The world building playbook for brands

0:00World building is one of the most

0:01important concepts in modern marketing

0:03because the world of identity and media

0:05has radically changed over the last

0:07decade. [music] Marketing used to assume

0:08a communication between the buyer and

0:11the seller, which made sense for a

0:12single transaction. But increasingly,

0:14products [music] are sold on identity.

0:16Worldbuing treats everyone like they're

0:18a character in a brand's movie. [music]

0:20And that's just not you viewing that

0:22brand's film. You're a participant in

0:24it. We're all actors in their world.

0:25We're using their props. We're shaping

0:27what that story looks like. It's [music]

0:29fun, it's compelling, and it works. But

0:32how do you actually do this? So, in this

0:34video, Scott and I are going to go

0:35through brand examples, principles from

0:38both brand building and from film to

0:40share the process, share examples, share

0:42things that we've worked on and things

0:43we respect that can help you really

0:44understand world building. Let's lock

0:46in. So, when we talk about world

0:47building, there's a brand that never

0:48ceases to come up and that brand is

0:50vacation. And so, I know you have a

0:52relationship there. You understand the

0:54brand. Talk to me a bit about that.

0:55What's your history with them? And let's

0:56dive into it. I'm very fortunate to be

0:59an adviser and an investor in vacation

1:01which is how I got to know them. Um and

1:03even before then was a fan.

1:05>> What struck me from the beginning is uh

1:07is the setting right it is it's a world

1:09and I believe that that concept of

1:10setting is important to understand in

1:12context of world building. Yeah. What

1:14are your thoughts there? What do you

1:15think of that setting they've built

1:16>> to understand the setting of vacation?

1:18Let's understand the psychology first of

1:21the category. Right. So sunscreen,

1:23right? That was that was one of their

1:25first products and that's what the brand

1:27is known for. And sunscreen has changed

1:29a lot over the last 50 years.

1:31>> True. Yeah.

1:32>> So sunscreen used to be about fun in the

1:36sun. It used to be about play. It used

1:38to be about the beach. It used to be

1:39about togetherness. Kind of having a

1:41wild time. And then sunscreen became

1:44about health and safety. And it became

1:47clinical. It became about protection, UV

1:50radiation, the fear and the efficacy,

1:53right? That all took over the sunscreen

1:55category. And then like so many

1:57categories, it was upgraded and brands

2:00traded up into beauty. So, how do you

2:02make the package smaller? How do you

2:03make the margins bigger? How do you sell

2:05it in more and more fancy doors? and how

2:07do you put it in a really slick looking

2:09package that almost becomes part of your

2:12skinincare routine versus going out into

2:14the wild and having fun in the sun and

2:16vacation asked well what would it look

2:19like to make sunscreen fun again and

2:22represent that fun in the sun and so the

2:24world of vacation the setting that

2:26they've built is to transport you to the

2:28time when sunscreen was about having fun

2:32and so they made a whole bunch of

2:34creative decisions to transport port you

2:37to that setting visually, aesthetically

2:39with photographs. It lives in this kind

2:42of dreamlike world from the late '7s to

2:46the late8s where there was club med and

2:50digital cameras weren't something that

2:52everyone carried around. Cameras were

2:53something you take on vacation and you'd

2:55shoot a lot of photos where you wanted

2:57to have memories. And so the brand world

2:59of vacation is very much rooted in

3:01vacation photography from middle-class

3:04Americans that are going down to the

3:06Caribbean or down to the Gulf Coast,

3:08right? Or hanging out in San Diego. One

3:10of my favorite thinkers, investors,

3:12Charlie Mer has this quote, take

3:14something and take it seriously. And

3:16world building is all about taking it

3:18really seriously.

3:19>> They took it extremely seriously. So,

3:21you could take something and say, "Okay,

3:22well, we're going to we're going to use

3:24a little bit of inspiration from

3:26packaging in the '7s or the '8s, but of

3:29course, like we're going to have a

3:30modern website and we're going to, you

3:32know, print the packing slip with a

3:34normal font or really just think through

3:36one element of it." But what vacation

3:38does is no, no, no, how do we take this

3:40to an 11 out of 10 in in terms of

3:43transportive world building? And so, for

3:45instance, one of the ways they did that

3:47was they found someone's Flickr profile,

3:50a uh a dad who had taken photos of his

3:54family on vacation through the 80s and

3:57'9s and happened to scan them and upload

4:00them to Flickr. And they ended up

4:02licensing that material, that

4:04photography, so that they weren't just

4:06using AI or trying to recreate, you

4:08know, slick photo shoots, but origin of

4:10the brand. They said, "How do we

4:12actually take this family that had

4:13documented their vacations and make that

4:16part of our lore and build our visuals

4:18around that?" So, they had this whole

4:19mosaic of visual material to work from

4:23and layer on.

4:24>> And I love that uh that idea of taking

4:26it seriously across everything is really

4:28important. I remember one of the most

4:29interesting things I felt they did was

4:31when they launched in Target, you saw

4:32all even the Target advertisements still

4:34lived 100% within that world. Taking

4:36something that seriously is something so

4:37few brands are like willing to

4:38participate in. I feel like that's

4:39what's required to build as we're

4:41talking about.

4:41>> Exactly. Because in a movie, you have

4:43great actors who are character actors or

4:45method actors, right? Method actors,

4:48they don't break character when the

4:50director says cut. They keep it going

4:52and they commit to the bit. And

4:53worldbuilding brands commit to the bit.

4:56>> I agree. And I like uh the example of

4:58pulling from that Flickr account is a

4:59good example. This idea of citizens of a

5:01brand's world. Okay, we are whether

5:03we're a consumer, whether it's an

5:04influencer, whether it's a founder,

5:06member of the brand, there are people

5:07that exist within that. I would love to

5:09hear your thoughts on that concept.

