so

4:18excited to talk to you because you just

4:21explained every single one of us and

4:25we're in it and so we don't see how the

4:30constant distraction and reaching for

4:33all these things and everything you just

4:36described.

4:37So what I got already so far is that a

4:41lot of your work centers around the fact

4:43that as a human being we have this kind

4:47of natural system inside us that we will

4:50move right like a freight train towards

4:52what feels really good but we

4:54reflexively move away from anything that

4:57might feel hard. Is that kind of what

4:59you're talking about?

5:00>> Yes. Very nicely summarized.

5:02>> Okay. and your research in particular

5:05focuses on dopamine. So let's just start

5:09at the basics. What exactly

5:12is dopamine and why is it important?

5:15Okay, so dopamine is a chemical that we

5:18make in our brain. It's what's called a

5:20neurotransmitter.

5:23Neurotransmitters are the molecules that

5:26bridge the gap between neurons. Neurons

5:30are these long spindly cells that

5:32conduct electrical circuits. Our brains

5:34are fundamentally a bunch of wires.

5:37Okay? But those wires, the neurons,

5:39don't actually touch end to end. There's

5:41a little space between them. That space

5:44is called the syninnapse. Okay? And

5:46neurotransmitters

5:48bridge that gap between neurons to allow

5:51for fine-tuned control of those

5:55electrical circuits.

5:57Dopamine has many different functions,

5:59but one of its most important functions

6:02is in pleasure, reward, and motivation.

6:06Okay? Now, it's not the only

6:07neurotransmitter involved in that

6:09process, but it has become a kind of

6:12common currency for neuroscientists to

6:15measure the reinforcing potential of

6:18different substances and behaviors.

6:21Fundamentally, the more dopamine that is

6:24released in the brain's reward pathway

6:26and the faster that it's released, the

6:29more likely is that substance to be

6:31reinforcing or something that our brain

6:33recognizes as important for survival,

6:36something to approach, explore, and

6:39potentially exploit by doing it again

6:42and again. So, let me just give this

6:44back to you to see if I'm understanding

6:46this. So your brain releases these

6:49chemicals. Dopamine is one of them. And

6:52dopamine is related to motivation and

6:55pleasure.

6:56>> Yes. A more fundamental way to talk

6:59about it is it's related to

7:00reinforcement. Okay. So something that I

7:03do y

7:04>> that's often associated with pleasure

7:06but not exclusively associated with

7:08pleasure which then I want to do again

7:11and again.

7:12>> Okay. because my brain recognizes it as

7:15potentially important for survival. How

7:19important is dopamine

7:22in terms of the role that it plays when

7:26you are trying to either

7:29break and replace bad habits or create

7:33new positive habits. You see what I

7:35mean? I can understand what you're

7:37talking about because the thing the

7:38thing I immediately thought of is

7:40whenever I've heard anybody talk about

7:42something like heroin or oxycottton or

7:44something like that that first time that

7:48somebody sadly uses it there's this boom

7:51huge reward

7:53>> right

7:53>> and then

7:55experts are very clear

7:57>> that the reward or the spike that you're

8:00getting declines with every use but the

8:04poor person who is addicted is chasing

8:08that initial first spike and that

8:10feeling even though it's not coming

8:14exactly and that's often what we call

8:16euphoric recall. We tend to have this

8:19very vivid memory of initial exposure to

8:23highly emotionally potent stimuli

8:26whether pleasure or pain. our brain

8:29really remembers that and if it's

8:31pleasurable uh we marshall all of our

8:35available resources to try to get it

8:37again.

8:38>> Oh, okay. Wait a minute. So, I think

8:40that that leads us to something I saw

8:43that you covered very early in your

8:44book, which is there is this pleasure

8:47pain system that you were born with. It

8:51is in your body and there's something

8:53that you write about called the pleasure

8:55pain balance. Can you explain that a

8:59little bit?

8:59>> Yes. So, this is an extended metaphor

9:02that I use to try to explain at a very

9:06fundamental level how we process

9:09pleasure and pain. And to me, one of the

9:11really interesting findings in

9:13neuroscience is that pain and pleasure

9:16are actually colllocated in the brain.

9:19So the same parts of the brain that

9:21process pleasure also process pain and

9:24they work through what's called an

9:26opponent process mechanism.

9:28>> Okay.

9:29>> Okay. So imagine that deep in your

9:31reward pathway there is a scale or a

9:34balance something like a a teeter totter

9:36and a seesaw.

9:37>> Like a seesaw. Yes.

9:38>> Um and and when it's at rest it that

9:41balance or that that beam on the central

9:44fulcrum is level with the ground.

9:47>> Okay. When we experience pleasure, it

9:50tips one way and pain, it tips the

9:53other. Now again, this is a vast

9:55oversimplification because of course we

9:58can experience pleasure and pain

10:00simultaneously. For example, when we eat

10:02spicy food and this the brain is just

10:05much much more complex than this

10:07pleasure pain balance. Okay,

10:09>> but it's a useful framework for

10:12conceptualizing some fundamental

10:15concepts in neuroscience like the

10:18concept of homeostasis and the concept

10:20of neuro adaptation which I'm going to

10:22explain now. Okay. Okay. So, let's say

10:25um you know I do something pleasurable.

10:27We talked about potato chips. I also

10:29really like potato chips. Um you know I

10:31eat a potato chip that gives me

10:33pleasure. My pleasure pain balance tilts

10:36to the side of pleasure. But there are

10:38certain rules governing this balance.

10:40And the first and most important rule is

10:43that the balance wants to remain level

10:47with the ground. This is what

10:49neuroscientists call homeostasis.

10:52Right? It's a range of baseline

10:54conditions that the organism must

10:57maintain in order to survive.

11:00>> So as soon as I've eaten that potato

11:02chip and my pleasure pain balance has

11:04tilted to the side of pleasure. I like

11:06how you tilt your head when I when I say

11:07that.

11:08>> Like a dog. [laughter]

11:09>> Is she going to give me a treat?

11:11>> Right. Right. My brain is going to react

11:14by working very hard to bring that

11:16balance level again. And that process is

11:20called neuroaptation.

11:22And I like to imagine that as these

11:24little neuroaptation gremlins hopping on

11:26the pain side of balance because that's

11:27the level at which I understand it. But

11:30the thing about those gremlins is that

11:31they don't get off as soon as I'm level.

11:34I wish they did, but they stay on until

11:36the balance is tilted an equal and

11:38opposite amount to the side of pain.

11:40That's the come down, the craving, the

11:42hangover, or just that moment of wanting

11:45to have one more potato chip, drink one

11:48more glass of wine, you know, wa watch

11:50one more Tik Tok video. Oh, wait, hold

11:52on a second. Okay, I think I might have

11:54gotten this, but let me see. [laughter]

11:56So takeaway number one as I was

11:59listening is that you are designed with

12:02this pleasure pain balance and we're

12:04imagining a seessaw in life between the

12:07things that are easy that you love

12:09pleasurable the things that are very

12:11hard that you need to do that you avoid

12:13pain right but your brain is not only

12:18able to tilt toward pleasure or tilt

12:19toward pain so you can experience it but

12:22it's always going to want to get itself

12:24back to that seessaw being level. But

12:28you also said another word, craving.

12:31Is craving

12:33part of this pain

12:36thing which then tries to get you to get

12:38more pleasure? Is that like what where

12:40does craving come into this?

12:41>> Yeah. Yeah. You're you're definitely on

12:43the right track in the general area

12:45absorbing this.

12:46>> You are you are you are definitely

12:47absorbing this. So the first rule is any

12:51deviation from homeostasis is

12:53essentially a biological stressor and

12:55our brain will want to do the work to

12:59get us back to homeostasis. Okay. Yep.

13:02Um and and there are a couple ways we

13:04can get back there. We can just wait

13:05till the gremlins hop off and

13:07homeostasis is restored. That is not

13:09have more potato chips. Or we can have

13:12more potato chips because that will get

13:14us back there faster. And of course, you

13:17know, potato chips are yummy. So that

13:19that's what I want to do. But this this

13:22brings us to the second rule of the

13:24balance. And the second rule of the

13:25balance is with repeated exposure to the

13:29same or similar reinforcing stimulus,

13:32that initial deflection to the side of

13:35pleasure gets weaker and shorter in

13:36duration, but that after response to

13:39pain gets stronger and longer. In other

13:42words, those gremlins start to multiply.

13:45They're now lifting weights. We've got

13:47Arnold Schwarzenegger gremlins, right?

13:50So, this sense of like I'm doing

13:52something pleasurable for me right now.