5:10>> Well, traditional brands will grow by

5:12distribution. They'll grow by promotion.

5:15Worldbuilding brands build by

5:17initiation. They grow through inviting

5:19people to be members of that story and

5:23members of cast members of that movie.

5:25And so to use vacation as an example

5:27again, they made a really important

5:29creative choice at the very beginning

5:31around their email list because when you

5:33sign up for a brand's email list, you

5:35get an email that says, "Are you sure

5:36you want to opt into what might be years

5:38and years of spam in the future

5:39>> 15% off?" Yeah, exactly.

5:41>> And so what vacation did was, you know,

5:43instead of subscribe to our email list,

5:45they said, "Well, do you want to be a

5:47junior executive in the vacation

5:49corporation?" And if you want to be a

5:51junior executive in the vacation

5:52corporation, sign up for your summer job

5:55here. You put your email in, put your

5:57name in, and not only do you get an

5:58email saying you're on the list, but you

6:00got a business card, an image, a JPEG of

6:03a business card that had a randomly

6:06determined title of your functional role

6:09as an executive in the vacation

6:11corporation. So, I'm the head of

6:13nautical matters. Some people are shrimp

6:16boat captain architects. other ones are

6:19inflatable pool toy mechanics. And so

6:22everyone has this kind of mad lib title

6:26of what they exist in the in the

6:28vacation story. And so that gives people

6:31now permission to play the role even

6:33further. So you'll find people

6:35commenting on their LinkedIn posts about

6:37well as the junior executive responsible

6:40for my Thai concoctions, I for one am

6:43really happy with this new product

6:45introduction. And on the other hand, in

6:47terms of committing to the bit,

6:48vacation, they don't just communicate

6:51like a brand in the normal world. They

6:53very much tongue-in-cheek on a 10 out of

6:5510 basis communicate as the quote world

6:58famous vacation corporation. And they

7:01exist at a time in the 80s when

7:04corporate was cool, right? The Patrick

7:06Baitman uh calling card and the the the

7:10rise and the ascent of the Yepy. Since

7:12then, corporate isn't cool anymore.

7:14People don't want to work in offices.

7:16They don't want to work in cubicles,

7:17right? It's all counterculture.

7:19Everyone's got their side hustle. The

7:21vacation again transport you back to a

7:23world where the HR department wasn't

7:25trying to be cool and hip and they're

7:27communicating in very technical

7:29corporate language that becomes

7:32highensity. It becomes funny because at

7:34the end of the day, you have these two

7:36polar opposites. a very serious buttoned

7:39up formal corporation that is all about

7:43fun in the sun.

7:44>> I think uh from brands often look at

7:46something like vacation and they go

7:47there's no way we could build that we

7:48couldn't go all in. They've already

7:49taken that '8s idea and I think one of

7:51the first exercises is just looking at

7:53that vernacular right what that exercise

7:55the first email does is it points you

7:56into all the words that build the brands

7:58shrimp captain pool toys etc. I feel

8:00like almost any niche can be in that. I

8:02look at um my my friends at Air did

8:05something similar like a generator. You

8:06could put your picture in, it would give

8:07you a meme, but it was in their

8:08language. All the language of creative

8:10direction and people that are like

8:11overly online or have that ambiguous

8:13income job, etc. because that's a lot of

8:15their uh their actual like consumer base

8:17is in these sort of ambiguous creative

8:19jobs. I do think that like one of those

8:21exercises just going through every one

8:23of these like ideas and concepts and

8:25words behind it and defining those words

8:27for a brand is like so much more

8:28important than whatever's in the brand

8:30guide, right? The quote unquote. It's

8:31like what do we really think about that?

8:33How do we really look at that? And you

8:35to segue this a bit when people go,

8:36"Okay, well, how do I find inspiration?

8:38How do I actually hunt that down? How do

8:39I begin to have it from from a brand?"

8:40All this is really just taking these

8:42principles from film, right? Like the

8:44movie uh analogy is a good one because

8:46it's so accurate. It's also where we

8:47draw a lot from. I'd be curious um like

8:50to talk about a bit about where those

8:51rootings in world building come from

8:53when it comes to movies, film and

8:54action.

8:55>> Yeah. Well, world building comes from

8:58cinema and cinema is this beautiful rich

9:02visual auditory kind of social construct

9:05that's all around story. And we'll talk

9:07about story, but I think one of the best

9:09worldbuilders in cinema, not the first,

9:11but I think one of the most beloved and

9:13one of the most current is Wes Anderson.

9:15Of course, he's really famous for his

9:16world building. And so as an example

9:19here, my favorite Wes Anderson film is

9:22Grand Budapest Hotel. Uh Grand Budapest

9:24Hotel is a a masterwork in so many

9:28different ways. And so the question for

9:29us today is well, what separates simply

9:32good art direction, right? Like you'll

9:35see in a film like The Substance from

9:37World building. And what what Wes

9:40Anderson does is borrow a lot from

9:44children's literature and different

9:46mechanisms where he goes beyond simply

9:49the idea of setting to think about

9:51institutions. Okay?

9:52>> So he shows institutions in his films.

9:55In the case of uh Moonrise Kingdom, it's

9:58the khaki scouts, not the Boy Scouts.