13:54Yes, that's true cuz it brings us back

13:56to level position. But in the long run,

13:59what it does is it drives us down to the

14:02side of pain. And this is really key for

14:05understanding what happens in the brain

14:07as we become addicted. Because if we

14:10continue to consume our drug of choice

14:11over days to weeks to months to years,

14:14we then have enough gremlins on the pain

14:16side of the balance to fill this whole

14:18room and eventually they are camped out

14:20there tensen barbecues and tow. And then

14:24we've changed our hydonic or joy set

14:28point. Right now, we need more of our

14:31drug in more potent forms, more potato

14:34chips, not to feel good, but just to

14:38level the balance and feel normal. And

14:40when we're not using, we're walking

14:42around with a pleasure pain balance,

14:44tilted to the side of pain, experiencing

14:47the universal symptoms of withdrawal

14:49from any addictive substance or

14:51behavior, which are anxiety,

14:53irritability, insomnia, depression, and

14:56craving. And this is why it is so

14:59difficult to stop eating potato chips or

15:03whatever it is once we've changed our

15:06brain and gotten into a habitual pattern

15:09of exposure to our drug of choice or our

15:12reinforcing behavior over a long period

15:15of time.

15:16>> And you use the word addiction, but you

15:19mean that in the broadest of all

15:22possible terms. So for my benefit and

15:26for the person who's listening benefit,

15:28give me a range of things that people

15:33could [snorts]

15:34become addicted to and not realize that

15:38it's because of this pleasure pain

15:41balance getting out of whack and then

15:43getting into a pain deficit.

15:46>> Yes. where you're anxious and depressed

15:48and craving and like all of these things

15:51that you just described that a lot of

15:54people feel but may not realize. Great

15:57question. So, so first of all, let's

15:58define addiction. Okay. It it is a brain

16:01disease, but we don't have a brain scan

16:03or a blood test to diagnose it. We base

16:05it on patterns of behavior. It is the

16:07continued compulsive use of a substance

16:10or a behavior despite harm to self and

16:13or others. You could have a range of

16:15addictions to mild, moderate, and

16:16severe. And you could have pre-addicted

16:19states, right? Where you haven't quite

16:21yet crossed over into addiction, but now

16:23you've got a compulsive habitual

16:26behavior where you've lost some agency,

16:29but not all agency, and you know it's

16:32not good for you. You have regret about

16:34doing it. You have some difficulty

16:35stopping. But if you really set your

16:37mind to it, you you can. Okay, so that

16:39let's just frame that as kind of what

16:41we're talking about. It's really a

16:42spectrum or a continuum.

16:44>> What immediately came to mind for me

16:46>> is just

16:49constantly being on your phone.

16:50>> Yes.

16:50>> And this sense of I wish I weren't on my

16:52phone.

16:53>> Yes.

16:53>> Enough or as much and that feeling that

16:56every one of us has after you blow

16:58through 2 hours mindlessly scrolling.

17:01>> Yes.

17:01>> And wishing that you hadn't. So is that

17:03an example of what you're talking about

17:04in this range?

17:05>> That is a great example. and digital

17:08media, social media, short form videos

17:11activate the same reward pathway as

17:13drugs and alcohol. They're highly

17:15reinforcing. We do see in clinical care

17:19people who are getting addicted to many

17:21different forms of digital media. Um,

17:24and just looking around, you can see

17:26that people are overly engaged with

17:30their phones. Now, maybe they're not

17:32meeting threshold criteria for a

17:34clinical addiction, but it's getting in

17:37the way in many instances, um, you know,

17:40with their their goals and even their

17:42values. So, that initial exposure to

17:45whatever our drug of choice is, and

17:46we're all wired a little differently.

17:47So, for one person, it might be potato

17:49chips, for another cigarettes. for

17:51another, you know, short form video on

17:52their phone that is reinforcing,

17:55rewarding, releases dopamine in the

17:57reward pathway, at least initially. And

18:00eventually, when we become addicted or

18:02we're in this compulsive, overconumptive

18:04loop, now I'm using

18:07not to actually solve the initial

18:09problem or even to have fun, but because

18:12I'm trying to get back to homeostasis.

18:15And the reason this is important is

18:16because in the immediate aftermath of

18:20using our drug of choice, it typically

18:24feels good because it's moving our

18:28pleasure pain balance back to

18:30homeostasis.

18:31>> But the long-term effect is to actually

18:34drive our balance more to the side of

18:37pain. And that is a fundamental key

18:40concept that the more we use our drug of

18:44choice, the more we go into this

18:50pleasure pain balance that is tilted to

18:53the side of pain where whenever then

18:56we're not using, we lose our ability to

19:00take joy in other more modest rewards.

19:03We're in the vortex of compulsive

19:06overconumption and craving. We've

19:08narrowed our focus to just wanting to

19:11get to where we can use our drug of

19:12choice again to bring it balance to the

19:15you know to that homeostatic position.

19:16>> You also and also behavior of choice. So

19:19what are the wide range of things that

19:21might surprise the person who's

19:23listening or give them this wakeup call

19:26>> and epiphany

19:28>> about what they're actually dealing

19:29with. What are the types of things that

19:31people can find themselves addicted to?

19:34So in clinical care we see a very broad

19:36range. People get addicted to the

19:38traditional drugs and alcohol whether

19:41you know legal or illegal. People can

19:44get addicted to prescription drugs. Uh

19:46they can get addicted to

19:48over-the-counter drugs, right? So taking

19:50them for a medical reason but then over

19:52time finding that they've their brain

19:55has adapted to that and wants more and

19:56more. Um, people can get addicted to all

20:00kinds of behaviors, uh, gambling, uh,

20:03sex, all kinds of digital media, uh,

20:07social media, video games, online

20:08pornography, online shopping, uh, people

20:12can get addicted to other people, um,

20:14love and other forms of attachment.

20:17>> Really?

20:18>> Yes. Yes.

20:19>> You, you just said something that caught

20:21my attention. I'm sure it caught yours

20:22as you're listening, watching. What are

20:24the things that turn something or

20:28someone else into a drug for you?

20:31>> Right. So, so three general categories.

20:33Um the first is simple access.

20:38>> Simple access to our drug of choice.

20:40It's one of the the the biggest risk

20:42factors. If you live in a neighborhood

20:44where drugs are sold on the street

20:46corner, you're more likely to use them

20:48and more likely to get addicted to them.

20:50Now there is genetic variation between

20:53individuals for susceptibility to

20:55addiction and that plays a role. But

20:58whoever you are um you know if you have

21:01more access to whatever your drug of

21:03choice is you're more likely to use it,

21:04more likely to get addicted. And what we

21:06have in the world today is so many more

21:08drugs and the old drugs are so much more

21:11potent than they used to be and

21:12everybody has more access to a much

21:15larger quantity. Number two is potency.

21:18So, how much dopamine is released and

21:21how quickly it is released has a huge

21:23impact on how addictive that substance

21:26or behavior. And what we have with

21:28digital devices is technological

21:31affordances or dynamic design features

21:34that make them more potent. Things as

21:37simple as short form video. Short form

21:40video is highly reinforcing for our

21:42brains. It's just we love it. you know

21:44these moving images, the colors, the

21:47sounds often integrated with story and

21:50narrative, but what's really key here is

21:54the interactive

21:56aspect of it. So the way in which my

22:00engagement with the device and the

22:04medium actually changes the medium. And

22:08this is where the algorithmic feed is so

22:11key because the algorithms are designed

22:14to learn what we've liked before and

22:17continue to give us what we've liked

22:20with just a little bit of novelty. So

22:22the longer I spend on the platform, the

22:26more I change the platform to be

22:28tailored for me. And that tailoring

22:32really contributes to its addictive

22:35potential because again it's narrowing

22:37that drug of choice down to exactly the

22:40types of videos that you know I like to

22:42watch or or you know whatever that

22:45engagement is. Plus we have the likes

22:48and the followers and the shares and the

22:50comments. Again it's this sense what is

22:54sometimes called in neuroscience this

22:55sense of grip or more colloquial the

22:58sense of control.

23:00What is so key to addiction and what so

23:03many people don't appreciate is that

23:07addiction at heart is really not about

23:10escape. It's really about control. It's

23:14about trying to create a world within a

23:17world, especially if my world is really

23:19chaotic, in which I have this fine-tuned

23:23control of my perception and action

23:25loops

23:27such that I can manage and change my

23:30experience

23:32>> with my input. Does that make sense?

23:35>> It does. And what I what I really

23:37related to is grip.

23:38>> Yeah. Because if you've ever struggled

23:42with a type of behavior where you feel

23:47like you're in a loop, right?

23:48>> Like why do I keep obsessing obsessively

23:51checking where this person's location

23:52is?

23:53>> That has a grip on you.

23:54>> Yes. And if you have had a super chaotic

23:57day at work and you know that what you

24:01should probably do is go home and cook a

24:02nice meal and read a book and go to bed

24:04early and take a bath and all those

24:06things, but instead you flop down on the

24:09couch and you waste 4 hours on your

24:12phone while the TV is playing doing

24:14absolutely nothing. It has this grip on

24:17you, but you have this sense of being in

24:21control perhaps for the first time that

24:24moment and so it's pleasurable in that

24:26regard.

24:27>> Yes. Yes.

24:28>> But so I completely get what you're

24:32talking about.

24:33>> So you said simple access potency in

24:36terms of how much dopamine gets

24:38released. What's the third thing?