10:01And that that little kind of concession

10:03there of taking something from the

10:05normal world, right, the world that we

10:07all live in, like the Boy Scouts, and

10:08just tweaking it a little bit and making

10:10a slightly fictionalized version of it

10:12makes it just enough real, but also just

10:15enough kind of fantasy to really work in

10:16a worldbuing setting. So, if we take

10:18Grand Budapest Hotel for example,

10:20there's a um a a fictional country

10:24called Zabrovka. And Zabrovka is like

10:27this amalgamation of an Alpine central

10:30European country. It's part of the

10:33Austrohungarian Empire. It's a little

10:35bit of the Czech Republic. It's a little

10:37bit of Austria. It's a little bit of

10:39Hungary. Uh and it's an imagined

10:41institution, right? This idea of that

10:43part of Europe at the time. And then you

10:45take the Grand Budapest Hotel itself.

10:48There are these imperial hotels that

10:50were built in kind of spa towns in that

10:53empire. And you know as soon as you see

10:56it that this institution existed for the

10:59film, it's going to exist after the

11:01film. And then institutions within that

11:03like Mendele's Bakery, right? The story

11:06bakery that takes place in it or uh

11:08instead of the SS, it's the zigzag, the

11:12zz, right? We're sort of just mirroring

11:15that little icon that goes on the

11:17soldiers um gle. So these are things

11:21that build story for for Wes Anderson

11:23these films. The other thing that he

11:25does is the ability to go really really

11:28tight on props. So every object is a

11:32representation of this world when you

11:34zoom in on it really quickly. Whether

11:36it's a matchbook, whether it's a menu

11:38item, it has all the details of that

11:41world that allow you to place yourself

11:43in it. And I think that's an important

11:45kind of item for brand building because

11:47when you are a brand building or when

11:49you're a world building brand, you

11:51create essentially props in this movie

11:53that you're creating and you've got to

11:54pay attention to those little

11:55>> and they don't often like don't take

11:56them seriously enough, right? There's

11:58just, you know, oh, it's the average,

11:59it's your koozie, it's your holder, and

12:00people talk about merch, but there's a

12:02real conversation around that. I mean,

12:04uh, Palunteer, for better or for worse,

12:05has, uh, gotten a significant amount of

12:07conversation around releasing a French

12:09chore coat, a street wear drop, but

12:11they're building artifacts, right? And I

12:12I can I like the idea of artifacts from

12:14a film as the same as artifacts of a

12:16brand, but they're almost more important

12:17because you have so few actual touch. If

12:20you're going to spend the $2 or put have

12:21the website like vacation does, it's

12:23important.

12:23>> Yeah. The artifacts and the totems,

12:26right? The like the design to the extent

12:29that every single object, every detail

12:31of it, right? Like this kind of baroque

12:34ornate 80s down to the gold foil

12:38reflectivity which is is is go, right?

12:41and over the top, but that's the point

12:44because it fits into that world.

12:45>> And you even see that even you go into

12:46the Sephora merchandising and you'll see

12:48the same thing or, you know, Ulta,

12:50wherever they are, you'll see like every

12:51one of those displays as an extension. I

12:53love that a lot about what Vacation's

12:54done.

12:54>> Extrapolating this to any company,

12:56right? Like product companies, consumers

12:58companies work great, but really any

13:00type of company is you've got to

13:01remember that human beings make meaning

13:04and organize everything through stories.

13:07We are the only species do this is

13:10understand and have the logic that

13:12defines our life is through stories. Not

13:14facts, not evidence or data but stories

13:18because stories is how we make sense of

13:21things like morality and identity uh and

13:25challenge and relationships. And so what

13:29brands do is they hijack the neural

13:31circuitry that was developed for human

13:33beings to relate to each other with

13:35stories and translate it into what

13:37they're trying to achieve with their

13:39brand and their growth. And what a story

13:41is in the most fundamental level is a

13:45character, a hero who encounters a

13:48crisis or a challenge and through that

13:50challenge becomes transformed to become

13:53a better version of themselves.

13:55>> Hero's journey.

13:55>> The hero's journey. And what brands do

13:58is they sell a better version of

14:00yourself, a better version of the hero.

14:02And so the question is how are you

14:04transformed through this journey? And

14:06what worldbuilding brands do is they put

14:09you as most of the time the hero in that

14:12journey and they show an incredible

14:15level of cinematic detail that is highly

14:19evocative and plays on your imagination

14:21of what do I look and feel like when I'm

14:24transformed by this product. So today,

14:26we're going to add a real skill to your

14:28toolkit in 120 seconds. Brought to you

14:30by Framer. Every time a consumer clicks

14:32on an ad or goes to download your ebook

14:34or to book a call on your website,

14:36they're hitting a funnel, landing page,

14:37and pages after that. And most suck.

14:39They're not building your brand's world.

14:41One of the highest value skills you can

14:43do as a creative is to be able to

14:44improve this funnel to build it because

14:46that drives more sales, more email subs,

14:49and when you can quantify the work, you

14:50get paid more for it. Framer is a

14:52complete website platform and I love it

14:53for quickly being able to spin up brand

14:55assets like this especially for software

14:57services and personal brand sites. And

14:59today I want to talk about the new frame

15:00agents and the workflow to create new

15:02sites and sections of sites. So here

15:04this entire site that you see was

15:06generated by framework agents. I gave it

15:08a reference bento style layout like

15:09this. Some of my links and imagery and a

15:11picture of myself to create and it made

15:13this for me. I did not design anything.

15:15I was able to go in and edit those call

15:17to actions. And what I just asked for,

15:19you can see here on the right, was for

15:20it to give me a placeholder section for

15:22testimonials and for FAQ. And it gives

15:24it to me in mobile and on desktop. I can

15:27preview it right here. I've asked for

15:29special effects for the rollovers. You

15:31can adjust. I'm doing all of this.

15:33Everything you see here was created in

15:34chat with framer agents. And all this

15:37matches the design style of my website

15:39overall. So if you're building this, you

15:41want to start with a landing page. The

15:43sections you want to call out to have

15:44are an aggressive title with a subtitle.

15:46anchor that in your customer painoint,

15:47your core section, the header you saw

15:49there, where you can put the value

15:50propositions of what you're trying to

15:51get. Ideally, a video about the product

15:53offer if you have one, and the ability

15:54to sign up or act on the offer right

15:56there, the way you saw with my form. And

15:58ideally, all that is above the fold.

15:59They see that right when they land on

16:01the website. And then below it, you can

16:02get into testimonials and proof points,

16:04dive into the top features, more video

16:06or graphic examples, UGC testimonials,

16:09big call to action to act now, and then

16:10a frequently asked question section to

16:12really get to any reason they might have

16:14an objection. That's a great landing

16:15page structure to use. But then if

16:17you're booking a call or even someone

16:18buys something from there, the

16:19confirmation page they get is ultra

16:21important because it can radically

16:22increase the chance of conversion on a

16:24call or even upsell another product. I'd

16:25be putting a personal video from the CEO

16:27or a freelancer there along with a

16:29personal message and what they can

16:30expect next. Doesn't have to be

16:31high-res. It can just be a yap. But

16:32literally take that outline for this

16:34page, drop it into framer with the

16:35agents and ask it to make those sections

16:37with placeholder copy you can update or

16:39ask it to generate initial copy or bring

16:40in copy that you've already done and

16:42have it make the complete site. You can

16:43polish your drafts, refine your design.

16:45I started that whole bento layout just

16:47from a screenshot of a similar site. And

16:49ask for little world building elements.

16:50They go a long way. Photos or design

16:52that tie to your social media, video

16:54embeds, stickers with your logo

16:55elements, websites or extensions of your

16:57brand story. And you can just ask for

16:58them in chat with Framer. Ship your

17:00sites faster with Framer today and use

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17:04annual plan. Link is in the description.

17:06>> This is actually a good time to bring up

17:08your background. My worldbuing resume

17:10starts with Sir Kenszington's which is

17:12the company that I founded and what Sir

17:15Kensington's was was reimagining

17:17condiments. So we actually started the

17:19brand and the world before we even made

17:22the first product. And the way it

17:24started was the idea that there are so

17:26many different types of mustards out

17:28there and there's only one type of

17:30ketchup. And the type of ketchup that's

17:32out there is obviously dominated by

17:34Hind. And then every other brand is in

17:36the same package with the same product

17:38inside and the same texture. And it's

17:41ubiquitous, but it's not really saying

17:42anything interesting. But at the same

17:43time, ketchup as an absolute strangle

17:46hold on the American refrigerator,

17:48right? It's in like 98% of American

17:50refrigerators. And Hines is a is a is a

17:53call brand, right, that everyone knows,

17:55almost like a Kleenex. Um, and so we

17:58realized that if we were to just simply

18:00make a better product, we would fail

18:02because it wouldn't capture anyone's

18:03attention. So we said, let's do the

18:05exact opposite of Hines, right? If Hines

18:07is going to be in plastic, we're going

18:09to start in glass. If Hines is

18:11indiscriminately squeezed, we are going

18:13to be scooped like a high-end European

18:16>> I love that dichotomy. Look at what's

18:18happening in the market. Okay, how do we

18:19elevate or do the opposite? It's a great

18:21way to look at things.

18:21>> Do the opposite. And and if Hines is

18:24Americana and synonymous with the

18:26roadside diner and fast food and like

18:28really central to America, well, what's

18:30the opposite of that?

18:31>> Let's be English, right? And how do we

18:34be English? Well, we needed to create a

18:38a lore that basically was drafting off

18:41of heritage that we were inventing cuz

18:44we didn't have heritage. The product was

18:46brand new. We were kids in college at

18:47the time.

18:48>> You guys weren't in the

18:49>> witch and start chefs or anything like

18:51that. And so we committed to the bit and

18:54we built a a a brand of 11 out of 10

18:58intensity on that method acting. So we

19:00created this elaborate story before we

19:03even made our first jar of ketchup. Sir

19:05Kensington himself went to Cambridge for

19:08undergrad and Oxford for graduate school

19:10and he did a treatise for the queen in

19:14Constantinople on Ionian chutneys and

19:17spice sauces and worked among the spice

19:19traders of the Bosphorus. He returns to

19:21England knowing that he cannot alone

19:24make sauces as a way to make his fortune

19:26and so he has the brilliant idea who is

19:29insuring the insurance companies. I'm

19:31going to start the first reinsurance

19:33company to ensure insurance companies in

19:35this sort of loop. Uh he does very

19:38financially well on that. And of course

19:39he doesn't just retire and kick back. He

19:41says, "I'm going to gather the greatest

19:44creative minds in Europe create a salon

19:46series." He hosts salons at his country

19:48estate. In one of these salons,

19:51Katherine the Great of Russia is in

19:52attendance. The emperor of Japan has

19:55also made the trip across the ocean and

19:57has brought a cut of Kobe. hitherto

20:00never tasted in United Kingdom. And of

20:03course, Katherine the Great of Russia

20:04says, "Well, I would like to try this

20:06coobe beef. Do you have any ketchup to

20:08pair it with?" Sir Kensington thinking

20:09to himself, "I can't serve a Zarus high

20:12fructose corn syrup and something that I

20:13just bought at the local supermarket. I

20:15need to make something better." So, he

20:16goes in the kitchen, pulls the tomatoes

20:18together, pulls the raw sugar, finds a

20:20malt vinegar, and concocts on the spot

20:23Sir Kenzing's ketchup for her to try.

20:25>> I love that the lore is just off the top

20:26of the head. Let's go. Yeah.