24:40>> Okay. So this this is what I find so so

24:43paradoxical in a way is that the third

24:46thing is

24:48the uncertainty

24:51or the mystery. So at the same time that

24:54we want to experience grip right or we

24:57want to experience this sense of

24:59fine-tuned control where I can do this

25:01action and change the way I feel. If

25:05that's all there was, we would get

25:08bored. But built into the algorithm is

25:12this novelty or this mystery where we

25:15are intentionally fed the occasional

25:18video that's not something that we've

25:20watched before, right? But that's

25:22something that oh who kn I never thought

25:24I would be interested in X. We are wired

25:28for uncertainty. We're wired for

25:30friction and for challenge again because

25:33that has is what has kept us alive in a

25:36world of uncertainty. We live in a world

25:38of certainty that in many ways is

25:41incredibly boring because there aren't

25:44these challenges for us to resolve

25:46beyond what we make up for our for

25:48ourselves. That's where this third piece

25:51comes in where we crave that uncertainty

25:55and you know again there's enormous

25:57uncertainty still in our lives but what

25:59we want is the controlled you know

26:02digital uncertainty where we have this

26:05um very short perception action loop of

26:09resolving it right kind of the drugified

26:11uncertainty.

26:12>> Can you talk a little bit about dopamine

26:15and ADHD? Yeah. So, um we do know that

26:19people with ADHD are at higher risk for

26:22developing addiction and the mechanism

26:26is not well understood, but there are

26:29some interesting studies suggesting that

26:32people with ADHD might have baseline

26:36lower levels of dopamine transmission in

26:38the reward pathway,

26:39>> meaning they don't make a lot of it or

26:42they don't they don't have enough firing

26:44through in the system or

26:46>> Yeah. So these are brain imaging studies

26:47where you take you measure dopamine

26:49transmission in the nucleus encumbent in

26:51healthy control subjects. You compare

26:53that to people with ADHD and you find lo

26:56and behold in that reward pathway people

26:59with ADHD appear to have lower baseline

27:02levels just at rest of dopamine

27:04transmission and even fewer postsaptic

27:07dopamine receptors which is again

27:10related to dopamine transmission. If you

27:13had that, would that mean you would be

27:14more impulsive at going after

27:17pleasurable things and quick hits of

27:19distraction and dopamine, all that

27:20stuff?

27:21>> Yeah. Because remember that's what we

27:23see in addiction. So the pathophysiology

27:26of addiction is this downregulation of

27:29dopamine transmission in the reward

27:32pathway. So folks with ADHD might at

27:35baseline have some reward insensitivity

27:40which might contribute to their

27:41impulsivity, their stimulus seeking,

27:44their vulnerability to over consume

27:48intoxicants, their vulnerability to

27:50addiction. You know, one other thing

27:52that I see a really big connection

27:54to is anxiety

27:56>> and dopamine.

27:58>> Yeah.

27:58>> And I'll share this because I think it

28:00might be helpful. One of the things that

28:02my daughter and I are working on right

28:05now, uh, because we definitely have a

28:07relationship where we're where I'm like

28:09her blankie and she has no problem with

28:11me talking about this. And it's

28:14something that I noticed that I have

28:15struggled with in relationships, too,

28:17which is whenever life gets stressful or

28:20whenever I get flooded with emotion.

28:22>> Yeah. whether I feel a little homesick

28:24or I I I nervous about what's about to

28:27happen or I just am on edge or I wake up

28:30feeling like sick that there is almost

28:34this reflexive need to quickly reach out

28:37and touch base and quickly reach out and

28:39get assurance from somebody else.

28:41>> Yes. And I have, as I've gotten older,

28:45really noticed this propensity, whether

28:47it was with my husband or with my

28:49business partner, and taught myself to

28:53just ask, wait, am I reaching out

28:56because I want to connect or am I

28:57reaching out because I myself am feeling

29:01something that's difficult and

29:02uncomfortable?

29:04And instead of just standing in this

29:07moment and holding myself here and

29:10going, "Okay, I can get through this.

29:12It's okay. This this emotion's going to

29:14pass. I'm capable of handling this

29:16difficult thing I'm about to do. I'm

29:17capable of feeling these emotions." I

29:19would reach out and borrow

29:22the the the confidence or whatever from

29:25somebody else. And it's like a simple

29:29quick hit that immediately resolves the

29:32anxiety you're feeling. And now I'm my

29:34daughter is working on this with me

29:36>> that anytime she feels this flood

29:41>> and it's painful when you feel that. And

29:43obviously every expert out there says

29:45when you're anxious the worst thing you

29:46can do is avoid the painful thing. But

29:49seeking reassurance I just realized is

29:52pleasurable.

29:53And that's why the anxiety gets worse.

29:55That's why you start to become addicted

29:57in those moments. Oh, got to reach out

29:59to mom. Got to check in with mom. You

30:01got to make sure my spot like that. That

30:03is part of this mechanism of pain,

30:06pleasure,

30:08dopamine, and not forcing yourself to do

30:13the small uncomfortable things. Is that

30:15Can you explain a little bit like what

30:16are you? Because I see you nodding.

30:18>> I I I absolutely love this and this is

30:20why I think we're sisters from another

30:22mother because that's essentially my

30:24drug of choice is attachment. Let me

30:26start by saying it is wonderful to have

30:29emotional intimacy and people in your

30:31life you can reach to and

30:33interdependency and and that we need

30:35each other and and love each other and

30:38and want to reach out to each other. So

30:40like that that's obviously the wonderful

30:42starting point, but what you're getting

30:44at is really really important and it's

30:47that moment that we cross from sort of

30:51mutual love and respect

30:56to I'm actually using you to as a drug

31:01essentially. I'm using you to kind of um

31:04help me modulate you know my emotions

31:07which again in and of itself is not

31:10necessarily bad because

31:11>> well every once of course

31:13>> but when it becomes the baseline

31:15>> yes

31:16>> and for me

31:18>> what I started asking myself is wait am

31:21I reaching out because I want to connect

31:22with this person

31:23>> right

31:23>> or am I reaching out

31:24>> as a drug

31:26>> like I'd grab a glass of wine

31:29>> yes and and here's where The technology

31:33has become so destructive and insidious.

31:39You know, even just 20 years ago, if you

31:43wanted to reach out to your daughter

31:45living across town, I mean, essentially,

31:48you had to go over there, right? And it

31:50took a little bit of time and it took

31:52some effort. Now with the devices, this

31:55reaching out really has become

31:58drugified. You know, whether it's and I

32:00do this too, you know, um we're newly

32:02empty nesters and it's been very

32:05difficult for me to be at home without

32:08any kids there now.

32:10>> And you know, I kind of got to a point

32:12where I was like literally stalking my

32:13kids on Find My iPhone. And I'd be like

32:16I'd be like my sister my my sister my my

32:19daughter was like in doing an internship

32:21in DC and I'm like are you at a Goodwill

32:23in DC? She goes mom that's weird. Like I

32:26you know I don't want you to use Find My

32:28iPhone with me if you're going to like

32:29be stalking me. And it's been this is a

32:32real area I'm working on because my kids

32:35occupy a lot of my mental real estate,

32:38right? And their well-being.

32:40I I I I do use it as a drug um to make

32:44myself feel better. And when they're

32:46doing well and I get little information

32:48from them that they're doing well, I

32:49feel good. And and when they're not

32:51doing well, I ruminate and I worry and I

32:54feel bad. But here here's how this is

32:56so, you know, counterproductive and

32:58potentially harmful for me and my kids

33:01is that my kids then get trapped in this

33:05thing where we can't actually tell mom

33:08that things are not going well. M

33:10>> because we have to be doing well for her

33:12to be okay. And it's very subtle.

33:14>> But this creeps up on you. I'm so glad

33:16you're talking about this. We're the

33:17same age.

33:18>> Yeah. Yeah, we are. Exactly.

33:19>> We've gone through the empty neester

33:21thing. But I think regardless of your

33:23age,

33:25if you're in your teens or your 20s or

33:28your 30s, you can probably think of

33:30moments where you have been going

33:32through something uncomfortable,

33:34>> right?

33:35>> And you are now trying to make yourself

33:39feel okay by using another person. Yes,

33:42>> I invite you if there's a person whose

33:44location you check all the time

33:46>> or there is a person who you notice you

33:49only reach out to them when you're

33:50feeling a little distressed or bored or

33:52whatever,

33:54>> just

33:56take everything that Dr. LMPI has shared

33:58and try to for the next couple weeks not

34:02text or reach out to that person when

34:04you're feeling a moment of distress and

34:06try to reassure yourself through it

34:08>> and just notice what starts to open up

34:10and I think it's a little dopamine.

34:13>> Yes. Yes. I think you're right.

34:14>> Homeostasis sets back in.

34:16>> That's right. That's right.

34:17>> It's so cool. One of the things I really

34:19love about your work and your research

34:21and the way you explain this stuff, Dr.