20:27>> And it changes every time I tell it. I

20:29think that what's really important here

20:31is what you're hearing is play. This was

20:33not we need to turn the business around.

20:35This was not we need to get in a

20:36whiteboard and figure out what Q2 is

20:38going to look like. We had no idea that

20:40this would actually ever be a business.

20:41We were in play because storytelling and

20:43world building is play. And you've got

20:45to be able to get yourself in that

20:46mental space.

20:47>> And I think um I'm I'm curious how that

20:48permeated culture of the company

20:50>> to start like with that culture. We did

20:52create this this this lore and almost

20:55these artifacts if you will. And so, for

20:57instance, when we launched, we made we

20:59worked with a a a wonderful artist in

21:02New York um named Eric Adolfson to

21:04sketch and draw all of the various

21:08vessels that Sir Kensington's attempted

21:10before, you know, uh stabilizing on this

21:13ketchup jar and all of the different

21:15circumstances that you could use the

21:17condiment in, right? This really deep

21:19level of detail. And for the for the

21:21company culture, um, we really thought

21:24about the mission to bring integrity and

21:27charm, ordinary and overlooked. And

21:29you'll see here, we gave everyone this

21:32this steel tablet, right? Again, the

21:35sort of lore almost like a set of

21:37commandments,

21:38>> not not a 4x6 card, you know, a steel

21:40tablet,

21:41>> something that has real physicality to

21:43it. And the language that had this

21:45internal voice and consistency. So,

21:48integrity and charm, right? These are

21:50words that have a kind of a subtle

21:53English almost aristocratic feel to

21:56them, like they f sound like they came

21:57out of eaten. And one of the other great

22:00rules of of branding is humanize. Always

22:03humanize. And so, in the character of

22:06Sir Kensington, you have the the

22:08personification of integrity and charm.

22:11And you have integrity and charm as the

22:13watchwords in our mission. And then

22:14beyond that, culturally, we as the team

22:17members were the acolytes and the

22:20students of Sir Kensington. And so when

22:22we would go to a trade show or when we

22:24would go on a sales call, I had a

22:26mustache for seven years of my life just

22:28as Sir Kensington did. And we would wear

22:30suits, dark suits with ties because take

22:34something and take it seriously, right?

22:36And I think if I have one regret, it's I

22:38didn't take it too seriously. We didn't

22:39take it seriously for long enough.

22:40>> Yeah. I think that's what's interesting

22:41is like how do you grow with that? you

22:43know, someone like vacation is just

22:44embodied for so long. As you begin to

22:46get a company and you have outside sales

22:48reps and oh, we now we're in Australia

22:49and they're like, how do you kind of

22:50keep that going? I think is uh is yeah

22:52interesting challenge.

22:53>> Yeah. And I think that's the challenge

22:54of the artist, right? That's the

22:56challenge of the artist. I like to use

22:57this model that, you know, an artist is

23:00known for expressing themselves and

23:03telling their story with no definition

23:05of success beyond that. It's not about

23:07how how much you sell, right? It's not

23:09about how you change the world. It's

23:11really about self-expression. And then

23:12on the very very end of that you have a

23:14hack, right? Someone who is only doing

23:17something as a jo o someone who's doing

23:19something simply to solve a problem. And

23:21in the middle you have craft. A craft

23:24person is expressing themselves and

23:26they're putting in the care of an artist

23:28but they're delivering the function of a

23:30job to be done. And so that's the

23:32question is how do you find the right

23:34balance of craft? because you've seen

23:37and we've all seen so many brands that

23:39are these beautiful artistic expressions

23:41that are dedicated to these things, but

23:43the commercial element, the job they're

23:45doing for the customer isn't satisfied.

23:47Exactly.

23:47>> And the story isn't legible, right? And

23:49then we also see lots of products that

23:51are there to make a buck, right, and

23:54check all the boxes and those don't last

23:56either. And so the question is, how do

23:58you figure out what do you listen to?

24:00Because it is important, right, to talk

24:02about your organic bonafides. It is

24:05important to make sure that you put the

24:06right features and benefits on your

24:08Amazon page for all the different kind

24:10of practical matters of someone buying

24:12ketchup online, right? And so I think if

24:15anything we were pushed a little bit

24:17more towards the blander side of things.

24:19If I were to go back in time, we would

24:21have committed to the bit a little bit

24:22harder.

24:22>> And I love that it was rooted in the

24:24shelf, right? Uh I think that's a great

24:26thing for anyone working on something

24:28like this to look at is like what

24:29actually happens on the shelf in your

24:30category. So, even with sunscreen, like

24:32you look at people that are thriving in

24:33sunscreen, look at someone like Kosas

24:35who took uh okay, it's it's skincare and

24:37it's sunscreen at the same time. It's

24:38Sunbum, they're living inside a surf.

24:40It's Super Goop, they've gone all in on

24:41the ingredients. It's vacation, they've

24:43gone on the lifestyle. All those brands

24:45are disruptors in their space because

24:46they looked at a boring shelf and said,

24:48"We have an angle." Same thing with what

24:50you talked about in food. And a shelf

24:52can mean a physical shelf if you're

24:53actually in retail, but also if it's

24:55look, if it's AP software, it's just you

24:57how do you have a perspective inside

24:59what those other ones are are looking at

25:01is more tech enabled? What world can you

25:02build? And I think that rooting whatever

25:04world you build inside a position

25:06saying, hey, we're going to be the

25:08opposite of the diner ketchup is an

25:10important way to actually tie it to that

25:12the jo end, the value end, the the list

25:14on the Amazon.

25:15>> Yes. And I think one one way to do that

25:18and and what we did was recognize that

25:20because Newan knew who we were, we

25:22needed something that was so weird and

25:24different on shelf that someone would

25:25have to do a double take.