34:23at LMP is that you are very open with

34:26your own story and I love that here you

34:29are researching all this stuff you are

34:32teaching it you're simplifying it for

34:34your patients and all of a sudden you

34:36have this epiphany oh my gosh I myself

34:41have become

34:42>> addicted to something

34:43>> would you share that story

34:45>> yes absolutely so um

34:51okay uh where where go into this. So, so

34:56in in my early 40s, you know, um life

35:00was basically running along pretty well.

35:04Um and it's not like I was trying to

35:07escape into anything. I mean, I had

35:09some, you know, marital conflict around

35:12whether or not we were going to um, you

35:15know, try to have more children or stop

35:18there. Um

35:20but and and I've always been a reader.

35:23Um so I always enjoyed reading as you

35:26know a pleasure and escape as well. And

35:30I was hanging out with some moms at the

35:31elementary school and they were talking

35:33about this book that they had read and

35:36you know how great it was. So I was like

35:38oh what what are you reading? And they

35:39said oh it's the Twilight Saga. And I

35:42thought huh okay that sounds you know

35:44I've never read a book like that. I'll

35:46go check it out. So, I go to the

35:47bookstore and I'm looking for it in the

35:48adult section. They're like, "No, no,

35:50you got to go find it in the kids." I'm

35:51like, "Okay, the adolescent section, you

35:53know." So, it's for those who don't

35:54know, it's a it's a vampire romance

35:56series written for teenagers. So,

35:58anyway, I can't really explain it other

36:01than just saying I found it completely

36:03transporting and I I I read the whole

36:07series and then I I went back and read

36:08it again and again and again and I just

36:11it just put me in this place that was

36:13just I don't know. I I just didn't have

36:15to think about myself. I didn't have to

36:16think about my life. It was like a

36:19translike state, a very very

36:20pleasurable, more so than, you know,

36:23books I had been reading at the time.

36:25>> Mhm.

36:26>> So then I thought to myself, well, maybe

36:28there are other vampire romance novels.

36:31>> So I go to my local library and lo and

36:32behold, there's like a whole shelf of

36:34them. I mean, I know it's kind of weird

36:36that I didn't really like discover the

36:39romance genre until late in life, but I

36:41really hadn't. So then I'm like, "Oh,

36:43cool." And I'm reading, you know, I'm

36:45reading Anne Rice. I'm reading all the

36:46romance novels that have to do with

36:48vampires. And then I'm like, okay, what

36:50now? And then it was werewolves and, you

36:53know, necromancers and soussayers and

36:55fairies and and as time went on, you

36:59know, I I I just was spending more and

37:01more time reading romance novels,

37:02especially romantic, combining fantasy

37:05and romance. Um, then my friend Susan,

37:08you know, love her, but she's like,

37:10"Anna, you should get a Kindle." And I'm

37:12like, "Oh, you know," and this was sort

37:13of, like the e-readers were early. So,

37:15I'm like, "Okay." And I get a Kindle and

37:17then all of a sudden I can be reading

37:19like Bodis Rippers with these really

37:21embarrassing covers, but nobody knows.

37:23I'm like, "Oh, yeah. I'm reading War in

37:24Peace. Isn't that amazing?" You know,

37:26[laughter]

37:28and you know, it's the crazy part is

37:30even as an addiction psychiatrist, I did

37:33not see the progression as it was

37:35happening. And there there were a couple

37:36things with the progression. Number one,

37:38I started developing developing

37:40tolerance where I I noticed I I didn't

37:42notice it only in retrospect, but I

37:44needed more and more graphic forms to

37:47get the same effect.

37:49>> So, more sexualized, more eroticized.

37:52>> Um, I was spending more and more time

37:55reading, so staying up later and later

37:57at night, uh, being tired the next day.

38:01I was becoming mentally preoccupied

38:03where that's all I wanted to do. I just

38:05wanted to get through my day, deal with

38:07the kids, deal with my husband, and then

38:09get to my place where I could read my

38:11romance novels, right? So, this kind of

38:12narrowing of focus, which we see with

38:14addiction.

38:16Um, and then then there were also real

38:18consequences and the main consequences

38:20were I was less present for my children

38:24and my family and my patients. I started

38:26bringing romance novels to work and

38:28actually reading them in the 10 minutes

38:30between patients instead of reflecting

38:32on patients or documenting my patients.

38:34Um, we we went on a family vacation at

38:37the beach. I didn't go to the beach. I

38:38spent the whole time in the room reading

38:40romance novels. We even went to like a

38:42neighborhood party. And this is so

38:45bizarre. I actually found a room in

38:47their house while other people were in

38:49the backyard and I read romance novels

38:51during the party. So it was again this

38:52kind of narrowing of focus, the

38:54inability to take joy and other modest

38:56rewards, this resetting of my joy set

38:59point. The only thing that gave me

39:01pleasure was the romance novels. Um, and

39:04eventually I got to a point where like I

39:06didn't care about the writing or the

39:09plot structure or the characters. I was

39:12on Amazon trying to get like free cuz

39:15you know free drugs like that that

39:17sounds good to me. I didn't want to pay

39:19more money, so I got like free romance

39:21novels. I I didn't even finish them

39:23after a while. I just got to like

39:24threequarters of the way through, which

39:26any romance novel is designed if you

39:28open it to 3/4 of the way through,

39:30you'll get right to the climax. Yeah.

39:32>> You know, and I mean that in multiple

39:34ways. Y

39:35>> um and I didn't even finish it. Then I

39:37then was and it was really only in

39:38retrospect that I I could see in myself

39:41what my patients had been describing

39:43where, you know, it was like, "Oh, I

39:45I'll never use heroin." And then all of

39:47a sudden, you know, they're in the

39:48tenderloin, you know, selling their

39:50jacket and their laptop for a tiny

39:53amount of blacktar heroin. You know,

39:55this kind of like sort of this kind of

39:57lowest common denominator, anything to

39:59get my fix. Um, now I don't want to

40:02trivialize

40:02>> a moment where you were like,

40:04>> "Holy cow."

40:05>> Yeah.

40:06>> I I the the pleasure pain

40:10>> like it's it's

40:11>> I am Was there a moment where you're

40:14like,

40:14>> "Holy cow." Because what you're

40:16describing honestly sounds like

40:18everybody's basic use of their phone.

40:21>> Yeah.

40:21>> The conflict, the grip, the this, the

40:24not as satisfying. Why am I doing it?

40:25I'm searching for more. Maybe follow

40:27different things. Like,

40:28>> and so I love this story. I also love

40:30the story. I'm going to tell you a

40:31reason. Because I found

40:34>> the whole genre of adult fairy fantasy.

40:39>> Yeah.

40:39>> Court of Thorn and Rosins graphic audio.

40:42I would I would be in my kitchen

40:45>> listening to this. Chris would be

40:47standing there. The volume would be

40:48down. I'm in

40:50>> the night court listening to my

40:53characters in a completely different

40:55world. I can hear him talking and I'm

40:57kind of nodding as if I'm there and I'm

40:59like you have to and the other thing

41:02that happened is after I finished the

41:04entire series which I got my whole

41:06family and half this company to listen

41:07to

41:08>> I have been looking for something

41:10>> like

41:11>> that holds my attention and haven't

41:12found it.

41:13>> Yeah.

41:13>> And so when you have can you use that to

41:18explain

41:19just the cycle of pleasure pain and how

41:23dopamine is involved? Yeah. just like in

41:26the be. So the first one you read like

41:28oh my god

41:29>> right

41:29>> so it's novel dopamine gets released

41:33because of why

41:36>> again dopamine is our reward

41:39neurotransmitter. Okay it it it it is

41:42what signals to us that something in the

41:44environment is important for our

41:46survival. We should approach it, explore

41:49it and potentially exploit it. it.

41:52Dopamine evolved to bring us to the

41:55natural rewards that we need to live.

41:57Food, clothing, shelter, finding a mate.

42:01What happens in addiction is that that

42:03dopamine signal and the reward pathway

42:06gets hijacked by this drug that

42:10resembles a natural reward and works

42:12through that similar mechanism but is

42:14not in fact uh a natural reward and is

42:18not and is actually adverse or contrary

42:22to our well-being. But we no longer

42:25recognize it as such in part because

42:28over time our brain adapts to that

42:30increased dopamine firing. Eventually we

42:32end up in this chronic dopamine deficit

42:35state and now we're needing to use not

42:38to get pleasure but actually just to

42:40bring ourselves back up to baseline and

42:42stop feeling pain. But we don't see

42:44that, right?

42:44>> We don't see that.

42:45>> Okay. So let me see if I can give this

42:47back to you. So, the fact that you keep

42:50looking for another novel, the fact that

42:52you keep going back to the novel, that's

42:54a sign that you're in a dopamine deficit

42:58state because you're chasing something

43:00like that.

43:01>> Even more importantly,

43:03>> yeah,

43:03>> when you you that you lose some agency

43:08around your use

43:10>> and that even when you or others

43:12recognize it's problematic, you have

43:15trouble stopping. Okay.

43:17>> And when you're not using, you

43:20experience a lot of craving to use and a

43:23compulsion driven by that craving to

43:26want to do it again, even when you

43:29committed to not doing it.