25:26>> Yeah. It was impactful. I remember that

25:28was my like initial experience with

25:29this. You're like, "Wait, you got what?"

25:30And it cost how much? And that thing and

25:32it's that's a great there's very little

25:34conversations you have around ketchup,

25:35right? And to be seen is to be sold. And

25:38so that similarly whether it is um you

25:42know vacation sunscreen or sir

25:44Kensington's going back to the Wes

25:46Anderson aesthetic of the matchbook

25:48right and the dedication to detail. It's

25:51when you are creating a product that is

25:52going to sit on shelf. How do you make

25:54it abundantly clear that this is a prop

25:57that belongs in a different world and

26:00the world that you've built? And then

26:01when you use the prop, what I love most

26:02about this is like I've pulled this out

26:03of a beach bag and people comment on it.

26:05Whether they know the brand, someone

26:06knows the brand like, "Oh, is that

26:07vacation?" If they don't know the brand,

26:09they're like, "Oh, is that like some

26:10aloha like back in the day like Hawaii?"

26:12And then it's immediately you are the

26:14owner of the artifact. You're in that

26:16brand film like we talked about before.

26:18And it comes and it's just as simple as

26:19a package.

26:20>> You are you are initiated and you are

26:21now a junior executive in the Asian

26:23Corporation.

26:25>> Um,

26:26>> so the prop the prop attitude is really

26:28important. And I think what's

26:29interesting is when you see this go even

26:30further, right? And so I want to talk

26:32about Ralph Lauren because they're

26:34they've built now many Wolves, right?

26:36You see a brand that has gone from they

26:38they stand for so many things for the

26:39American West, they stand for the Ivy

26:41League, they're the Olympic

26:42representative of America, there's

26:44purple label subbrands. And so the

26:47brands actually build this out so much

26:49into uh and you see it in everything

26:51from cafes to clothing. That's where it

26:53takes on almost a new life of its own. I

26:55have a great appreciation for those

26:56brands. Uh, and I guess I'm I'm curious

26:58what are like how do you feel about that

27:00brand? How do you feel about actually

27:01extending that world beyond? You know,

27:03you built a brand in a category. If you

27:05had to build greater than that, what's

27:06the ideas and playbook there?

27:08>> Yeah. Well, clothing and apparel and

27:10fashion is such rich territory for this

27:13because clothing is is our costume,

27:16right? It's the number one way where we

27:18can immediately express our identity to

27:20friends and strangers and how people see

27:23us and it gives us the confidence or the

27:25attitude for what we want to project,

27:28right? And so costume is like quite

27:30literally part of the cinematic

27:32experience. And I think especially call

27:35it like in an urban setting, right? in a

27:38city. When you walk out of your

27:39apartment, no matter what your apartment

27:41looks like, if you're in New York City,

27:42you know, how small it is, how grungy it

27:44is, when you go outside, you become part

27:47of the city, right? And you become

27:50characters in that city with this

27:51costume. And this, I think, goes back

27:53to, you know, the late 19th century

27:56France and kind of the um the the the

27:59development of this cosmopolitan culture

28:01and urban culture, right, through the

28:0220s and beyond. And so Ralph Lauren is

28:05of course a, you know, it's a it's a

28:06it's a storied and beautiful example

28:08that isn't just one world, but it's a

28:10world of worlds because Ralph Lauren has

28:14the New England prep and it also has the

28:17the rugged wild west. And where and why

28:20I think this works going back to the

28:22idea of the transformed individual,

28:24right? And what you become through the

28:26the transformation of participating and

28:28enrolling in a brand is about fantasy.

28:31and Ralph Lauren in their world of the

28:35prep aesthetic, it sells a fantasy of

28:38unearned privilege and elegance and

28:41being able to be included in any room,

28:44right? And when you think about going

28:47back to storytelling, fundamental human

28:50psychology and neurosircuitry, the most

28:52important thing that we can do every day

28:54is make sure that we are not severed

28:55from society and that we are not mocked,

28:58that we are included, that we are

28:59participating, that we will find a mate,

29:01that we will procreate, that we will be

29:03respected in the community. And when you

29:06draft off of waspy American culture that

29:09was at the top of society right at that

29:12time and all the tropes of that

29:14aesthetic, you can live into the fantasy

29:16of being high status in included and of

29:21having this unearned privilege that

29:23people fantasize about. Similarly, in

29:25the American West, right, is the other

29:26side of the country. It's a different

29:28fantasy, but it's a fantasy about

29:31freedom. It's a fantasy about being able

29:34to self-express in nature to some

29:37extent, but still connected and

29:39respected in society in kind of a

29:41maverick rugged way, an individualist

29:43way, where the prep aesthetic is all

29:45about a uh cohesive community and kind

29:49of a societal acceptance way. So,

29:52there's these different psychologies

29:53going on, but they all kind of

29:54fundamentally go back to the fantasy of

29:57identity and of social inclusion. And

30:00what's interesting is you would put

30:01those if we were in a vacuum and you

30:02were talking about the American West,

30:03we're talking about the Ivy League prep,

30:05it wouldn't make sense that they would

30:06live in one category, one world of

30:08worlds under a brand, but that

30:09throughine of Americana of that like

30:11ideal like uh is so kind of excellently

30:13executed throughout that brand. What

30:15what I find interesting, I want to dive

30:16into some of these worlds in particular

30:18is is like their appeal. So for

30:20instance, like the Western world, uh the

30:21idea of the Wild West, the idea of

30:23freedom, that's as big in Japan. And

30:24Japan has co-opted so much of they make

30:26better kind of Americana western wear

30:28than America does at this point. It's

30:30equally as fascinating from Australia to

30:32Europe. The concept of Texas. There's

30:34these ideas that are just so much bigger

30:36than the brand itself you can jump into.