43:30>> Got it. Okay. You've said that in

43:32today's world, every single one of us is

43:35vulnerable to addiction, even if we

43:39don't realize it. Can you explain what

43:41you mean by that?

43:42>> Yeah. So, we talked about these

43:44technological affordances that make

43:46digital media more addictive. And you

43:48know, kind of the big idea in Dopamine

43:50Nation is that we've essentially

43:52drugified everything,

43:54>> whether it's substances or behaviors or

43:57work or relationships. We've made it

44:01more accessible, more potent, um, you

44:04know, more novel, such that now we're

44:08vulnerable to get addicted to just about

44:11anything, including

44:14things that we typically think of as

44:16healthy,

44:16>> like what?

44:17>> Like reading, right? No, now we're like,

44:19"Oh, great. My kid's reading a book.

44:20That's awesome." But I can tell you, I

44:22and many of my patients have gotten

44:24addicted to various forms of reading,

44:26>> but also things like human connection,

44:28as we talked about, right? like that's

44:30super healthy. We need each other. We we

44:31need human connection. But now we have

44:33these devices that are so reinforcing

44:38because of their dynamic design features

44:40that they create the illusion of

44:43connection even when there's no real

44:45connection happening and more

44:46importantly they hijack our reward

44:48system so that we don't want to

44:50disengage even when we've exhausted

44:53their utility. Right? So these these

44:55digital media are great when we use them

44:58as a tool, not great when we use them as

45:02a drug to change the way we feel. Why is

45:05it so damn hard to do the simplest

45:07things like going to the gym, eating

45:10healthy, or just getting started on that

45:13project or on studying. You know you

45:16need to do it, but you can't seem to get

45:19the get up and go to do it. We evolved

45:22to reflexively approach pleasure and

45:24avoid pain.

45:25>> Gotcha.

45:26>> In a world of scarcity,

45:27>> okay,

45:28>> where we would have to do a lot of

45:30upfront work for a tiny little bit of

45:32reward.

45:33>> Got it. So, we are designed to move

45:35toward what's easy now, towards what's

45:37pleasurable now, and we are designed to

45:39move away from the gym or away from the

45:42project that we don't want to do.

45:44>> Yes. And again, that is a great built-in

45:49mechanism to keep us alive in a world of

45:51scarcity. But in this world of

45:53overwhelming overabundance,

45:55it it's a very bad mechanism because now

45:58we're exposing our brains to this fire

46:00hose of dopamine, we're getting into

46:01this dopamine deficit state. Now we've

46:03narrowed our focus. All we want to do is

46:06keep pursuing pleasure to bring

46:08ourselves back up to baseline. And the

46:11prospect of getting up off the couch and

46:14actually going out the door, much less

46:17going to the gym, has become a kind of a

46:19Mount Everest for us, right? Because

46:21we've reset our hydonic or joy set

46:24point. Plus, we are embedded in a

46:28culture that tells us that pain is

46:30dangerous. That if we're uncomfortable,

46:34then we're potentially creating a

46:36psychic scar that's going to set us set

46:38us up for future pain in the form of

46:41post-traumatic stress disorder. That

46:43what we need is to pursue comfort, to be

46:46happy, to be relaxed, that any kind of

46:50distress is actually going to harm our

46:53brains. And in fact, the opposite is

46:55true. That when an organism is exposed

46:59to right-sized pain, that actually

47:02triggers our body's own reeregulating

47:06healing mechanisms, and we start to

47:09upregulate our feel-good

47:10neurotransmitters like dopamine, like

47:13serotonin, like our indogenous opioids,

47:15like our indogenous canabonoids. So we

47:18get our dopamine indirectly by paying

47:21for it upfront which is the way that we

47:23evolved to get it. Again we evolved to

47:27have to do work to get a little bit of

47:29reward. So the message here is to be

47:33happier, to experience more joy, we need

47:37to do the counterintuitive thing of

47:41moderating and greatly reducing our use

47:44of instantaneous

47:46easy pleasures and intentionally leaning

47:49into right-sized pain in order to reset

47:54our pleasure pain balance.

47:56>> That makes so much sense. The way that a

47:57human being is designed is we need

48:00moments of pain all day long. And what

48:03you're talking about is shoving yourself

48:05out of bed. You're talking about getting

48:07out the door for a walk. You're talking

48:09about how painful it can be to just get

48:13yourself out of that lull, turn off the

48:14TV, stand up, and go fold the laundry.

48:17You're talking about picking up the

48:19phone and having the hard conversation.

48:21talking about working on your resume or

48:24taking that AI skills class instead of

48:27scrolling on your phone and the problem

48:29and and that we need that we need to be

48:33able to push ourselves

48:36>> through moments of pain all day long

48:38because that's how we were designed to

48:40work and modern life and the way it is

48:45so easy and so convenient and we've

48:48optimized for you can order your food.

48:51You don't even have to cook anything or

48:53think about it. Oh, you can sit on the

48:55couch and somebody will bring it. You

48:56don't even have to. You can listen you

48:58you can listen to 15 different radio

49:00stations on the way to work if you get

49:02bored. So, you don't even tolerate

49:03boredom, which was I would imagine would

49:05be just one of these small moments of

49:07pain. It's not any fun to be bored,

49:10>> but we reach for our phone. And so we've

49:13so

49:14completely whacked ourselves from the

49:16inside out because we're constantly now

49:19reaching for pleasure. We are so used

49:23now to constantly being stimulated,

49:26right? That simply

49:29sitting in the quiet is terrifying for

49:32us. It's absolutely terrifying because

49:35we're always reacting to external

49:37stimuli. We we're not comfortable with

49:40our own thoughts. Um you know when we

49:44disconnect for a period of time we have

49:46this flooding of these you know thoughts

49:48and emotions that we've been putting at

49:51bay you know by distracting ourselves

49:54with all these you know pleasurable

49:55stimuli and and it can be really scary

49:57like that is painful but the longer we

50:00can sit and just kind of like okay be

50:03curious about what comes up for us and

50:04this is where mindfulness practices are

50:06so important and even welcome that

50:08discomfort but also name it and

50:10recognize it. So, you know, not even

50:12just so much pu pushing through

50:14discomfort, but just going, okay, I'm

50:16uncomfortable now and [clears throat]

50:17that's okay, you know, and and I can sit

50:20with this and just be curious about it

50:22and it it it too will pass and I will

50:25get to a place where I have actually

50:27then built up mental calluses to

50:30tolerate more discomfort. And this is of

50:33course, you know, the the sort of

50:34underpinning of exposure therapy that I

50:36think so many people are finding

50:38helpful. One thing I want to ask before

50:39we talk about what the hell do we do Dr.

50:41lumpy is [laughter]

50:43how does overwarding yourself

50:46with these small little cheap dopamine

50:49pleasure easy easy do the easy thing how

50:53does that mess up our motivation in the

50:56long term

50:59>> it messes up our motivation because we

51:02become narrowly focused on short-term

51:06rewards

51:07>> and we lose the ability to see the

51:09longerterm rewards that require the

51:12upfront work that are actually better

51:14for our well-being, you know, over

51:17months to years.

51:18>> So, does the pain also feel bigger? So,

51:21if you have constant pleasure, easy

51:23distraction around you, I'll just do the

51:25easy thing. I'll just order the Uber

51:26Eats. I'll just do this. I'll just do

51:28that.

51:28>> Does it feel harder over the long run to

51:31get off the couch or to go for that

51:33walk?

51:33>> Absolutely. And again by changing our

51:36hydonic or joy set point,

51:39>> what it means is that we need bigger

51:41pleasures to feel any pleasure at all.

51:43And even the merest pain is incredibly

51:46painful. And we see this now in clinical

51:48care where, you know, people talk about

51:52really quite ordinary things that they

51:55struggle to do. you know, simply paying

51:58a bill or getting off the couch and

52:01going and meeting with people or doing

52:03the dishes. Now, these are, you know,

52:05kind of everyday things that, you know,

52:08nobody really likes or generally we

52:10don't like, but they're even more

52:13painful than in prior generations.

52:15>> Well, you know, one example that I can

52:17point to to kind of broaden this out to

52:19a normal person who's just really

52:22struggling with motivation. Yeah.

52:24>> You know, doesn't like, well, I'm not

52:25really addicted to anything, but

52:26>> [clears throat]

52:27>> has really leaned in to say but I have

52:29really screwed up the pain pleasure

52:31>> yes

52:32>> uh balance in my body I am finding it

52:35harder and harder to concentrate or to

52:36do the little hard things or to be

52:38motivated to do the things that I needed

52:40to do. If you've ever had an experience

52:43or you have an experience as a parent

52:46where your kids go to like a school

52:50sleepa away camp or they go on a field

52:53trip and they take their phones away and

52:56they are forced to tolerate that.

52:58>> Yeah.

52:59>> They are so much happier. Yes.

53:01>> And so it's an example of how your body

53:06naturally resets

53:08>> Yes.

53:09to a homeostasis

53:12once the cheap dopamine thing is removed

53:17from your environment and from you. And

53:20that's why I think we all need a

53:23dopamine detox.

53:24>> Yeah.