30:37I feel oddly the same way we saw with

30:39whether it was Sporty and Rich

30:40immediately took that into a you know

30:42like a a modern female at the point in

30:44time when they were at their peak.

30:46There's all these little ways to kind of

30:47co-opt it. What what other worlds are

30:49there out there? What are those other

30:50things that you know people can tap

30:51into? You did that a bit with

30:52aristocracy. Uh, we've seen it with kind

30:54of 80s and nostalgia. I think it'd be

30:56cool to basically put some ideas out

30:58there for people that they could tap in.

31:00>> Yeah. I mean, I would say like it's kind

31:02of whatever you fantasize about and

31:04whatever has the depth of a world. I

31:06mean, let's take a let's take sort of a

31:08left turn here and talk about the brand

31:11Andre. Yeah. Call a brand. It's a

31:13company, right? And is a um a defense

31:17tech company, right? It's a new defense

31:19tech company started by the founder of

31:22Oculus. And most defense tech companies,

31:25right, they don't actually want to be

31:26seen by the outside world. Like United

31:29Technologies, what do they make? Bombs,

31:32[laughter] right? Like, and but and what

31:35Andrew does is Andrew has realized that

31:38wait a minute, there is a fantasy of

31:42American technological superiority that

31:45wasn't really being told. And when you

31:47have the rank and file members of the

31:49Pentagon and the government that now

31:51grew up on first person shooter video

31:54games and the world of video games and

31:56the the internet, then how do you build

31:59an aesthetic world for them, right? And

32:01so the choices that Andrew has made

32:03about how they design their products

32:05with like the matte black, the sans

32:08Sarah fonts, the art direction that they

32:11that they put in. They are selling a

32:13fantasy of American technological

32:16superiority that goes beyond the messy

32:21elements of the battlefield and the the

32:23the difficult procurement process of of

32:26of government contracting into this very

32:29pure world that people can fantasize

32:31about and and that relates to American

32:34pride.

32:34>> And even the artifacts you can buy the

32:36the metallic alloys, same thing they use

32:38to make whatever space inside a Game

32:40Boy.

32:41together. The mod retro in I think it's

32:44Titanium, the Andre edition mod retro is

32:47exactly that is we are going to pair

32:50this idea of a of a video game with

32:54ballistic missiles, right? And with this

32:57intelligent technology. And that's

32:59perfect for an era where we are now in

33:01point-and-click warfare, right? with the

33:04the drones and the technology that we

33:07have right now in the Gulf. Um it is

33:09point-and-click warfare that is directly

33:11related to that lore of video games.

33:13>> Well, it's also it's continuing a lore.

33:14Um people always look at oh well you

33:16have your United Industries or someone

33:17who can't talk about anything, but

33:18there's also a lot of lore inside

33:20infrastructure, science, government

33:22propaganda. You look at NASA and like

33:24the the the craziest brand guide ever

33:26and the most licensing possibly done

33:28that's done to get a it's HR. It's we're

33:31recruiting by getting people excited

33:32about science by putting these things

33:34out there that you can then treat as you

33:36know again artifacts. Uh and I think

33:38even with defense we look at skunk works

33:40and these things that kind of happened

33:41in the past they were more

33:42tongue-in-cheek and they just adapted

33:44that to to the modern age. But I do

33:45encourage you know whether you are a uh

33:47fan of the industrial world complex or

33:49not. The idea of looking at any single

33:51niche you look at, there is that way to

33:53attract people's excitement about it by

33:56finding a world that you know your your

33:58target industry loves those people are

33:59had you had some moments with. Like a

34:01game boy is a connection point to a uh

34:03like a a defense company is really about

34:05the kind of people that are who have had

34:07that childhood chose to pursue that into

34:09engineering want to connect all those

34:11dots together. It's built a world for

34:12them.

34:12>> I got another one for you. Let's go.

34:14I've been thinking about. So, a lot of a

34:16lot of ink has been spilled about the

34:18Japanese imagination of America and

34:20workware and denim and rockabilly,

34:22right? And what we're seeing now,

34:24especially recently, is the American

34:27imagination of Japan.

34:28>> Interesting.

34:29>> And so, if you think about obviously

34:31it's an Australian brand, but an Asop

34:33store, the interior of an Asop store is

34:36minimalist, but with organic materials

34:39and textures.

34:40>> It's a western interpretation of Japan.

34:41All that. Yeah. and or District Vision

34:44who just opened a shop a few blocks from

34:46here with that is very much inspired by

34:50Japanese minimalist design and with

34:52materials and plant life and lighting.

34:55Uh and then again this is a Japanese

34:57brand but it has taken hold in the west

34:59is Snow Peak. Yeah. Right. Snow Peak is

35:02a brand that represents not performance

35:04in nature or domination over nature, but

35:07a Japanese concept of coexistence with

35:10nature. And Snow Peak has the materials.

35:14They have a what they call, I think, a a

35:18campsite or a a a campland up in, you

35:21know, Washington State that that you can

35:23go to and visit as a physical place.