53:25>> And to really understand that if you're

53:28struggling with motivation in any area

53:29of your life, if you're struggling with

53:31doing anything difficult,

53:33>> Yes. if you're struggling with enjoying

53:35aspects of your life that this is a

53:38really serious place to take a look

53:41because this makes a lot of sense. You

53:43just add something in there.

53:45>> Um, so and key to this this absence

53:48trial or this dopamine detox and we're

53:50not actually abstaining from dopamine

53:51because we're not ingesting dopamine.

53:53It's it's something that gets triggered

53:54in our brains, but it's kind of a

53:56metaphor or a meme at this point. The

53:58key to it though is to abstain for long

54:01enough to allow those gremlins to hop

54:04off the pain side of the balance and for

54:06homeostasis to be restored. Because if

54:08we don't abstain from for long enough,

54:10what happens is we take our pleasure,

54:12our reward off of the pleasure side, the

54:14gremlins accumulating on the pain side

54:16crash us down and we are in withdrawal,

54:19right? And in that state of withdrawal,

54:20we experience anxiety, irritability,

54:22insomnia, dysphoria, and also intense

54:25craving that feels like it will never

54:27get better. But what is so amazing is

54:30that once we get over the hump of sort

54:32of that acute withdrawal for most

54:34people, which is about 14 days, we come

54:37out the other.

54:37>> So that's for a hard drug or is that for

54:39everything? Could that be for like not

54:40checking person's location? It could be.

54:43>> Oh, yes. In fact, you know, studies

54:45looking at teenagers who get off of

54:48social media find that they feel less

54:51depressed, less anxious, and less

54:54lonely, but only if they go for long

54:57enough, which is on average about 3 to

54:59four weeks of abstaining from social

55:01media. So it it's it it in my clinical

55:04experience kind of no matter the drug

55:07and no matter the the sort of severity

55:09of the attachment if people can go for

55:12about 3 to 4 weeks they generally not

55:16always but about 80% of folks feel

55:19better and experience less craving. But

55:21if they only go for 2 weeks or less,

55:24they do not typically get out of that

55:26vortex of craving and then they don't

55:29also kind of um you know believe in the

55:32experiment, right? Because they feel

55:35like oh it didn't work for me. It's

55:37like, well, well, how long did you

55:38abstain? Cuz you, it really needs to be

55:41long enough, you know, again, for those

55:43metaphorical gremlins to hop off and for

55:45sort of baseline reward to be.

55:47>> It's also helpful to say to know that

55:50the craving

55:52>> is simply your body working through this

55:57pain, pleasure, seessaw being out of

56:01whack.

56:01>> And it's time limited. and it's time

56:04limited that it will pass. But it is a

56:07sign

56:08>> that everything's functioning as it

56:10should be because you're trying to get

56:11back to homeostasis.

56:13>> And if you're feeling the craving,

56:15you're actually doing it correctly.

56:16>> That's right. Exactly. And you're you're

56:18moving toward a good place. So, it's

56:19reframing the dopamine fast or the

56:22abstinence trial as not denying

56:24ourselves a reward, but actually doing

56:27something healthy, moving toward a

56:29better life. So you could create a

56:32dopamine detox over a 3 to four week

56:36period over anything.

56:38>> Yeah.

56:39>> Whether it's I'm not going to sleep next

56:42to my phone for 4 weeks and I'm going to

56:44wake up in the morning and I'm going to

56:45feel the craving to reach for it and I'm

56:46not going to do it. You could take on

56:48the standing in line challenge.

56:50>> Every time I'm standing in line for the

56:52next four weeks, I am not going to reach

56:54for my phone. I'm going to practice all

56:56the tolerance and the painful experience

56:59of feeling anxious, depressed, agitated,

57:02pissed off in that line. And if I feel

57:06those things, I'm doing this correctly.

57:09>> Yeah.

57:09>> Because I'm getting myself back into

57:11homeostasis. Oh, I love this. [laughter]

57:14>> This makes a lot of sense to me.

57:16>> Yeah. Good. Good.

57:16>> And let's talk about discomfort.

57:19How can intentional discomfort

57:23help us become happier and more

57:25motivated? And could you explain to the

57:28person listening what does that look

57:30like? Great. So, getting back to

57:34dopamine fasting and the pleasure pain

57:36balance. We're encouraging people to

57:38abstain for a period of time, minimum

57:41four weeks from their drug of choice to

57:44allow those gremlins to slowly hop off.

57:46It takes time. so that homeostasis can

57:49be restored. But hypothetically, we can

57:52speed up that process by intentionally

57:56pressing on the pain side of the

57:58balance. So, for example, there are

58:00studies showing that people in

58:02withdrawal from, you know, alcohol and

58:04drug addiction, if they engage in

58:06vigorous exercise, they can decrease the

58:09symptoms of withdrawal. they can get to

58:11a place where they're feeling more of a

58:15strong recovery and they can actually

58:17prevent or decrease their risk of

58:20relapse just by engaging in exercise.

58:22And why? Well, again using this metaphor

58:25to sort of visualize what might be

58:26happening in the brain is that if we

58:29intentionally now press on the pain side

58:31of the balance, those gremlins, those

58:34metaphorical gremlins will go to the

58:36pleasure side and we can get our

58:37dopamine indirectly by paying for it up

58:40front. And the classic example of this

58:42is the runner's high, right? So we know

58:44that

58:46that exercise is actually injurious to

58:50cells. So at the cellular level,

58:52exercise is toxic. But we also know

58:54exercise is really good for us. So how

58:56does it work? What's probably happening

58:58is that the body senses minor injury in

59:02response to to exercise and then starts

59:04to upregulate again our own feel-good

59:06neurotransmitters, including dopamine.

59:09Since we now understand that intentional

59:13pain throughout your day, doing hard

59:16things, pushing that lever inside

59:19yourself, forcing yourself to do these

59:21things, that it is so important for your

59:24happiness, it's so important for your

59:25body to function correctly and your

59:27brain to function correctly. And so, I

59:29want you to take this on as Dr. Lumpky

59:32describes this. What would it look like

59:34from the moment you wake up to the

59:37moment you go to bed to start to insert

59:41intentional discomfort for your own

59:43happiness and wellbeing? Let's just take

59:45somebody who is really concerned about

59:48their overuse of the phone and

59:50technology, but they still have to go to

59:52work. And let's just walk through the

59:54moment you wake up.

59:55>> Yeah.

59:56and what you could do with intentional

1:00:01discomfort to start to help yourself

1:00:04reset this.

1:00:05>> Okay.

1:00:07>> The moment that you wake up

1:00:09>> actually begins with the night before.

1:00:12>> Oh, okay. where you make a plan. Because

1:00:16if we find ourselves choosing between

1:00:20pleasure and pain, we will always choose

1:00:23pleasure unless we have anticipated that

1:00:26moment and put in self-binding

1:00:29strategies that put a barrier between

1:00:31ourselves and our drug of choice so that

1:00:33we can press the pause button between

1:00:36desire and consumption.

1:00:37>> Got it. So you're basically saying do

1:00:39not rely on willpower.

1:00:42our willpower alone

1:00:43>> because you are wired to move toward the

1:00:44cheap dopamine.

1:00:46>> And so if you truly want to do this,

1:00:47you're going to make a plan the night

1:00:48before.

1:00:49>> Yes. And that plan will include having

1:00:51no digital devices in the bedroom or

1:00:53within easy reach.

1:00:55>> It will include making a plan for

1:00:59starting your day with pain.

1:01:01>> Now that that I know sounds really

1:01:04>> first of all just getting out of bed.

1:01:06>> Okay. When you wake up, get I mean it

1:01:08can be hard to just get out of bed,

1:01:10right? And then you know if your

1:01:12schedule and your lifestyle allows doing

1:01:14some exercise or some mind body work

1:01:18some meditation

1:01:20something that maybe you know you don't

1:01:22necessarily look forward to before you

1:01:24do it but you know that after you do it

1:01:26you feel better.

1:01:27>> Okay.

1:01:27>> So you and you plan all that out. You

1:01:29put your your exercise bag there or you

1:01:32arrange to meet with a friend to

1:01:34exercise or you put your you know

1:01:36whatever your meditation practice is.

1:01:38you get it all ready and you plan it out

1:01:40and then when you wake up, you don't

1:01:43linger um you know in the bed when you

1:01:45know especially you're not going to be

1:01:46able to go back to sleep. Don't grab for

1:01:48any digital devices. Don't look at any

1:01:50screen. Your brain is going to tell you,

1:01:52oh, I need to check this or or I'm just

1:01:54going to look at that or or this is

1:01:56really important. Really try to plan it

1:01:58out so you don't need need to look at at

1:02:00your device for any reason. Not for not

1:02:02for a text, not for mapping. Like know

1:02:05where you're going to go. Plan it out in

1:02:07advance. Get up. Leave the device

1:02:09behind. Go outside if you can. Move your

1:02:13body. You know, be in in nature if you

1:02:16can.