35:24They have stores and all of these these

35:27little artifacts that they make are

35:29beautifully mil and machined in that

35:32level of Japanese craft detail for the

35:34outdoors. And they play into the western

35:37fantasy of a simpler minimalistic life

35:41that has more that has less stuff but

35:43better stuff which is in the you know

35:45world of wash and teu and Amazon and

35:47Walmart. We have like too much stuff and

35:49we need to go back to those middle

35:51roots. I think uh I I think there's a

35:53lot of conversation around running

35:54brands like Satisfy etc. and not nearly

35:56enough around District Vision because I

35:57think District Vision is a fascinating

35:59brand and I'm a was a big kind of early

36:01consumer of it because they really have

36:02that mission and methodology kind of

36:04locked. It's for mindful athletes. It's

36:05based in like meditation practice at the

36:07beginning. Uh and you look at a lot of

36:09brands try to find how can I attach this

36:10to something bigger has more meaning in

36:12life. How do I make a mission statement

36:13mean something people actually care

36:15about? And they're a great example of a

36:16brand that really rooted it in that

36:18because not only is it just saying this

36:19is for mindful athletes, hey, here's the

36:21meditation thing you can purchase from

36:22us. Here's the program you can buy into.

36:24When you go on our brand trip, you're

36:26going to a center for, you know,

36:28establishing whatever it is about your

36:29your inner journey. There are very few

36:31examples of people really have that

36:32mission that's actually rooted in

36:33anything serious. I think they're

36:34they're a good one for

36:35>> Yeah. And where that I mean where that

36:37comes from and you know people talk

36:39about authenticity, a word that gets

36:41bandied about, right? Well, what does

36:42that mean? And art art and craft is a

36:46self-expression, right? And some of my

36:49favorite brands are self-expressions of

36:52founders and artists. And so, yeah, when

36:56you when we talk about how to

36:57practically apply these, it's not really

37:00going to work if it's not kind of deeply

37:02inside of you, right? So, I am an

37:04anglophile. I love to perform. So for me

37:08the sir Kensington character and the

37:11world was like living out a personal

37:13fantasy and a personal belief. Similarly

37:16like the two founders of district vision

37:18this is not something that they are like

37:20putting on a spreadsheet and saying what

37:21do we do next? It's this is an intuitive

37:24feel for them right and it is in some

37:25ways like the gift that they have to

37:27give. Um, similarly with vacation,

37:29right? It's about it is about community

37:31and is about taking kind of a world that

37:34the fun has been drained out of and

37:36figuring out like how do we inject fun

37:37back into this world and take it really

37:39seriously.

37:39>> If you want to get practical with this,

37:41uh, you had this idea called the hotel

37:42test. What is the hotel test?

37:44>> Well, the hotel test is if you could

37:46imagine your brand, whatever brand

37:48you're working on as a hotel. First of

37:50all, is it easy to imagine or is it hard

37:52to imagine? Right? Like if I want to

37:55imagine Hyundai as a hotel, I don't get

37:58a lot of detail.

37:59>> Zoho. Yeah.

38:00>> But if I want to imagine Ferrari as a

38:03hotel, I know exactly what that hotel

38:05looks and feels like, right? Great

38:07worldbuilding brands pass the hotel

38:09test. As a great exercise, I'd say, what

38:11is the hotel for your brand? When you

38:14walk into the lobby, what does it smell

38:16like? What does it look and feel like?

38:18When you're meet greeted at the front

38:19desk, how is the the attendant dressed?

38:23How do they greet you? What's the

38:25language that they use? When you go up

38:27to your room, what's the music that's

38:29playing in the elevator? What's waiting

38:31for you on your pillow? When you go into

38:32the bathroom, what type of soap is

38:34there? Right? And when you leave, what

38:36type of little trinket do they give you

38:38on the way out? You know, what does the

38:40key card look like? If you can build the

38:43details in the hotel test, then that's a

38:46great entree. into world building and

38:49even if it's not for like rebranding

38:51your entire company and rebranding your

38:53brand, treat it as a we're going to do a

38:55campaign around this. We're we're going

38:56to take we're going to take this hotel

38:58test and we're going to funnel into a

38:59campaign which is just exactly the same

39:02way that what artists do with album

39:04releases, right? Think about each Kanye

39:06album, right, has a different structure

39:10and look and feel. And sometimes it's

39:12transparent and sometimes it uses

39:14photography and sometimes it uses bright

39:16colors and sometimes it uses handwritten

39:19scroll.

39:19>> It signals an error.

39:20>> It signals an error, right? And so

39:22campaigns can be the exact same way.

39:24>> I like with the hotel test is okay.

39:26First you need to define it yourself.

39:27You need to understand what the brand

39:29stands for. And then it's how do you get

39:30your customer to be able to say that

39:32same answer back to you or them to be

39:33able to picture in the mind the way you

39:34and I were both able to picture a very

39:36similar Ferrari. Yeah. Uh, and I like to

39:38think of too in the influence world, uh,

39:40the idea of like the brand trip test I

39:42think is an interesting extension of

39:43that too because you want to define,

39:44okay, if you have all these experiences,

39:46but now who are the people if they were

39:47if they were on this trip, who would

39:48they be, what activities would they be

39:50doing? Like what would they be posting?

39:51Who would be viewing it? And would

39:53people care? And begin to build that

39:55out. And I could see um people use ramp

39:57as an example a lot because obviously

39:59they're a one of the few companies in a

40:00boring industry that's done some real

40:02world building but there's the ordinary

40:03there's a few that have kind of built

40:04outside of their niche and you can do

40:07this in anything whether you are doing

40:08that as a hedge fun whether you are

40:09doing that as venture capital whether

40:11you're doing as a microphone company I

40:13think there is the ability to conduct

40:14like both of those tests and think about

40:15what they say is a is a powerful vehicle

40:18um any parting thoughts that you want to

40:20leave anyone with

40:22>> take something and take it seriously

40:23commit to the bit and have fun with it.

40:25Absolutely. I appreciate you coming and

40:27talking through it and uh we will we'll

40:29link more information about Scott in the

40:31description. We'll cover all the world

40:32building below. I appreciate you guys

40:34sitting with us and walking through it.

40:35Thank you.