1:02:18Be in a space where you you are not

1:02:21counting yourself or digitally

1:02:23monitoring yourself. You're just with

1:02:26yourself or other people, but you're not

1:02:29it's not through this digital medium.

1:02:31>> When you've done that, that alone is

1:02:34awesome. If you do that, that that right

1:02:36there and doing it with consistency, but

1:02:38also coming back and then delaying the

1:02:41point at which you get on your device.

1:02:43So, whatever your you know, one patient

1:02:45I had called it his more his morning

1:02:47jamboree, you know, whatever it is like

1:02:48making your bed, eating a good

1:02:50breakfast, brushing teeth, cleaning up,

1:02:52all of the things right before you

1:02:55actually get on the device. And then

1:02:57before you get on the device, make a

1:02:59list of what you're going to do on the

1:03:01device. Why? Because the instant our

1:03:04brains are exposed to those screens, all

1:03:06of a sudden we forget what what we were

1:03:09going to do. We we forget how we were

1:03:11going to use it as a tool and instead we

1:03:14use it as a drug. So make a list, get on

1:03:17there. Um hopefully the night before

1:03:19you've also deleted the apps that you

1:03:22want to abstain from for that period of

1:03:24time. You know, whether it's a social

1:03:26media app or a game playing app or an

1:03:29online shopping, you know, app. get get

1:03:33them all unsubscribe, you know, get get

1:03:35rid of them because you're really

1:03:36committing to, you know, not using your

1:03:41drug of choice, behavior or drug,

1:03:43whatever it is. Um, and then also just

1:03:46really be aware that you're going to

1:03:48feel uncomfortable and you're going to

1:03:50experience craving. And part of craving

1:03:53will manifest as an elaborate narrative

1:03:55for why it's a stupid experiment. I

1:03:58don't need to do that. That's dumb. or

1:04:00yesterday that seemed like a good idea

1:04:01but today that's just stupid and I need

1:04:03for this and this and this reason you

1:04:05know for for other people's safety um

1:04:08you know or for work. Now I want to

1:04:10emphasize that it really is true that a

1:04:12lot of us need to be digitally connected

1:04:14for our work but we also use that as an

1:04:16excuse to be overconnected. So this is

1:04:18all the part of the planning in advance.

1:04:20How are people going to reach me when

1:04:23I'm on my dopamine you know digital

1:04:25dopamine fast? um how am I going to

1:04:27negotiate work even though I'm not going

1:04:29to be using that app or even though I've

1:04:31turned off notifications so I'm not

1:04:33constantly triggering you know my reward

1:04:35pathway with the little alerts that pull

1:04:37me back in. So, it's really anticipating

1:04:40it, knowing you're going to feel

1:04:41uncomfortable, but trusting that with

1:04:45the passage of time, your brain will

1:04:47readapt and you will find yourself in a

1:04:50place which is so much better, right?

1:04:52Where you're not in that con constant

1:04:54state of craving, where you have more

1:04:57presence. Cuz really what we're losing

1:04:59so much of is our presence, right? When

1:05:01we're in the line checking, we're not

1:05:03really looking around at where we are or

1:05:06what other people are doing or what's

1:05:09happening on the road or in the sky or

1:05:11in our own mind. So, we really recapture

1:05:14that presence and that's that is our

1:05:16life, right? We're getting back our

1:05:18life.

1:05:20>> I think this is so important because um

1:05:23I did this a couple years ago. Got very

1:05:25serious about this and it all started

1:05:27with not looking at the phone in a line.

1:05:29>> Yeah. And I don't have the phone within

1:05:33reach,

1:05:33>> right?

1:05:34>> And I don't look at it first thing in

1:05:37the morning,

1:05:38>> right?

1:05:38>> I have a ritual, even a hotel room that

1:05:40I do before I even check. And I am

1:05:45probably 85%

1:05:49>> compliant with it.

1:05:50>> Great.

1:05:51>> I have a place in the kitchen where I

1:05:52plug in the phone. It's almost never on

1:05:54my person. In fact, pe people that work

1:05:56with me will be like, I always walk

1:05:57around like, "Does anyone see my phone?"

1:05:59>> Right. Right. Right.

1:06:02>> I cannot even tell you the level of

1:06:05peace that you have

1:06:06>> if you take this on. And what I

1:06:08appreciate that you said, Dr. Lumpkkey,

1:06:10is that when your brain goes nutso

1:06:13and starts negotiating with you, that

1:06:15sounds like an addict.

1:06:17>> Yes.

1:06:17>> Telling you why they need a drink today.

1:06:19>> Right. Right.

1:06:20>> And you should expect it. Mhm.

1:06:22>> And it's a sign of the pain pleasure

1:06:26>> mechanism in your brain being out of

1:06:29whack.

1:06:30>> Yes.

1:06:31>> And that's why you need to do this type

1:06:35of dopamine detox for yourself cuz it

1:06:38will get better with time. Yes. The

1:06:40longer you can go, the less you'll miss

1:06:42it and then you'll even get to a place

1:06:44where you don't want to have anything to

1:06:46do with that.

1:06:46>> Absolutely not. How how will doing this

1:06:48help motivate you to achieve your goals?

1:06:52>> Great question. Part of recapturing our

1:06:56motivation is not having these

1:06:59frictionless cheap pleasures that we can

1:07:02distract ourselves with. So, for

1:07:04example, uh a young patient of mine who

1:07:08got very addicted to video games,

1:07:10>> went off to college, continued to play

1:07:12video games constantly, and also found

1:07:14that other things lost their salience or

1:07:17their their appeal for him, including

1:07:20his computer science classes, and he

1:07:22continually procrastinated with video

1:07:24games. When he gave up video games and

1:07:27really committed to that and then went

1:07:29back to school, he said, "It's amazing.

1:07:31my classes are interesting again. So

1:07:34when we remove all of these ways of

1:07:37distracting ourselves and

1:07:39procrastinating,

1:07:41we're suddenly left with this big empty

1:07:44space which feels very terrifying. And

1:07:48yet it is in that empty space where we

1:07:50go, "Oh, okay. I can't do this thing

1:07:54that I usually do, so I guess I'll just

1:07:57do my work." Right? I mean, it is really

1:08:00like that. It's like you kind of sit

1:08:02there and you go, I'd really like to do

1:08:03that over there, but I committed to not

1:08:05doing it. So, geez, I guess I'll get

1:08:07started filling out this form or, you

1:08:10know, writing this paragraph or, you

1:08:13know, dealing with paying this bill or

1:08:15cleaning out my closet or whatever it

1:08:17is. It is amazing how just creating that

1:08:22kind of empty space and tolerating that

1:08:25discomfort and not giving ourselves

1:08:27other options just like well okay I'll

1:08:29do this. Well one of the things that I

1:08:32love about this conversation is the

1:08:34connection between

1:08:37making yourself intentionally do things

1:08:39that are hard and painful

1:08:42knowing that it has a huge impact on how

1:08:46happy you are. Yeah.

1:08:48>> And um in the long run in the long run

1:08:50and how much more motivated you are.

1:08:53>> Can you share more examples of simple

1:08:57things that I can do that the person

1:09:01listening can do in their daily lives to

1:09:04help get this dopamine detox and the

1:09:09pain pleasure center back into

1:09:11homeostasis? Like what what are some

1:09:13other things we can be taking on every

1:09:14day? I mean, ju again with digital

1:09:17media, you said a lot of them, but

1:09:18deleting apps, turning off notifications

1:09:21is really key. Every time we get that

1:09:23kind of buzz or ping, that pulls us back

1:09:25in. Um, going grayscale is can be really

1:09:28important. If there's a digital medium

1:09:30we need to be on, putting it on our

1:09:32laptop and not on our phone, so it's

1:09:34kind of less portable, we have less

1:09:36access. Those are all really important

1:09:38self-binding strategies. um when it

1:09:41comes to food, so our our food supply

1:09:44has become drugified, right? And you've

1:09:45you've done a lot of podcasts on this

1:09:47with the addition of fat, salt, sugar,

1:09:49and flavorants. So having non-drugified

1:09:52foods in our home, right? wholesome

1:09:54foods the way that mother nature made

1:09:56them. So that when we eat them, we are

1:09:59getting the calories we need and we're

1:10:00not getting this incredible spike of

1:10:02dopamine that we get from ultrarocessed

1:10:04food which is what has us continuing to

1:10:07consume it even after you know we should

1:10:10be satiated or or should feel full from

1:10:13it. Um so that's a big one. I really

1:10:16think also, you know, when we think

1:10:18about work, um, and you know, work we

1:10:22typically think of as effortful and

1:10:24hard, but not all work gives us that

1:10:27sense of natural reward or satisfaction

1:10:30at the end of the day. Either because

1:10:32there's too much of it. We pressed too

1:10:34hard on the pain side of the balance or

1:10:36it's the kind of work that's really been

1:10:39divorced from the meaning of work. And

1:10:41so, we don't really feel the

1:10:43satisfaction of having an impact. And a

1:10:44lot of people have jobs like that. So

1:10:47there's a real risk of getting into this

1:10:49work hard, play hard, which remember any

1:10:52deviation from homeostasis is biological

1:10:54stress. We're releasing our adrenaline

1:10:56every time we have to do the work to get

1:10:58back to a level balance. So when we're

1:11:00pressing hard on the pain side by doing

1:11:03too much work, it is a natural in

1:11:06inclination at the end of the day to

1:11:08want to then, you know, use our

1:11:11intoxicants to bring it back to the

1:11:13level position. So, I think being really

1:11:15thoughtful about um limiting the amount

1:11:18of work that we're doing if if we're

1:11:20able to um you know, trying to limit the

1:11:23stress related to work and then being

1:11:25really mindful that at the end of a

1:11:27really hard day is probably not the time

1:11:30to indulge in intoxicants because of

1:11:33course, you know, people are going to

1:11:34indulge. You know, moderation is okay.

1:11:38You know, it's the spice of life in many

1:11:40instances. I'm not here saying, you

1:11:41know, never take a drink or never eat a

1:11:43cupcake or, you know, that that's not

1:11:45the message at all. But

1:11:47>> if we've had a really rough day where

1:11:49we've overextended ourselves at work,

1:11:51that would be the day in to

1:11:53intentionally avoid these kind of cheap

1:11:56intoxicants because we will not have the

1:11:59ability in that context to moderate our

1:12:02consumption. And I'll just use myself as

1:12:04an example. You know, I love my work,

1:12:06but on the end of my busy clinical days,

1:12:10I cannot watch videos. Um, and I say

1:12:14cannot, of course, I can, and I do

1:12:15often, but when I do,

1:12:17>> I love how normal you are.

1:12:18>> Totally.

1:12:19>> My god.

1:12:20>> But, but when I do, it's like I I plan

1:12:23to just watch for 15 minutes or I was

1:12:25just going to watch this one video, you

1:12:26know, and there I am 2 3 hours later.

1:12:29>> Yeah. and and we use it to kind of relax

1:12:31and self soo, but I don't think it's

1:12:33actually relaxing for our brains. So

1:12:36again, intentionally planning getting

1:12:37together with friends or meditating or

1:12:40going on a walk, something where we're

1:12:43finding a way to calm our brains down

1:12:46without using our drug of choice.

1:12:49>> What is so powerful, Dr. Lumpky, about

1:12:51boring movements, taking a walk,

1:12:55stretching?

1:12:56>> Yes.

1:12:56>> Rolling.

1:12:57>> Yeah.

1:12:58>> What? What why is that a powerful thing

1:13:01to do?

1:13:02>> Well, essentially, you know, boredom is

1:13:05a really fascinating emotion because um

1:13:09number one, it's painful because it's

1:13:11boring, right? And we're really used to

1:13:13being overstimulated, but also boredom

1:13:15is kind of terrifying

1:13:17because when we are bored, we are then

1:13:20confronted with kind of fundamental

1:13:23questions about life like why am I doing

1:13:26this or what is my purpose anyway? And

1:13:28when we wade into those existential

1:13:30areas, it can really, you know, cause us

1:13:33to feel some degree of terror,

1:13:35especially since we don't tend to think

1:13:37about those things because we're always

1:13:38distracting us ourselves with with our

1:13:40drugs. But but boredom is really really

1:13:43necessary because it's only when we

1:13:45allow ourselves to be bored and to sort

1:13:47of quiet our minds that number one we

1:13:50become acquainted with our own thoughts

1:13:52and feelings you know and and and and

1:13:55sort of acquire the mindfulness that we

1:13:57need in order to move at the pace of

1:14:00mindfulness which is this peaceful and

1:14:02grounding place. But also, boredom

1:14:05really is um kind of the the midwife of

1:14:09invention, right? It it's only when

1:14:12we're bored enough to allow ourselves to

1:14:15explore a new idea and not interrupt

1:14:18ourselves in the middle of that thought

1:14:19that we get to a place where we have a

1:14:21new idea, right? Or an inspiration or

1:14:24something that we want to move toward or

1:14:26even know what we want to move toward.

1:14:28You know, what is it that I really do

1:14:30like to do? like what actually gives me

1:14:33deep joy. And we can't know those things

1:14:35if we're constantly distracting

1:14:36ourselves and never allowing ourselves

1:14:38to be bored.

1:14:39>> It feels almost like boredom is when

1:14:41you're probably in homeostasis.

1:14:44You and I and you just gave me a little

1:14:46bit of an insight because I have no

1:14:47problem taking a walk because I find it

1:14:50visually stunning in nature and the dogs

1:14:52are running around and I'm good about,

1:14:54you know, not looking at my phone at

1:14:56all, but I cannot stretch to save my

1:14:59life. I literally [laughter] roll out a

1:15:00mat and I get down and I'm like, "Okay,

1:15:03we're done." Like my my my brain is

1:15:06like, "Ping pong, ping pong, ping." And

1:15:07so I'm realizing that's an area where I

1:15:11could

1:15:13step on the pain intentionally and start

1:15:16to build a bit of tolerance there that

1:15:20would probably bring more happiness into

1:15:22my life. Dr. Lumpy, if you could speak

1:15:25directly to the person listening, if

1:15:27they take just one action out of

1:15:30everything that you have taught us

1:15:31today, what do you think the most

1:15:33important thing to do is?

1:15:35>> I think the most important thing is just

1:15:38to recognize

1:15:41how resilient we actually are

1:15:44>> and how we really are wired

1:15:48for pain

1:15:50and lean into it. Not not in a way again

1:15:54that's harmful like we're not talking

1:15:56about overex exercising, right? Like

1:15:57people can get addicted to exercise,

1:15:59>> but just just recognizing that we we can

1:16:02do these hard things and in the process

1:16:06reset our reward pathways and that

1:16:09slowly over time things will get better.

1:16:11>> Oh my gosh, I I learned so much for you

1:16:13today. I'm so excited. The connection

1:16:16between intentional moments of

1:16:18discomfort and pain and the hard things

1:16:20that you need to do

1:16:21>> and your happiness.

1:16:23>> Yes.

1:16:23>> And resetting your dopamine. This is and

1:16:25getting more motivate. I mean, how cool

1:16:27is this?

1:16:29It's so cool. And it makes me feel this

1:16:34sense of urgency

1:16:36>> around boundaries with behavior.

1:16:39>> Yes. and devices

1:16:41>> or substances,

1:16:43>> right,

1:16:43>> that you feel the grip around. And I

1:16:47also feel so encouraged and I know you

1:16:49do too as you're listening about the

1:16:51fact that you're wired to do this.

1:16:53>> Yes.

1:16:54>> And your brain and your happiness and

1:16:55your heart and your body, they are dying

1:16:57for you to wake up and start doing this

1:17:00and moving toward these moments of

1:17:02intentional discomfort. That's the

1:17:04secret.

1:17:04>> Yeah.

1:17:05>> That's the detox.

1:17:06>> That's the dopamine reset.

1:17:08>> That's it. I love that.

1:17:09>> Good.

1:17:10>> Dr. Lumpky, what are your parting words?

1:17:12>> I mean, we're all in this together. You

1:17:14know, I think everybody is struggling

1:17:17with this in some shape or form. Um,

1:17:19it's the world that we live in now. Um,

1:17:22but I I have a lot of optimism that

1:17:26through talking about it, kind of owning

1:17:28it, and collectively problem solving,

1:17:32um, we can get to a better place.

1:17:34>> Well, I already feel like I'm in a

1:17:35better place thanks on everything.

1:17:37thanks to everything you taught us

1:17:38today. So, you know, Dr. Lumpy, thank

1:17:40you. Thank you. Thank you for the work

1:17:41that you do. Thank you for the genius

1:17:45that you have in explaining this in a

1:17:48way so that we can grasp it and

1:17:49understand the power in what you just

1:17:52taught us. I I am so grateful that you

1:17:54hopped on a plane. I'm grateful that

1:17:55you're doing the work that you do. So,

1:17:58don't stop. Thank you. Thank you. Thank

1:17:59you.

1:18:00>> Thanks, M.

1:18:00>> You're welcome. And I also want to thank

1:18:02you. Thank you for being interested in

1:18:05learning more about how your brain and

1:18:07your body works and learning about

1:18:10dopamine. This was so cool. I know you

1:18:12probably loved it as much as I did.

1:18:13Thank you for sharing it with people

1:18:14that you care about. I cannot wait to

1:18:16send this to my kids, to everybody that

1:18:18I care about. I know you feel the same.

1:18:20And one more thing, in case no one else

1:18:22tells you, as your friend, I want to be

1:18:24sure to tell you I love you. I love that

1:18:26you're interested in learning, that

1:18:28you're interested in science, that

1:18:29you're interested in doing better, and I

1:18:32believe in your ability to create a

1:18:33better life because you're listening to

1:18:36things like this and learning. [music]

1:18:38All righty, I will see you in the very

1:18:40next episode. I'll be there to welcome

1:18:41you in the moment you hit play. And

1:18:43thank you for watching this all the way

1:18:45to the end. I got so much out of this

1:18:47one. [music] Thank you also for sharing

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